Just a few quick notes; I'll respond again later in this thread.

Most of the sources I knew of for "Wren's Egg" are either no longer in business, or no longer carry it. However, my references state that it is also known as "Dwarf Horticultural"; Rohrer Seeds carries it under that name, and is quite reasonable. I obtained it from Vermont Bean many years ago, and still have some saved seed from it... but it is over 10 years old.

"Goose" and "Ma Williams" appear to be either the same bean, or very similar. Been meaning to trial them side-by-side for many years (along with "Pumpkin Bean", also similar) but never get around to it. You can order "Goose" from Bill Best. He carries "Rose" as well.

"Brita's Foot Long" appears to have originated from Salt Spring Seeds / Canada; but they no longer ship to the U.S. To my knowledge, there are no commercial sources in the States. However, several SSE members (including myself) maintain it.

"Soissons Vert" is a French heirloom, and I have seen it offered in French seed sites... but again, there does not appear to be a U.S. commercial source. I obtained my seed from author/collector William Weaver.

Shelly beans are my longest running garden project, begun as a search for large-seeded / short-season beans that could substitute for limas (I love butterbeans). There were few shelly beans available then, so most of the beans I've collected have been heirlooms from SSE & forum trades. Fortunately, the resurgence of heirloom seed companies has made many heirloom shellies available, such as the "Borlottos".

There are many variations of the Horticultural beans; the Cranberry, Borlottos, Bird Egg, and October beans, just to name a few. I've collected quite a few of them, actually too many... I'll never be able to grow them all. If you would like to try one of them, Egganddart, contact me through my Member Page.

Thanks so much zeedman! Those are great places to start. There's a lot of info on Bill Best's site. I think it's going to take a while to get all this bean stuff straight, though, it's confusing.

For example, are horticultural beans synonymous with shelly beans? Or are there other shellies? It seems to me that cranberry, borlotto, and maybe Wren's Egg are very similar, at least by their description. Are they subtle variations of the same bean?

Another question: Why is there a distinction between shelly and dry beans? Is it because the taste / texture is good one way but not the other?

"...a search for large-seeded / short-season beans that could substitute for limas"

Does this mean that shellies mature earlier than limas?

This bean passion has been growing in me slowly for a while. I think it started in the 70's when I lived with an Italian family on a study-abroad program. Among the many wonders that came out of that experience was my love of "fagioli" (beans). Then a couple of years ago, on a lark, I grew limas in my garden. One winter I came across some dried seed I'd saved and cooked it. It was delicious, and it took me a while to figure out which bean I'd saved. When I realized it was the lima I was surprised. Then lately I've been cooking a lot of Indian recipes, which use a lot of legumes. I don't know how they translate, with names like chana dal and toor dal. (Chana dal is supposed to be especially good for diabetics, having a stabilizing effect on blood sugar.) Walking along the aisle at the Indian market I naiively said I didn't know there were so many kinds of beans. Then I found this site and it blew the door wide open.

Lima beans tend to be adapted to hotter climates, horticultural beans tend to be adapted to cooler climates, there are exceptions to both.

Some beans (and all cowpeas IMO) taste best if picked at the green mature (horticultural) stage. These beans typically are sweeter and don't have the dry powdery texture that some dry beans get.

You can find tons of beans at companies like Vermont Bean, Sandhill Preservation, native Seeds, Baker Creek, etc. There are links on this webpage.

seed and supplies

DarJones

"For example, are horticultural beans synonymous with shelly beans? Or are there other shellies? It seems to me that cranberry, borlotto, and maybe Wren's Egg are very similar, at least by their description. Are they subtle variations of the same bean?"

I tried to find a definition of horticultural beans and found it was very difficult to pin down. I think it is a somewhat vague concept. A horticultural bean is any bean customarily used in the shelly stage by New Englanders. It usually has red markings like the cranberry bean has. That's the best I can do. If someone has a more precise definition, I'm all ears.

Two varieties with horticultural in their names are French Horticultural and Taylor's Dwarf Horticultural. Dwarf is another name for bush bean.

Jim

Here is a link that might be useful: French Horticultural Beans

Eggandart, I'll send you a couple ounces of Ma Williams for a SASE. Send me an email.
Or you could just go here

Here is a link that might be useful: Seeds from Italy

Fusion Power I am interested in your comment above.

Can you suggest a lima bean that might do well here in PNW runner bean country? - Dick

Thanks everyone, for lots of good information! And thank you zeedman and happyday for your offers, it's very nice of you!

From what Fusion and Jimster said, it seems that horticultural beans are one kind of shell bean, which do well in cooler climates like the northeast, and often have pink mottling. It would be interesting to get to the origin of the term. So it seems it's definitely not synonymous with "shell bean", which must comprise a huge group of beans that are eaten in the shell stage.

I've noticed many shelly beans offered for sale come from warm climates, like southern Appalachia. Can I assume that some will, and some won't, grow well in more northern areas?

I think the term 'horticultural bean' is a regional dialect item. It is used in the northeast pretty much the same as we would use the term 'shelly bean' here in the south. The difference being that down here any green bean that is shelled because it is overmature would be called a shelly where the horticultural beans are grown solely for purposes of shelling, i.e. they are not normally used as snap beans.

I propose the following definition:
Horticultural bean - any bean grown solely for the purpose of shelling at the green nature stage.

Shelly bean - any bean grown for both snaps and shelling at the green mature stage.

For lima beans that could mature in the pnw, King of the Garden lima is arguably the best option I can think of.

DarJones

"For example, are horticultural beans synonymous with shelly beans? Or are there other shellies? It seems to me that cranberry, borlotto, and maybe Wren's Egg are very similar, at least by their description. Are they subtle variations of the same bean?"

While the description of "horticultural beans" is hazy at best, I tend to agree with Fusion's assessment. They are generally considered to be beans with fibrous hulls, grown for dry/shelly use only. As to the different groups (bird egg, borlotto, horticultural), some of the varieties within them may be nearly identical, just with different regional names. The borlottos seem to be the most diverse in terms of their commercial offerings.

That being said... I have collected quite a few "snap" beans whose seeds are nearly indistinguishable from the horticulturals, with the same large seeds & red-striped white/tan seeds. The largest P. vulgaris shelly I have found, "Bird Egg #3", is one of these. While most (if not all) horticultural beans make good shellies, there are many snap beans which also make good shellies.

There are also large-seeded beans in colors other than red & white, such as the black & white "Chester" (aka "Flagg") and the red, tan & white "Porcelain" (aka "Snowcap")... and of course, many white cultivars. Nor should smaller-seeded cultivars be automatically discounted, such as "Rose", and the previously mentioned "Soissons Vert".

"Does this mean that shellies mature earlier than limas? "
"I've noticed many shelly beans offered for sale come from warm climates, like southern Appalachia. Can I assume that some will, and some won't, grow well in more northern areas?"

As Fusion mentioned, the lines overlap somewhat. There are a few early limas, and some rather late P. vulgaris beans, such the October beans. My experience is that some of the Appalachian beans (such as "Rose") fall in this category, while others (such as "Ma Williams", aka "Goose") do not. The earliest pole shellies - such as "Goose" and "Chester" - will be far more reliable in cool climates than the earliest pole limas.

"Can you suggest a lima bean that might do well here in PNW runner bean country?"

Probably not a pole variety; "Sieva" or "Red Carolina" would be my best recommendations. The bush varieties "Henderson" or "Thorogreen" would stand a better chance. All of these are small-seeded, I don't think that the large-seeded varieties could mature in a cool Maritime climate. You would probably need to start pole varieties early as transplants; that is the only way they perform reliably for me in my Wisconsin climate.

In the 1865 Edition of Field and Garden Vegetables of America, published in Boston, Fearing Burr describes in great detail more than 50 varieties of common beans, two thirds of which are bush beans.

Each description includes comments on the merits of the variety for eating in the pod, green shell and ripe shell stages. I find this interesting because todayÂs seed catalogs very seldom mention the use of common beans in the green shelling stage. Almost no one I know eats shelly beans. There are two exceptions. One is a gardening friend who is a dyed-in-the wool New Englander. The other is also a gardening friend of New England heritage who started cooking shellies a couple of years ago at my suggestion when she had a lot of overgrown bush beans. In Fearing BurrÂs day however, shelly beans seem to have been a popular food.

Burr uses the term "horticultural" only as part of the varietal names of two beans, the Dwarf Horticultural Bean and the Horticultural Bean. He never uses horticultural in reference to a class or category of beans.

Part of BurrÂs description of Dwarf Horticultural says, "The Dwarf Horticultural Bean is quite productive, and the young pods are tender and of good quality. It is, however, not so generally cultivated for its young pods as for its seeds, which are much esteemed for their mild flavor and farinaceous quality. For shelling in the green state, it is one of the best of the Dwarfs, and deserves cultivation." He describes the appearance of the pods as "green while young, but changing to yellow, marbled and streaked with rose-red, when sufficiently advanced for shelling in their green state." The Horticultural Bean gets a similarly favorable review. I think the high regard attained by those beans gave them the status of models for all shelly type common beans which, in turn, resulted in the use of the term as a category.

Prior to reading BurrÂs descriptions, I thought horticultural beans were a category of beans, and the nomenclature may have evolved to where that is the case. But obviously it was not the case 150 years ago. At that time, just about any common bean was a candidate for green shelling. Many, but not all, had the characteristic red markings we now associate with "horticultural" beans but only a couple of varieties were Horticultural Beans. I now believe the current vague usage of that term is just a result of carelessness and waining popularity of common beans in the green shell stage. I propose that those who are in-the-know revert to the use of the name horticultural as a varietal name and not apply it to other shelly beans.

I second the motion. Having two names, "Shelly beans" and "Horticultural beans", confuses an already confusing situation! Although it is cool, from a historical POV, because it's indicative of the regionalization crops used to have.

Can you explain the difference between the green shell and ripe shell stages? This is yet another nuance. It's amazing how much there is to know about these beans!

Ripe shell, as Burr uses it, is simply the mature bean which we usually call dried beans. Yep, another nuance of bean nomenclature.

Jim

Maybe I should have said "dry beans", not "dried beans". Another nuance.

Jim

OK. When beans are picked in the green shell stage, how long do you cook them for? Are they edible raw?

As for the mature, or "ripe" beans, is there any reason to harvest them before they're dry? In the past I've let them thoroughly dry on the vine. Then I store them for shelling whenever I get around to it.

Egganddart, common beans are edible raw until they dry, then they must be cooked. Green shellies don't need much cooking. It depends on the stage you pick them at, and the texture you want, but I'd simmer them for maybe 10 minutes or so. There may be differences between varieties.

If your fall weather stays dry enough to dry on the vine, you are lucky. I pick before frost, which ruins undried beans, and bring all inside, string the pods on long threads, hang till they dry, then shell into wire baskets and put a fan on them till they have completely changed color, then bag up and put in freezer with the top of the bag open to let any moisture escape. The fan and freezing is important for thoroughly dried beans.

Of course if I want shellies I can shell at any point before they dry and put them right in the pot.

Ripe bean seeds in the genus Phaseolus (including common beans, runners, and limas) are all toxic when raw, to varying degrees... common beans less so than limas. Cooking destroys the toxins. Happy pretty much summed up my thoughts on cooking times; 10-20 minutes for most varieties.

Beans harvested when ripe, but before the pods begin to dry, have a flavor & texture which many prefer over the same beans when dried & reconstituted. It takes a little vigilance to harvest the pods at this stage, but no more than is required for snap beans.

"I propose that those who are in-the-know revert to the use of the name horticultural as a varietal name and not apply it to other shelly beans."

Since your thread on Horticultural Beans is back on top, Jimster, I'll respond there.

This is a related thread on shellies, with descriptions of many varieties:

Here is a link that might be useful: Shelly Beans

Ripe bean seeds in the genus Phaseolus (including common beans, runners, and limas) are all toxic when raw, to varying degrees... common beans less so than limas. Cooking destroys the toxins. Happy pretty much summed up my thoughts on cooking times for shellies: 10-20 minutes for most varieties.

Beans harvested when ripe, but before the pods begin to dry, have a flavor & texture which many prefer over the same beans when dried & reconstituted. It takes a little vigilance to harvest the pods at this stage, but no more than is required for snap beans.

"I propose that those who are in-the-know revert to the use of the name horticultural as a varietal name and not apply it to other shelly beans."

Since your thread on Horticultural Beans is back on top, Jimster, I'll respond there.

This is a related thread on shellies, with descriptions of many varieties:

Here is a link that might be useful: Shelly Beans