Zeedman, you mentioned runner beans. I've been growing good old fashioned Scarlett Runner beans for years. Not only do they have beautiful flowers which my hummingbirds appreciate, but the beans are delicious when picked small, and if I miss any in the foliage I leave them on the vines to fatten. They make lovely shellies--bright pink seeds spotted with black. Plus the seeds are available in most garden centers--I never have any trouble finding them.

Mommymammal, I too grow runner beans - and not just the "scarlet" (purple & black seeded) varieties, but brown, black, and white-seeded. I posted a separate thread on Runner Beans (see link below). Please share any preparation tips you might have on that thread.

I've had some trouble getting them to be palatable... they are not my favorites as shellies. The size is promising, but the tough skin & strong flavor were not appealing to me. On the other hand, many limas & large pole beans are very good.

Zeedman, I never waited for my runner beans to fully dry on the vine. Since they produce continually, I try to harvest them young and tender. But inevitably I miss some pods in the foliage, and they get tougher and definitely stringy if the pods get much over 6". So I wait for the seeds to fill out nicely (sort of like big edamame), then shell them out of the green pods. Since I never have a large quantity of them at a time, I just toss them in with the younger, sliced beans and cook them all together. Ive never eaten a whole serving of just shelled runner beans, so I guess you probably have a point that they may not taste quite as good as beans bred just for this purpose. I'll still grow them because the flowers are beautiful and the young pods are delicious!

I grow two types of runner beans as shellys, Scarlet Emperor and a variety that was brought from Germany. The people I got it from just call it "German Beans." The blossoms and seeds are similar to Scarlet Emperor except that the colors on the seeds are reversed. The are light purple with dark spots, and some of them are larger than the Scarlet Emperors.

We harvest both kinds when the shells start to turn yellow and they are easy to shell. We enjoy them steamed with butter, salt, pepper and some grated cheese.

The ones that dry out make great chilli.

Just an update...

Several other varieties were trialed as shellies this year, so I thought I would add them to this thread. Most are heirlooms, or were sent to me as swaps.

Part of this year's shellies. Clockwise from upper left are "Bert Goodwin", an unknown Serbian wax, "PI 507984", and "Jembo Polish".

"Bird Egg #3" and "Jembo Polish" were regrown this year, and are described above. Happily, the "Jembo Polish" now appears to be pure seed.

"PI 507984" is a true bush variety, with a very upright habit & no runners. It was extremely vigorous, with dense foliage & a very heavy yield. It was also very early for such a large bean... harvest was _complete_ in 90 days. This variety is deserving of wider cultivation, especially in short-season areas.

The "Bert Goodwin" is a half-runner vine, with most of the crop borne in the first 24". It cropped very heavily, and was earlier than all but "PI 507984". It was sent to me as a dry bean; but like most good shellies that I have tried, it was also pretty good as a snap.

The unknown Serbian wax bean was also half-runner habit. While a few runners reached the top of the trellis, the majority of the yield was borne near the ground, where branching was heavy. The wide, flat yellow pods were OK as a snap, but the quality of the large shellies was also very good.

"True Red Cranberry" is a true pole, with the yield borne evenly from top to bottom. The short pods are fibrous, unsuitable for use as snaps. The seeds are a dark, glossy red, nearly spherical, and very attractive... but not overly large. I have to agree with Organicburro, the seeds taste very much like Red Kidney. It was later than the others, which is why it is not in the photo. A nearly identical cultivar, "Isla" (from Chile) was later still, and I only have a handful of dry seed as I write this.

This was a year to regrow one of my favorite snaps, "Garafal Oro", for seed replenishment. The dry seed harvest was exceptionally large, so I took the last ripe pods as shellies. While they were fairly tough-skinned, they were also very sweet... but the best use for this variety remains its exceptionally-flavored snaps.

Those are some pretty beans ya got Zeedman. The black and white bean at the top. Is that the unknown Serbian Wax variety?

Yes, H.M.K., the spotted black & white beans are the Serbian pole wax. Those beans were sent to me in trade by a GW member who has since stopped posting. They had obtained them from Serbia, and promised that they would attempt to identify the cultivar's name on their next visit. No word thus far.

I hope that they read this & respond, because this is an interesting bean which I intend to share widely... and I would like to do so using its real name.

They sent me another Serbian pole wax, named "Tisa". While unsuitable for use as a shelly, it had a very unique & unusual flavor. I was able to harvest a considerable amount of dry seed from both samples.

I would like to find the bean that my grandmother used to grow and can. She called them shelly beans. There is a brown bean in a flavorful pod. She cooked them beans pods and all. Some of the beans were not in the pod. Stokleys sells a bean just like it. Can anyone tell me the name of the bean so that I can buy the seed?

Also I will be container gardening in somewhat limited space. If you had room for only one bean, which one would you grow?

I have just moved to Graham WA where it is a bit cooler than Seattle where I grew my shellys previously. In studying weather patterns for previous years, I noticed that it is possible to have the occasional 40F night here in June.

Does anyone know if that temperature will damage young bean plants?

I doubt very much that an occasional 40F low will harm bean plants.

Jim

I agree with Jimster. If the lows continue for several days, the leaves might become temporarily chlorotic; but when temps warm again, they should green up. My only concern would be if the low temps coincided with extended rainfall, which could promote disease.

Thank you jimster and zeedman. The plan right now is to sow seeds in peat pots about May 15 and save some for a bit later sowing.

I prefer green beans to shellies, but like some dual-use beans for fall. If the weather toughens the pods, I use the beans as shellies. I like Black Valentine and Coco Rose de Prague as shellies even though the beans aren't very big.

One year I grew a variety called "Atlas" which I got from Vermont Bean Seed years ago. It's along the lines of Tongues of Fire. Pods are good, and shellies are too. I have a few seeds left and haven't seen them offered in years. They're a bush bean but need to be tied to a support when the pods start to ripen, or they drag in the dirt.

My mother, age 96, says that her favorite green bean is a pinto. Does anyone plant pinto beans and just use them when they are young.

I don't usually plant anything except pole beans because they are hard for me to pick. I have 10 inches of steel in my back so I don't bend and I have to get down on the ground to pick.

I thought I might try planting some in a big pot just to see how they tasted as fresh beans. Do you know?

My husband grew up picking Pintos as green beans, near San Diego. They were repeat bearers in that mild climate, so much so that the kids got very tired of picking. They are my in-laws' favorite for "beany" flavor, though now my mother-in-law prefers stringless Contender, which is not quite as good, according to her.

I grew Pintos as green beans once in the fall. Some varieties will be gangly for a bush snap bean. I planted mine near a short fence and it was a good thing I did. What I remember about the pods was that they were very flat. But I think I pick green beans younger than my in-laws do. They like them after the seeds have started to develop.

Seed Savers is selling a cross between Pinto and a purple bean this year, Red Swan, which is supposed to be stringless.

I guess I should refer to "strains" of Pintos, not "varieties". I think I remember reading at one time about commercial growers of Pintos being able to choose between strains which were either short and bushy or sprawling. I was surprised to learn that a lot of dried Pintos are grown in Idaho. The ones I grew were just beans from a bag of Pintos I bought at the grocery store.

Don't try to grow Contender like my inlaws prefer them (big and hearty) in cool fall weather. The pods get fibrous, though they still don't develop a string. Fortunately, Contender (Buff Valentine) would probably also be a decent shelly bean.

When I was a child my mother grew those big "Bird Egg No. 3" beans. I have always loved those beans and would like to grow some. Do you know where I could get some seed? I am also interested in PI507984 and Bert Goodwin. Thank you for any help you could give me.

Summerphlox, other than those I have shared with in the past, I am probably the only source for "Bird Egg #3". My seed stock is fairly low at present (chiefly due to this thread :-), but I also have two similar varieties ("Canon City" and "Portugal") that are only slightly smaller. "Canon City" is actually earlier, and had the heaviest yield... and I still have several pounds of seed.

As far as I know, I am the only public source for the PI 507984. There has been considerable interest in it this year, and my seed supply is nearly exhausted... I've mailed out nearly a pound of seed! I will be planting a large seed/harvest crop this year, and should have it available for swaps again starting this Fall.

"Bert Goodwin" is available in seed saving circles (such as SSE). It did exceptionally well for me last year, three pounds of seed from a ten-foot row! That, and two meals of shellies.

If you are interested in either "Canon City" or "Bert Goodwin", you don't need a swap, just contact me via my Member Page.

When bean seeds are started in peat pots, is it necessary to remove the bottoms of the pots when planting out?

For all but the largest beans, I use peat strips (Jiffy 32's). I've never removed the bottoms before planting... the roots just grow through them. I usually place a little sand (about a half-inch or so) in the bottom of the plastic tray, then nestle the peat pots into it. Because the sand stays moist, there is no "air pruning" of the roots. When I transplant, I gently pull these roots from the sand, then coil them in the bottom of the hole under the pot. This should be done quickly, before they have a chance to dry out - and watered immediately after planting. With the extra roots, the seedlings establish themselves very quickly.

You should, however, tear off any exposed edges of the pots just prior to planting - the portion above the soil line. If any of the edges are exposed after transplanting, they will wick moisture away from the roots. In the worst case, the soil will pull away from the pot, and the seedling will die... but more likely, they will just get a weaker start, because they will only be able to root from the bottom.

Thank you Zeedman. Very helpful information as always. Let me know if you write a book!

I now have samples of "Ma Williams" and Bill Best's "Goose." They appear identical visually. I will report on how both do later.

One more question for you and others on this thread: In the past I have sown bush snap beans in wide beds with a crowded block spacing of 6X6 inches. For larger plants such as "PI 507984" or "Bert Goodwin" (if treated as a bush plant), or for seed saving purposes how would, say, 12X12 or similar spacing work for block planting?

I have noticed that "Britta's Foot Long" pole bean seeds are much larger when grown with your wide spacing than other Britta's seeds that I have seen.

Before Gardenlad stopped posting, I sent him a sample of "Ma Williams". He compared it to "Kentucky Goose", and the seed appeared identical. He was going to grow them for comparison, but I never heard back from him. Then on a trip to Heritage Farm (SSE's headquarters), I examined another variety, "Pumpkin Bean", which also appeared to be identical in seed, pod, and habit. I also have a sample of "Goose", sent to me by Will Bonsall; I agree that it appears identical as well. If all of them are not identical, they certainly have a common ancestry. The seed shape & color is fairly unique.

As for spacing... "PI 507984", while very vigorous, is a true upright bush. 12" spacing each way should work well.

"Bert Goodwin" is another matter. Grown without support, it would be wider, and the plants would probably lay on their sides as they begin to get weighed down by pods. I grew them 12" apart along a short trellis, and they were about 18" wide at the base at maturity. 12" spacing might help them support each other - or they could be a tangled mess! I wish I could tell you more... but I've never tried half-runners grown in wide rows. Fortunately, the pods are fairly large, so you should be able to find them in either case.

Wide spacing does seem to have the advantage of larger seeds, and better pod fill. Having seen how well "Brita's" responded to it, I may give it more than my usual 12" spacing when I grow it again - perhaps 16".

Not this year, though... I still have a large number of heirlooms to trial, and next year as well. After that, I hope to whittle my collection down to the 30-40 beans most worthy of preservation, and grow those that I like on a more regular basis... including "Brita's".

Thank you once again, Zeedman.

Gardenlad decided to shut down his Appalachian Heirloom Seed Conservancy due to lack of response. I hope he will somehow continue to share his expertise.

Well, I have about 100 "Rose", "Britta's", "Goose", "Ma Williams" and "PI 507984" plants in peat pots. It was interesting to see how aggressively the roots poked through the pots. It is time to plant them out and also direct seed the rest. Alas, the local 10 day forecast is calling for highs of 67 today, then 61, 65, 57, 59, 59, 57, 60, 60, and 62. Way below normal for early June. So I am wondering about waiting to see if things improve. This La Niña cool spell is apparently not over yet. Wonder if my wife would be willing to move to balmy Oshkosh! At least we do not expect frost until late October.

Drloyd, that La Niña cold spell is being felt all the way over here... I've yet to begin planting my beans. Since I grow some rare & long-season beans, I have started some of them in pots, to increase my chances of getting seed from them.

"Well, I have about 100 "Rose"..."
Fascinating... I just started some in peat pots as well. Did you get yours from GL?

I really miss his presence on GW, we had some interesting & spirited discussions. The Bean Forum just isn't the same without his sage counsel. I had heard of last year's AHSC cancellation, and knew it must have cut him deeply. I also hope he will return in some capacity... he still has plenty of friends here who share his vision.

The "Rose" along with the "Goose" came from Bill
Best. I did order the Rose because of GL's comments on it. It should make a very nice looking shelly. Shame to cook it!

Germinaton of the larger "Britta's" seed was 100% and was earlier that of a sample of smaller seeds.

I would appreciate it if I could have some comments on the minimum temperatures that people would look for before sowing most common shelly bean seeds. Like: I direct seed if the daily high temperature for the next week is forecast to be at least_____.

My mother started gardening as a child in So. Il and continued
until she was 94. She often saved her own beans for seed and I have also, but we have never grown the wide variety of beans discussed here because our gardens are small. Green pole snap beans, usually, KY [brown-seeded] or MO Wonder were her favorites, but I like shellies better and also grow some pole varieties for dried beans. I've always kept my different kinds as far apart as I can, according to conventional wisdom, but the other day when I advised another gardener, who had 4 kinds in a small space abt. 18X18', not to save the seeds because they would not be pure, she snapped that she had checked and it doesn't matter how close they are to each other as the advice on planting distance has changed. Am I out-of-date in my practice of rotating varieties each year so they won't cross in my small garden? How close can beans be grown to each other?

Maggie, I don't think that the isolation distance for beans has "changed"... there has always been disagreement. Some claim that beans grown side-by-side will not cross, and in some areas, that may be true. Others have experienced crossing, self included - sometimes severe.

If you search this forum for "bean isolation" or "bean crossing", you will find many discussions of the issue. I am providing a link to one of the better threads... crossing is discussed about half-way down the page.

By placing other flowering plants ("barrier crops") between different P vulgaris bean varieties, you can reduce the distances required for (reasonably) pure seed. The taller the barrier, and the more likely it is to bloom at the same time as the beans, the better the protection. Pole limas & runner beans are excellent for this purpose.

How do you prepare your shelly beans?

Growing up I was not a bad fan of Lima beans, which were usually boiled and tasteless. I have not eaten any since.

Dean

Dean, we often just serve shellys with butter, salt and pepper with maybe a sprinkle of grated cheese. But then I also like lima bean soup made with onion and garlic.

Zeedman, all the bean seeds that did not go into peat pots were sprouted indoors as the soil temperature by early June was only around 60F. Summer did actually arrive though and the temperatures since mid-June have been in the normal range.

The bean plants in peat pots were a partial success. I had the plants in a hoop house just sitting on the soil. So they developed large root masses that I had to dig up. After they were planted out in the garden, the plants all became very clorotic and sad looking.

The "Britta's" faired best and are now about 6 feet up their poles. (I have some on poles, some on trellises.)

Rose plants did not like being dug up at all. They look ok now but they have not yet started to climb.

So next year the peat pots will go in trays with sand or potting mix.

"45/90" is the name of a shelly from an SSE member. It was listed as pole dry bean with enormous seeds that could be grown as a "rangy bush." The seeds are indeed very big, but the plants did not have any visible cotyledons so it appears to be a runner bean and may have half runner habit.

"Bianco di Spagna" also has very big seeds and also appears to be a runner bean.

I planted some "PI 507984" in a self watering container in a greenhouse and they have a lot of blossoms and small beans. I wonder if they would make a good snap but do not want to waste any future seed by trying them.

There is also a self watering container of "Bert Goodwin" in the greenhouse. The runners are about 4 feet high so far. I planted some in the garden under trellises and some in the bush section. If those have 4-5 foot runners the bush patch will be quite an interesting sight!

Drloyd, my beans were also very late getting in this year, due to the exceptionally cool, wet weather here this year. My main garden is in a low spot, and was completely flooded in mid-June. It took a long time to dry out - I was still planting last weekend!

Because of the late start, most of the heirloom beans I had intended to grow for seed will have to wait for next year - I don't want to waste the seed. However, I put in a big crop of "PI 507984", which I hope will still have time to mature. Last year they only took 90 days to reach dry stage. It will be my only shelly, unless "Rose" makes it to maturity. The seedlings just have their first true leaf, and look very healthy... I just need to keep the bunnies away, they are being a real pain this year.

As you have already noticed, "PI 507984" gets an impressive number of flowers, followed by a heavy pod set. I tried a few as snaps, and they were not bad; but I agree that it would be a waste to use them that way. The shellies are so much better!

"Rose" was started as transplants in peat strips, and put out in June. So far, the plants have languished... hopefully they will do better now that they are mulched.

The runners on "Bert Goodwin" shouldn't get much longer; it is a half-runner variety. I think SSE calling it "bush" is stretching the truth, so to speak. ;-)

If "45/90" turns out to be a white-seeded runner bean (as is likely, given your description), you should inform the source - I assume it was NM DU C? - and SSE, that the species listed is incorrect.

Zeedman I was very sorry to hear about your flood.

It appears that we will be Niño/Niña neutral for the rest of the summer and fall so hopefully you will not have another early frost like last year. Last fall was much colder and cold earlier than usual here too.

NM DU C says that he agrees that "45/90" is a runner bean and says that he has never eaten them. About 10% of the seeds are brown. I did CC my email to SSE.

The greenhouse "Bert Goodwins" plants seem to have stopped climbing at 5 1/2 feet and now have dozens of blossoms.

In the garden, of a couple dozen shelly types, only the "PI 507984" plant that were in peat pots have any blossoms so far but the other plants are looking pretty good now.

The greenhouse self watering container plants are way ahead of the garden plants. I do not know if it that they get more steady moisture, or have better soil, or if it is just that they get warmer temperatures for more of the day.

The "Rose" plants are starting to climb but get off to a slow start compared to, say, "Britta's" which get started climbing at a much earlier age. - Richard

Summer in the Seattle area looked like it had finished by mid-August, but September has been nice with temperatures near average in the low to mid 70s.

We had our first mess of shellies of the season tonight.

I picked a number of pods of a runner bean called "Bond's Orcas Lima". The pods had not started to turn yellow yet but they were plump with large white seeds. Much to my surprise, the seeds turned green when cooked. I wonder if other white seeded runner beans turn green like that. Anyway, they make good shellies and did not have tough skins.

We also had some "Goose" shellies. The first Goose pods have turned a beautiful yellow and rose before "Ma Williams" have, perhaps due to better afternoon sun. It was interesting that the Goose/Ma Williams were slower than Brita's to make snap beans, but faster to make shellies. The Brita's are not yet to shelly stage, but it is looking like they will make it.

We also treated ourselves to a few "PI 507984" and they were very good. The rest will have to be saved for seed.

The "Rose" plants are interesting. They are growing around poles. They are planted close to the poles, but they are extremely bushy, about four feet diameter at the bases. They finally have reached the top of the poles and are covered with blossoms. There are some tiny beans, but at the current rate of progress it looks like a few snaps is the best we can expect.

The "Snowcap" plants look good and have large pods. I am hoping that they will fill out in time.

Richard, I'm glad to hear that you are harvesting shellies. I had some reservations, given your climate.

My own beans are still lagging behind. "PI 507984" has a very good pod set, and the pods have really fattened up, so I think they will make it. "Rose" had been in half-day shade, and was just limping along; but after I took down the tree that was shading it, the vines really took off. Nothing gets in the way of my beans! ;-) There are quite a few large pods now, so I hope to get some dry seed... but barring that, I should at least get some shellies.

A couple other heirlooms show some potential as shellies, but they are being s-l-o-w to fatten up, and I'm already dealing with a short Summer. If they make any progress, and prove to be worth eating, I'll update this thread.

Zeedman, I recently saw your directions for freezing snap beans. Have you written up your method of freezing shelly beans?

drloyd, we also serve boiled beans with butter, salt,pepper and oregano seeds.Tastes great.At times we boil the pods of different shellies filled with nearly matured seeds. Add salt and oregano seeds while they are boiling.

Hi chaman. It is good to hear from another shelly grower. That sounds like a winner. I would like to try that.
Where do you find oregano seeds? Or do you grow them?
Tonight we will have to make do with just plain butter, salt and pepper on our Goose and Ma Williams shellies steamed in the pod. (grinning with anticipation)

This morning the thermometer read 33F and there was frost on my car. There has only been one frost recorded here this early before, decades ago. It looks like I spoke too soon about normal temperatures this fall.

As of tonight, everything in the garden looks fine. I don't know how long it takes for frost damage to show. Went out and picked the "Brita's" and "PI 507984" pods that are at shelly stage or better.

The damage usually shows up within hours of sunrise. Hope your garden escaped! Our temps here in NE OK are about perfect now. We only had one or two times that night time temps hit near 45. But normally, for the last few weeks, our night time temps have been around 55-65 F. Day time temps are between 75-85 F. I wish we had months and months of this weather!

Incidentally, I experimented and planted a row of Tennessee Cutshort with a couple Insuk's Wang Kong mixed in, on August 8. They are both now flowering and have small pods on them! Looks like we're going to get another crop of beans before frost! We've been canning snaps mixed with shellies pretty regularly, and that, from our first planting (May 11). Our summer was cool (comparatively speaking, for Oklahoma) and with enough moisture, that these vines never did dry down.

George

Hi drloyd,
We buy the Oregano seeds from Indian grocery store.These seeds are available at Organic food stores also.

Hi George. The garden appears to have escaped undamaged. You are giving me a jealousy attack! We used to live in the highlands of Papua New Guinea doing similar work to what you did in Mexico. Days were 75-80F and nights were about 60F all year there....

Thank you chaman, I will see what I can find. - Dick

Yes, I know the nostalgia! Where we lived in Mexico we had two months of "winter." That meant frequent morning frosts and no snow. We'd wear sweaters and coats, early in the day, and be down to short sleeves by 10 AM, even in winter!

Incidentally (to all) back in the late 90s a Mexican friend, with family in Zapotec territory in Oaxaca, gave me seed to a bean his family had brought from there. I totally forgot about it, and forgot to label it. But in 2004 I accidentally planted it, thinking I'd found an old sack of Tennessee Cutshort seed. That year, in NJ, we had an unusually late first frost, and I did manage to get seed (albeit somewhat underdeveloped). Since then I haven't succeeded, since it's daylight sensitive. But this year I sent some seed to a Seed Savers Exchange member in HI and I planted a couple in a bucket. The ones in the bucket are presently making snaps. I'll bring that bucket onto our sun porch if necessary, in order to get seed.

The reason I'm so excited about this bean is that it is a LARGE FAT podded Greasy bean! I've never heard of a Greasy bean from outside the SE USA. But this one is native Zapotec Indian. Someday I'd like to try using it for some crosses and see if I can get a less daylight sensitive variety.

George

Drloyd, you had asked elsewhere about my method of preparation for freezing shellies. I basically just copied the instructions out of the Ball Blue Book for freezing limas (I highly recommend the book). They gave different blanching times (1-3 minutes, depending upon the size of the limas) and I started out using similar times for shellies.

Eventually, I increased those times, because the water had not returned to a boil in the time allotted. I never use less than 3 minutes for smaller beans, and about 5 for the largest beans & limas. These times are based upon a pound of seed; so I weigh out a pound, pour it into a quart freezer container, and measure by volume from then on. I blanch the beans using a steamer kettle with a deep removable basket. As with freezing any vegetable, it is handy to have two baskets, so one can be cooking while the other is cooling.

Once the beans are blanched, I remove the basket & place it immediately in the sink, where I have pre-filled a large kettle with cold water. I stir the beans to immerse them, and to cool them quickly. Once they are cool & drained, I pack them into boxes to freeze them. It is not as critical to vacuum-seal the frozen shell beans as it would be for snaps, but I generally do so, to increase their storage life. I have kept frozen shellies for 2 years in vacuum bags, with no loss of quality.

Next year, after I have purchased a suitably large pressure cooker, I intend to experiment with canning shellies as opposed to freezing them. If the quality proves to be acceptable, it would free up freezer space for other things.

Thank you Zeedman. I plan to freeze several kinds of shellies in the next few days. The shelly trials worked out well, the main failure being "Rose." The seeds did not quite get to shelly stage. I was hoping to see the remarkable coloration that they have but they did not make it.

We had 30F on Friday night which took out the squash and bean leaves. I was out of town at the time. Most of the beans that are at shelly stage look fine and are much easier to see now! There are loads of "Snowcap" and several others that still need to be picked. There are even a lot of "Ma Williams" left even though we have had a mess most every night for a few weeks. They are probably my favorite, steamed in the shell. As soon as I get the rest of the shellies salvaged I will do a report.

Drloyd, I'm looking forward to your report.

"Rose" did poorly for me as well, even though it was started as transplants. I knew it required a long season, but I was still largely unprepared for just how long. The frost which all but killed my country garden, left the gardens around my home largely unaffected - or "Rose" might not have made it to seed.

There were mitigating factors this year; the lack of sunny days in early Summer, heavy rains, below normal temperatures, partial shade provided by a tree (I cut it down in early August). Still, "Rose" came in at 132 DTM for dry seed... which is just about the length of my warm-weather growing season, and much too long for me to grow it reliably.

I found the snaps to be very tasty, and will be trying the shellies soon; but other than for preservation, I doubt I will grow it again. Only the lateness of the killing frost has allowed me to collect a good quantity of seed.

2008 Bean Report

One goal for this summer was to find out what would grow well at a location where the average daytime high on August 1 is 76 F and the average nighttime low is 52 F. Last frost is expected about May 1 and the first about October 25.

This was a summer that was described by many as the most difficult gardening season they could remember. Spring arrived here weeks late and fall frosts were early with 30 F on October 11 which killed the bean leaves and 29 F on the 15th.

The "Himalayan" blackberries started to ripen a month late and then most of them just died on the vines. So it was a good time to see what plants might thrive here most any summer.

All bean seeds were pre-sprouted and were planted out on June 14 and 15 unless otherwise noted. Pole beans were planted in 14 foot rows north to south, some on trellises and some on poles. There was a 14 foot row of each pole variety with extra "Britas" and "Goose"/"Ma Williams"

It became obvious that I had gotten in over my head with too many varieties and I ended up with poor records on some.

"45/90" was thought to be a pole dry common bean so it was planted late, on 6/14. But turned out to be a runner with some plants with pole habit and some half-runner habit. Some had red blossoms and some white. They were early enough to produce dry seed. No reports of eating qualities.
"Azores" is a bush dry bean with medium size shellies, shelly stage by 9/14 and mostly dry by 9/28.
"Bert Goodwin" is a half runner dry bean. In the greenhouse it produced a heavy crop of large shellies on 5-6 foot vines. Outdoors, it produced a fair crop and made it to shelly stage by 10/1 and dry by the 10/12. They did better grown in a block as a bush bean due to shading of the short plants when grown on a trellis in the pole section. Some 2-3 foot twigs for support would help. This is a good candidate for a multi-purpose bean with good snaps and shellies.
"Bianco di Spagna" is a white pole runner bean that was planted on 6/15, later than the other runners because it was advertised as a common bean. It has truly enormous shellies up to 1 ¾ inch long. As of 9/28 there were many plump green pods with huge shellies. Over a 2-3 week period we had several meals of these delicious thin skinned shellies. On 10/19 I picked a couple buckets of pods to shell for freezing. Many pods were yellow and a few dry.
"Bonds Orcas Lima" is an early white seed pole runner bean that was planted 5/30. The snaps were ready by 8/8 but I did not try them. We started using them as shellies on 9/6 and by 9/18 there were many yellow and drying pods. The shellies are thin skinned and good flavored.
"Borlotto Lingua di Fuoco" is a pole dry bean. Snaps were ready 8/20. There were some shellies ready by 9/28. Shellies were up to 15/16 inch long, plump and oval. I picked the last of them on 10/18 and there were not many. They were shaded by corn and made a lot of foliage, not many beans.
"Borlotto Solista" is a bush dry bean. Snaps were ready 8/20. Some shellies were ready by 9/28 and all were at shelly stage by 10/18. Shellies were up to 1 1/6 long in pods that were up to 11 inches long. No pods were dry.
"Borlotto Stregonta" is a pole dry bean. Snaps were ready 8/20. Many of the 15/16" shellies were ready by 9/28 and by 10/19 there was about a pound of dry seed along with shellies to freeze.
"Britas" is sold by Salt Spring Seeds as a pole snap bean. Some were sown in peat pots on 5/23 and planted out 6/14. The vines were loaded with good snaps by 8/4 and green pod shellies by 9/6. Some pods were turning yellow by 9/18. At that stage the 9 inch pods are inedible but they are very easy to shell and the medium size shellies are tender and delicious. On 9/28 they had many yellow and drying pods. Some were planted 6-14 as sprouted beans and were not yellow by 9/28. By 10/13 these were a mix of green shelly stage, yellow and dry. A third bed was sown on 6/20. By 10/18 there were many at green pod shelly stage or yellow but about half were a total loss, beyond snaps and not yet shellies. This is another good multipurpose bean and it produces very high yields.
"Bumblebee" is a bush dry bean. Some were shelly stage by 9/14 and most by 9/28. They had very fat pods with big shellies. We liked them and steamed them in the pods. The pods were tender and edible (except for strings) when they started to turn yellow. Later they got somewhat fibrous.
"Cannellini Bush" many were at shelly stage by 9/12. The shellies were small and we cooked them in the pods which were a bit chewy. On 9/28 most were at shelly stage or drying as seed.
"Cannellini Gigante" is a white pole runner bean planted 5/30. By 9/28 some pods were plump, a couple turning yellow. As of 10/24 most are at green pod shelly stage and we are still using them as shellies. They may be a bit more chewy than Bianco de Spagna.
"Coco Rubico" is a bush dry bean sowed 6-21. Smallish shellies were ready by 9/28.
"Decker Family" is a bush dry bean. A few of the very large shellies were ready by 9/21. By 9/28 about 1/3 were at shelly stage. The few pods were all dry as of 10/20.
"Delucci Cannellini" is a white pole runner that was sown 5/30. By 9/28 there were some very fat green pods, and a couple turning yellow. By 10/19 most were at green pod shelly stage and I was able to freeze a few pounds of the tender and tasty shellies.
"European Soldier" is a bush dry bean. By 9/28 they were at shelly stage or drying. Large seeds but the crop was small.
"Jeminez" is a pole snap/shelly/dry bean. The first fine snaps were ready 8/20. There were no strings until the pods were very large. By 9/28 the pods looked very overripe and were plumping up but were still good. On 10/18 they were at shelly stage. Some of the pods were getting a bit fibrous. None of the pods dried out.
"Goose"/"Ma Williams" is a pole snap and shelly bean. They were ready as snaps 8/16 and the first shellies 9/6. Loads by 9/17. The ripe pods stay tender and we steam them in the pods. We continued eating these almost daily even after the frosts until the last ones got too dry about 10/20. The vines did not make much foliage so I had thought that the plants were languishing at first. The pods are a beautiful green/yellow/rose combination that makes them a pleasure to see.
"Goose Liver" is a bush dry bean that makes large shellies. The few pods were mostly drying by 9/28.
"Grammy Tilley" is an early white pole runner bean very similar to Bonds except that the shellies are more chewy.
"Insuks Wang Kong" is a pole runner bean with very large seeds that are either pink or dark purple, a few white. By 10/9 the generous yield was mostly at green pod shelly stage with some turning yellow. The large shellies were tasty (and chewy as with most runners).
"NT Half Runner" is a half runner snap bean. They produced quality snaps by 9/6. The pods stay tender even when plump.
"PI 507984" is a bush dry bean. Some were started in peat pots 5/23 and planted out on 6/14. The shellies were ready 8/28 and dry by 9/11. A bed was planted 6/20 - some were turning yellow and ready as shellies on 9/28. By 10/13 that last bed still had a lot of green pods, but also a lot of shellies and some dry seed. The plants were moderate producers in this climate and this summer. They were the best of the bush shellies.
"Rose", a pole shelly bean, was sown in peat pots 5/23 and planted out 6/14. They were producing quality snaps by 9/18. By 9/28 some pods were getting plump but no mature shellies were produced.
"Scarlet Beauty" is a bush dry bean. They were planted 6/21 and by 9/28 the plants looked sick and were not at shelly stage.
"Snowcap" is a pole dry bean. By 9/18 they starting to make shellies, and by 9/28 there were many up to 1 1/8 inch, white with maroon speckles and streaks. Pods at that stage were inedible and the shellies were a bit dry. They do make great soup. The brown pattern became visible after they were cooked. By 10/15 most were yellow pod stage or dry. I froze some and got a lot of dry seed. The seeds slowly develop the typical brown patch as they dry but it does not appear that they will ever look like normal Snowcap seed. They may like warmer temperatures.

Wow, Drloyd... that is a treasure trove of information, especially for other bean fanatics in the Pacific Northwest. 26 beans in a side-by side trial!!! Doubly valuable, given that your observations are for performance in an exceptionally bad year.

Glad to hear that "Ma Williams" did well, it is my earliest & most reliable pole shelly.

I really enjoyed the runner bean results, can't remember anyone growing that many at once. It sounds like "45/90" was not only misrepresented as a common bean, but based upon your observations of flower color, may have some crossing as well. Unfortunately, this seems to be fairly commonplace in runner bean samples from other seed savers. I am still working to purify two contaminated runner bean varieties sent to me, with good results - destroying rogue plants at the first sign of wrong flower color seems (at least so far) to be highly effective. Like "45/90", they both had a white-flowered impurity.

Two of your reviews were particularly useful to me:
- "Bianco di Spagna". As mentioned on another thread, I have long been searching for a thin-skinned runner bean shelly with great flavor. This one sounds promising. Can't remember if you gave a source, but I hope to add it to next year's trials.
- "Snowcap". I have actually had seed for several years, but come planning time, it always got pushed aside for other projects. Your description of the shellies, plus the fact that you were able to obtain seed in a difficult year, have convinced me to add it to next year's plans.

Despite the late start this year, the late frost at least partially made up for it... so as a result, I was able to collect at least some seed from all of my beans.

"PI 507984" did very well, with the first dry seed at 90 days & the first shellies about 10 days earlier. I note that your DTM for dry seed was about 110 days, which highlights the difference between my Wisconsin climate & that of the coastal Northwest... but I am encouraged that it performed as well for you as it did. As my main shelly crop, it was a success. I also was able to save about 3 pounds of seed, so I will once again have it available for trade.

My own "Rose" yielded dry seed, but only because of the late frost. I harvested the shellies only after I had collected some dry seed. This is a great multi-purpose bean, with both snaps & shellies of exceptional flavor. Unfortunately, the late DTM makes it too iffy for my climate, so I will not likely grow it again except for preservation. I highly recommend it for those with seasons longer than my own.

"Austrian Soup" could also be multi-purpose, with fair quality snaps, and good shellies. In size & color they resemble some of the cranberry beans, very fat, slightly more elongated. The vines were somewhere between a pole & a half-runner, and the yield was very good.

I did solve a nagging question this year. One of my preservation crops was "Kentucky Wonder White-seeded" (a.k.a. "Pole 191"). In all outward appearances, from vine, to pod, to seed, it appeared nearly identical to "Brita's Foot Long". I had been wondering if it was, in fact, the same bean. However, the resemblance ended with the flavor - the shellies were of inferior quality. This is not the first time that I have made such an observation, so I suppose I'll have to trial "Ma Williams", "Goose", and "Pumpkin Bean" side-by side.

Zeedman, thank you for your observations and for all your advice and help over the past months.

"Bianco de Spagna" came from the Harvest Moon/Felco Pruners people who no longer sell seeds under that company name. The companies who offer "Bianco de Spagna" a.k.a. "Spagna Bianco" or even probably "Spagna Bean" say that it is a common bean if they mention species at all. I planted it two weeks later than other runners because of that. If planted two weeks earlier, it would be much easier to save seed.

Trialing muliple shellies was educational and fun but I did not realize until it was too late that all their seeds would be suspect.

"Goose" seeds sprouted faster and more vigorously than "Ma Williams" and their pods started turning that beautiful yellow and rose color about two weeks earlier too. On the other hand, the "Ma Williams" were right next to a trellis of very aggressive borlotto beans and so got more shade. I could not tell any difference between them in taste or texture. This would probably be my favorite pole bean, especially since we really like them pod and all.

I was surprised how much difference a week made on the "Brita's" trial. Next year I plan to start a lot more beans in peat pots and am looking for suitable plastic trays so the roots don't bore into the ground again next time.

As has already been mentioned on several threads, the 2009 posts on this thread disappeared. The silver lining for that is... the thread was nearly full (which closes the thread) and now it is not. This gives me a chance to bump it up, so that it will be less likely to be dropped from the archives.

Please do not post new comments on this thread; rather, post them on the "Shelly Bean 2" thread started by Drloyd.

Since this thread no longer appears in search results, I am once more bumping it up, to keep it visible. As mentioned above, please do not post updates on this thread, but use Drloyd's "Shelly Bean 2" thread.