Hi George,

This is the bean that Zeedman calls "Ma Williams". I got my seed from Bill Best whose link you have above.

The plants never looked robust in our cool summer. There was never much foliage and I had little hope for them doing much. I never tried the snaps when young.

But when the fat pods turned their beautiful yellow and rose color, I found that I had a good crop of very fine beans. The large shellies are great and the pods remain tender until they dry. We eat them pod and all and string them at the table. This is probably my favorite bean. - Dick

Goose is a consistent heavy producer in the heat and humidity here in North Alabama. It is best used as a huge shelly bean when the pods turn a pale yellowish pink color. I did not like them as snaps, especially by comparison with some really good snap beans. I am planning on growing a row of them next year which is the 4th season since I last grew them.

Goose is among the more promiscuous beans in my garden. I have had up to 3% natural crosses when grown close to other varieties.

DarJones

Any input on this bean as a dry bean? Any pictures?

Well, I guess you can tell my working hours changed; I'm a night owl now. ;-)

This group photo from the "Unusual Vegetables" thread is the only one I have. The pink pods are "Ma Williams" at shelly stage:

To the best of my knowledge, there are several pole beans which are similar or identical. I originally found "Ma Williams" during a tour of the preservation gardens on Heritage Farm (Seed Savers Exchange). In subsequent visits, I observed "Goose" and "Pumpkin Bean", which appear to be identical. When I sent "Ma Williams" seed to Gardenlad, he compared it to his "Kentucky Goose", and said they also appear identical. The bean is rather unique, in the olive-green color of its dry seeds. I have never seen anything of this color in other P. vulgaris beans (although I do have an olive-green soybean).

Since I started growing "Ma Williams", I have only had one cross, which showed smaller, lighter seeds than usual (probably crossed with the white-seeded "Pole 191"). That was the first year that I saved seed, when my beans were separated by about 10 feet; I generally use at least 30 feet now, with barrier crops between.

Like Fusion, I found the snaps unremarkable... the strength of this bean is its use as a green shell, for which it is outstanding. It bears early for such a large-seeded pole shelly, at about 80 days. The ripe pods are not only beautiful, but shell easily. Provided that the vines are not too closely spaced, the yield will be heavy from top to bottom.

The seeds are grayish in shell stage, flattened, and about 7/8" long X 1/2" wide X 1/3" thick. Their skin is thin & tender, but does not crack easily when cooked. The flavor is rich, with a fine texture, unlike the "potatoey" taste & texture of most of the large shellies I have tried.

Also unlike most of my large pole shellies, the vines are quite rampant, and branch vigorously... but they should not be crowded. If there is one weakness to the variety(s), it is susceptibility to rust. This is most evident in cool, wet summers. Even then, the vines will generally produce a good crop. Good "bean hygiene" is helpful (not handling when wet), as is wider spacing (I thin to 12" apart). At that spacing, I get 5-6 main runners per plant.

I last grew "Ma Williams" in 2005... in recent years, it got "bumped" by trials of other shellies, and various bean preservation projects. Like Fusion, I plan to grow this bean again in 2009, to replenish both my seed stock & and my freezer. Oh yeah, and to take better photos!

Thanks for all the input! Anyone try this one as a dry bean?

Those are LARGE pods. No wonder DrLloyd says they are labor saving! I know, with the tender hulled beans we grow, I am pleased when I find a pod which gets large and "knobby." Those are the one which make the best eating.

George

I've got a gallon bag of Ma Williams from this year, if anyone wants a trade to try it. Got the seed from Zeedman. It looks exactly like the Blue Goose variety, a large olive green, angular like a cutshort, the same pinkish pod. I'd like to trade for some Buff Adzuki if anybody has some.
Recently I got some Wild Goose bean, however, and it is very different. This Wild Goose variety, one of those supposedly discovered in the crop of a wild goose, is tiny, flattish, about 1/4 inch across, nearly square, and brown flecked with darker brown. The Mostoller Wild Goose is said to look completely different as well.
No George I haven't tried them dry yet...saved them instead. But I can also tell you that Stewarts Zeebest Okra has done very well for me here, and I was able to save and trade seed from it. I leave it in the pod on the plant all winter, to be sure that it is mature by the time I pick it in spring!

Ah, Andy! How you TEMPT me! But, I need to resist. The question is how to fit everything I've already planned!

Andy, this would be a good time to bring a few of those okra pods inside, just in case. I know that okra will sometimes volunteer around here. But I don't know if it will well survive Wisconsin winters in the pod, especially if it gets wet. I'd play it safe. Glad to hear that Stewart's Zeebest did well for you.

George

>>I've got a gallon bag of Ma Williams from this year, if anyone wants a trade to try it.

Happyday, I would love some of those 'promiscuous' Goose beans! (species? P. vulgaris?) Please look at my trade list to see if there is something in there you would like? (add red and green amaranth seed, and wintergreen and spearmint to it, also basil seed, but no more pole beans).

Go on George, you know you want to. >:D You don't even have to isolate or save, just grow to eat. Just email me and remind me of your address and I'll send you some. >:D

Cabrita, do you have your email in your Gardenweb profile? I tried to email you and got an error msg each time. You can add it by going to the Members page and following the links. You could also click on my name and send me an email, including your email so I can contact back.

Here is a link that might be useful: Members page

George, we never did try them as a dry bean because the beautiful and delicious pods got used before they dried. Maybe next year.

Unlike Zeedman, I plan to do more growing of the kinds that did the best, and less trials. At least that is the plan - We'll see what is in the SSE Yearbook!

The dry seeds were small and not much to look at, unlike so many others that are very nice looking dry. - Dick

"Unlike Zeedman, I plan to do more growing of the kinds that did the best, and less trials."

Tempting... the thought has crossed my mind more than once to do the same. I already have more than enough proven varieties, I could just grow my favorites each year, and reduce the size of my garden substantially. But I'm on a mission... I love to explore the diversity available to us, and try to pass some of that precious heritage on to others.
One of my greatest joys is seeing varieties I've traded spreading further.

When I have a year that produces no new "keepers", I'll stop looking. Yeah, right! (lol) I'm having the time of my life! Part of the fun of being an heirloom gardener is knowing that you could never try them all in your lifetime. There are so many great varieties that are worthy of preservation, such as the beans we are discussing here.

I've hardly scratched the surface yet for dry beans, a project I expect to start in 2009.

Disclaimer: As a legumaniac, I'm not responsible for my actions. Beans Happen. More than one person on this forum suffers from this affliction (you know who you are). ;-)

Uh, Andy, I'll "think about it." Well, maybe I'll send you my address. If you send something, hey! What can I say?! I'll just have to plant those poor wandering little seeds!

Seriously, I do struggle over this. I'm happiest when I focus. My wife is definitely happiest when I focus. She really doesn't like it when half the plantings are off limits on account of seed production. I was attempting to address this very issue in the "Growing for the Longhaul" thread.

But like Zeedman mentions. It is really fun to grow new ones and great to get them into others' hands.

In regards to the Goose bean and its usage: I wonder about tastes and terms. For instance DarJones' standards are pretty clear. He prefers stringless and true snaps. If I were just going to snap a bean and eat it, then most of my favorites would no longer be favorites. I wonder if I should change terms and say "green beans?"

Since the Goose bean has a tender hull practically to the end, then I ask "Why shell the seed in order to eat it? Why not just string the pods and eat them seeds and all?"

George

"But I'm on a mission... I love to explore the diversity available to us, and try to pass some of that precious heritage on to others."

I and many others are grateful for the few gardeners like you who have that motivation, energy and perseverance to pursue that mission. Your work is tremendously valuable to the rest of us bean fanciers.

Jim

"Since the Goose bean has a tender hull practically to the end, then I ask "Why shell the seed in order to eat it? Why not just string the pods and eat them seeds and all?""

I must admit, the thought never occurred to me. Most of the beans I've tried become tough quickly, so I never considered eating beans whole after they had begun to fill out. Sounds like an experiment for next year.

George, good luck on your struggle. I'm here for you, buddy. Well, then again, maybe I'm not the right person to go to for support... I'd just ask you if there was any lawn left to dig up. ;-)

Happyday my email is:
rosetalleo@gmail.com

There is some sort of error on this site about emails, I did try to put it on my member page.
I will try emailing you as well.

I have the day off so I was out harvesting herb seeds and making a trellis for the king beans. Add lemon verbena to my list. I will probably add a wintergreen mint and some other basils tomorrow.

Okay, I think it's past now. I'll take a few deep breaths and get back to normal life. My wife and I chatted and she set me straight: "No more beans!" Well,... at least not for now.

Zeedman, you're a dealer, aren't you?!

Seriously, I have my own terminology for different kinds of seed savers. There are "regulars," who really only manage a limited number of varieties without getting things mixed up and lost. I'm one of those. Then there are "super stars." These are the few who can juggle A LOT MORE than the rest of us! I usually think of Glenn Drowns and his ilk, when I think of super stars. I do not mean that term to be demeaning, nor to idolize those who fit the profile. It's just that there are some who dedicate a lot more time and resources, perhaps being more organized as well, and maintain scads of varieties. Praise God for super stars!

On the other hand, I'd be happiest if there were thousands more of the "regulars." If every gardener grew, maintained, used and encouraged others to try just one heirloom or rare variety, I think our genetic diversity problem would be largely solved. (Enough of that soap box for now. I have to go!) See you all tomorrow!

George

I only grew 4 rows of beans this year, one row of Alabama #1, 1 row of Neckargold, 1 row of J. Potts Lima, and 1 row with 3 varieties (insuk's wang kong, Bird Egg #3, and Grandma's brown/gray). I have a lot more that need to be grown next year.

The good thing is that as a result of my growing, 3 varieties will be listed at sandhill next year. In addition, they will list Whipporwill, White Whipporwill, and Piggott's Family Heirloom peas from my garden.

DarJones

I hear you! besides our mainstain, Tennessee Cutshort, I would like to grow Childers Cutshort, Ruth Bible, Jimenez and this Greasy mix (Olde Timey Long Cut). I am trying to cross my Black Greasy with one of the Olde Timey Long Cut Greasy variations. That reminds me, I want to grow more of the pure Black Greasy, and someone sent me seed to the Mayflower Bean which I may grow. Fowler Bush bean is in desperate need of being renewed as is my white seeded Potomac. Yikes! I keep thinking of more!

George

Zeedman,

When I said I might do less trials, I meant something along the line of a dozen new beans instead of more than two dozen like this year! - Dick

george i would like to try the goose beans.i have rattlesnake
beans i could send you.
lillie

Lillie,

I don't actually have this bean. I just started the discussion : )

Try either the link for Sustainable Mountain Agriculture, up top, or contact Happyday, who has contributed to this thread. He said he would trade, and he has seed.

George

Rodger, I have been many years, evolving to Bill Best's standards. When my wife's great aunt and uncle first gave us seed for Tennessee Cutshort we had no idea of eating green beans any other way than very young and tender. We couldn't imagine why anyone would ever want a bean with strings. At first, the only extraordinary thing I noted about that particular bean was that it produced very early and made a lot of seed. I picked the pods young and, as was my custom, left the little tips on them. This didn't go over with the wife, as the tips were harder than other beans we knew. Only with the passing of years, and our tendency to try to use every usable pod, even if it did seem a little old, did we discover that this bean was way better if one left the pods to mature to the shelling stage. This meant letting it develop strings. When I first read what Bill had to say on his website it was a major "ah ha! moment" for me!

We had also grown Greasy beans. And again, we had tried to use them just like modern snaps. They worked okay. But wow! what a difference it makes when one understands how they have been traditionally used!

This is why I wonder if the Goose bean might actually be superior if eaten pod and all, at an advanced stage in development.

George

I didn't like Goose when it was at the shelly stage. Might just be me, but give them a try and you will know for sure. I did like them a lot as shellies. Incredible flavor and huge size make them well worth growing.

DarJones

Goose and Ma Williams appear to be identical except that Goose is a week or so earlier when grown side by side.

Goose is continuing it's tradition of sharing it's genes very freely. This year one vine has pods that are longer than other Goose pods and they are a color that has been described as "shocking pink." I have never seen such a color on a bean pod. Makes the Borlotto Solista look rather plain.

The Shocking Pink Goose vine is bearing heavily and in a day or so I plan to try them as shellies. If they are good, I will collect the seed.

Dick

Interesting observations, Drloyd. I believe that you had mentioned previously that "Goose" was earlier for you than "Ma Williams". This would seem to indicate that there is indeed some genetic difference between the two, despite the virtually identical appearance of their seed.

The "shocking pink" (or what I would interpret as being that color) is the norm for me with "Ma Williams"; see the photo earlier in this thread. Exposure to direct sunlight seems to intensify this color, but some years it is brighter than others. The color was less vivid when I last grew them in 2009:

Are the pods for "Goose" colored differently? If so, there may be even more differences between the two. Could you post a photo?

Zeedman the Goose pods have always looked identical to the Ma Williams that I have grown and similar to your photos. This sport is very different.

By shocking pink I mean a very bright neon pink or hot magenta or fuchsia. This is a very strange color for a bean pod. I will try to get a photo while they still look like that.

Dick

Here is a link that might be useful: Shades of pink

Dick could you save seed of that shocking pink, would be fun to try to reproduce it!

Happyday the shellies are thin skinned with good flavor and texture. I plan to see if they will stabilize next year. I should be able to spare you a few seeds if you want to try them.

Dick

I've never grown Goose so can't compare. A picture of my Ma Williams direct seeded June 11, they look very much like the ones in Zeedman's pic. Had a few shellies for dinner, very tasty. I'll pick the rest for seed in a few days.

Ma Williams shellies, not many tho, I'm leaving the rest for seed.

Neon Goose and regular Goose.

Wow!

Have you tried looking at that Neon Goose under a black light?

I second that :).

The red markings closely resemble these:

"Bird Egg #3", "Canon City", and "Portugal" all have similar markings, and my guess is that some of the Borlottos do as well. "Goose" may have crossed with one of them. I'd be curious to see what the shellies & dry seed from this plant look like.

Since the cross (if it is one) is most likely with another large shelly, it could prove to be interesting. It might be worthwhile to grow some of the seed next year under isolation, to see if the new qualities can be stabilized (this might take several years). I'd be happy to attempt it if you get enough seed to spare a few.

Zeedman, Borlotto Solista also has has brilliant red pods that really stand out. I grow them in one corner of the garden so people passing by can enjoy them.

But these things almost do look like they should glow in the dark.

The shellies are shaped somewhat like Goose but they are pale purple with maroon streaks. - Dick

As Bill Best has said, Goose is very prone to sharing DNA. He has arranged to grow them in complete isolation to keep the strain as pure as possible. I do not give them the kind of isolation they need so I do not offer the seed in trades.

Anyway, when Neon Goose appeared, I saved the seeds and grew a row of them. A few of the offspring looked just like the Neon Goose parent. Most did not and there was an amazing variety. Here is a selection of the shellies

- Dick

Great looking mix, Dick are you going to keep selecting and growing your 'Neon Goose'? That's one pretty bean.

Annette

Hi Annette. No, I am planning to give up on that project for now. All those shellies above are the offspring of a single Neon Goose plant. It was a fun project and I enjoyed shelling them, but I am concerned that they cross so much that they might interfere with some bean projects planned for next year. Increasing Red Eye Greasy seed and developing a black seed greasy for example. - Dick

In the F2 generation of a cross, you would expect to see a portion of the seed resemble the original parents. The photo of the seeds seems to confirm that one of the parents was a Borlotto-type bean.

There are some really interesting possibilities in this cross. I wish I had time & space to pursue this, but at present, I don't. :-(

This is what we call 'Goose Bean' (aka Estill County Bean) here in E Central KY (located probably 45 min drive from Bill best in Berea). I'm 58 and my Dad and his neighbor were growing this variety as long as I can remember. Last time I grew them was probably 2001 - 2002 maybe? (man time flies). Anyhoo, these seed have been vacuumed sealed and kept refrigerated for at least a decade now, I think I'll grow them again for 2013.

The photos showing the pink coloration of the mature pods are exactly what these look like at that stage. The pods stay tender and good to eat, we love 'shelly beans' pods and all.

Ma Williams is almost identical to Goose except that Ma Williams is a week or two later and it does not have the reputation for crossing.

Zeedman, the large off-white beans with maroon or purple markings look very much like Bingo. Bingo pods are also almost as bright in color as Neon Goose. Bingo is a favorite as it is one of the earliest pole shellies and mine are still producing.

If I had a second garden some distance away I would continue to grow this mix. Maybe one of my kids who is not a seed saver would do that.

Sid, yes, the Goose pods are edible until they start to dry. - Dick

I agree with Richard that Bingo is one good bean
Very productive and excellent shell bean
Speckled Cranberry is very simular and is equqly productive
Charlie

This is an image of Bingo

This is SPECKLED CRANBERRY

When Goose crosses with another variety, in which direction does it cross? With goose as pollen parent, goose as pod parent, or both?

In other words, which seed will not come true to type? Goose, the other variety or both.

I would like to grow Goose and would be willing to forgo usable seed of it (for a couple of years anyway) but I would not like my other beans to be crossed up.

Jim

Hi Jim. Goose appears to primarily collect pollen from other varieties. I have not seen evidence of Goose making donations. For example, it appears that Bingo donated pollen to Goose but there are no signs of Bingo collecting any from Goose resulting in unusual looking Bingo pods. - Dick

"...Anyone try this one as a dry bean?....

George"

Yes I have, last time I grew them I had waaaaaay too much dried for seed; it makes an outstanding 'soup bean'.

Larry.