I forgot to ask this...How many parts,if any, of the native soil should be incorporated into the mix?

. . . a soil you came up with, hmmm? It looks amazingly like one I've been using and posting the recipe for, for several years. What a coincidence.

Al

Yes Al, I did get the idea from you. I am new to japanese maples and didn't mean to sound like I was taking credit for it. I was actually hoping for a clarification. I am confused on how many parts of each. How much native soil to use and if there is a cheaper alternative for turface. I have 10 pounds of turface but was going to save for my containers because I ended up paying $1 a pound or more after shipping. Thanks

I'm not sure what your native soil is like, but the Turface isn't ALL that important in raised beds.
Try mixing with a spade fork:
6 native soil
3 pine fines
2 reed/sedge/Michigan peat (or compost)
2 sphagnum peat
1-2 sand if you think you need it
dolomitic lime
(not for containers)

FYI: Schultz Soil Conditioner is Turface MVP in Schultz's packaging @ less than $10 for 25 lbs.

Good luck.

Al

Thanks Al, sounds good. We just got a new home and I am not sure what the soil is like but I imagine it is not good in this area,Virginia. I have 6 JP's ready to go in the ground this week. I hope the ground isn't solid clay. I will post some pics once they leaf out.

is peat really needed? It's not something I'd use (or recommend) for bed or incorporating into the soil.

In fact, I never used peat moss for my azalea bed at all which happens to sit directly on top of caliche (limestone) soil. I've used a mixture of topsoil, lava sand (generous amount), bit of greensand and cedar flakes. After 3 years, they seem to be happy in that mix. Every year, I mulch the bed with aged hardwood mulch.

From what I understand, clay type soil can benefit more from the peat?

Nope. It's the compost.

and a lot of organic matter from leaves, compost, mulch, etc will greatly improve the clay soil. It just takes time as long as you practice organic meaning you cannot use chemical fertilizer, any products that ends with icide because they tend to ruin soil biology that is responsible for turning sticky compacted clay soil into wonderful fluffy easy to work with clay soil.

I think we're kind of splitting hairs here. There really can be no objection over the inclusion of the reed/sedge peat, so I assume you're referring to the sphagnum. Since it only amounts to about 1/8 of the soil, and it IS organic matter, how much additional advantage could there be to use compost in its stead? Not much - and if the compost is not finished, I'd mount an argument that it's a better choice, so I guess there are a few 'ifs' and different perspectives.

Here is a picture of the soil I described after 5 years in a raised bed.
{{gwi:871}}
As you can see, this one does have the Turface component clearly visible. From a cursory glance, you can see it has wonderful tilth and should (it does) support plenty of soil biota, both visible and invisible. It's been an extremely productive medium for the woody material I'm growing on as potential bonsai - including trident, hedge, and Japanese maples.

Al

Al,

Would there be a a different container mix if the plan is to eventually plant in the ground? Lets say I am growing a variety of trees from seed and plan to grow them to varying sizes from plugs to 5 gallon pots, would I use your basic mix you have posted before or would I need to make some changes?

I don't understand the question, but the mix in the picture and the recipe I offered on this thread would be inappropriate for use in containers. It would hold too much water. For all my containerized trees I use some minor variation of:

1 part conifer bark fines or fine fir bark
1 part Turface
1 part crushed granite (granite chicken or turkey grit)
gypsum
a micronutrient supplement

It's an excellent tree soil. It remains well aerated and structurally sound for a long, long time.

Al

Sorry for being a part of the piggy-back, Matt. You should start your own thread, rather than piggy-back on Matt's, ltruet.

I just wanted to say I found a mix at Home Depot that is called "soil conditioner". It looks like it is mostly aged pine fines with some gypsum. The bag says "clay breaker" or something like that. These are the soil components I was able to locate. I will continue looking for more. Its takes time to find everything mentioned here. I will list my sources in case anyone wondered or can recommend a better source than ebay.

pine fines bark (local nursery)
dolomitic lime (tractor supply company)
spagnum moss (Lowes)
turface (ebay)
large chicken grit (tractor supply company)
soil conditioner-Aged pine bark with gypsum (Home Depot)

Don't buy Turface or crushed granite from e-bay, Matt. It's just way too expensive after the shipping. What kind of volume are you making? How big/deep are the beds? Where do you live - nearest large city? I have bonsai connections all over the US & perhaps I can help you find what you need if you can be patient while the wheels turn.

Al

I will only be planting about 6 trees in ground this year and maybe 4 more next year then maybe 2-4 in pots. I maybe do several more in pots if I start grafting to give to my mom,friends,family,etc. I definitely don't need huge amounts but I haven't had any luck getting crushed granite local in more than 5 pound bags. Turface could only find on ebay unless I go 2.5-3 hours away down to richmond. I live in Winchester,Virginia. Its about 1.5 hours west of washington, d.c.

My beds are just individual trees at the moment and not too deep. I just dig a circle with a 5 foot diameter( for a 3-5 gallon pot) and go down about a foot. I end up amending the soil below the tree with half the soil around the tree in a raised position with much of the root ball actually above ground level because our drainage isn't great(mostly clay).

For Turface:

Landscape Supply, Inc. Locations:

Roanoke
(800) 876-2151

Midlothian
(804) 754-3590

Charlottesville
(434) 979-8873

Williamsburg
(757) 253-8873

Richmond
(804) 754-3590

Pennington Seed
Kenbridge
(434) 480-1022

Turf & Garden Locations:
Chesapeake
(757) 543-2071

Chester
(804) 748-4600

Grafton
(757) 898-4100

Suffolk
(757) 638-0132

If you can't find crushed granite for containers (did you inquire at elevators & farm feed stores?) Try coarse silica sand from a swimming pool (filter sand) supply store or a masonry supply store. It should be already screened and larger than 1/16" (half BB size) to be useful. You can use fine sand in raised beds.

You shouldn't be amending the planting holes with anything, especially in clay soils - even if the root mass is elevated. The bathtub effect STILL kills roots soaking in the soup under the tree after a rain, and it takes soo much energy to regenerate the rootage while the tree often suffers drought stress symptoms.

Al

Hmm, I am a little confused now. How would you advise me to plant JP's in clay soil? I was under the impression that as long as it was wide and shallow that the ammendments such as the gypsum would compensate for the clay and help break it down.
thanks,Matt

Whenever you amend a planting hole in clay soils, it fills (can fill) with water during periods of rain, which makes for extended periods of anaerobic conditions in the rhizosphere - it rots roots. You reduce the likelihood of that occurring by back-filling with native soil only, or growing in a raised bed.

Planting high is good, but many of the roots will grow into your amended 'bowl'. Even if the saturated condition of the bowl you're creating does not kill the plant, it will kill some roots. It is costly for the tree to expend its energy to replace the roots lost to rot or a lack of O2. Root damage/death causes the tree to recognize roots as a very powerful energy sink and the tree then uses valuable stored or translocated energy/photosynthate that could have gone to either increased biomass or storage for the winter rest (depending on the time of year root damage occurs) to regenerate roots. This is very expensive for the plant from an energy management perspective.

Al

Thanks for all your help Al, you have been very informative. I guess the question now is...
Is it worth having a raised bed or not? I would imagine a raised bed maple would be more susceptible to cold?

I'm also a bit confused: are you supposed to use that soil mixture to create a raised mound, plant the maple in that, and simply have loosened the native soil beneath and around? (I also have clay soil.)

Matt - Sure it's worth having a raised bed. You can easily build the soil you want & not worry about drainage.

If plants in raised beds are more susceptible to cold, it's likely imperceptible to us. Heat is conducted & radiated up from the earth & the sides are usually wood or masonry & offer some small degree of insulation from the very little additional surface area exposed to cold.

J - Raised beds usually have sides of some type. Eg: Mine are 4' x 8' x 7" deep and are constructed of 4 x 4s stacked two high, overlapped at the joints & lagged together. I have 8 of these altogether. In two places I have 3, end-to-end so the 3 beds touch & are 4'w x 24' long. In the other area, I have 2, end-to-end, 4'w x 16' long.

If you have clay, construct the beds right on top of it & allow the soil fauna to naturally add aeration to the clay below.

Al

Thanks, Al. But I have in mind the planting of tiny J. maples -- like 10" 1-year babies. Could I just create a mound of the mixture maybe 3 or 4 feet across, and plant them in that? I was thinking they might get a good start from the mounds, and then grow into the native soil as it becomes better (I have been adding organic matter several times a year to all my tree plantings). But raised beds aren't practical for my property. Do you think this method is preferable, or should I simply plant on raised mounds of native soil?

I wouldn't - unless you are trying to create an exposed root planting. The organic component of the soil will disappear within a few years, leaving the roots & basal parts of the tree exposed. You'll then need to lift/replant, replace the soil that once was the mound, or live with the exposed roots (which can be interesting, btw).

Al