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Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

Posted by nikkie_in_toronto (My Page) on
Wed, Mar 7, 07 at 12:11

I just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas for me... I have a Golden Dawn about 15ft tall and wanted to create some color around the base with a few acer palmatums that could gradually grow into each other to create a variation of spring/summer color. I have thought about using an Inaba Shidare or Tamukeyama (I already have a Crimson Queen) along with possibly a Murasaki Kiyohime (which I really like) and something else???? Obviously I don't want anymore yellow, preferably some reds, greens or variegated varieties. I'd consider a dwarf or laceleaf green, but I have a Viridis and it doesn't impress me all that much. Does anyone have any opinions on the varieties mentioned above, or others that might be small, attractive and fairly hardy below 0F/-18C. Thank you everyone...


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

I would like to recommend 'baldsmith'. I don't yet have personal experience with this cultivar and I'm not familiar with it's cold hardiness. However, I think 'baldsmith' might be a good compliment to the lime green/yellow 'Ogon' and a red laceleaf like you mentioned. From what I can tell leaves have a lighter orangish red when the 'inaba shidare' and 'tamukeyama' are purpleish red. In summer it changes to a pinkish green according to all the sources I've seen.

'butterfly's blueish green leaf color along with its variegated pink/cream might be interesting against the darker purple and red JMs and the yellow green of the 'Ogon'.

'Garnet' is another possibility for a purple/red dissectum, it has a more orange/red fall color though.


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 7, 07 at 21:05

What about a purple beech such as Fagus Sylvatica 'Purple Pendula' or 'Tortuosa Purpurea'. Both would ad contrasting color and shape. David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

Thank you for the suggestions... I'd love to use more Beeches David, I just don't have the room in this area. There is also an Abies koreana Silberlocke and a Pinus wallichiana Frosty in the bed. All are spaced about 10-12ft away from each other. I've never heard of Baldsmith, but I will look it up... I do like Garnet, now that you reminded me about it... While we are on the subject, maybe it's just old eyes, but I have a real problem telling the differences in many of the red dissectums. Can anyone explain the differences to me. Does one hold the red better than the others? I've been very happy with my Crimson Queen. I'd like to plant another red dissectum, but I'm in the city so want to make the right choices, because I worry about running out of space.


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

'Baldsmith' is an excellent choice! It is a great contrast and compliment to both red and green dissectums as it blends the coloration of both and typically offers multiple colors on the foliage throughout the growing season. Here, where weeping laceleaf Japanese maples are a fixture in virtually every garden, I prefer it above nearly all the other common forms. The attached link is a terrible photo - it does NO justice to the form of this great little tree - but it does offer a good indication of foliage color.

It's not your eyes :-) A good many of the red laceleafs are very tricky to tell apart from each other and sometimes the differences are so slight it requires a JM expert to make the distinction. Some cultivars do hold color better, others have more or less pronounced dissection, and yet others offer different spring/fall color or a more upright growth habit. There are no right or wrong choices - only those that appeal to you and fit your requirements. A good JM text like Vertrees or vanGelderen can help with the research and decision-making. I personally prefer vanGelderen ("Maples for Gardens") as it has much better photos.

Here is a link that might be useful: Acer palmatum 'Baldsmith'


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 8, 07 at 18:55

Hi Nikkie,

There are several beech cultivars that grow slower than my palmatums. Go to Coenosium Gardens and check out their section on fagus. 'Purpurea Nana', 'Ansorgii' and 'Purple Pendula' are all slow and 'Tortuosa Purpurea' can almost be grown prostrate based on the pictures I have seen. It would look nice at the base of Ogon. As far as palmatums go I like the 'Orangeolas' I have seem and I have been told good things about 'Red Dragon". If you want an up right Red the 'Empirer 1's' I have seen even late in the year have had nice color. David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

You would prob be ok with either Inaba Shidare or Tamukeyama in your area ...I would probabably stay away from Murasaki K...and I am not sure Baldsmith will be hardy enough but it may ...If I were you I would consider doing containers and then you have hundreds to pick from including the Murasaki...they can easily be stored in your unheated garage or shed during the winter ...I'm just not sure what your zone is but I'd bet it is 4 something which is a bit north for all but a few JM's even with protection...just my opinion but I remeber my few visits to Toronto during the early winter were NOT temperate ;>) David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

I guess I hadn't conceptualized beech and dwarf together. That is a definite possibility. I'm going to do some research on them and see what I can find. I have a nice Japanese maple nursery about one hour from home and he does have some beech too. I'll have to call him. Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a problem distinguishing the red palmatums... I've seen Red Dragon and it certainly does seem to hold its color well in summer. I'm intrigued with this Baldsmith now and hope I can find one. I was told Tamukeyama holds the best summer color, but I haven't paid close attention. Orangelo is a possibility... So many choices... I'm so confused now... Thanks though!


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

I'm not sure about which of the red dissectums holds it color better, because it depends on the environment that it is placed in.

One somewhat noticable difference in several of the reds is the habit. 'Tamukeyama' has a bit of a wild upright falling type of habit, while 'Inaba shidare' has more of a gracefull uniform drooping habit IMO. My 'Garnet' has a very mounded tight habit while my 'Tamukeyama' is very airy and open inside.

The leaves of 'Tamukeyama' are more like ribbons with teeth, while 'Garnet's leaves are much more dissected. I think 'Crimson Queen' is somewhere between the two. I have no personal experience with 'red dragon' yet, but from pictures it seems it has a habit closer to that of 'inaba shidare'.

I guess I'm rambling on but the point is that it is worth looking into the habits and leafshape if you really need the best choice for your landscape. However, if you just want a beautiful red dissectum, any of these would be great choices IMO :)


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

Toronto is a zone 6, David. A northerly latitude is not necessarily an indicator of a low zone - Seattle's latitude is 47N, locating it further north than any other major city in the continental US (Toronto is only a 43N latitude) and yet we are a mild zone 8 with some areas achieving a zone 9 rating. Topography and proximity to large bodies of water can have a very moderating effect on climate. Pretty much any Japanese maple can grow and thrive in Toronto and its environs.


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by botann z8 SEof Seattle (My Page) on
    Fri, Mar 16, 07 at 16:14

I can't see using a Japanese Maple with a Beech either. Just when the maple is looking it's best, the Beech will look like it's dead, covered in brown leaves that trickle off all winter. Yuk!


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

Well thanks to everyone's help and suggestions, at the current time I'm leaning towards a Red Dragon and Baldsmith, along with something else. I know the maple guy has both of them. He said that he believes Red Dragon (especially) and Tamukeyama hold the red better than the others. I'm hoping he will have some low grafts because I don't want anything too tall. I'm still also leaning towards the murasaki kiyohime for the other one, just to give a different leaf texture, but if I see something else that catches my eye I'm apt to change my mind... Thanks everyone.. anyother suggestions are still appreciated. :)


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 19, 07 at 13:07

If you would consider a green dissectum 2 of the best are Filigree and Green Cascade. Green cascade is a japonicum with great fall color. I have a 18-24" wide Murasaki Kiyohime and it is one of my favorite palmatums but I can't see using it in front of a yellow dawn redwood which I also have. Using Green Cascade in combination with a red dissectum and Baldsmith or Orangeola would give nice color combinations and differences. There is also the option of a variegated dissectum but I have been told they are hard to grow. Also look at Beni Ubi Gohon. David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

David- Hi I think you are probably correct that the murasaki kiyohime would be best situated somewhere else and I should go with 3 dissectums. There are just so many choices that I'm overwhelmed. In regards to the variegated dissectums, I already have Toyama Nishiki which has done surprisingly well for me, though I was told it was marginal here. It is very sheltered though under some hemlocks, but the color is outstanding and it has now grown to about 4ft x 3ft. I know where I can get a good sized Goshiki shidare, but I'm worried about the hardiness and the amount of sun it might get (too much). Do you know if goshiki shidare is any more/less hardy than toyama nishiki. I've never heard of Beni Ubi gohon, but I will look it up... I guess I'll make up my mind for good when I go to the maple nursery in a few weeks... Thanks!


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 19, 07 at 19:52

I don't know if one is hardier than the other and some of the things I have read on the net seems to indicate that some of the variegated dissectums have been mixed up in the trades. Who did you get your Toyama Nishiki from? I got one from ebay and it is all green. It is a very nice dissectum but all green. I have been told this is a problem by reputable east cost maple nursery also as they said all their graft tend to revert to green. I
David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

David- My Toyama Nishiki is in almost full shade and has a lot of white mixed with the green. I got my plant from a local nursery and I'm almost positive that the plant originally came from Bucholz. It is probably one of my favorite. I honestly can't tell the difference between Toyama Nishiki and Goshiki Shidare, but of course that doesn't say much because I can't tell the difference in many of the red dissectums.


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 20, 07 at 0:13

Nikkie-For most people there are few differences in the red dissectums that have been mentioned above. Many of the maple collectors on this site can tell the difference but thats about it. I talked to a wholesale grower in Oregon last year who had several of the different Red dissectum cultivars and he said one of his client wanted to purchase a large number of them and have them all tagged the same, as red dissectum. He didn't like it but thats what the market's view is. 'Red Filigree lace' on the other hand is different as it has much finer leaves. I also think the 2 Green Dissectums I mentioned have noticable differences.

As far as the the variegated dissectum goes, If it came from Bucholz it should be the correct plant. Since it is doing so well for you I am going to have to give it a try also. David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

It is not typical to include 'Green Cascade' under the heading of a dissectum. Technically, the term "dissectum" is reserved to describe a recognized group of A. palmatum cultivars, all of garden origin, that share similar characteristics distinct from other forms of palmatum. All are mushroom shaped trees, indicating a weeping habit and while some can grow rather tall, all tend to be significantly wider than tall. All are characterized by finely dissected leaves, cleft to the leaf base. The group is subdivided into 3 recognized subgroups based on leaf color.

Under this definition, 'Green Cascade' and other highly cut leaf forms of Acer japonicum or other maple species are not considered "dissectums".


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Tue, Mar 20, 07 at 11:01

Hi Gardengal48,

Technically you are right but for all practical purposes and for this duscussion lumping it in with the dissectums was fine in my view. Besides I noted it was a japonicum and the vast majority of people who look at that plant are going to consider it a dissectum. The same thing happens when people ask for recommendations on Japanese maples. We often recommend acer Shirasawanum, Japonicum and Sieboldianum along with palmatum cultivars. David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

David, you should definitely get a Toyama Nishiki. It's such a beautiful plant. It looks very delicate, but after this winter I can tell that it is hardier than I had expected. If it does well for me, I'm sure you will have good luck in a warmer zone. I think full shade is best for it though. I've seen another one that is in part shade and by the middle of the summer the white had burned. 1-2 hours of mid day sun is the max mine gets. By the way, some good news today: I talked with my friend at the maple nursery and he has 2 really nice Baldsmiths and he is holding one for me. He said it was one of his favorites and the color change was just amazing... I'm looking forward to picking out the other two in a few weeks. I'm really getting anxious to get back outside!


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

When you get it I would love to see pictures. I want one but I'll have to wait as rare cultivars are non existant down in my area, and I've already surpassed my buying limit this spring :(


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Wed, Mar 21, 07 at 8:47

Baldsmoth and orangeola both have colors that you need to see before purchasing. I like them both bur some may not. Check out World Plants website. They have excellent photos of all the Japanese maple cultivars that have been discussed. David


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RE: Acer palmatums with Metasequoia 'Ogon'

Yes, I have purchased several trees from them. The packaging is usually below par...but they're selection is outstanding for a collector.


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