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Wholesale slaughter????

Posted by bkfisher z5 IN (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 6, 07 at 19:18

Here in central Indiana we're about half-way through this brutal cold-snap with the worst yet to come tonight and tomorrow night. In spite of covering the majority of my maples, things don't look good. You know what your lettuce looks like after it freezes and re-thaws??? That's what some of the foliage on my trees look like.

I didn't cover my Bloodgood as I mistakenly thought it would be hardier than the rest. Wrong! It's not pretty right now.

Even perennials like Clematis, Coral Bells, Delphinium, etc. are taking a beating.

I'm concerned because all of my maples were planted last season and are fairly young. One, a Seiryu was just planted two weeks ago and was leafing out nicely(shipped from Va.).

Question: Given their age and relatively short time in the ground, what should I expect in the way of new foliage and even survival???

BKFisher


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think they'll be ok. I have quite a few in the ground, several in glazed pots & nursery pots, & they look fine (although it's early to assess any damage). They made it through the winter just fine, this is just a weather blip for them, I hope.
What's really amazing to me is that I planted up a few containers a few days before the cold weather with euphorbias, dahliettas, fragaria, lithiodora, & violas-tried to cover them, but the covers blew off-they look great-I knew I was taking a chance buying dahlias this early, but I think almost all my perennials look ok.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Fri, Apr 6, 07 at 20:59

Hi BK,

I feel your pain as they are forecasting 20F tonight and 22 tomorrow night after many of my asian maples have leafed out. I don't know if it will do any good but I covered many of my Japanese maple and dug 2 that I put in the ground last year that would be hard and expensive to replace. For the smaller ones I tied them up to make them more narrow and put a tomato cage around them and them put a paper leaf bag over that. It should add some protection. Unfortunately of all the plant is my garden Japanese maple are ones most likely damaged from late frost. David


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It's a good question and we will all find out in a couple of weeks..I assume all the new leaves and shoots are toast period the question is will they send out secondary shoots and I believe the answer is yes... but you are right... now it is NOT pretty ..I covered nost of mine but many it was a day late cause the weather man last Tues forecast mid to upper 30's but at 8am it was 26 degrees and I didn't cover ...but have each night since ...most of my stuff had leaved out cause of that stinkin march warm spell ...my stuff usually hasn't even broken bud by now!!! and most is damaged some strangly wasn't even uncovered at mid 20's each night ...BTW one was a Seiryu...another a Orange dream which is renown to be fragile...go figure...I will report more LTR ... It could get real bad if we get teens tonight as predicted ...the covers won't help much after so many cold days and nights ... But we are all in the same boat and if this... God forbid... ever happens again we will all be experts.... David


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I'd say if your trees are small enough bring them in if at all possible because they might not have enough stored sugars in the roots to send out sufficient new shoots. However, they may have produced enough sugars this spring (or not used all of the reserves over winter) to get at least a few small shoots out.

Unfortunately, I would expect your small ones to grow much less this spring if they lose all there new growth.


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I think you'll be surprised what these plants can endure - they are far tougher than we tend to give them credit for.

Retail nurseries in my area operate all 12 months of the year. Most are out in the open without any kind of protection available for plants that are considered "hardy". And while I do live in a zone that most consider very mild, we do get extended cold periods (20's and teens) in winter. This year we received several, including one that was quite early. All our containerized maples breezed through them without problems. Granted, these trees were dormant or almost so at the time, but nonetheless, their roots were still semi-exposed to bitterly cold weather.

A late freeze or cold spell is unlikely to affect soil conditions significantly and trees planted in the ground and well hydrated before the freeze should be fine. It is quite possible you will experience foliar damage and even some tip dieback, but the trees should survive relatively unscathed. They will refoliate (maples can do this several times during the growing season without significant damage) and growth this season may be slow, but the trees themselves should be fine. Same with the perennials - root hardiness will be unaffected unless borderline for your zone.


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I think GG is correct if the tree made it through last winters horrible conditions it will survive and shoot out new leaves although (I can tell you most of mine had shot or partially shot leaves that are toast from the unusual warm spell )...I would be on guard for stress and associated disease especially fungal since if the pattern continues this summer will be really hot and humid in the mid west. As I have stated the cold snap is NOT that unusual ...its duration IS and the hot spell in march and its duration IS which is the real culprit here!!! David


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Asian Maples have a secondary set of buds, but unfortunately they don't develop until either the foliage is pruned off for mid to late summmer grafting, bonsai pruning or they emerge during fall for next years predetermined growth.

Two things can happen, they will: A) survive the coldspell, or B) die from the coldspell.

I can attest from having worked locally and discussed with many plantsmen and plantswomen, that Asian Maples can easily be killed (large plants, small plants) as a result of unusual spring weather circumstances.

I came across an article this morning written by the Universtity of Illiois Extention Service, detailing, what can happen during prolonged heatspells followed by prolonged coldspells.

I've posted this several times today already as a result of my being involved in other threads discussing the same/similar topic.

Good Luck! I need some luck here myself.

Dax

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Illinois Extention - Watch Out Gardeners, the Chill Is On!


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  • Posted by ezochi z5 north IL (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 7, 07 at 13:30

We were discussing how to cover this stuff earlier. The bad news here in northern Illinois (naybe all of Illinois) is that the cold snap is predicted to last longer. Even when the highs reach the 40's next week (after Monday) the lows will be below freezing--the latest being in the upper 20's!! I've been checking my JM's every single day and they are in budding stage --not leafed out. I myself do not want to risk covering them being afraid that the branches will get damaged. So far they look okay. Will this temp swing be fatal is my question? I envy the PNW gorwers where I originally come from where they are having record highs.


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If you trees haven't broken bud I doubt you will have much damage AT ALL ...heck they lived through this terrible winter... some of the more advanced buds may bite the dust but consider yourself VERY VERY lucky... as further south it is a much differnt picture with NOT much differnt weather ...grape growers are esimating a 70% loss of crop yield ... As far as JM's we will see I think Dax's post is overly pessimistic but we are in unchartered territory I tend to think most will survive but need to be watched for a bit ...David


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  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 7, 07 at 15:50

My only reference point is from the mid 90's when we got down to around 20F after everything had pushed. A japanses dissectum I had planted the year before lost about 50% of it's branches so I am concerned. After all this I hope everyone that was effected by this weather reports in on what japanese maple cultivars did OK and what was killed or severally damaged. From what I have been told from several people one of the toughest cultivars is Koto-no-ito. I left mine unprotected so we will see. 2-3 more cold night and we should be back to some more seasonal weather. David


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I am with Dax on this one. There are, at this time, no secondary buds formed on your maples. What you hope is that some buds have not pushed yet or that some of the leaves and shoots that are damaged are only partially damaged in that they can still survive or function and if sugars, nurtrients and hormonal signals are received from the roots, that new buds can be formed and the tree lives. Honestly, this is very uncommon with small plants. A moderate to total kill of new growth and shoots due to frost is usually a death wish for the plant. There is just not enought left of the plant to bridge the gap to survial. You are best suited to qickly prune once you can identify the damage so that any available energy is sent to the most viable area of the tree.

In zone 7, where I am, we get late frosts, but they are the kind that usually cause parital damage to leaves and shoots and not destroy leaves and shoots totally. While we may have lost the majority of the growing season, in summer we can usually see new growth and identify what shoots have died. This can be a freeze in the high 20's during leaf out and expansion. When you start to talk low 20's, and especilally if there is wind, you are talking big trouble and those little plants are high risk.

One idea that is used for citus is heeling in as such you mound dirt bark or humus or some other very dense protective structure up to a point above the graft so that you include some viable buds. Then you less densely protect the upper part of the tree. If all goes terribly, hopefully you can purne back to that last ditch set of buds for a recovery. This easy with smaller plants. Hollow out a big wide nursery container, cut out the bottom, fasten it around the tree and fill it with insulating material.

Anyway.....it doesn't look good in my eyes, but do what you can. Good Luck.


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I think MJh is correct but only to a degree ...that degree is how far along the leafing is...if it has just started I feel the secondaries will probably pop but if it is fully leafed it may be another matter ...Also it probably depends on how old the tree is and how established it is as to how much sugars and viability is in it ... but this is all conjecture .The really strange thing is the farther north you are the better ( no bud break yet) ... and to a degree the farther south you are it would be worse.( similar temps but full leaf out!!).we will know more in a few weeks ..David


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I live just west of Atlanta and I have 2 maples in my front yard, a Osakazuki and a Red Emperor. I tried to protect them with black garbage bags but it didn't help. It got down to the mid 20s Sat. night and the wind blew the bags loose during the night. Both were fully leafed out and the leaves now are totally limp and wilted. I'm hoping that they can pull through this.

Last summer, the Osakazuki lost all it's leaves due to the high temps and lack of rain, but they came back again in the fall. Maybe the same thing will happen this time.

I have a Peaches and Cream and a Shin Dehojo(?) in containers that I put in the garage during this. They are both fully leafed out and still beautiful. They're going back on the front porch Tuesday.


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Another report from the southeast.
I live just northeast of atlanta, my maples have been in full leaf for several weeks.
I managed to get my smaller pots (~250) inside, but my big ones and the ones in the ground got hit hard saturday night. As Chris says, we will be experts with this.
The strap leave and dissected maples are toast. I had a 6ft purple ghost in a pot, that doesnt look happy. Bloodgood, Ozaksuki, Wilsons Pink Dwarf, Chisio, Shindoshjo, Crimson Queen, Inabe Shidare, Beni Otake, Sangu Kaku, Moonfire, Fireglow, Pixie, Red Dragon, Kara su Gawa, Sieryu, Kinran, and others i cant remember at this time, we will see first hand how this trees handle a total loss of spring leaves.
There are always dormant bud all along the trunk and limbs not just at the shoot tips and leaf nodes. Its just a question of having energy to push them.
I think we will need to really try and keep optimal conditions for this maples over the next several weeks and months. Any stress, disease or water stress(dry or wet) will not be good.
The larger ones will have a better shot than smaller ones with less reserves.

Thank goodness i spent 5 hours moving all of the 1-3 gals inside.

Mike


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Follow up:

I spoke today w/ a local extension agent associated with Purdue University. He seemed cautiously optimistic, given the health of the tree(s) that they would recover.

He did suggest a cup(for smaller trees) of urea spread evenly around the root zone of the plant. When I pressed him about Japanese Maples being "slow feeders" he stuck to his guns on dosing them with this high nitrogen based fertilizer. Take it for what it's worth. I've included a link to the article which includes quotes from the agent I spoke with.

bkfisher

Here is a link that might be useful: Purdue Article


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Well I live in Woodstock, just north of atlanta. Our huge (unknown species but 20 years old and 15' tall) Jap Maple got nailed by the frost. It had full leaf out and now they are all dead as well as last years new growth!!!! I had no idea this could happen. I have 5 other recent transplants in the ground all leaves are goners! Oh well live and learn hoepfully they all survive!


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I will have a full report in a few days but many of mine are badly damged but the ones that had not unfurled their leaves but right at that piont seem fine ...and thats with at least one 26 degree uncovered night then somewhat covered low 20's to mid 20's for 5 nights and days about 30-32...So I think those in zones that hadn't leafed out are likely OK reguarless...some of mine heated up under the tarps and had alreadt started putting out new good looking leaves ( not many but a few ) the trees that look the worst (as a group) are the dissectums even those covered but they looked toasted and worst as a group even after that first weatherman screw up uncovered night !!! David


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I live in North Carolina, closer to the South Carolina boarder, and all my in ground JM's, the fruit trees, grape vines, crapes, magnolias, ect. are destroyed...a total wash...and it breaks my heart. I managed to move the 3 to 5 gallon JM's inside the house, and put the 10+ gallons inside the shed. I still have them in the house, and the shed, because the nights are still too cold to put them back out; hopefully they will be ok where they are for another day or so. Even the JM's inside the shed had leaf damage, but the outside JM are awful and I covered with blankets. I hope they will all recover, some of the in grounds were just planted but they are 4 year old trees. I took some pictures, maybe later I'll be able to post them. I am so frustrated, and I know you all are too. -Ivy

Here is a link that might be useful: App-A-Lot Ranch


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I live in South Carolina between Columbia and Charleston. All of mine (about 16) that were outside were fully leafed out. Most of them (only one to look somewhat OK is Seiryu) are fried...some of them have been in the ground for 10 plus years and were quite large (15 feet or more). Some of the smaller dissectums (waterfall, viridis, ever red, tamukeyama) were particularly hard hit. Also 3 japonicums and peaches and cream...just mush.
Oddly enough, the ferns. hostas, etc. planted beneath them are fine...frankly, I would have rather lost those as they are much easier to replace...I don't have as much time as I did 15 years ago to wait for trees to become mature! The good news is that I have about 6 in pots that I moved into the garage and they are fine. The only benchmark I can remember similar to this is about 17 or 18 years ago, we had a freze after the crepe myrtles had leafed out and they sent of a new set of leaves. I will try to keep a good record of what survives with what damage for future reference. Today it is just too discouraging (and cold) to go out and inspect the damage any more.


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I read with interest and must say that this season looks very bad for many. I am sorry to hear this. Up north--as David you mentioned--the JMs and Aureum and Aconitifolium have not leafed out. A few like Hogyoku, Seiryu and Red Dragon appear as "tight" as a button. Interestingly, the ones with larger buds are the non-JM's I mentioned. I'll see what happens in the next two weeks but none look damaged. Hopefully, they'll stay that way.

Too early to say this yet, but as I thought originally last year it made no sense that the parent cultivar was rated good in zone 5 (by Vertrees in his Maple book and virtually every vendor) while many cultivars were rated zone 6. This is incorrect. Until proven otherwise (through actual planting) all child cultivars should follow the parent. All my JM's proved hardy through a long cold winter.

Before I felt I had to see which ones have tested in this zone. Now I feel I can plant any of 'em until proven wrong.

What did some of them in was something we didn't discuss last year. Rabbits!! The ebay stuff I got for cheap (and not so cheap), the small falsely advertised ones got eaten up and were reduced to sticks! This was because up here in north Illinois (15 min. from the Wisconsin border) the long cold February that dumped snow at least once every ten days made it impossible for the rabbits to get at their usual food, so in desperation they began attacking the small trees and the pre-buds on them. The large ones were unaffected except for one where somehow they bent over to the ground. I was puzzled by the neat snip like cuts but one day went out and found one red-handed running away.


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  • Posted by gomero SW France, Z8 (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 10, 07 at 4:35

I really feel sorry for all of you that have suffered from the cold spell and sympathize with you in your grief.

Please do not forget, later on in the season, to give the forum a feedback so we can all learn about maple behaviour from this unfortunate experience.

Gomero


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Wow is all I got to say.

I did see a Bonsai video that addressed the formation of new foliage and they in particular disscussed how small foliage was formed on a bonsai. They completely removed all foliage in mid summer which to me is indicitive of the generation of new buds only at this time. This is an unfortunate disaster.

My two old trees appear fine and are as noted above pal. 'Seiryu' and jap. 'Acontifolium'. A five foot palmatum 'Omuryama' (spelling?) - at my parents lost it's buds during winter. It was newly planted 2006.

There was a spell in Finland in the 60's or 70's I think it was that did some serious damage. It just happens in a not so loving way folks. I'm very sorrowful for all of you and I feel bad for older gardeners who may have to start over again. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I know I'm not.

Dax


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For many folks not all viable buds on the trees have popped i know many on mine havent ...these should be fine and WILL pop giving the tree leaves to grow as some of mine ALREADY HAVE!!!!...as far as the Bonzai comment I have lost all leaves in spring on a couple of purchased trees from shock and they put new ones on within 3 weeks so i think that is probably not true...My feeling is most will be fine and these trees are not as delicate as many seem to feel...BTW my Seiryu did fine for 4 nights in mid to upper 20's but upon untarping yeasterday after the night time temp around 20 it is not unlike most others wilted...as i said my late partailly leafed but not unfurled trees look totally fine with little or no damage david


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As a side not I looked at my 5 ft Scolopendrifolium
today ...It was left uncovered except for two nights and days ..including the one 20 degree night (5 nights uncovered at mid to upper 20's and days around 30!!!!!!) ...I didn't cover it at first because after the first "unexpected" night it was toast all totally wilted ...well today with tarp off it had literally hundreds of new good looking NEW leaves on it most likely from the tarp covering heat during the past two days and buds that hadn't popped before that are likely on most all of your trees!!!.. ...I can't speak for long term effects but thought this might be of interest!! David


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DH has 3 varieties and 2 of them are red-leafed. I'm at work right now & can't recall which kinds. I think 1 is a Tamukeyama (sp?) The green leafed is fine. In fact the last 2 nights we didn't cover it. The red-leafed kinds are wilted like many others here.

However he told me last night he saw alot of buds that haven't yet opened on all 3 and that the buds look healthy. So we are hopeful all is not lost. He was wondering if he should pull off the wilted leaves and I told him to give it time to see what happens since none of us really know for sure.


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It seems like most think yes ...I'd wait a couple of days and make sure they are totally dead ( the leaves) and then be careful to just cut or pinch the dead leaves not viable stems at the base that may have additional buds hidden amoung the wilted "mess" david


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I have been searching around for the answer to the question of whether to pick off the old dead leaves or not. I noticed today that my viridis had buds at the tips that are now opening up. So I have mostly dead leaves with some new ones coming out already. Anyone know the answer? Adele


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No one knows for sure but the general concensus is yes take off to encourage new growth ...here is what I posted at daves from my own experience this Morn.

OK... My current NON expert advise is to wait a couple of days to remove dead leaves if you plan to do so ...wait until they are crispy and dry ...I just experimented a bit and you will likely throw out the baby with the bath water if you do NOW while just limp since it is REALLY easy to disturb and destroy any viable stuff ...on the few I experimented with that currently were crispy dry it was a breeze with a cupped hand gently removing them...and I also saw bunches of new stuff coming out which should show up on all in a couple of days that I might have wiped them out if I'd clear cut the droopy NON CRISPY stuff this morning...do what you wish but IMHO this is the safest way...and what I plan to do ...one or two sunny days should do the trick ... David


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Makes sense David. Thats what we'll do. Thanks


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A few photos of damage to my Acer p. Covered with blankets but made no differance when temps lowered to 16F. for two nights. 6-8 others not shown with similar damage.

Dave

Acer p. Bloodgood
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Acer p. Aka Shigitasu Sawa
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Acer p. Kamagata
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Acer p. Aratama
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Acer p. Elgans
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Acer p. Sangu Kaku
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



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The Kamagata and the Aka look like they still have some viable leaf shoots to me... careful not to remove or otherwise disturb or damage any "good stuff"...the others well.... not good (for now)...since you have had the lowest temps posted YET keep us informed on how they turn out throughout the season Thanks ...David


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Well, today it started snowing heavily in the area, but ironically the temps are not as bad as last week's chill. I too am very curious as to how all of you have fared after this past week. I'm a bit confused right now. Some have posted that the trees are dead. Others that they should recover. We will see how hardy (or fragile) they are.


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Anyone who can say their trees are dead at this point is either a psychic or just depressed... even if it looses every single leaf I'd wait til around june to make that blatant statement ...I would say firmly to assume they are alive til you know otherwise in a couple of months to do otherwise is FOLLY!!! David


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Good advice...patience may be the best medicine. I can already see some green tips coming out on a few of mine...so some may make and some may not. As my husband said..."what is it you always say to me when you go plant hunting/shopping (he is a total non-gardener)...so many plants, so little time...this may be an opportunity for some new things!"


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  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 11, 07 at 19:19

Nothing is dead, it just a question if the plant has enough in reserves to push again. I would say my 3 year old plants that finally pushed hard and put on a lot of growth relative to the plant size this spring are in real trouble though. I also noticed that some of the leaves on the plants I covered that looked OK are now starting to act like they have been damaged, they look very droopy today. Time will tell as it always does. David


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I see. I guess it would probably be more accurate to say a state of shock for the plants, perhaps different degrees of stress. Its instructive to hear about the plant age and how some smaller ones have had the worst of it. True in my experience up here too. The larger more older trees (planted at the same time) as the smaller ones fared better this winter not so much in terms of cold. They all made it but the small ones closer to the ground were chewed up by rabbits while the taller ones were fine.

As a side note, when I started planting these I was looking for bargains and planted small one to two year olds. Now, I will concentrate on at least four or five year old trees--of course depends on the cultivar but must be at least two or three feet high,preferably more. It is more expensive but worth it.


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RE: Anyone who can say their trees are dead at this point is either a psychic or just depressed... even if it looses every single leaf I'd wait til around june to make that blatant statement ...I would say firmly to assume they are alive til you know otherwise in a couple of months to do otherwise is FOLLY!!! David

Well, I do not know that it would be folly to remove badly damaged trees (before june?). Especially for someone like DCSTEG. He has shared lots of pictures of his garden in the conifer forum and it is full of large attractive specimens, some defintely not hardy (in the long run) in his zone.

even if the trees would otherwise eek out an existence not everyone wants to nurse a puny sick tree back to health for a few years.

This weird weather even reached into Texas. Although my only casualty was a semi evergreen ghost fern. My attitude is not to worry about the weather too much. If something dies there are lots of things I'd like to try in its place.


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"even if the trees would otherwise eek out an existence not everyone wants to nurse a puny sick tree back to health for a few years."

I was talking spercifically about JM's and I think it is MUCH too soon to make any blanket decisions ...now if someone wants to tear out a damaged tree NOW that MIGHT??? in fact survive and thrive and NOT need to be nursed back... so be it ..to each his or her own...but MOST of us don't have auboriums, unlimited funds or limited patience ( we CAN wait) and many of us have already spent hundreds and in my case thousands on their trees. It would behoove EVERYONE to chill out and wait as long as possible until they are reduced to using the DEAD word. Before we give a post mortem on these hardier than most think trees, lets make darn sure they are in the mortuary...I personally am far from there yet. And since this is such an unusual situation that NONE of us know for sure I think the BEST advise is wait and see and assume most will make it...

I have seen neither on this site or any other site ANY factual basis for such a dire prediction thus my frank ,obtuse, and possbly rude comments above. David


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Hey. Dont get your dander up myersphcf. All I am saying is that I wouldn't begrudge someone for removing something even if it wasn't 100% dead. And I wouldn't begrudge anyone for waiting for it to come back either.

What I DO NOT UNDERSTAND is the stylistic DECISION to PUT every other WORD IN CAPS for emphasis. I WONDER if you really TALK THIS WAY. maybe you have DIFFICULTY CONTROLLING THE VOLUME OF YOUR VOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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I agree with you David for the most part. I think that as a whole we should wait. However, there are instances like in my garden where a few tiny ones have been reduced to sticks which I took out. A few sticks I left, but the ones I took out were taking valuable space that I deemed was more valuable raising an older tree rather than waiting for a tiny tree to "maybe/maybe not" recover. These tiny ones I didn't pay much for so I can part with 'em without too much loss. Waiting for these to "maybe" recover would be kind of foolish too because they're so small. Actually a few I've left in theb ground and will plant a big one pretty close to it because I see that they have a chance but I want a nice tree there right now too. This way if these ones recover from the rabbit attack great but if they don't I'll have another one there.


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I thought a part of gardening was patience?

Our trees are young - most shorter than me and I'm short, damaged but showing life. As long as they show a little green, I for one, will wait this out and see how they do. Atleast 1 full year before making the decision to pull them.

Each person here needs to evaluate their situation and do whats best for them. But I'd hate to see anyone reacting hastily & loose something that could be quite beautiful if just given a little time.


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My only reason for emphasis was to calm folks fears ...cause the bottom line is we don't know period...but the odds are some if not all will survive...many folks are really worried and to bombard them with doom and gloom not based on scientific studies and knowlege is not fair to them or their peace of mind. If you don't know something for sure the best action is to wait and do all you can to have a possitive conclusion. As has been said a hasty decision is ones choice but I think most here and in the JM community should take a watch, wait, and hopeful possition...We will know who is right in a few weeks or couple of months in the mean time there is no reason to get folks upset when this is a truly unusual event and noone really knows the ultimate outcome.
Oh the other reason for my empasis is I'm a hot head and I was getting a bit miffed at doom and gloom and hasty comments that I felt were not helping anyone and possibly upsetting folks or pointing them to making stupid hasty decisions ...I don't though think folks should put their heads in the sand ... these trees are injured some severly..it's the permanace of such damage that is the question...David.


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  • Posted by ademink z6 Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 12, 07 at 12:45

I think that we are far more stressed than our plants probably are. ;)

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens! Thanks to everyone for taking the time to share your opinions.


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  • Posted by dcsteg 5/6 Shawnee, KS (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 12, 07 at 13:34

We all just need to sit back and relax. I am confidant most of the damage will be repaired by mid summer. These trees are resilient and have been around a long time. They can endure adverse conditions more then we give them credit for. I will post photos of my damaged trees in July just to prove that they can and will reproduce new leaf structure.

Dave


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My bloodgood looks about like the pics above. I think mine was slightly less leafed out, probably becase it was just planted last fall. Right now I am worried if the tree is established enough to put out new growth. Should I fertilize or just sit tight for now? It is still under warranty, but frankly I would feel guilty holding the nursery responsible. I saw a lady yesterday hauling a large frozen patio container back into the store here in Kansas City. Just does not seem right!


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

One week in and it's readily apparent that the foliage on my Seiryu, Bloodgood and Tsuma Gaki are toast. While they've not had ample time to dry up and as one suggested, fly away with a slight flick, I'm sure the existing foliage will not revive.

I had a discussion with Sam from Eastfork Nursery today. She advised to carefully remove the destroyed foliage as soon as possible. She claims the trees are still pushing valuable energy/nutrients to these leaves; all for naught. She believes the quicker the foliage is removed the better the chances that available resources can be put towards new budding. She emphasized sterilizing shears/pruners w/ alcohol.

I think I'm going to take some finely pointed shears and remove the most obviously destroyed foliage.

To pep myself up during these dark times, I've requested Sam send me an "Orange Dream."

bkfisher


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

One caviate and a disclaimer to my "more" optimistic thoughts on this whole stinkin' mess!! My thoughts were and are based on that cold snap being followed by more normal weather ... here that has not been the case with more freezing or near freezing night time weather ...not nearly as bad as it was but with day times in the upper 30's to upper 40's there is no radiational warming. If I were you BK I would wait til it warms up a bit to do any clipping ... my current thought are those trees with the most damage that haven't shot up new leaves yet are most likely the ones to do the best ...if the new set of leaves pops up in this weather the plant probably won't, as some have direrly stated, not have thwe energy to do much more once those are zapped and that seems to be what is happening here now ...so do what you like but I don't think waiting a week is gonna hurt ya and you definitly don't want any new leaves coming out now if your weather is anywhere near as bad as mine is and being in IN I figure it is similar...David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 12, 07 at 22:38

I am in the same mess as everyone else. My gut feeling is it would normally be a good idea to fertilize and clean up the dead foliage now but I think we should wait until the weather patern stabalizes and we are out of the freezing temps. I think the worse thing that could happen would be for the plant to push new growth and then get hit again. David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

We have stabilized back into the low 70s this week. Most of my foilage is turning brown. After a quick look, i did see several trees pushing just a couple of new buds out at the base of some leaves and new branch stems that were zapped.
I am still waiting to decide what to do with the foilage and dead stuff. I am beginning to think i might just let it do its thing and avoid the risk of damaging any new buds and growth. Especially for larger trees. It looks like the new growth is completely dead, and not able to draw any energy from the tree, and it is being used at the base to push new stuff.
Lets keep our fingers crossed.
Of cours i see we have some forecast back into the 30s next week, ugggggh.

Mike


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

yes I haven't even considered de-leafing my large trees I think you'd have to have either no life or be nuts to do so each tree would take a day or more of painstaikenly tedeous work... my 15-20 ft bloodgoods shed their dead leaves already on their own ( after about three days) and unfortunatly shot out new stuff which is again damaged but nor badly...I have seen others just loose them in the wind ...I stand by my statement to wait a few more days less risk doing more damage than nature will do ..you don't want any pushing of seconday buds til this mess is over!!! david


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

It helped to read the article bkfisher referenced above. I feel encouraged, especially as my Japanese maple had completely leafed out before several nights of freezing weather (southwest Virginia), and now every leaf is shriveled and drying. Fortunately, the "regular" Green Mountain maple next to it enjoys sleeping late every spring, and only has barely-visible hard buds on it. I will just keep an eye on my beautiful Japanese maple and keep hoping for the best.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

HI Evertone,
I live on the outskirts of St. Louis and the Missouri Botanical Garden made an announcement through the local news not to prune bushes and trees. They said not to expect a new leafing out until mid summer.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Again I certainly wouldn't want to argue with those folks they seem knowledgable but I can't see a blanket statement like that making much sense ... thousands of differnt plant species many in differnt stages of developement YIKES that is a rather optuse statement IMHO...add to that the situation in St. Louis is not the same as say Chicago ... New York etc... I wouldn't feel real good about making such a blanket statement for St. Louis let alone precribing it for elsewhere...Add to that many of my JM's have already started setting new leaves albiet some have been again blasted...I can't make much sense out of that statement ... In addition most of my other trees and bushes show little effect here ( my bridal wreath spirea is fully leafed and not damaged at all same with my nine barks and most other bushes) and the hard maples and my Griseum haven't even broken bud yet and we are only about 2 weeks behind St. Louis on average...David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter etc????

OOOPS my screen is a 19" but did not show the whole line I didn't see "NOT" to prune I still stand by my feelings on leafing but I misread the statement I agree with their pruning statement "NOT"...I need a wide screen monitor !!!! SORRY


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

That's what I said in the very beginning of this thread as stated by Missouri's Botanical folks.

These secondary buds will form. Not a third set though. It has been noted that defoliation in large trees (Japanese Beetle for example), entire defoliation - the tree will produce the second flush and completely re-foliate.

Again, A) The tree may die as evidence of branches dying which of course is easily visible,
or B) The tree will re-foliate (also as stated above) 'if enough energy reserves (roots) are able to set the secondary set of buds'.

I await as well. It's all the cycle of a tree. Roots remove water and nutrients from the soil and push them up while the leaves in combination with the sun produce the sugars and starches (photosynthesis + root nurishment), that are then deployed back down and into the root system for reserves at times such as this. To re-itterate, the stronger the root system/the larger it is, the better chance of survival the tree has. That's my opinion.

Maybe we should all do the walk over burning coals dance for good luck.

Good luck,

Dax


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Hey Dax,
Sounds like you live in my neck of the woods. So according to your info if it's a new bush put in just a few weeks ago it may very well not make it. I put in a popcorn viburnum and it looks worse then anything else in my yard.
Thanks,
Vic


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Vic,

Don't know. Was it the size of a pencil or the size of a Rhinocerous. That might help you decide.

Good luck Vic.

Dax


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

But can a recently (or very recently, just planted) potted tree have the roots to overcome this handicap of losing all the first set of leaves?... couldn't a recently planted tree really be set back for a few years and have trouble with such as summer heat and future hurdle?


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by ademink z6 Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Mon, Apr 16, 07 at 22:53

Just thought I'd weigh on on the status of my JMs here in Indianapolis. Number in (parentheses) is the amount of years I have had the tree. Older trees purchased at nurseries probably when 3-5ish years old (????).

Sango Kaku (3) - deader than a doornail. Good riddance, vile beast. LOL

Crimson Queen (4.5 yrs) - I have had Covered most nights w/ a sheet staked down, eastern exposure next to the house - Ol' girl is looking pretty good! A few ends of branches that peeked out from under the sheet are wilted but overall, looks great!

Two Bloodgoods (1 yr), 1-1.5' trees - Uncovered, southwestern exposure, sitting ducks on the tundra of the backyard. Blasted but I noticed today that the leaves weren't totally fried. Still at least 50% of the leaf is still in decent shape! Down, but not out!

Bloodgood (9 months) - 6" seedling - hadn't leafed out yet...new leaves coming out now.

Viridis Laceleaf (4.5 years) - My biggest, most vigorous beauty. Uncovered b/c no sheets would stay on b/c of wind. Southeastern exposure. Looked like it got lit on fire but today I noticed that there are some leaves that aren't totally goners! Young stems/branches still look pretty decent. Impressive!

Viridis Laceleaf (3 years) - Northeastern Exposure. Besides the Sango Kroaku...LOL...was hit the hardest. Still appears that it will recover and I see there are some leaves that didn't make it out in the first flush before freezing.

Not sure if this is interesting info to anyone but thought I would share my observations/experiences in this!

Thanks!
Andrea


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Good report keep 'em coming I will post mine in a week or so already some surprises...nice to hear from an anti Sango person "vile beast" is a good term ...I and several other "comrads" are convinced it is not a good tree for this area other rave on it's goodness ( they likely be from not round these parts ;>) ) all I can say is DITTO to the good riddence quote ...david


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by ademink z6 Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 17, 07 at 10:08

LOL...I kept having such bad limb die-out that I was hoping it would go home to be w/ Jesus so I could put something pretty in its place.

I already gave away a younger one that I had to cut in HALF since so much died and I figured this one wasn't far behind!

Ironically, the little one is doing GREAT in its new home. Go figure...TRAITOR. lol


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

I had three maples really leafing out when the coldspell hit. They were in that stage where they looked like leaves but were still a bit corrugated or slightly still folded like a fan. My 'Katsura' is up against the east side of my house and has quite a few dead terminal leaves but there are a good number that are still alive. My 'Murasaki kiyohime looks similar and my 'Fjellheim' is toast. I almost ripped it out of the groung today in frustration but resisted the urge( since its a witches broom of 'Sango kuku', its kind of in keeping with theory of its lack of hardiness). I had alot of die back on it this winter and this unfortunate weather may be its last straw, but I'm trying to give it a chance. There are several others that were just short of leafing out and are likely to have damage. I'll post follow ups when I'm sure. Sorry to all that have had many maples affected by this freak coldspell. I know its discouraging but I appreciate everybody posting to see what these maples can really take. Thanks, Dan


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

You are indeed lucky with the Katsura it is one of the few trees I will not grow outside a container it is VERY frgile and an early leafer The Murasaki is pretty durable but also an early leafer... mine, that I grafted last year leafed out first of all my green house JM's and also the first to take when grafting ...it likely will always be a treat to be damaged by early frosts but hardy enough to take it IMHO..David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter and????

Oh I forgot to add Dan ...that you are lucky to be so far north...or those other trees would be toast too ..or another way of looking at it if you had later leafing trees more acceptable to Chicago you may have had NO damage or very little.
I find it curious and bizzare that for once JM'sters in the north are for once the lucky ones whereas the southern "protected" jm "friendly" areas are now the ones in the most trouble ...I am firmly in the middle... better than southerners worse than northeners ;>)David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

David, I get your point. This is the first time I've felt lucky to be zone 5. Maybe I should have added that the 'Katsurara' has a 2 1/2-3" caliper and has been in the ground for seven years. It has been pruned to keep it 6' tall because of the spot its in. Here's a couple of photos from a couple of years ago.
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at PhotobucketSorry I don't have a more recent pic. I've been focusing on my conifers recently but I'm back in JM mode this year. 12 new ones in the garage. Unfortunately I think I picked the wrong year to bolster my maple collection.Dan


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Nice tree actually very nice ...there are always exceptions to any blanket statement... it's likely the proximity to building heat from bricks or secluded spot helped you...but I still never recommend it for around here even though it is a gorgeous tree.The winters are just a bit too cold for such a tender tree and it leafs extreemly early subject to late frosts which your location of your tree probably precluded this happening .I am a bit suprised since it's the nicest specimen I've seen in this here parts...I'd guess you have created a micro climate for it ( or actually placed it in one) ... I NEVER suggest placing JM's that close to buildings but in this case it was a good call intentional or not ...David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Wed, Apr 18, 07 at 21:28

I am amazed that your Katsura looks that good. Just to let you know my Murasaki Kiyohime looks bad. It had leafed out and even though I cover it well about 95% of the leaves are dead. It has been in the ground for 3 years and was about 30-36" across. Since it was established I hope it leafs back out as it is one of my favorite Japanese maple. On the other hand Shishigashira was mostly leafed out and only partially covered by a sheet but looks fine with justt a bit of tip burn.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

I planted a 4' tall Bloodgood just a few days before the big freeze here in Kansas City. It was fully leafed out and has now lost all its leaves. However, I already see many new buds so I have hope that it will leaf out again. The Oshio-Beni JM I planted in 2001 was also mostly leafed out and its leaves are toast--but, it also has many new buds. I plan to keep the trees well watered, and fertilize lightly when leaves develop. Any other suggestions? Is there any way to provide the trees with sugars to aid in their growth and pushing new buds?


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Murasaki Kiyohime is also an early leafer I love the plant and yours sounds full grown or about so quite nice ...but I am not surprised by the damage . I was originally gonna plant mine out but have decided to containerize it ...although this is a once in a lifetime happening ( likely) I think we in northern enviorns probably would be wise to keep any early leafers in containers ...I didn't think so before but do now ...for those farther south I think this doesn't apply ...this was truly a freak incident for them especially!! Here's alink some of you might be interested in ...it involves commercial grapes but illustrates for MO. the swing in temps, and how unusual they were the only thing it doesn't show is the two concurances together one after the other which I feel is a once or twice in a lifetime thing for MOST folks ( heat and cold). http://iccve.missouri.edu/alerts/


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Hi David,
From the SC News, the forecaster said it was one of those 50 year happenings, so I don't expect it to become a norm. How are your blueberries and grapes? -Ivy, from Lumber Bridge, NC.

Here is a link that might be useful: App-A-Lot Ranch


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by ademink z6 Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Thu, Apr 19, 07 at 10:47

I wonder if insurance covers stuff like this? LOL Seriously though...wonder if you would need a separate rider or if there is some obscure thing we aren't aware of for expensive plant collectors?


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

I live just outside of Nashville and I have two JM's. One is a bloodgood that has been in the ground about 3 years (it's 6') and the other is a dissectum one (can't remember the name right now) that has been in a large pot for about a year (4'). They both look horrible. They were fully leafed out and beautiful before the frost. Two weeks later, all of their leaves are brown, shriveled, and dry. In addition, the ends of most of the stems/branches are brown, brittle and hollow (they look just like straw). I'm unsure whether the dead stuff is new growth from this Spring, or last year's growth. It looks really bad.

On the bright side I have noticed 4 tiny new leaves on the Bloodgood. Maybe there's hope after all...


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Well with the weather being a little more pleasant outside mid 70s, nice breeze, my depression waining, i have decided to venture out and see how everything looks.

The leaves that were hit are now dropping. The trees that were really growing hard, have basically white stalks (the new growth) that are starting to fall over. They are hollow inside.

Things look very promising though. At the base of alot of these stalks are tiny buds emerging. If we maintian these temps highs 70's, lows upper 40's, i expect to see some fast action over the next two weeks.

Mother nature and these maples never stop mazing me!

Hope everyone else has some good luck also. I know you guys in the midwest are going to be stir crazy as you wait to see if you get the second coming of spring!


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Yes, we in the midwest are going stir crazy. There are some promising signs of new growth. Vibunums look dead but maples have new growth. It's hard to wait but I waited all winter I guess I can wait some more!
Vic


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Here are two pics of my 'Katsura'.The first is from today and the second is from a couple of weeks ago.
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
Dan


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Dan,

I saw your pics of the Katsura. I'm surprised to see it leafed out already in the bottom pic more than two weeks ago. The interesting thing is that none of my JM's have even leafed out yet and I'm in the northern suburbs of Chicago. First, my AP Red Emperor and Acer Japonicum Aconitifolium are the only two that have broken bud in most of the tree. Second, it seems that your leafed out Katsura made it through fine through our couple of weeks of near freezing lows.

It seems then that Katsura is an early leafer, and that near feeezing temps don't faze JM's that have leafed?

Could you let me know which cultivars you have that have survived for over three years in this area? I've been wondering because it seems these JMs are much more hardier (winter-wise) than many of us give them credit for. My champion is the Crimson Queen and its going on into its fourth season. All of my trees even ones considered exotic (read delicate) survived the long cold of FEb. like Villa Taranto and Chishio Improved--(what did them in was not the weather but critters). Of course even in the long frigid course the temp never went down to the min. zone5. It went down to zone 5b (and 6a like minimums).


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

I think hardiness has alot to do with how hardened off they are before winter and of course where they are planted...If you get hit in fall with early frost expect problems ...also many JM's grow a bunch in fall and if they are still growing when even normal killing frost /freeze appears they will suffer damage.In addition each yard of field has warm and cold spots protected and unprotected spots which could and in fact DOES make a big differnce ...

So far I think most A.P.'s will do ok in zone 5 especially 5b except under extreem circumstances... if they are healthy to start out with and NOT twigs the size of pencils ..3-4 years old minimun and true counting NO ebay garbage that posts a two year tree that is only through one growing season thats a OME, or a one thats a new four month old graft!!
I do think some will have winter die back in many but the mildest winters but should survive and pop back in zone 5...
Now what we have just gone through is differnt and you guys up there are lucky but you are more likely to have a late killing frost after they leaf out up there in general but this past debacle is unlikely for any place anytime soon ( I hope!!!).

I would consider Dans experience with Katsura a freakish one and would NEVER consider planting that tree in your area...or any cultivar that is an early leafer which are best left to the Southernm enviorns ( although this year they got hit the hardest...)

With hundreds of good beautiful differnt non early leafing cultivars out there that should do well in zone 5 (b) possibly 5a ,...I see no reson to take a chance and see Dans experience not normal.

And remember the zone thing is just a guide and in fact there is a new one that has been put together with the last 20 years temps and many folks have "moved" including me from 5b to 6a... in addition you may be considerably warmer or colder than two streets down if you are high up low down near a lake yatayatayata there is NO way to really tell exactly what zone you actually are in ...it is a guide thats all.And always remeber thyat Jm's will do best not north of zone 6 and most growers put zone 6 on all but a few cultivars... Most really don't know any more than we do ...well less cause they arn't in our zones...but it's a CYA they know they will do ok in zone 6 (usually) and they don't want folks complaing and I can't blame them .David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter cont.????

My current thinking on our spring disaster is this... I think both Dax and I are correct... both the negative and possitive!! I think the trees that have releafed are doing so on late primary buds and enough leaves even those with a few should see them through... I think others that are denuded you will have to wait a bit until the secondary buds come out maybe a month or two if they do come out to know for sure. The larger the tree the more likely it has a bunch of late primary or early seconday buds now appearing ... ALL of my older JM'S 15-18 ft have fully or virtually fully releafed and are lookin' good...as well as all late leafing JM's ( not re- leafed but "leafed").
Overall the linearlobum did the best among the smaller trees some virtually untouched... the dissectums the worst ) (actually "the worst" doesn't do them justice)except for a few that seemed only lightly damaged for some reason. It was mixed results on smaller palmatums.
I will do a full report but this is what I have found and my thinking on the subject so far at least for HERE in central Illinois. For others in worse hit areas or lesser hit areas there may be and likely will be differnt results from this disaster..David


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I have about 20 new leaves on my Bloodgood and I do think they were late primary buds. In the last few days some of the new leaves have started to die . On close inspection I noticed they are sticky. When I looked closely at the tree, I noticed the branches are also "weeping" espicially were branches intersect. The best way I can descibe it is that it looks like the tree is sweating and I believe this is sap because it is also sticky. Is this caused by freeze damage to the cambium.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by picea 6A Cinci- Oh (My Page) on
    Sat, Apr 21, 07 at 21:47

Of all the japanese maple that had leafed out Shishigashira seems to be the toughest. This was seconded by the owner of one of the best garden centers around and who also has a large collection. Others may rebound and be fine but it look fine now. Koto-no-ito seem fine with about 65-70% of leaves being ok in an exposed area.
A.J.Green Cascade and A.P. Mikawa Yatsbusa had both leafed out and look fine but were well covered and located near brick walls, A. P. Red Filigree Lace was 1/2 leafed out and just covered with a thin sheet over some fencing and look good, A.P. Filigree, Yasemin, Beni Shichihenge and Purple Ghost All were covered by paper leaf bags over tomato cages but still look wilted with a few new leaves here and there, Murasaki Kiyohime, Acer Campestre Carnival, Styrax Japanicum Pink Chimes and Cornus Controversa Variegata all got hammered and look bad David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Ezochi, I'll try to e-mail you personally with that list of maples you wanted. I don't feel like defending my garden choices tonight by posting them publicly. Dan


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I am also quite surprised to see the arborday zone map http://www.arborday.org/media/mapchanges.cfm According to this (when I put in my zip code) I get zone 5/6! I guess as you David have moved from zone 5b to 6a, I think I may have moved from zone 5a to 5b. If people don't believe in global warming they should check this out: the zones have shifted in the last 40 years to much warmer average temps all over the country. In the 60's Illinois, Missouri, Indiana and much of the Midwest was in zone 4. The 1990 update put most of Illinois in zone 5. Now, the latest 2006 update shows most of Illinois in zone 6. And those of you in zone 4 (like much of Iowa and Nebraska) have shifted into zone 5.

This shifting into warmer climate is potentially good news for JM gardeners, but the downside is the unpredictable weather that we saw this past April. We may see more of this kind of erratic weather pattern.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Yes the swings in severe weather do mute the possitive zone changes. just like the scientists predictions of more numerous and severe hurricanes, storms, drought areas etc... our recent swing in temps may be our type of new problem ...lets hope not. Although I personally habve been containerizing most of my new cultivars I purchase..Just to be safe and I really like making my own medium and doing the whole container thing ...there is a bit of a learning curve but it allows you to constantly change your yard and adjust placement for max benifit of the JM ..yes it is more time cunsuming to do and take care of but I like it and for many but not all Jm's it is a good way to grow them...and if I get tired of it I can always plant 'em out...David


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by ademink z6 Indianapolis (My Page) on
    Sun, Apr 22, 07 at 23:44

My largest Bloodgood...approx 9 feet...looks to be dead from the bottom 1/3 up. I'm just sick about it! Dry and withering brown branches while new leaves randomly are coming out of the trunk about a foot off of the ground. my yard is supposed to be in a magazine photo shoot in about two weeks...how is that for AWFUL timing???? This tree is right next to the pond. Maybe they can photoshop it out. lol


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Here in Little Rock we really got it good. Although some areas I have seen where the maples look just fine. Good friends live on a rocky hill and didn't have any issues with theirs. My yard was not so lucky, but my Tamukeyama was spared many of the lower leaves and on the side closest to the brick wall it looks ok. And it's showing signs of either the buds that didn't leaf out or other ones leafing out. From what I have read above, those shouldn't be leafing out until later in the summer. So perhaps they were buds that just hadn't leafed out yet. My tall upright green maple (not sure of the cultivar) is about the same but with plenty of die back (much more twiggy). My Full Moon is low to the ground and got covered with the hostas and is 100% ok. My large Crimson Queen got bit much like the Tamukeyama, with the lower leaves being pretty much ok. So I don't think mine are goners but they sure are sulking. And they were SO gorgeous before the frost.

I just wanted to chime in on what is going on here in AR.


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

  • Posted by gomero SW France, Z8 (My Page) on
    Tue, Apr 24, 07 at 4:03

All this information is very interesting and I thank all the contributors. However It would still be more useful to quote the temperatures (if you knew them) that hit your maples.
Granted the leaves start to cook past the high 20's but from the description of the damage given in the thread, and in addition to the cultivar variability, there seems to be a temeperature difference in the damage.

Gomero


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Gomero I think you are correct to a degree... most of the damage area had temps in the upper 20's few at least a couple of nights...some had it for up to 7-8 nights and days in the low to mid to at most upper 30's. Some of us like me had one REALLY cold night of 19-20 and 4-5 in the mid 20's then 4-5 in upper 20's. But I think although relevant the most important part is how far along the trees were in leafing and if all primary buds had leafed out...That is why those south had the most damage in the northern enviorns had NONE.Add to that some of us covered our plants at least "somewhat" but some like me were fooled once at the beginning and once at the end by the weatherman and left stuff uncovered and of course some trees close to buldings under large trees or otherwise sheltered were affected differntly.So there were alot of variables...but the one constant was leafing.I feel unconfortable actually stating this or that tree is REALLY hardy with all these variables although I will soon report... An example I have a Fireglow and an Emporor 1 within 15-20 feet of one another both totally exposed.. the Fireglow was virtually unaffected even though uncovered for all but the coldest night the E1 was toast covered all but two nights but looks alive and viable just leafless ...I have another E1 a bit awat a a bit more protected with some leaves...Anyway you get my point WHY... they are similar Bloodgood lineage trees of similar date of bud break...and the E1 was actually healthier in my opinion ...I guess you'd put Fireglow in the super hardy colum but I don't feel totally comfortable doing so ..David


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I agree with David, there are alot of variables to this damage.

Here in Atlanta we got down to the high 20's for the first night, and it appeared things werent to bad. But the next night we dropped to the low 20's and the next morning it was obvious what was damaged, and it was most of it.

After looking around last weekend, it seems quite odd which trees got it. I have over a thousand seedlings growing, most smaller than a foot, a few up to 4 ft. They are a mix of reds and green palmatums, burgeriums. They are in about 6 different locations. The damage is different from location to location, but even different within the location. One green has lost everything and is turning black, while one next to it lost all leaves, but it starting to bud back. It appears the ones that are turning black, got some internal damage in the cambium. I would have thought some of them which were partially shileded by other maples would have fared better. But side by side one will be a goner, while a brother seedling next to it is coming back. It is very strange.

Like David, it is hard to ascribe partucular cultivars, especially when it appears so random. Most of my trees has been out for weeks, so i think most of my primaries buds are gone, which is why it is taking along time to see any bud push. I can say my 'Sangu Kaku's (Davids favorites, LOL) are coming back strong, but they were 6 and 10 ft and very healthy. My 'Wilson Pink Dwarf' and 'Chisio' didnt hardly lose any leaves, while a nice healthy red palamtum 6 ft by 6 ft is totally devastated. Most Laceleafs have lost all leaves, but starting to see a few buds pushing. Two yatsuba forms are little lollipops with brown dry leaves, but also see some buds pushing on them. 5 ft 'Sieryu' lost many leaves, but seems to be coming back. 7 ft 'Butterfly' loas all leaves, but pushing some. 7 ft 'Kara su Gawa' looks bad, havent seen any buds yet. 5 ft 'Purple Ghost' toast no buds yet. 5 ft 'Fireglow' and 'Moonfire' loast all leaves, but appear to be pushing more buds. 3 ft 'Toyama Nishiki' not looking good.
Basically it was all over the place.

After driving up to the mountains sunday, i noticed it is very sporadic all over. Micro zones playing a big role, along with the state of the trees spring stage. Our oaks were leafing out, and were damaged badly. A look up into the mountains gives an almost end of fall loook to it.

Hopefully none of us will ever see anything like this again here in the states or in Europe where you are Gomero.

It gives me nightmares to think what it would be like to have a large mature collection like njacer and others.

Mike


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RE: Wholesale slaughter????

Yes I have seen some cambium damage the blackness on a few cultivars most have it just on the upper branches that were thinner and had juice a flowing...I have a couple with it on trunks and I think they are toast I think that is a tell tale sign if your tree has no black area by noww or at least none in trunk area it will likely releaf and be ok IMHO. Most that had pushed small branches have those branches white ...dead!!.
I have also noticed the trees with a few leaves left or have put on a few leaves are pushing buds /... the ones with NO new leaves are not...meaning that having a few is signally the tree to push having none is not doing it now.
I will say from my and others posts the dissectums were hit the hardest.
I will also say those JM's that kept their leaves or many of them for the most part look a little perverted not normal but healthy.And even some that hadn't pushed or fully pushed at freezing and have now look worse than usual but healthy generally.

I would also say that collections of older trwees say 10+ years will likely be ok... mine were all somewhat damaged but have re- leafed ...my assumption is they had mucho more primary buds unopened at the time of freeze which makes sense to me since they are large and have since leafed out with those extra buds .
I will also say those new leaves are more fragile than normal one of my older Atros lost about 1/3 of its new leaves in our latest debacle 40+ mph winds... but otherwise looks healthy...this has never happened before even with high spring winds.
To sum up this post ...The older the tree the better it took the freeze. All trees were somewhat effected meaning keep an eye on them they are not now "normal". Most will probably pull through and you should know by now which ones probably won't David


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