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novaplantguy_z7b_8a

Tree ID / questions.

Hello everyone.

I have always liked Japanese maples, but I have never actually owned one. I recently decided to put in a small-ish "zen" like garden in a small area of my back yard. The area gets FULL SUN, almost all day until about 3-4PM. After that it gets some mottled sun through the neighbors large silver maple on the far side of their yard, and eventually full shade from a 6 foot high fence.

So I came across some Japanese maples at a local HD, and they were priced much less than what I usually have seen them fore. They had just gotten them in and were priced from 49.97 on up to 160 bucks. I got 2 of the smaller ones at 49.97. I believe them to be Acer palmatum dissectum "Crimson Queen" but I am not certain. Can anyone help ID these for sure. The VAR is not listed on the tags, which is why I am asking here. They are very nice trees about 2 and 1/2 feet tall or so. I could not pass up the deal. They also are came with a guarantee so even better. Here are a couple of photos of the trees and foliage:

My plan is to put them each into a half whiskey barrel like (more like a 1/3 whiskey barrel) containers so they can be moved if / when needed.

My questions are as follows:

1. Can this be done now, or should I wait until they have gone into dormancy for the winter? If I do this now, if I just simply lift it out of its current pot and place it in the new container without disturbing the root ball at all would this be ok? Or, should I just wait until dormancy?

2. From most of what I have read these will do fine in my full sun location. Can anyone here confirm that. I see these all the time planted in yards here, and most of them are in full sun for most of the day and they seem to do just fine. I live in a zone 8A / 7B in Northern Virginia, just a long stones throw from the Potomac River and just across from downtown Washington D.C., well within our urban heat island.

3. How much more vertical growth can I expect from these. Will they grow much taller, or are they going to stay the height they are now. FYI, these trees are grafts. The root stock they are one is one of the star shaped and green leaf varieities of JM's. I know this because some trees there had small branches with the green leaves coming out of the lower trunk. The two I have do not have this, and I know to trim that growth off if any does appear.

4. Can anyone confirm that these will be good in containers left outdoors all winter with little to no protection other than being up against a fence? I will be raising the containers about 1/2" or so off the the ground as well. I will also be using about 1" or so of wood chip mulch in the containers.

5. Should I line any wood container with plastic and pole a hole in the bottom where the drain hole is. I will also be placing about 1/2" or so of small pebbles in the bottom, as well as placing a piece of broken terracotta over the hole to keep it clear.

6. What, if any is the best commercial soil/ potting mix to use for these in containers? If there is no commercial available, what should I use to create my own mix. I have sand, peralite, tree soil (but it says to use that only for in ground plantings).

Any and all help with this is really appreciated! I'm definitely not new to gardening, and I am in fact a certified Master Gardener in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I am however somewhat new to growing JM's though. Anyway, Thank you again for any help / advice you can give! Much appreciated.

Peace. Namaste.

Comments (7)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It could be 'Crimson Queen' but there are several other very similar looking cultivars of redleafed dissectums - 'Garnet', 'Red Dragon', 'Red Select', 'Inaba Shidare', 'Tamukyama' just to name a few. While you can sometimes get some nice bargain plants at places like Home Depot, I really dislike their tendency not to label correctly or completely.

    To answer your questions:

    1) Yes, you can plant now, just the same as if you were planting the tree in the ground. Because they are containerized, there is always the possibility these may be rootbound and you will want to correct by properly loosening the roots if that is the case.

    2) Red leafed dissectums tend to be very sun tolerant. Depending on specific cultivar (unknown at this point), it could experience some greening out of the foliage in much sun -- some cultivars just retain their red color better than others.

    3) Vertical growth will also depend on specific cultivar, how it has been trained and the graft location. Unless staked/trained to encourage more vertical growth, most of these varieties will tend to be mushroom or umbrella shaped - the lower the graft, the lower the umbrella will be. Some will actually produce branching that sweeps or lays directly on the ground. You will get some additional growth from the crown of the canopy but with these distinctly weeping forms, it is usually not very significant as far as increasing overall height is concerned.

    4) How well they will do outdoors all winter in a container is variable. The roots are far more vulnerable to cold than is the top growth and in a container, these are exposed to greater cold than if the tree were planted inground. The larger the container, the less vulnerability. FWIW, I grow ALL my Japanese maples in containers and these are ALL left outdoors and relatively exposed in winter without damage, however I am in a slightly warmer zone (a full 8b, maybe even 9). If the winter temperatures drop in to the low 20's or teens for any length of time, you may want to protect the container. Bubble wrap works great!!

    5) Lining the container will help to protect the wood but you can expect around 10 years of life from a half whiskey barrel unprotected before it starts to breakdown. You need to make sure you have plenty of drainage - for that size container, at least 3 holes of about an inch diameter each. Use screening rather than pot shards to keep soil in and NO layer of pebbles or rocks at the base! IMO, plastic lining just impedes proper drainage of a wood container and I'd avoid it. There is also no need to mulch a containerized planting.

    6) Most commercial packaged soil mixes are not going to hold up satisfactorily for this purpose. They are too fine in texture and tend to compact and breakdown during the growing season and with the need for frequent watering. You need a heavily textured, bark-based mix. Aeration and very free drainage is the key for a long term potting soil. The recommended mix for something like this is equal parts of composted bark fines, Turface (or other high-fired clay product) and granite grit. The Container Gardening forum will be a big help to you in researching an appropriate mix or making up one of your own. Or check out the recent thread here on Crimson Queen planting (or similar title).

    Growing a maple long term in a container does require more effort and attention than growing one in the ground. Watering, fertilizing, repotting and root pruning must all be addressed carefully. There is a thread on the Container Gardening forum generally titled "growing trees in containers" that would be very much worth studying in detail.

  • NoVaPlantGuy_Z7b_8a
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much for the great information in your reply! I really appreciate that. I will see if I can find those threads you suggested. If anyone has links to them handy that will be most appreciated too.

    As I suspected the use of most commercial potting mixes would be too fine. I am aware of the water retention / drainage issues caused by this. That said, I have used some commercial mixes in some containers for a few trees and shrubs. However those are conifers, and one is a local native conifer that I actually used most of the soil, which has a fair amount of clay in it, in the 1/3 whiskey barrel it is in. Think sandy clay loam. It has done fantastically well. Those trees however usually do extremely well in many varied conditions, including many conditions which most other trees would eventually fail.

    I generally do repotting every two years of sizable shrubs and trees I keep in containers. They seem to do just fine and have excellent healthy growth each growing season, and proper dormancy during winter. That said, I'm sure the JM's are much more difficult and require much more special attention, which I am ready and willing to give.

    I just wanted to check on the lining and gravel in the bottom. I have not used that on any of my wood containers to date, and they all have been just fine. I did read somewhere ( I cant remember where though) about the lining and gravel, and thought I would ask before I did just to make sure. My initial thought was that I should NOT do either of those.

    Regarding transplantation, I have read both that it is fine to do now, and that one should NOT do it while the tree is in leaf but wait until it is dormant in October or in very early spring before the tree breaks dormancy. So I am thus still a bit conflicted on this. That said, I do see people transplanting these trees all the time after they are well leafed out, and nothing bad happens.

    Regarding the vertical growth, the graft, as you can see in the photo is almost 2 feet high. It is up under the canopy and fairly near the top.

    Regarding ID: Yeah, I have looked at many of those, and it is very hard for me to tell the difference. If anyone can possibly positively ID this one I would be very grateful. I'm not the biggest fan of HD, Lowes, or any big box retailers for shrubs / trees, but there are at times great deals that are too big to pass up. However I too really can not stand the mislabeling / underlabeling. I often see things there that are completely mislabeled, and as my luck would have it, this one is underlabeled.

    Thanks again for the great reply! Being new to doing JM's in containers I do need all of the great help I can get!

  • kaitain4
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm in Zone 6b and my container maples do well with no special attention. Just remember that maple roots are damaged below 14 degrees F, so if you have an unusual cold event you might want to wrap the pots with bubble wrap as GG suggested. I have more trouble with late frosts than anything, as my potted maples on the patio tend to warm up faster and come out earlier. I keep blankets and other materials ready to go in the spring so I can get them thru the frost danger. Other than that - no sweat! Enjoy your treasures...

  • NoVaPlantGuy_Z7b_8a
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Kaitain4, Thanks! Do you use a special mix for them in containers? Just wondering. I'm pretty sure they will be fairly safe in containers here given that we are a cold zone 8a or very warm zone 7b. Our "COLD" winters here are 7a winters, which don't happen real often. Last winter our low for the entire winter was 16F. Cold, but it was an overnight low which only occurred for a few hours at most. Daytimes usually warmed back into the 30s or low 40s. We did have a few spells of a few days each where temps did not get out of the 20s, but even on those days the sun would probably be enough to warm the containers.

    I think it would take alot longer than just a few hours to get the growing medium inside of sizeable containers down to an actual 14F. Fortunately for us here, early or late frosts are not very common at all. Our usual last frost is sometime in late March to mid April depending on how far out in the suburbs you are. I usually keep sheets and / or light blankets around too for my potted palm trees which come in during the winter. They have been out for several frosts and suffered no damage with the sheet over them. My hardy palms do just fine all winter with little protection at all.

    One other question I forgot to ask was I was thinking of raising the containers about 1/2" off the ground or so. Anyone know if this is a good idea? I could always keep them raised during the summer then lower then to be on the ground during winter. I know that containers that sit directly on the earth take much longer to cool down / frees than containers that are raised off the ground and allow air to circulate under neath. Thanks for the replies so far! much appreciated!

  • mafle
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Keeping the containers in contact with the ground in winter is a good idea for sure. I wouldn't place them directly on earth though, too much chance of the drainage holes getting blocked. I always place a paving slab or similar underneath my container maples, unless they are on a bed of coarse gravel.

    Regarding the vertical growth: If you want the maple to be taller you can put in a stake and train a branch up to the desired height and then let it cascade from there. It won't look the most natural or pretty thing with a bamboo cane in the pot for a couple of years, but it's the only way you will get a significant increase in height. Well worth it though if a taller plant would look better in your scenario.

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you research the issue, you'll find the temp at which fine feeder roots of JM's begin to experience cold damage is at just around 25F. Air temperatures tend to fluctuate much more rapidly than soil temps so container soils will not freeze up quite so readily. It typically takes several days at sustained low temperatures (~25F or lower) before there is concern. But in zone 7/8, I doubt you'll have much to worry about.

    And the larger the soil mass/larger container, the longer it will take for that container soil to freeze or achieve damaging temps.

  • Embothrium
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When temperatures drop below the lethal point for a few hours, the roots contacting the inner surface of the container may be killed

    --Carl E. Whitcomb, Plant Production in Containers

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