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rustico_2009

Slow growth

rustico_2009
12 years ago

In pre market gardner days, last year for instance, I planted all my stuff at the best time...or tried to. Since a lot of market gardners are constantly pushing the window what plants have you found to be fine with slow growth and which ones are a disaster to plant at less the optimum times?

Our season for brassicas is ending,but is a slow growing brassica doomed even with a much needed transplant or with better temps coming on? Don't worry about it?

Will tomatoes,eggplants, pepper, cucurbits ,okra and other warm season stuff have equal yields if dealing with growth that looks good but is slow for a while?

I am thinking about taking a bunch of warm season plants outside to a table, which I can cover at night, and where I know they won't die, but will not be breaking speed records either. Then I want to use the room indoors to start round two.

Thanks is advance, I have been enjoying the threads... just don't have much to say.

Comments (25)

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Besides the above question, I am wondering when to put things out with black plastic and temporary row cover? I will have tomato and cucurbit seedlings ready by March 15th and/or could buy some any time. Doing trials and errors either way, but comments are always appreciated.

    This is what our weather is like Dec,Jan, Feb and first half of Mar., with colder periods of rain a hotter dry periods, both lasting usually 1-4 days. And slight frost is still possible, several more lows in the 30's probable.

    Tonight

    Mostly Clear
    Mostly
    Clear
    Lo 47 �F Thursday

    Sunny
    Sunny

    Hi 74 �F Thursday
    Night
    Clear
    Clear

    Lo 47 �F Friday

    Sunny
    Sunny

    Hi 71 �F Friday
    Night
    Clear
    Clear

    Lo 42 �F Saturday

    Sunny
    Sunny

    Hi 62 �F Saturday
    Night
    Mostly Clear
    Mostly
    Clear
    Lo 44 �F Sunday

    Sunny
    Sunny

    Hi 64 �F Sunday
    Night
    Mostly Clear
    Mostly
    Clear
    Lo 41 �F

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    Rustico, My weather is nothing like yours, much colder. I will wait for outside on the tomato, pepper, and other warm until the lows are consistently 50 or above.

    I have done some experimenting with my hoop house. outside low as low as 18, inside 26 and under 1 layer of agribon on the ground 36. The broccoli is enjoying it, the only thing that is outside at this time for me. Very slowly growing, but happy.

    Of course, those are lows and the highs are been up to 115 inside, and beyond the thermometer under the row cover, outside as high as 57.

    Doubt if this helps you.

    As far as the plastic, I haven't used it yet, but will be using some ground cover this year. I've heard that you need to put the plastic down 2 weeks before you plant and it will warm the soil for those warm loving plants. The roots are more important with temps than the top of the plants (within reason).

    Marla

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    It's O.K. Marla, I am trying to learn so much quickly that sometimes just the asking helps the process. Thanks.

    Your broccoli won't go nuts with those kinds of temp fluctations?

    I am going to put some plastic down and just start taking temps for a while compared against the weather conditions. Lots of people use tires for heat, but I can't bring myself to grow in tires, silly probably.

    I am totally sold on row cover even if it is just the 15. Gotta get more stuff together. It's neat how you can look inside and see 100% pest free plants out performing what they should be doing....and for so little effort.

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    If it does, I'm out 3 packets of seed, but have gained a wealth of knowledge. Broccoli doesn't sell well here, but the family likes it.

    row cover doesn't make it total pest free, you still have those nasty creatures that burrow. I put cardboard down over my carrot seed, well the mice like it. The cardboard hid them from the kittens and there were burrows all over the place.

    We should all still be learning. I just can't help alot for your area, but I will/can give opinions and tell you what I've read, for what that's worth.

    Marla

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    The rate of growth has an effect on texture, flavor, and shelf-life, depending on the crop. For most greens, growth that is too fast results in diminished flavor and very tender leaves that are easily bruised. Roots can be watery and soft if they size-up too quickly, or woody and harsh tasting if too slow to mature. What you want is steady growth, not fast or slow. For warm weather fruiting crops like you mention, slow initial growth due to less than ideal temperatures, light duration, and light intensity will affect growth habit, but not the eventual quality of the harvest. The return for those crops will usually justify starting them earlier, with an investment in providing the best conditions you are able.

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Hi Marla,
    So far no rodents under the row covers. Birds are migrating so all lettuce has to be covered with netting.

    Bill, Thanks. I am sure you are right about the investment in materials being a safe one. The land is a mix of intersecting slopes facing all directions. There could be some advantages in that. With plastic mulch, we have to be careful not to burn things up on any given day. Maybe covering the plastic, or partially covering it with a white tarp on the hottest days would be an easy solution. I am going to put some plants in asap to experiment with small scale with a few different methods. Maybe this will be easy next year.

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Well, snow showers predicted for Monday night.

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    Don't you know it, when you expect nice weather, Mother Nature has to change things.

    At least snow means that it's not TOO cold, like below zero. We've been lucky this year, and no below zero temps, just wind chills.

    Marla

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Don't even want to think about those temps. So, do people in colder climates put out tomatoes knowing it might snow? Do they survive the snow? I mean in hoops and stuff, no fancy commercial greenhouses. I have not seen snow stick for more than a day here, once a year at most over 10 years. I doubt the impact would be serious.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    Rustico - below is a link that may be of use to you. Eliot does these to protect crops going into the winter, but you could easily reverse the process to come from winter into spring. Put your black plastic down on the soil, erect the supports, then put the clear plastic over. This will quickly warm the soil and the air inside. Once the soil has had a few good days in the sun, introduce the plants, add a layer of fabric, then the clear plastic on top. The fabric will reduce the wide fluctuations and decrease the amount of heat that the clear plastic creates interacting with the black. Once the days get warm enough, either vent the ends or remove the clear plastic entirely, and then a few weeks after that start the hardening off process by removing the fabric for a little longer each day. By then you should be close to safely getting things in the ground.

    Here in Maine many of our tomatoes NEVER go outside, and those that do may not get there till June in some years. The first year is a tough one, and we all face the issue that we don't know what we don't know, which makes finding out that much harder. In a while you'll be inventing your own systems and showing others how you made it work.

    Here is a link that might be useful: low hoops

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    Eliot believes that ANYONE, ANYWHERE can grow like him, IF they live on the 40th latitude. I have read most of his book before I met him. I found that alot of his recommendations don't apply for my fields. I live on it, but I would NEVER put tomatoes, peppers and other very tender plants outside until May. I don't recommend placing tomatoes outside until after Mother's Day or May 15th, unless you have plenty (100+) and can afford to lose some. Even with the black plastic. In the last 15 years, we had a hard freeze (below 20) once and it wipe most of the vendors at the farmers market out. I was late in planting, and they were making fun of me because I was so slow. I got the last laugh, when they didn't have any to replant, and I did.

    I allow 5 degree for the benefit of row covers, I haven't used plastic, I'll be using ground cover plastic, til this coming year, due to the cost and the high temps that we get during the summers (100+). We'll see how it works out this year. I think the okra and peppers will enjoy the plastic.

    There are alot of differences between the different parts of the US and the world.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    Marla - I'm surprised that you would say that. I have heard Eliot specifically recommend to some people that they should NOT use his system, in Maine, because it doesn't suit their market, skills, topography, or abilities. He does, I think, believe, that anyone with reasonable growing conditions can, with time and effort, create a system like his that is appropriate to the particular details of a person and place to grow exceptional produce. The most valuable element of his books is not a particular method, but a practice of practical and rigorous analytical thinking; he uses his techniques to illustrate the efficacy of that approach. One can take classes to learn what people think, but it is more important to learn how to think for oneself.

  • suburbangreen
    12 years ago

    I use a lot of season extending methods and materials here in North Tx. The thing is that they require some labor and monitoring. You won't get much heat at night with row covers or plastic if using only low tunnel hoops, but during the day, temps can really rise--a whole lot with plastic. I plant my tomatoes a couple weeks early with row covers or vented plastic because I use some heat sinks. The biggest advantage is that the day temps are higher and a windbreak is created thereby creating ideal growing conditions sooner. By the time outside ideal conditions hit in mid-April, I've already had a good month of ideal conditions under cover. Soil temp is crucial to Spring growth--hence the value of raised beds and plastic mulch.
    If you need to push some potted plants outside then you could make a low tunnel with a raised surface so the area won't flood. Then cover the tunnel with greenhouse plastic. You'll have to make sure to vent the tunnel in the morning on warm days and close it at night. With such a small area the tunnel could be heated at night with a ceramic heater. On really cold nights you could put an extra layer of plastic or tarp over the plants.
    I have found that the cool season crops are more sensitive to fluctuating growth rates.

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Sorry I am gettng behind, I have read and appreciate all the positive posts. Also reading my first Coleman book, New Organic Grower. Around here you are pretty much expected to have lots of produce year round. The climate varies a lot, pacific coast, deserts, mountains all in the same county. I live in the mountains where few people grow vegetables for sale. It is not easy to find serious local growers who want to talk, but I am seeking them out. Just like where you guys are, there seems to be a lot of importing going on. Not everyone, but most stalls are selling from multiple properties.

    Suburbangreen.
    The set up you describe is basically how I am doing my seedling starting tables outdoors, but with heat cables in them. There is a layer of row cover, a layer of non- vented greenhouse plastic and a layer of shade cloth. I chose which ones are the best to use, alone or in combination. I think with your idea, I will add a layer of GH plastic vented with cuts for when that could be best. There are also water bottles for heat sinks.

    What are you using in the for heat sinks tunnels? Windbreaks make a ton of difference here too. Besides the tunnel, I was thinking about wrapping the tomato cages in plastic half way up, with plants growing in large black plastic bags perforated on the bottom and placed on top of a well prepared hole.

    On the other hand, The heat cables I buy are 200 watts per 40 feet. It makes me wonder, if besides the other passive stuff running a coil though a series of pots could be cost effective? One day I'll quit being lazy and do the math. 200 watts, would probably do four or five, five gallon pots and only be used when it was really too cold for the passive stuff, not that many total hours...

    I have even wondered about lining the pots with insulation.Or using discarded coolers or discarded refrigerators. Some of the escaping heat would be caught in the tunnel and help less tender crops planted in the dirt around the pots.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    rustico - it is an unfortunate fact of capitalism that a lot of people view competition as a reason to be secretive or stingy with advice. My experience is that those with the best quality product will always prosper, and competition is incentive to strive for excellence. Good competition makes everyone better. I have few direct local competitors because I have a chosen a niche that permits me some advantages, but my methods are applicable to many growers, even if my products have more limited markets. You should make a point of visiting farmers markets as an observer, watching for local produce at markets, and looking for the names of farms listed on menus. This will give you some sense of what people are doing, how well they are doing it, and where. As a new entrant in the market, you will have a steep learning curve and will have to establish yourself. There may be an advantage in volunteering your time to a grower whose operation has particular interest for you - few growers will pass up the opportunity of a few hours of free, knowledgeable labor.

    Regarding heating cables, they make sense for germination, but in terms of further growing on the gain to larger plants would be hard to justify. There is a point when season extension, on too small a scale, becomes too labor-intensive to justify. It is important to design as much efficiency into the system as you can, and having to move plants every day or manage the ventilation of multiple small spaces twice a day (or more, in variable climates like mountainsides) is labor-intensive and ultimately risky.

    My garden space is on irregular topography as well, I have a series of level areas carved into rolling landscape, some of it quite steep. On the ridgeline that defines the area, I erected two 100' rows of 4' rabbit fencing, attached to metal fence posts set 40 inches apart and connected with wire at the top to keep it from spreading. Between the fences I pile all of the leaves I collect in the fall - from a distance it looks like a beautifully constructed brown stone wall. This helps to reduce a significant amount of wind and snow-drift, and provides me with a constant supply of 2-year-old leaf mold. You can do a similar thing with clear plastic down the side of a bed of tomatoes - here in Maine it is not uncommon to see storm windows used in the summer to enclose tomato plantings.

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    I have one book that recommends that you build tomato cages out of reinforcing wire (the kind that concrete people use), place the rows back to back, but wrap each cage with plastic, clear, after the tomatoes get large enough, just pull the plastic down. This person was in North Dakota. He also said that it worked great if hail is forecast. He would put sheets of plywood over the top of the cages, weighted down of course, and pull the plastic up to help prevent hail damage. I've seen hail damage here totaling wipe out some beautiful tomato plants (mine). Some plants that I would have sold for $10-15 each, totally ruined. lucky for me, I could use them in my garden, but nobody wanted to buy them.

    Marla

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    The mountains make for a beautiful place to work. Farming activities are just an excuse to stay up here more.

    Yep, bill, I agree that since I plan to stay small scale, at some point, I may just find the best ways to exploit our good fall/winter season and our already long summer growing season, without too much more manipulation of conditions. Of course there is plenty of "learning curve" with that. Right now I like the challenge of season extension and am pretty sure there will be valuable lessons to take away from it.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    I hear ya. I've got to look at the @#$^% ocean all day.

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Terrible!

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    I have corn fields all around me.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago

    We should all go on strike so the owners will give us better working conditions!

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    Isn't that what we do during the winter? I like my working conditions, but could we get better pay???? And maybe some free benefits?

  • rustico_2009
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Looking at plastic,

    Can the 1mil stuff be placed by hand or does that have to go on with a machine? I am thinking just 3' or 4' wide. It's pretty inexpensive. Maybe it makes more sense to go with heavier stuff and reuse it if working by hand?

    Is the red for tomatoes really better?

    Thanks.

  • jcatblum
    12 years ago

    Red plastic is suppose to help deter pest & help fruit on tomatoes ripen sooner.

    With our extreme heat from last yr I am laying half black plastic & half white. The black plastic was cooking the ground last yr, so many people are staying away from it in case we have another record heatwave. The black plastic can be sprayed with a product called Suround to help bring the temps down about 20 degrees once it gets hot.

  • myfamilysfarm
    12 years ago

    One year, my dil and I, laid our plastic by hand. Tip is don't do a long run, better to do short runs and overlap them. We tilled, then laid over the tilled area, we put a rock on the corners and covered with a hoe.

    This year we found landscape fabric at a good price and will be trying that to help cut down on weeds. It will allow rain to go thru, which is better than plastic, IMHO.

    Marla

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