Good luck with your tilling, take some aspirin with you also.

Marla

We also use old mini blinds for tags, just cut them up into size and mark with a sharpie. DO NOT DO THIS. OLD CHEAP MINI BLINGS HAVE LEAD IN THEM. Your are expsoing yourself to lead it is a poision. this is a very serious matter. you could reall hurt some one, the most likely would be your own children , say they use the dame area where u just cut a bunch of blinds for tags. I am a lead clean up cetivied tech trust me.

I am a lead clean up cetivied tech trust me.

I sell bridges for a living. Wanna buy one? Trust me, I can get you a good deal!

Mike

I meant to say I use the old (not being used any longer) plastic=type mini blinds. Most of the older blinds are too strong to cut with a pair of scissors. These are the 'wimpy' blinds that when you bump them they bend. I don't think any of the newer plastic blinds have lead in them since they're still being sold.

Mike, if the rain keeps up, I may need one of those bridges.

some people should use spell check, including me when the fingers get stupid.

Marla

to myfamilyfarm, those are the ones most likely to have lead in them. Sorry about the spelling before

Even the ones that we are buying NOW???? Most of mine are less than 3 years old.

not real sure about that, but will ask , my feeling is that anything real cheap may be a problem. I will try to nail down a date as to when blinds became ok if there is one.

The area is about 1/3 larger than what I estimated (I need to take smaller steps!) which means I have room for about 4-5 more rows of plants. I don't have the seeds to start and it is too late now, so what I am thinking about is adding fruits: a small (35-40 dwarf trees) orchard, strawberry and grape vines and blackberry canes. Won't produce anything this year, and the trees won't contribute much in 2012, but after that, I should have bushels of apples, peaches, cherries, grapes and apricots. I can either sell them fresh or dehydrate what I don't sell and make a killer trail mix.

Good idea or not?

Mike

Mike, are you sure that you will still have this piece of property? By renting, unless you have a LONG term lease, you may be building it up for someone else to take advantage. I would put strawberries in, if anything, for a fruit. At least you would have only 1 season of nothingness. My apple tree took 7 years before producing and my peach tree was 5. I don't remember the grapes, and don't have any apricots or cherries. In my area, cherries are real popular and the trees suffer from freezes in the spring ALOT.

Just my thought for you.

Marla,

The state will eventually take the area.. I suppose there is a chance the village administrator could lease it to someone else though I have the option to renew it each year.

From what I have read, Dwarf fruit trees should be fairly productive in their third year, though some posters claim they get limited production in the second year. It wouldn't be a huge investment, about $220 for 20 trees, including shipping. I've already spent $300 for seeds this year, plus another $200 for media, ferts and potting mix.

Mike

my trees were dwarfs and it took as long as I previously stated. I've picked 3-4 bu of peaches off that tree, but everything was small because I didn't thin it often enough. The apple trees I don't think has produced more than 1 bushel on any year.

Marla

The only things I would put in that are perennials are strawberries, raspberries and blackberries as they all produce in 2 years or less. Dwarf fruit trees start producing on their third year but won't produce much until year 5 or 6, same with grapes and asparagus (which you did not mention)

Are you selling at the Northside market? I hear that is a really good one, perhaps the best in Cincy.

I haven't found a market yet, except for a couple of places I can set up a roadside stand. One is 1/10 mi. off the Interstate, another on a major road in a city (25 mph strictly enforced speed limit) that has thousands of cars per day pass by it.

Mike

i strongly suggest finding a farmers market. Road side markets are hit and miss as to how much you will/can sell. just because you are set does not ean people will stop.

Also farmers markets give a new grower a nice cushion in that if you run out of something other at the market will still have that item in stock (usually) and so customers keep coming. if you run out of tomatoes or corn or whatever at your stand than the customers quit coming even though you may have other things that they might have bought because they were there.

oh and they do most of the marketing for you and marketing is VERY important, at least as important as growing the stuff.

You are lucky that there are many good markets in the Cincy area. Northside and Findlay being the best of them.

And lastly you really should have your markets tied down before you start to plant

I am always amazed at how different states and areas handle the farmers markets. Almost all the markets in Kansas, except the really big cities, are everyone and anyone is welcome. You don't have to apply, fill out a form, pay a deposit, etc, etc, etc.

Mike,

How are you going to set up a farm stand? Is there parking available, are you on the side of the street, a parking lot?

Just curious.

Jay

Mike, I also starting by growing and then finding a market. I only planting what I might eat, that way if it didn't sell, I would eat or preserve it. I also only planted about 2x-3x more than what I would use. Only in the last few years did I have more than I could sell, and I had to buy alot to have that level. This year, I need to grow at least 70% of what I sell at my market, so I'm having to increase production massively.

I've increase the number of plants that I've started for retail and production by at least 2x-3x over last year.

Marla

Word whiz, You are talking like a grower that has about 10-15 acres of produce.
With that small city lot of 1/2 acre you won,t last 2 weeks and you will be out of produce. That is if everything you plant grows to a proper retail product. Especially with the high variety you want to grow. 1/2 acre is about 1/2 smaller than me. Stick to Cukes,Tomatoes,Green beans, Salad greens. Planting these items with only 1/2 acre you might last 4 weeks at a busy roadside stand. Mark

Mike, I agree with Mark, you mostly likely will not produce as much produce as you will need to do all that you have listed. Try to decide what area of marketing that you really want to do and do it. It does make it easier if you know exactly what you are headed for.

Marla

Mark,

Thanks for your advice but I wonder where you are coming from or if you have a clue. Let's see. My 2100 tomato plants will only last four weeks. I'll sell all my 600 onions in a month. The 500 Swiss Chard and 1200 Sugar Snap peas - the same for them. Oh, not to mention the 200 heads of broccoli, 450 heads of Romaine Lettuce, 600 pole bean plants, all the watermelon and cantaloupes. Plus the cucumbers, carrots and sweet potatoes. Oh I almost forgot about the zucchini/squash and replanting the lettuce, peas and broccoli.

With all due disrespect, Mark, I don't do the high school thing that my **** is bigger than yours or vice versa. I'm going from 1000 square feet and selling a few things to a couple of customers to something quite a bit larger and hopefully selling to a lot more. I'm not trying to be Bonnie Plant, Monsanto or Eurofresh. If I can sell everything I raise in four weeks, I'll be thrilled, especially since it will take a full summer to even get mature produce. I promise not to cry in my beer if all I sell a week is 30 heads of lettuce, 30 pint-size bags of peas, 30 8-ounce bags of chard, 30 heads of broccoli and 300 pounds of maters, plus whatever else I can deliver

I would say I am sorry that I don't meet your definition of a market grower, but Mom taught me to not tell lies.

My skin fits me.

Mike

Mike, I'm sorry to tell you that your space will run out very quickly, it always does. Or at least, it does for me. I'm also starting more plants than I have room for, even with several acres. I want to plant this and this and this, but in reality only have room for this and this. I would love to be able to produce all of the produce that I sell, but I've come to the conclusion that it won't happen.

Marla

Mike, you have picked produce that will continue throughout the season, or at least til frost. you may not have everything every week, but it does sound that you will something from early til late.

Marla

Marla,

I've learned that Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry!) knew what he was talking about when he said a man needs to know his limitations. I really don't have aspirations or dreams of pocketing $1,000/wk. - I will be thrilled with half of that. Yes, I do hope it is profitable (and the more the better) but this is also a demonstration project, done with the help of a local village, to show how unused/underused urban land can be turned into a profitable permaculture. If my only goal was to make money this year, I would be looking at growing fruit trees, strawberries, grapes, blackberries, etc. I have a chance to not only make a bit of money while having fun, but also maybe add something to society.

OK, so I'm a capitalist with a bleeding heart! No one is perfect.

The village is allowing me to set up a compost pile, clear the land (probably won't allow me to cut huge trees I could sell for firewood, at least this year) and do other stuff that a person whose only eye on profits would not give a second thought to. Basically, I am having fun, and that's worth a lot of dollars.

Mike

Mike, I have been doing market farming in the greater Cincinnati/Dayton area for the past 17 years. I have run markets, formed market, have run my own farm stand, CSA and sold to restuarants and health food stores and one thing I have learned about all this is to succeed you set up your markets first. this is very very important as any fool can grow enough to sell but just because they grew it does not mean it will sell (especially if you have a reseller set up down the block with cheaper prices, in your area, price trumps quality just about every time unless you are in a spot with locavores about who value qualities other than price).

I also wonder where you will get the room to grow 2100 tomatoes and all the other stuff on 1/3 acre. that is not much room for a market garden and tomatoes and melons take up a lot of space.

We all are just trying to help you out as we all have been doing this a while. I suppose we can stop giving you advice and let you wander about lost for a few years until you learn the ropes. Be happy you have this great resource here. It was not here when I started market farming that is for sure (Me and 5 other petitioned the original owner of GardenWeb, Spike, to put up a market farmers forum)

But you will learn a lot about growing for market and marketing what you grow this year

Mike ,here is a nice Garden plan for your 1/2 acre Market Garden. According to my yield charts you should have the following.
Tomatoes---2250LBS. ($2250)
Cherry/Roma Tomatoe----800 qts. ($1500)
Swt. Corn---200 Dozen ($600)
ETC.

Any how you should expect($12,470.00)this is at competive pricing.
This does not include growing/selling expense,s which I am going to guess around 5-10 %.

Mark

For me at my market, 2100 regular slicing tomatoes should yield 10-20 lbs of marketable fruit. At 10# per plant would be 21,000 and I get a minimum of $1.50/lb equaling $31,500 before expenses. I know you already have your starts started, but have you considered spacing out your plantings to extend your harvest? Even holding for 4 weeks, would give you an extra 3-4 weeks of harvest. Plus you wouldn't have to pick all 2100 at the same time. That's alot to pick, believe me.

Your prices will not be the same as prices elsewhere, but that was my price last year and the lowest (for marketable) that I priced for years. I didn't include my 'bulk' price, because those are not the norm.

Also, keep in mind how much work just picking is going to take, plus the weeding in the heat. It's definitely not an easy job, so I hope you don't burn yourself out this year.

Marla

Mike, may I also add to eliminate weeding use a good thick straw mulch after your soil warms up. I mulch around the 20th of June and cultivate with my Mantis until then. This beautiful layer of straw 3-4 inches thick not only help smother weeds but holds moisture in soil and prevents flooding from excessive summer rains. Tomatoes love constant soil moisture ,not dry then wet then dry.Also a good Mulch keeps B.E.R and other soil fungus,and foliar disease away.
If you Till in 12-12-12 at start of season you may not have to fertilize during the season especially since this is virgin ground.
Although I like to ring my tomatos with 5-20-20 at about 2 weeks prior to main flowering stage ( Determinate, as these are the ones that I mainly grow for my early-mid season full size tomatos)
Also I like to ring my melon hills with the same at about the same growth period . Mark

Mike, You're getting some great advice here. You seem aware that you're not going to make a killing this year, but each year builds on the other and you constantly have to adapt to changes. Be aware that you need a substantial quantity of "hardware" to make a project like this go: stakes, cages, wire, fence, etc. Then there is the packaging: bags, boxes, etc. You are also wise in not planting fruits---the investment is huge both in time and money--and since it is not your own land..... Like Mark said MULCH!!!

Brook

Like everyone this time of the year-I don,t have time but will add a few words anyway. I am 64 and have been growing produce since my dear mother sat me in the dirt beside her in the family vegetable patch in 1946. This was a serious business in this patch, needed to keep us alive throughout the following year. Since then whenever there was dirt available I was in it. A lot of fun thrilling hours have come and gone since then. A lot of painfull, disappointing, exhausting hours have come and gone since the first dirt pile. The highs, lows and drama of living a dream in this vegetable business are never ending. The physical and financial costs have really escalated over the years. I now have some seed costing 22 cents each. I did'nt start selling/marketing my produce until 1991. I started with farm markets with up to 20 vendors. Since 1999 I have only marketed at my farm stand. When I first started at the farm market (day one) $60.00 a day was a thriller. Now $1,300.00 to $1,500.00 per week gross is mediocre and my torso is a arthritic ball of fire for 6 months and not much better through the winter. Will I quit? Nope, would'nt have it any other way! I try to do up to 5 acres but 3 acres is tough on me and my limited equipment and limited unreliable help so I allso purchase at the amish auctions. For my abilities 1,000 tomatoe plants is my limit, I need around 25,000lbs of number 1 tomatoes a year, available every single day from early June to end of October. A few weeks will do as much as $6000.00 in peak season. These old bones can do up to 8-150 ft. rows of potatoes, no more. I need potatoes on the counter 7 days a week. Other than what I grow Amish Grown are the only other vegetables that will meet the quality my customers are accustomed to. I can do up to 1200 Pepper plants, thats it. Everything is hand watered/fertilized, trailer with 300 gallon tank. I refuse to raise sweet corn, its a money loser for me and my equipment, I need to buy it and lose, its not a thrill. I do melons, squash, cukes, pickles, pumpkins and gourds. I do about an acre of cut flowers pick your own and if time, bouquets they are fun but time consuming. People will spend on flowers, even if there are weeds here and there in the row. I do green beans and I still need to buy greenbeans to have a steady supply. There are more vegetables that I grow and more that the amish provide, the list could go on forever. Dill, etc. Have fun, be thrilled and disapointed, life goes on. I'm allready exhausted----tonytiller

Tony, until we walk in other's shoe, we will have NO idea about their lives or markets. I appreciate your market since it sounds very similar to mine. I just hope that I can attract my customers from the farmers market out to the farm stand.

Marla

Everyone,

I really do appreciate the advice. While this is the first year doing anything this scale to sell, this is a smallish garden compared to what I raised years ago. Of course, there were three younger brothers and dad, and we used tractors to plow, disc and cultivate the garden and a mechanical transplanter to plant potatoes and tomatoes.

The village wants to keep more land for access than I thought so I will have less space than I thought. I won't know for sure until I actually measure it but it should be at least 12,500. So I may lose a row of tomatoes and 10-60 plants plants of everything else.

As far as running out of stuff - that's quite possible and if I do I will cry all the way to the bank! Seriously! Especially if it is when the plants are in full production. Take the peas. If my guess on the amount of room is close, I'll have room for about 1500 plants. I will be thrilled to sell 60 pounds per week. That would translate into a bit over .6 ounces of peas per plant per week. Or tomatoes - 600 pounds per week. Even if, instead of 1800 plants, I only grow 1500, that means I would need 6.4 ounces, or one good tomato per plant per week. Add in 45 heads of lettuce, 45 pounds of chard, 45 pounds of broccoli and I'm looking at about $1200 per week less expenses.

My goal, months ago, going into this was to average $600/wk. for a 22-week market season. I may be able to extend it by a month or so, since peas, lettuce, broccoli, sweet potatoes and winter squash will survive late into the season.

Marla, hoeing in the heat? I can only hope! I love hot weather, actually warm. I consider anything under 102 warm, and can easily take 105 degrees as long as there is a bit of air moving. One of my life's greatest pleasures it to be outside in warm, sunny weather.

This year will be a test. It is requiring very minimal financial investment (under $900 so far and I'll recoup half of that from plant sales) and the potential to make some decent money. If I do, I can invest in machinery that will allow me to grow more stuff easier. I can also aggressively getting into a couple of good farmers markets - they like a track record.

Mike

When you get time, in the heat of summer, you can come on up and hoe some in my gardens. There are always more to be done that we get done. In the last couple of years, the heat seems to get to us quicker. Are you considering some Okra, might be an added item, and they produce like crazy when it's hot. Not many people grow them, here, and I can always sell out whenever I have it. Plus you will get more poundage from a small amount of ground.

We have a lady that drives from KY with her tomatoes each summer, she brings in a minimum of 200 25# boxes of tomatoes each week and prices them at $1.25 per pound. She's here 2-3 days max and then goes home and picks more for the following week. Doing the math, she takes home $6,000 minus hotel and gas for traveling. She's here for maybe 6-8 weeks. The last she told me, she plants 9,000 plants and hires 3 people to help pick plus her and hubby. That's my idea of making money.

Marla

Marla,

I do plan on spacing my tomato and peas plantings, as well as the chard and lettuce. I have Early Wonder I will transplant in late April, then plant more mid-season varieties each week, more than likely over a 3-4 week period.

Would I mind doing this full time? Not in the least! I might have to learn how to freeze fruit I don't sell and convert it to a trail mix in winter, ditto for grinding peppers. There's an abundance/shortage of ground here. Lots of ground that is unused now, waiting for development. Very little ground where one could feel confident it will still be available to lease ten years from now.

The only problem with doing this full time - I would be going crazy now, having being teased with spring and now stuck back in winter, at least for another week or so. If I didn't at least have a part-time job, I would go off the deep end.

Mike

Freezing fruit is easy, get a Ball Blue Book if you don't have one.

Some ground that have had buildings on them previously could have serious problems when trying to grow things. I have a spot that I used to burn, and it wouldn't grow anything for several years after I stopped burning there. I'm hoping for you that your land hasn't been damaged. Near the interstate, they placed 'batch plants' that mix the concrete and those areas will have problems due to the chemicals in that process.

But, at $5 rent and some other expense, you will have a learning experience at the least. Have you ask your village if they mulch their tree limbs? Perhaps they can bring some to your garden area. Just a thought.

Marla

Marla,

Are you kidding?! Mom has given me all her canning books. I think the Ball Blue Book I have is from 1936! Still in good shape. I used it to guide me to canning tomatoes and potatoes. But I'm more into blanching these days, especially for peas, carrots and beans. Bell and banana peppers get slice and stuck directly in the freezer, hot pepper dehydrated.

I don't know how good/bad this ground is. But it's what I have to work with. The earth seems to be black, which would make sense since it was a canal bed a century and a half ago. Lots of rocks, which (looking optimistically!) means good drainage.

Something for the ages, as Google searches do not seem to go away for at least five years, sometimes more:

I'll be happy to net $5,000 this year. That will allow me to buy a garden tractor and couple of attachments, pay for the trees/plants that will take a couple of years to products, allow me to add a huge amount of amendments to the soil, get my feet not just wet but soggy doing this stuff.

Plus, I will be having fun!!!

Mike

Your mom's BBbook is out-of-date on some of the canning methods. But each version has different recipes.

Good luck, we are still hauling horse compost home, at least 2 more loads. We'll start plowing soon, son's practicing on his garden.

Marla

Marla,

I have newer books too! But I also have my own, time-proven ways of doing preserving. I know, people will beat me up about this but a couple of decades ago, I discover that some things, like tomato juice and ketchup can be preserved in - are you ready for this, Mt. Dew bottles. They completely seal. I boil the juice/ketchup and then pour it into the plastic bottles. I have few bottles of ketchup I made probably 15 years ago. If I was to open it, I would hear the sound of air getting into it.

Been using this stuff in meat loaf, soups and other stuff. Yeah, it all gets cooked, but so far I have not ended up in the emergency room or even had any gastro problems.

Mike

It looks like my area will be about 15,000 sq. ft. as the village wants access to some areas. I can add probably 100-125 linear feet (maybe 10 feet wide if I want to count growing area where I can plant fruit trees and bushes.

If spring ever arrives, and I actually get to plant stuff, I'll have a log of the exact footage!

Mike

I brought this thread back up because I have been renting land for the previous 3 years and this year am having some issues with the owners and working things out.
Mike what are you doing for irrigation? I use an irrigation pump that I was told uses little power but it turns out that my rent money per year hasn't gone to the person who pays the electric bill amongst this family (been 3 different people in the house since I have been there) plus because there is just one meter for the house, barn with a business and the irrigation (I almost wrote irritation LOL!) pump, no one can know how much each is using. I am trying to pay a fair amount for this electricity and make sure I can water as much as I need to without having someone pissed when I have the pump on. But I don't want to pay too much being pumps don't use that much power. When I read meters irrigation pump meters hardly moved through the season. I hardly slept last night after the one nice sister talked to me about this. It sounds like the other sister, whom I have never met in 4 years, is wanting to cause trouble for me.

Minnie, I don't know about irrigation pumps, but I had electricity before we got water. Our electric bill went up about between $11 and $12 dollars and that included the water heater. Hope this hope you.

We are a family of 2, I doubt if you would use more water to irrigate than what we would use household wise. We do not have a washing machine.

Marla

I'm not doing anything for irrigation, at least not yet. I grew up, and our family survived, raising tobacco. Fields that were 1-6 acres in size. Some years we made out like bandits, other years the pickings were slim. Last summer was the first time in more than 50 years I do not recall getting at least one soaking rain in both July and August.

But there is a 6-inch outlet I can probably use if I need to.

Mike

If we could only capture all this rain and store it until we needed it. We'll lucky on today's forecast, only 2.5" for today. More towards Indianapolis.

Marla

Minnie,
there is a device on the market called the ?kill-a-watt? it looks like a standard inline timer, but it keeps track of your power use in kilowatt hours. if you run your pump, etc through this you can accurately track your power use! hope this helps.

That is really cool! I wish I could get that but the pump cord is not a three pronger but a big weird plug in.

hmmm....must be a 240 volt plug. you should see if its the same kind of plug as your clothes washer/dryer is. if so then it is most likely a 240 volt. in which case perhaps you can find one to fit....or adapters perhaps?
Only other option for you I could think of would be to find the pumps power consumption in watts (or in amps, and convert to watts) then estimate how many watts a day or per month you use. every 1000 watts used in an hour is a kilowatt hour here in my city the current rate is $0.0461/kilowatt hour. i use this formula to estimate my power bill for my H.I.D lights. if you have any further ?s feel free to mail me. Cheers!

There are several types of 220/240 plugs, so it may not look like your 'dryer'. But if it a large plug, about 2x+ the size of a regular plug, it is probably a 220/240 plug. Good news is a 220/240 system will take less electric than a 110/120 plug. I believe if you are paying them $20/month, they are making alittle extra money on your electric. They might also figure what the electric is during the time that you are not using the pumps (winter) and the difference (providing they are not heating with electric) would be your usage. You might be able to go to the electric company and ask. I know they will tell you the average bill for a certain location.

Marla

As you may know, I publish a weekly newspaper and this week was a Spotlight on a section of the area we cover - my home neighborhood.

Part of the deal is we deliver a paper to every home, so I walked up and down the streets of Hartwell. One home was that of the guy who trying to plow my garden but gave up because of the large number of huge rocks. But true to his word, he has contacted excavators about dumping clean dirt in the area and they are on board - if it ever dries up.

It may take a couple of years to get the ground completely reclaimed, but I'm fine with that.

Mike

Thanks.
I looked up pictures of that 240 plug but that isn't it. I think it has 4 prongs but yes some are long like that. I remember trying to line it up last week.

Today they were welding again in the building. I can't believe people would weld and then not pay anything for the electric bill! And then they assume I am the only one using power when the house wasn't lived in! When I read electric meters for a job, the meters would spin at light speed when someone was welding.

I am going to call the electric companies when I get a chance.

Minnie, I checked with hubby regarding your question. He was a contractor over the past 35+ years. If your plug has 4 prongs, it will be a 220/240 plug. depending upon the welder, it may NOT take any electric at all. Your electric usage, depending upon what type of pump, how often you use it and for how long. He recommends you contacting an specialized electrical contractor who can determine your own usage. Or perhaps just have a separate meter installed for your pump, and then that would settle the issue.

Also, you can checked with the electric company and ask if there are minimum charges. I know where I'm at our minimum charge is about $25 without using any electric. Some places have them and some don't.

I might have stumbled upon a solution, at least one adequate enough for this year. I took the outside tines off my tiller and all of a sudden, this thing that would sit for 30 seconds in a spot and maybe dig down an inch, now buries itself in 3-5 seconds. Yeah, I', only tilling maybe a foot wide area, but that if I can get 8" or deeper, that will give the plants lots of space for their roots to start. Once they do, IME, they will burrow through nearly concrete type soil to find moisture. At least, that's my hope.

When/if the ground ever dries, I'm gonna see how this works. If I can till about 2200 linear feet, I'll have room for everything I want to grow. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Mike