Tom, as usual, you say it all. almost.

Anything to think about is "Are you a sales person?" If not, farmers marketing might not be for you. You (I don't mean only you Sheila) need to be a salesperson. Beautiful, wonderful produce can sit if they don't have a person who can sell them.

I happen to know that Tom and I are sales people, maybe not enough to sell cars, but still sales people.

Marla

Thank you Tom for your detailed and thoughtful answers. It will take me while to digest but I get you on continuing to go to market - though a different one(s) rather than CSA. Margins are just so tight and the truck being the major recurring expense, and not used often, that was the first thing I considered getting rid of. No, having farm plates doesn't help on insurance, I still pay $500/yr on it. And since I haven't grossed $2500 on average the past 2 years the farm plates will be expiring, I will have to get regular (commercial, passenger, or combo plates, whichever is least) and do bi-annual inspections and emissions which could be a problem. But I have until May to figure that out.

I thought of trying small CSA with friends/family neighbors - say $100 for $10 worth of produce over 12 (or 15 weeks, if a good year). Just something to give me $1000 to work with right away. But you're right, I don't have those people as regular customers right now, so I can't expect them to say yes to $100 investment up front. There ARE a lot of CSAs in the area and they're very expensive, I was hoping to start small and inexpensive and then grow but try to keep costs reasonable for people. $500-600 for a lot of stuff you're not going to use (brassicas and leeks) is a lot of money. I was hoping starting small with people who were eager to help me build my business by investing and giving feedback could give me insights into what the larger market wanted for produce.

You made lots of good points and I will address them in later threads as I work my way through this (WHERE to begin with business plan?), but I was asking about markets. Its hard now that the season is over, I can check out the new Avon market I contacted, the Avon library market is over so I can't see how foot traffic is. But the one I'm at looked good too, it wasn't until I got into it that I realized that people were passing me by to go to the other (mostly the 2 big) vendors, and that vendors were dropping out. I don't know if there's any way to avoid that happening again - just look to see how many vendors are returning to the Avon market(s) next year?

I missed the chance to get a banner for $25 and business cards for $10 (though if I wanted a map on the back it would be double). I imagine Vistaprint will run specials over the next 8 months or so. But do you think that's a good move? I have been leery of advertising with FB b/c I am still trying to figure out how it works, and don't know how much it costs, what the ROI will be to "boost" a post.

Thanks for the nice words about my produce - I love tomatoes and peppers, it's an obsession (esp. the tomatoes), I try to grow unusual, good-tasting varieties you can't find anywhere else and I communicate that enthusiasm to my customers. I've realized that exotic peppers are not where the profits are (though I found a farm to the south of us selling ghost peppers for $1 each!), and that I have a hard time growing the huge bell peppers people are used to in the grocery stores so I am trying to find some good sweet peppers. The HT should help with getting those to market earlier.

It's just very disappointing to put so much effort, heart and soul into finding and growing the best varieties and then have someone opt for "regular" tomatoes as my mom calls them that are less expensive, or iceberg or romaine lettuce. I figure if the grocery stores are stocking them, SOMEONE must be buying the heirloom tomatoes and the personal-sized lettuces, etc.

I see people marketing stuff that I would give to soup kitchen (not even food pantry) to be used ASAP - or use myself - with cracks and splits and spots and wonder how they can keep customers, while I can't GET customers. Marketing, visibility, frontage, is what I think it boils down to - they've built the customer base, as you said, and can maintain it even if quality isn't the best, while no one knows I exist. THAT's what I need to change.

This is the big (town-owned) farm in town that most people have their CSA with (and complain about the cost but they seem to have plenty of customers). Notice that they have things like edamame and hot peppers. Should I try to grow the same things but sell at lower price, they are growing an awful lot of different crops to fill out the shares for 20 weeks, I might only get 15 (maybe still with a gap in early summer) but believe I can do it for much less (at least as a CSA, I'd have to see if they have a farm stand what their retail prices are).

I see on their website they have a farm store they sell things from other farms at - should I see if I can wholesale to them, even if they're marking up quite a bit? I don't even know if they'd take stuff that they grow themselves, or only take things like beef, cheese, maple syrup. They did call me a couple of years ago about preserves, first wanting me to wholesale to them and I said I wasn't allowed, then they thought they could have teenaged volunteers making preserves from their berries, but I told them AFAIK they either had to have a commercial kitchen or be a residential farmer. I don't know if they went ahead and built a commercial kitchen or not.

Here is a link that might be useful: CSA info

No Marla, I'm not a salesperson. I like to talk to people about my product (as on the thread we discussed people being oblivious and malna asked some questions), but I'm not at all aggressive/assertive like the maple syrup guy. I'll try to make eye contact and say hi to people, but I don't "hawk my wares".

Tom's advice is great, not just for you ajsmama but for all of us. I enjoyed reading it.

Tom, great post. Wow. Am I the only one that feels like going to a market right NOW? (its 11pm at night BTW). LOL!

here is what i look for in a market.
1) does it have a paid market manager and a governing board. The best markets have these two things

2) is there a fee? If not I will not go to that market as that means there is not paid management, of any at all. And that means there will be little marketing which means there will be lotted foot traffic and thus few sales. The best markets i have dine had pretty steep fees but this fees meant good sales, usually in the $450 to $900 range for me (and I am not a big farm but can grow enough to bring $1500 worth of product to market most weeks)

As far as basic marketing you have to say good morning/hello/good day to 100% of the people who pass by your stand. Yes it gets repetitive but it is very effective. Once eyes turn your way you are 50% to a sale. of they stop you are 80% of they way there. Than all you have to to do is start talking about you're stiff and how good it is.

One day about 15 years ago a college bud of my husband's stopped at our FM stand and said two things
"If you are sitting you ain't selling"
and
"If it isn't selling change the package and raise the price" (while making it look like you have dropped the price or kept it the same-i.e. make the package smaller). Those two bits of advice have made me a lot of sales over the years.

Also never ever burden a customers with your woes. To them you are always in a great mood. Even if you have a broken leg or just found out your parents have died you still smile and greet your customers warmly and never let them know anything might be wrong. When they ask you how you are you are always great, wonderful, sublime, etc.. This makes a HUGE difference in sales and building a customer base.

If you ask the same question 3 or more times, will you get a different answer???? There is no magic wand. All 3 threads have a wealth of info. If you want to be a successful farm marketer, follow the advice of these long time farm marketers who took their time and energy to write down their experiences. I have learned a lot and they have restated many ideas that I use at my farm.

In a nut shell, to be a successful farm marketer you need to do 3 things over and over. PLAN, PRODUCE, AND SELL!!!!!!!!!! JOHN

John - what I am trying to do in this thread is get ideas on what to look for when shopping for a new market, esp. over the winter when there are no markets running. Boulderbelt had the opinion that no fee = no paid MM = not much traffic (advertising, entertainments, etc.?). That's the sort of thing that I'm looking for right now. Tom had a lot of good ideas and I welcome them but I am trying to narrow the focus in this particular thread.

But any pointers on choosing a market?
Look for the hipsters and yuppies? Or look for a market close to where they live, anyway.

Where I'm moving to we4 have ONE market. Period.

"I thought of trying small CSA with friends/family neighbors - say $100 for $10 worth of produce over 12 (or 15 weeks, if a good year).
If you have enough neighbors to make this work, giving them first call on the produce might be enough to keep you going. Make some flyers and ask around.

IME (and YMMV), one of the most important factors is how long a market has been operational. Mine has been operating for decades and the customer traffic dwarfs that at all other markets in the city. I also temporarily attended a new market in a very yuppie area, but it was new and therefore sales were low. But I expect that to improve in the coming years if the market doesn't shut down.

Then there's the day of the week issue - weekday markets are great if they are downtown near where rich businesspeople work. Otherwise, Saturday markets are the best. Sunday markets are generally poor unless that's traditionally the only day that markets are open in the area.

Just throwing some opinions out there.

I agree, most free markets don't have the traffic that markets with fees do. I've done both, and if I was wanting to have with more sales, I would go to a fee market. I do know everytime our fees went up, it seemed like the number of customers also went up. I tried a larger city market, and found I had more sales with the same amount of produce (prices were higher), I had less produce to come home. Only reason I'm not at those markets now is because I don't want to work that hard. I would have to take 3-5x the amount, ans at this stage I'm not wanting to make jams/jellies 7 days per week.

Slimey - good point but established markets can be hard to get into. And when I did get into 1 it closed 2yrs later. The market that I've been trying to get into the whole time is Sunday and so is the new one I contacted. They just got back to me today - couldn't find my page on FB.

I will have to see if there's a Saturday market around here, I can't think of one. Simsbury Thursday night has been around 5 years or so, that might be a good one to get into, that's the closest thing to an urban center - or at least enough traffic going past on a weeknight. But I thought E. Granby was a good location too, right on the state highway, lots of parking. Simsbury is off the main road a bit, can't see it from Main Street and parking is tight. The Avon one with the longer season is also in a shopping center, might not be right by the road like E.G. is, but could be more traffic going past, as long as they have good signs. E.G. puts up lots of signs, Simsbury some, but I only saw 1 sign for "Farmington Valley Farmers Market" in Simsbury for a couple of weeks this summer and then I guess the town made them take it down. We'll see if Avon has signs -if not it may not be a good market to try.

That market still has a couple of weeks left in the season so I plan on checking it out on Sunday - will report back.

This post was edited by ajsmama on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 21:12

Here's the deal on the brand new market - they plan on running til Thanksgiving this year but may end earlier - I didn't see a ton of traffic for the 1.5 hrs I was there today but there was some, I realize this may not be a good example, next summer should be busier and hopefully stay busy once people know they're there.

They want to have guest chefs in, they do have a place that specializes in delivered dinners that joined, and will be selling prepared foods there, they buy (wholesale) from the other vendors who are gluten-free and organic (I'm not certified but only 2 are, and 1 of those doesn't do much for veggies, they do more lavendar and baked goods and are getting into wine - spreading it a bit thin IMHO).

The market fee is only $150 for the season, starting about mid-June (I was trying to talk them into June 7, be lucky if they decide the 14th) until end of Oct or maybe into Nov - so at least 20 weeks. If I go 15 weeks that's $10/week (no short-sessions). BUT...they also add a fee based on sales of $18 for $0-300 (according to their policy document), I thought she said 0-$50 was $18 and then it would be $26, etc. going up from there. So for my typical sales it would be $18 but the occasional $100 day (which I'd hope to have more of) it could be $26 (need to get that clarified) plus the season fee. Seems a little high?

Their policy also says you need to be FNMP/WIC certified, though you don't have to take EBT due to technology required. I'm not keen on the government inspections and regulations for taking the $3 checks - as I've said before, I'd rather just give the stuff away than deal with bureaucracy. This is in an affluent town, there can't be that many people using them, right?

EDIT: I read the policy in a hurry, just noticed that it said that they plan on having SNAP/EBT next year. I don't know how that's going to work - is the market going to rent a machine that takes the EBT card and credits the amount to the vendor using this new software/site? I have an iPhone but don't have a card reader, so I can't take credit/debit cards.

They're using a 3rd party site to do the management and I had to register and submit an application to the market in order to view the policies. What do you think of that? I haven't explored the site to see if it offers benefits for vendors, though I can see how it's better than pencil and paper for the MMs. There is only 1 other market (well, a string of markets in the New Haven area) in the state using this, it looks like this company just started this year too.

BTW, they said the Avon Library market did great this year, but that only ran for July & Aug. They might run longer next year, I will have to contact them. The closest Saturday market near here (and no FNMP) was Community Farm of Simsbury but I think that's an old listing, when I called them last year they weren't doing it. Their website doesn't list a market, just a farm stand for the farmers renting space there. There's one a bit farther away in Suffield but that's FNMP and the same 2 large farms that are at E.G. market would likely be there since E.G. is next to Suffield and the conventional farm actually is from (1 location) Suffield. There are some more in the other direction but again they're FNMP (and not in affluent towns so more likely to get more of those checks, and not the foodie population I'm looking for) and are a bit more of a hike.

Here is a link that might be useful: Market Management site

This post was edited by ajsmama on Sun, Oct 19, 14 at 21:38

I frankly have never liked the idea of sales based fee especially if it's added on top of your daily fee. If your daily fee is $10 and you pay another $18 on sales up to $300 your paying almost 10% if you can reach the $300 - less than $300 and your doing even worse. If you only reach $100 your looking at 28% - which seems to be about where you have been running. I doubt that you could cover your fixed production costs under that type of fee structure.

We have been in the FMNP programs for many years and have benefited greatly from it. While it appears things are a little different in Connecticut, there are no real hoops to jump through or inspections here. From what I read, you have to have a face to face with an official who does a one time look at your farm then you have to fill out a crop plan. Does not seem too bad. Once we were registered (it takes them a while to get your paperwork processes so don't wait till almost time to start the market) the hardest thing about them was stamping the coupons for deposit. They open up another revenue stream and bring people to the market that might not otherwise make the trip. Something to think about.

Tom

Yeah, at $20/week flat fee I have some weeks that I don't take anything home - so $10 flat (assuming I only make it to 15 markets) plus $18 or more based on sales (I can say it will be $18 only if it goes up to $300, I don't ever see selling more than that in a single day) is high, unless this market is consistently better than the others I've been in.

So what's involved in the "look around"? I'm leery of any government inspections, given the very restrictive FDA regulations they proposed last year (mostly for larger growers). I worry that someone will come in looking for a problem, and "find" one just b/c they can't give perfect scores to every farm.

And then there's the regulations and penalties surrounding the proper/improper cashing of the checks. Just doesn't seem worth it to me. Though if the inspection is no big deal, I guess I can just take the checks and not cash them (or don't even take them, just give the produce away like I usually do) just to say I'm certified. If I'm not getting a lot of income from the checks, it might not be worth the hassle of cashing them. Unless there's a penalty for not depositing them at all (who knows)?

And I really don't like the management site - I actually hope it doesn't process payments (better not keep bank account info, I'll pay the weekly in cash but the $150 I thought I'd do check). I registered and it sent an email back giving my username and password! It says it keeps track of Paypal transactions, I don't know about that. Doesn't seem very secure, the password is hidden when you type it in but then they email it to you? And it doesn't use https, even in "My Account" where they want you to record your sales for each market, even though their data security policy says they use SSL for transactions. They also want EIN/TIN which I don't have since I file Sch F with my 1040, I am NOT going to give them my SSN.

It's easy to get the EIN and then you don't need to give out your SS number.

The SFMNP (Senior Farmers Market Nutrition Program) I am assuming this is what everyone is talking about.

I am signed up for it here in Kansas. I started it 4-5 years ago. I was at a conference and they were signing up growers. I watched a 5 minute powerpoint, filled out some forms online and I was enrolled. Probably took 8 minutes. To renew every two years, I fill out a form and fax it back in. Very simple, no inspections, no tax stuff, no FDA regulation and honestly not worth it. I get maybe $50-100 a year in checks.

Just my experience.

Jay

The Senior FNMP has been temporarily discontinued here in CT due to lack of funding. But we still have FNMP, SNAP/EBT, and WIC. And the state does visit the farm (looking for what I don't know, maybe same things as GAP inspection?) and requires that you file a crop plan each year listing what you're growing, how many row ft of each and you can't sell anything not on the plan.

In Indiana, the WIC (Women Infant children) started before 2000 and the Senior started about 2003-4.

I didn't hear anything about the Senior being available this year. Hubby gets them now.

GAP is Good Agriculture Practices, meaning your need to have your rules WRITTEN down as to how to keep your hands and tools 'clean' along with your produce after picked. That's how it was explained to me.

This post was edited by myfamilysfarm on Tue, Oct 28, 14 at 16:52

Here in California, you can't sell anything at the farmers market that isn't on your Certified Producers Certificate. And the county will only issue that after an on-site visit to see the crops actually in the ground. That Certified Producers Certificate is also required for WIC/FMNP.

Late to the party but thought I might weigh in!

FNMP/WIC for us in MA required a one time 30 minute "meeting" where they explained what we needed to do. Every year after was just a form we filled out and sent in. No farm inspection, no crop plan unless the previous year you took in over $1000 in coupons. I have never taken over $1000 in coupons during a season and 1 year I was the only vendor accepting them and the market was within walking distance from the WIC office.

Most likely SNAP/EBT would be held through the market. The market would have a terminal and then issue coupons/coins to anyone who swiped. They would then use those coins at your booth and you would be reimbursed by the market.

Get a credit card reader, we use square, for the small fee it is worth it. The reader is free and you only pay when a transaction is made. I would rather sell produce via credit card and pay a fee than miss a sale because someone who was just driving by decided to stop and had no cash on them. Plus I have found that people who pay by CC spend more I rarely have a CC transaction less than $10.

Go to every market and plan to have produce at every market. Use a planting manager by either making your own, using a free one like Johnny's Seeds provides or pay for one such as Agsquared.

If you don't have enough produce every week to go to market don't even bother trying a CSA. CSA members are more relaxed than market goers (heck some of my CSA members don't even expect that I wash the produce before distributing it to them) but they still have expectations. They expect that you may not have tomatoes this week but the don't expect for there to be nothing. The goal of a CSA is to keep your members and keep them happy, especially if there are other options in the area. There are about 20 CSA farms within a 15 mile radius of me but we still manage to attract new members each year. Every CSA is different and every member looks for different criteria in a farm. The farm you linked looks to have a large CSA, not everyone wants to be part of a 100-300 plus member CSA so don't rule out a CSA in the future. My members like that I (the person who grows there food) am at every distribution to answer there questions and there isn't some work share person or summer intern. There are certain things that a larger CSA farm can't offer that a small one can, that would your niche.
You might want to consider a Market Share Program where people pay you up front and then come to the farmers market and pick what they want and it gets deducted from their "tab", in return for buying into your farm they will receive an increase on their investment. If they invest $100 they will get a tab for $115 to use at the market for the season.

I don't think anyone can tell you how to find the right market because farmers market have no consistent variable. What works at one market may not work at a market in the next town over. Attendance at a market one week may not accurately predict attendance the next week.

I sell at 3 markets.
One on Friday fee is $11.90/ market full season 21 weeks If I were to pay weekly it is $20/week, convenient but limited parking, lots of customers, people here are loyal to the farm it took 2 seasons before I started getting a customer base (we would be 1 of 2 farms to show up in the rain and die hard market goers would buy from us because we were there and then the next week would continue to their usual farms and skip us). We are 1 of 9 produce farms. 4 big farms, 5 others that are about our size. There is a college literally 500 feet from this market and maybe 1% of customers are college students. There are a lot of stay at home moms, business people on there lunch break and then the after work rush. This market is in a large town.

One on Saturday fee is $8.05/ market whole season, weekly $15/market, convenient and abundant parking, not a whole lot of people. We are 1 of 4 produce farms. We are a "bigger" farm at this market, with one other farm about our size with less variety and 2 smaller farms. Loyal to the market customers who purchase from all vendors to "spread the wealth".

One on Sunday fee is $18/ market whole season, weekly $25/market, convenient and abundant parking, great customer base and lot's of drive by customers. We are 1 of 4 produce farms 1 big farm, us and 2 small farms. This market is in a town and has a lot of vendor turn-over mostly vendors that sell sweets, jewelry, candles, sauces. Main vendors haven't changed (cheese, meat, produce, honey).

All three markets drop in customers once school starts in the fall. Saturday & Sunday are what I call community event markets, activities for the kids always something going on. Friday is a shopping only market people come to shop and then they leave.

I will also add that the Friday market was a well established market when we signed up and we have been with the other two markets since they started 2 years ago. All of these markets are within 13 miles of each other and die hard market fans will travel to them all in the same week. All three markets are also centrally located and have great access for biker and walkers. We also haven't missed a market ever unless the market closed. If the market is open we are there. We are located in a populated area, about an hour from Boston and my lowest market day to date was $30 my highest was $700.

Now I would like to know what do you think based on this information is my best performing market?

To answer your question about pointers on choosing a market.

1) proximity to my farm: personally I would take a 10 minute commute to a market and make $500 than an hour plus commute to Boston to make $1000. This mostly has to due with the way we harvest and prepare for a market. We harvest a lot of produce right before a market because we have no refrigeration. Vegetables that don't require refrigeration are harvested the night before.
2) time and day: a market can't interfere with my CSA distribution days. I generally steer clear of morning markets mostly because of the refrigeration issue and harvesting in late fall by flashlight isn't cool with me. Our 1 morning market stops at the end of September, but generally most markets in this area go until late October/ Early November.
3) other vendors: in my experience markets that don't have key main vendors don't do well. If there isn't a meat, bread, cheese, honey vendor I steer clear.
4) produce vendors: because of my experience with being at a market with a lot of produce vendors I usually steer clear of markets that have over 4 produce vendors. I also steer clear of markets that have a lot of repeat main vendors, if the same main vendors are going to every market in the area what sets that market apart from the others. nothing.
5) producer only markets: I won't even consider a market unless it is not producer only.

I am far from being an expert here. I would visit the markets fist and look from a buyers perspective. How does it look like, were is it situated who is selling. I would rather go on a market with fees and share a stall with someone to save on the fees. Then you would have a more diverse stall too. Did you try to sell to restaurants?