That is a good topic for discussion. Here is my take. Your mileage may vary.

My property had the trees thinned and some areas cleared. One area was not touched.

The part that was not touched at all I leave as is other than clearing out invasives and some poison ivy, as I'm very allergic.

Another area was selectively thinned had some paths and steps put in, and I only add plants native to our area, but being in the mountains, plant communities are highly variable, so it really is hard to know exactly what should be there.

Other areas that are more sunny are mixed with natives and non-natives. I favor natives but am not a purist in this area but I don't plant hybrids (just my preference). Some of this area was already planted when I moved in.

I don't have any answers for you. It is really up to you. My feeling is that plants evolved to be as they are for a reason and should be left or replanted to support nature, so I focus on natives. With that said, I don't have a problem with growing herbs, brambles, etc. But, I am very conscious of not planting anything that is invasive. I also only use organic fertilizers, etc., but I do use round up on poison ivy. The rest of the invasives/weeds I clear manually.

Jeanne

Thank you, Jeanne!

I guess my question is if there is reason to be a "purist" and only add plants indigenous to a specific natural community. There is an excellent book published by the Missouri Department of Conservation called The Natural Terrestrial Communities of Missouri, which I could attempt to follow. Remnants of a few "indicator plants" make it possible to identify a couple of natural communities on my property, but I'm not entirely certain. It gets complex.

I do think it would be interesting if homeowners tried to restore the natural landscape of their properties as they once were! I like to imagine whole neighborhoods of restored prairie, or woodlands or forest. But it is probably enough that planting natives is catching on at all.

One of the problems with restoring the original communities is that communitites change over time. Using the indicator plants is fine except without knowing how large the original community was how do you know what areas to plant. Depending on the community it could be as small as a couple of feet, steamside, or several miles upland prairie.

One poster on gardenweb was looking for a certain palm tree because she wanted to restore her garden to an original prehistorical time. Very interesting theory but without having the exact climate etc would be almost impossible since I sincerely belive that our climate has changed several times since the dinos roamed this world.

Next time I go to the Discovery Center I will have to look at the book.

I see what you mean, maifleur. I remember learning that all natural communities aspire to the state of forests. Glades, woodlands and prairies naturally fill in over time. I guess forests change too, with fires and re-growth. Still, some things may stay the same......an upland forest might have different vegetation than a lowland forest, with rock and soil type and aspect among influences.

I am no expert in any of this, that's for sure! But I do find it interesting....

I think it's best to plant a variety of plants, even if they're not native to your immediate area. That's the best way to find out what does well and what can keep your invasive plants from creeping back in and taking over when you're not looking. You may be able to get rid of the weeds on your OWN property but the seeds will still be sneaking in from surrounding areas.

What part of Missouri are you in? Gardenweb has an Ozarks Gardening forum if you're interested.
One thing I've learned about my area is that soil acidity can vary quite a bit from one yard to another.
The type of trees you have growing in your woods will have an affect on what you can grow under them.

Oops - I meant to provide a link to the Ozarks forum in case you want to check that out.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ozarks Region Gardening

I think you would get at least a few different answers if you consulted a bunch of experts. The practical reality for most of us is to live with anything native to one's general region (even more so for those of us in the east where we've been doing ourselves in with invasives for hundreds of years). The other thing is that as you gain some success against the invasives some natives are likely to migrate in or spread from what you have. I read somewhere that MO is supposed to have a lot of diversity from any one part of the state to the others so you have even more of an interesting question than most do on this issue if that's so. I would imagine that something native to MO, even if not native to your particular zip code, is still better than the invasives.

For years the Missouri Conservation Department listed grape Hyacinth as a banned invasive. I noticed a couple of years ago that it was dropped from the list. I was at the Discovery Center in KC at the time and asked one of the people there. The reason it was listed as invasive was because one small piece of land that they were trying to return to prairie had had a house with a garden in that property. As long as they were trying to remove the hyacinth they had to list it as invasive.

Since then when I go to the USDA/State site and look at invasive plants I click on the state. Sometimes only one or two of the counties in a state have a plant that is considered invasive. I imagine in some cases the situations may be similar, however to my knowledge, there is no way to find out. Most when asked the question of why, only in that county, will answer because they are invasive.

I know grape Hyacinth's are not native but use as an example only.

Thank you for the Ozark link, Christie. It is really interesting!

Maifleur, I'm glad you brought up the non-native invasives. Today I responded to a Gardenweb thread on Clematis terniflora, which is wildly out of control here and has infested an entire valley. It is banned in 7 states, unfortunately not including my own. Attempting to look up a resource for reporting it as a problem, I could only find state government listings for agricultural invasive weeds. I keep thinking, if only someone had reported kudzu, shrub honeysuckle, Japanese honeysuckle, etc. to some authority before control became impossible, maybe it would have saved a lot of land.

Unfortunately Gardenweb does not seem to have a forum category for Invasive Plant Species either, or at least not that I could find. Would it be something worth suggesting?

I ask as one who could use the advice and moral support, as my property could be a poster child for the degradation caused by invasive non-natives. I could give guided tours. Trying to restore these woods seems increasingly impossible. Since I moved here 5 years ago, all my "gardening" time goes into fighting invasives......I've chopped down and pulled innumerable honeysuckle shrubs, sprayed a fortune in Roundup on Clematis terniflora, endlessly unwound Japanese honeysuckle vine from saplings, pulled up English Ivy, Euonymus and Vinca until it literally gave me carpal tunnel syndrome....... and still can't say I've made progress. There probably aren't 5 square feet on this property that hasn't been invaded by one....or usually more, of the above. In fact, sometimes layered over each other. And they just keep coming back! It's like Sisyphus rolling the rock up the hill every day only to have it roll back down again the next day. I could just weep.

(And if you will forgive me additional self-pity......one of the few things that have heartened me is the annual appearance of Green Dragon. But even it has been afflicted by some horrible pimply yellow disease this year.)

Sorry. Guess I needed to vent.....

Do you mean that the same vines are coming back or new seedlings?

For some common invasive plants, you can find evaluations of different herbacides used for control. The Missouri Department of Conservation website has some good info on control for invasive shrub and vine honeysuckles. I didn't see anything for clematis terniflora on their website though.

I use RoundUp too. We have a large lot and a wide variety of weeds/brush. The label says "For best results apply during warm sunny weather (above 60 degrees F)" It may be less effective where it's shady and cool like your wooded lot. With some things, I have better luck with Stump Killer (not stump REMOVER) especially if I sort of carve down into the cut area to apply it so it doesn't all run off. Are the stems from sweet autumn clematis big enough to try that? With vines, it's difficult to spray the leaves with Round-Up without spraying other things as well so you may want to give the stump killer a try.

I know you must feel like you're fighting a losing battle. I don't blame you at all for the self-pity. Hang in there.

Sunleafmoon, believe me I understand and sympathize with what your struggle. It's difficult but you can make some progress (just keep repeating this to yourself). I do take some comfort knowing that I have saved hundreds of mature trees from premature destruction. As a strategy matter, some battles might best be delayed for a while. For instance, I have given up on vinca in some areas until I get some other things a little more under control since I don't need to rip up the vinca just to have it replaced with honeysuckle or something just as bad. I give higher priority to any vine that can hurt trees since mature trees just can't be replaced (unless you have millions to spend) and they help to shade out the invasives. Many people also select some areas to make more pristine and just do the occassional hacking on the rest of their land. The Nature Conservancy has some good info on various invasives on their website. "Planting Noah's Garden" by Sara Stein has some useful tips. The "Wild One's" website and organization has some useful info also. I think this forum has unofficially doubled as a forum on invasives a lot of the time. Hang in there. Oddly enough, I sometimes get some comfort by volunteering to help my county on other properties. You are doing a good thing.

Thank you so much, Bob and Christie! I can't tell you how much your encouragement means to me. I actually laughed (usually not an easy thing to do!) recognizing myself in your words.

Yes, I too have given up on the vinca for awhile, and have focused more efforts on honeysuckle vine. (Though the vinca just makes me sick, as it has escaped into the woods....including my neighbors' woods, and I feel helpless in ever stopping it. I presume my father planted it originally to stabilize a bank, not thinking it would get out of control. I am just lucky my neighbor doesn't sue me.)

But anyway.....I'm trying to foster saplings in an area where English Ivy, euonymus and honeysuckle vine are battling it out for turf. I patrol it every few days, unwinding honeysuckle from their trunks. I was thinking of dripping a few drops of concentrated Roundup from a squeeze bottle onto the upturned leaves of honeysuckle vine, that is, not too close to saplings. Do you think this would be safe to try?

It's encouraging to read that if this area eventually shades over, the honeysuckle vine might be less of a problem. That just leaves the English Ivy and euonymus to contend with, I guess. And the clematis terniflora in a lowland area.

I may try dabbing leaves of the Clematis terniflora with concentrated Roundup as well, since regular Roundup spray hardly causes it to flinch. And there are literally hundreds of them that pop up, across the lawn, through the woods, too many to dig out. I don't know if most are the same growth or reseeded, but I find them popping up an acre away from the originally infested area and suspect seeds from the uncontrolled growth down the road.

I've written an email to Gardenweb staff suggesting a forum topic on Invasive Plants. It would be wonderful if a nationwide Gardenweb discussion could help track and curtail the progress of invasives, particularly if individuals relayed information to state and local authorities. If communication possibilities like this existed years ago, maybe Japanese honeysuckle, shrub honeysuckle and kudzu could have been stopped in their tracks before they went this far out of control. And with global warming and climate change, gardeners may encounter problems in their regions they've never seen before. (I'm particularly worried about kudzu coming further north....like I don't have enough problems with invasives!)

Finally, Bob, I really do appreciate your community spirit. It is wonderful that you are involved in county volunteer work. A couple of weekends ago, I volunteered with a group to help senior citizens clean up their yards. And I've contacted a MDC agent to offer help with restoration of a local nature park, if they want it! You're right.......sometimes it is good to get one's mind off one's own troubles and help someone else.

Have you tried using REMEDY. It is a herbicide that you can paint around the base of the plants. One does not need to do a foliar application. I use it on consumption weed. Man, Ya gotta love that name. It is not as bad as what you are having to deal with. I mix it with diesel to get it yo stick and penetrate.

Spraying Roundup on the honeysuckle vine is o.k. just don't let it touch any leaves on your saplings. In Spring some of the nasties are more resistant to herbicide so I have read. I don't have experience with the clematis. English Ivy is relatively easy to pull up, it's just time consuming. The English Ivy is a battle you can probably win. If worried about your neighbor you can beat back the vinca to within your property line and just sort of contain it with an occassional attack on the edges.

I sympathize with the struggle of eradicating non-native invasives because this lot could have been a "poster child" too! Absolutely infested with most of the worst woody invasives in the Northeast US, some of them 40+ years old. I've spent about 4 years battling Oriental bittersweet, Norway maples, both of the invasive Buckthorns, shrub Honeysuckle, etc. Judicious use of herbicides is necessary at times - the Buckthorns for example (Frangula alnus and Rhamnus cathartica) are nearly impossible to eliminate without them. I spent $2K removing large Norway maples alone.

It is sad to see the natural areas around the neighborhood being damaged by invasives. On the plus side, I am winning the battle here on this little 1.25 acres. It has a nice selection of native canopy trees and smaller trees and I've planted about 100 native species of understory trees and shrubs, perennials and grasses.

I mostly plant species whose native range includes the Northeast US. But must confess that I enjoy stretching the range a bit and even grow a few species that are native to the Western US. I'm not a purist and also grow many ornamental non-natives that are not invasive, and really like tropical annuals (like Tithonia, Zinnias) which have about a zero % chance of ever being invasive in zone 5.

PS. about a year ago, I made a suggestion in the "Suggestions" forum about starting a forum on Invasive plants. That forum seems to be very slow although I do plan on posting back there at some point.

Here is a link that might be useful: Invasive plants forum?

Thank you, terrene!

I checked out your post and added to the thread, as I 100% agree with everything you said. In fact, the more I think about it, it could almost be considered less-than-responsible for Gardenweb to NOT have a forum on Invasive Plants. There are a lot of plants promoted in these forums and many gardeners may not know what is invasive, which could contribute not only to their own headaches but the problems of their whole neighborhood and even region.

So please, anyone else reading this thread, please add to terrene's request for an Invasive Plants forum. It would be a wonderful opportunity to promote healthier biological communities in and beyond our own backyards.

It is also good to read your success story, terrene. Today I dripped concentrated woody plants formula Roundup (stronger than the spray) on the leaves of Japanese honeysuckle vine growing out of a portion of a bank of vinca. It's a test area. I don't expect drips to harm the vinca, which is even more hard to get rid of than honeysuckle.

Roundup concentrate is supposed to be effective if you cut the stem of the woody plant and drip or brush it on. But in this test area alone (not even including over an acre overgrown with Japanese honeysuckle) there are probably about 100 tendrils sticking up....so many that it would have been time-consuming to cut each stem and apply Roundup. If the test area works, the drip method would save me a lot of time overall. And I need all the time I can get, because besides all the honeysuckle vine, there is still vinca, and English Ivy, and shrub honeysuckle, and euonymus, not to mention the multitude of weeds invading my prairie meadow area and....well, you get the picture!

Will let you know the results....

caveat weeder: Remedy is simply a brand name for triclopyr, aka garlon and others. It is related to plain old 2,4 D nand is very likely to drift and move in the soil if not applied very carefully, and during the dormant season. I have used Round Up at 25 % dripped onto the cut ends for a long time - the higher concentration seems important. With vines, my loppers are a major part of the operation - I use them to cut down as deep as I can, to get as large a stem as possible, and drip the glyphosate onto the cut end using a bottle with a pull-top on it (similar to a dish detergent bottle.)
It does not drift or move in the soil as triclopyr does. Glufosinate is also not as likely to drift or move, but
works seems to work best on grasses.
Stem treatments have helped me a great deal in getting ahead of the invasives. I almost never use a foliar spray, and the work has really decreased over time. Come to think of it, I do most of my "weeding" now in late winter, when things are still dormant and the woody stems are easy to find and cut - plus, no mosquitoes at that time of year.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pennsylvania forest service re:herbicides for bittersweet vine