dunno if this will clarify or not from my non-scientific viewpoint, but here goes. i had i. pennata for several yrs. then, after i got too vigorous in weeding that out, i found a source of seeds for i. quamoclit, which i'd seen and wanted really bad. anyhow, it seems more seedy/weedy than pennata, and comes up all over(no hope of weeding it all out)- but always with the extremely fine ferny foliage. i have some regular ipomeas(blue heaven, saucers, granpa otts, etc.- those are multifidas) that bloom at the same time and all over each yr, but have never seen them cross with or noticed any recognisable crosses of them and quamoclit(or pennata when i grew it). the common multifida ones cross every which way but loose with each other, but at least for me they haven't boogied with quamoclit. pup- i understood your question, but don't know the answer. it makes sense that it would be part of the genetic grab bag, but i haven't seen evidence of it. maybe your yard/experience is just that. i didn't mean that species don't or can't cross earlier, just that if the seeds are pure species, they should come true. we count on seedsman to label things correctly and breed them true. there's no way to really tell, though, just by the seeds(or plants), but i hadn't seen those 2 buggers cross or spontaneously mutate. however, because the common names are so similar, they certainly could get mixed up in a seed packet. and, who's to say some birds or storms didn't help along with some seeds from neighbor's yards? anyhow, i probably was making too many assumptions & should have kept my lip buttoned. i hope i didn't hurt any feelings. and, that's a good ? about what you call a species that can't cross. anyone?

Oh, I can relate to that. (Not having time to plant.) I have seeds that are five or six years old that I'm sure will have at least a 10 percent germination rate left in them, if I can ever get them in the ground. This summer, I planted almost all of my old pumpkin seeds directly out in piles of aged manure -- and got a really miserable germination rate. But the seven plants that made it (out of nearly 70 seeds, I'm sure) grew really well -- we were blessed with great weather this year. Next year, I'm going to start the pumpkin seeds in pots where I can keep an eye on them. And maybe I'll even get the blueberries in the ground (they've only been in a pot for two years -- I hope they survive one more winter in the green cellar). Thanks for the tip -- I'll take a look at Douglas's thread. Good luck next year! M.

Thanks to all for your comments. Viola, I am also thinking I should have bought in the fall. BoTann, what perplexes (and irritates!) me is every day at work I walk by some vine maples in very dense shade that have spectacular color. Ron, I can't imagine my compost is alkaline. I use Cedar Grove and homemade and the rhodies next to the vine maples are fine, but I'll think about having the soil tested. Since the consensus seems to be less water and I really can't imagine it needs more water, I guess I'll give it another year and water less. It should be pretty well established by now and be able to handle less water. Maybe if I shake my shovel at it and mutter a few threats that will stress it out, too. Can't hurt, right?

I'm doing a simular thing. I have a huge redwood in my small yard, and others nearby and I'm in the process of transplanting native sword, cliff and chain ferns to my small shadey yard. I also have a small garden bed dug out about 6 feet away from the tree. The garden bed was dug carefully, leaving the tree root that ran through it undisturbed. Redwoods have very shallow and small root systems for their size. Not only do you not want to hurt the tree, you don't want to damage the root system because in a high wind- the tree could fall and hurt *you*. If you damage some of the smaller "hairy" roots that shoot off from the main root- that's OK. But you don't want to dig anything but smaller shallow holes within 4 - 6 feet. Native ferns should do very well under redwoods if they have enough drainage, water and loose soil. And plenty of leaf mold or needle mold ("duff"). I think watering them occasionally throughout the first summer would help. I'm also going to try toad lillies and rain lillies. And oriental and asiatic lillies further away from the tree in partial shade. Oxalis does very well, but can be invasive. You might also consider plants with shallow root systems or potted plants closer to the tree. There are a few native ca irises that will grow near redwoods. I think about any acid loving woodlands plant would do OK, particularly the ones used to our dry summers and wet winters. Any native perenial though, I'd water occasionally the first summer to help it "set". If your soil is clay- you will need to make sure water can drain from the bottom of any small holes you dig for plants. Otherwise you get a "bowl" effect, and the clay holds all the water in the hole and the plants will drownd in the winter. You can dig little trenches and either fill them in or put in a little pvc pipeing with holes drilled into it into the trench first for a permanant bed. I would leave the needles there. They are the perfect fertilizer for anything that would grow there. Most woodland plants don't like ammended soil. If it is compacted of clay, you can carefully dig in a little leaf mold or duff by hand with a small trowl. Then be sure there is a covering of needles on top. The needles will also keep the soil from compacting.