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Roses

Posted by Chelone z6 so. Maine (My Page) on
Sat, Jun 12, 04 at 14:03

I see many of you are devotees of roses. I am a reluctant rosarian. What that REALLY means is I don't have it together enough to adequately deal with the things that routinely go "wrong"... .

Henry Kelsey suffered mightily last winter (HUGE winterkill), and it's time to get serious... how do I control blackspot (not bad), aphids using organic methods? need help BIG TIME with timing the applications. (Please don't send me to the Rose forum; tried it some time ago and was summarily rebuffed and referred to FAQ, which I'd read and DIDN'T answer my questions!)


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Roses

I just started with roses, and sorry to say am having great luck. I'm finding tough love is very effective with roses. In April I attempted to remove a very huge ugly dead looking stubby stump of a rose bush. The previous owner apparently just stuck it in the ground without too much thought to landscape design. Anyway, I grabbed a shovel and tried to dig out the stump. I had most of the dirt removed, but the roots were very deep and not budging much. I shook it, kicked it, tried to stab the roots with a shovel, your basic nut job stuff. I finally gave up and pushed the dirt back around the bush and left it alone. It has since sprouted into a huge, beautiful rose bush with currently 7 big red blooms on it. Go figure. I have three such bushes. The ones that I did not torture aren't doing nearly as well. I also planted a climbing rose, (American something) and a new rose bush, (can't remember variety). Those are both doing well. So far I don't see any sign of disease. The blooms only seem to last for a few days which I don't think is normal, but other than that, they look good. I've been really careful about watering the ground around the bush rather than hitting the leaves in the hopes that it keeps the pests at bay. I have also tried to get info on the roses forum, but they seem to cater to the experienced crowd.


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RE: Roses

I love roses, but I'm also a reluctantant rosarian. With the past Winter we had, the roses did suffer, I didn't loose any but they just didn't come back as well as normal. Yesterday I severely pruned back a peace rose that had bloomed but was fully covered in black spot. I then learned after pruning it that I didn't need to, but all I should have done was remove all the blackspotted leaves. This from a dear friend who is a "rosarian". I have a Mr. Lincoln or Abraham Lincoln that is blooming profusely now, but also has black spot, and will tackle that one Monday. As far as Organics, all I usually do is fertilize them with alfalfa tea, a little epsom salts and fish emulsion every month starting in March, and ending in August.
Alberta


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RE: Roses

  • Posted by Trudi_d 7, Long Island (My Page) on
    Sat, Jun 12, 04 at 17:19

Honest to goodness ~ Last year I took my lawn mower and mowed almost every rose down. So long black spot, powdery mildew, aphids ~ I can't use non-organic controls as Hubs gets asthma from them. I have no regrets, some of the roses have come up from the root stock they were grafted onto and that new growth is very healthy. More than likely the stock will produce simple red roses that bloom once in spring, it's a trade off between everblooming yukky plants or once-blooming healthy canes.

T


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RE: Roses

I am also a new rose lover. I started with a Mary Rose, and then went on to buy 6 hybrid teas. Next was a Pat Austin, followed by a scarlet Meidiland, and am waiting on a Reines de Violette. I'm kind of sorry I planted the HT's now - I'm falling in love with the old fashioned roses!!

One question - where on Long Island can you get alfalfa pellets/meal? I have read so many glowing endorsements for this stuff, and I want to try it myself! Anyone know?


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RE: Roses

Hi There - My daughter Alexis is the Rose lover and yes I have become hooked. She got a Rose 10 years ago and it still lives and is doing well - a Tiffany. We thought last year we lost it and also this year but I pruned it all the way to the ground and mulch it with alfalfa straw. It is doing great so we transplanted it to our front yard.

We don't spray as she has a chronic illness - we however have been lucky not getting BS - if we have a few leaves with them I cut them off. As for aphids - we blast the Roses with water then I lightly dust them with flour. We make our own compost - manure, veggie clippings, egg shells, peat moss, etc and add the free compost from our dump to ours- I also add banana peels, scratch in alfalfa pellets and water well - mulch with seaweed -then newspaper around the rose then cedar mulch. Some gardens I just leave the seaweed mulch - we like the look. We are not picky but we have been lucky - but last year we did lose five Roses - which I was ticked because they were expensive mail order Roses and of course their warranty was only 60 days.

This year we bought more bare roots as an experiment but the container Roses we have bought locally at Hart Farm always are extremely healthy and seem to stay that that way as well as survive the summer. That is where we got Tiffany from. All our Roses are in mixed beds. Roses are late here in my opinion - well at least in our yard - leafed out and we do have many buds but only one Rose has bloomed that that was given to my daughter this spring a grade # 2 Angel Face!

I would say VISIT your local nurseries for disease resistant plants that would do well in your area. Tell them your problems and they will offer good advice -once you find a good nursery stick to them. Its a bit more expensive but in my opinion worth it. Once you find what works for you then experiment with the online mail order roses.

Nothing will kill Heart 'n' Soul, Hot Cocoa, Tiffany, etc. Just do an extra load of protection - I think we will probably have another cold winter. I think floribunda's or OGR are a safe bet - just do some homework - also see if there is a local Rose Society in your area - they can be great for resources. I just hope the bareroots we planted make it throught the winter - in the fall we cover them with oak leaves.

Don't give up! :-)
Good Luck and keep us posted
Chantel :-)


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RE: Roses

Cupoftea
I found alfalfa meal in Agway in Rocky Point a few years ago. I think it was a 40 lb. bag and its lasted. Call a few of the Agways to see if they have it.
Alberta


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RE: Roses

I join the crowd of reluctant rosarians as well. I'm determined not to be scared anymore. I planted a rose last year for the first time-the kind you plant with the box and all. I think I would be thrown off the Rose forum for that move! Well, it's growing and blooming, despite it's leaves being truly decimated by...rose slugs? Caterpillars? I just bought 2 meidiland 'Alba' which I hope will do well with my Lychnis Coronaria 'alba' and white impatiens.
Lynn in Manorville


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RE: Roses

I'm new to roses too. Just planted 5 this spring for the first time in over 20 years. All the ones I bought claimed to be disease resistant--we'll see about that.
Anyway, I have seen somewhere that 1 tsp of baking soda and a squirt of dishwashing liquid(to make it stick) combined with a quart of water will help with black spot. I plan to try it if I need it.


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RE: Roses

Sorry to hear you didn't have a good experience on the Roses Forum. I spend way too much time there, so I'm glad to spend some time here instead!

There is a great product called Mills Magic Mix that a lot of folks on the Roses Forum recommend. It has alfalfa in it, but also lots of other good stuff. You don't have to use alfalfa if you use the Mills Magic.

Here's my feeding schedule:
April and July - Mills Magic Mix
Every 2-3 weeks: Neptune's Harvest liquid fertilzer (soil drench and foliar spray)

There is a lot of great info on the Organics Rose forum, and currently there is a thread for organic measures on the Rose Forum. You don't have to participate, just read for great tips! :-)

My aphid tip:
Plant the perennial "gaura whirling butterflies". The aphids love it, more than the roses. You'll have to replant the gaura every year though, since the aphids really do a number on it, and the plant is pretty sickly by the end of the season. But your roses will thank you.

I'm attempting "vinegar" as a control of blackspot. Its hard to say if its working or not, since I do other things (like the Neptune spray). But I do have a good organic control for Powdery Mildew: milk. Zaps it out in ONE DAY! Can't get more organic than milk! (I mix with water and spray on the foliage).

Angie


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RE: Roses

Roses - I love 'em, but don't do very well with most of them. I killed my yellow hybrid tea, although my red hybrid tea (I've forgotten the variety)is not doing too badly - it's not producing the way it would be if I were more diligent, though. I also bought two new floribundas from Jackson and Perkins this year - Marmalade Skies and Honey Perfume. Both of those seem to be doing fairly well (so far - jury's always still out on roses until you get to year two or three, IMHO).

Here's what I do for them - I feed them chopped banana peels, Epsom salts, and Neptune's Harvest fish fertilizer. Aphids - in addition to companion planting (I use garlic around my roses), I spray with insecticidal soap or soapy water from time to time. Haven't had trouble with black spot yet, but I hear cornmeal helps with that? The bane of my existence for ALL my plants is the annual onslaught of Japanese beetles - I have tried milky spore, nematodes, Neem oil, all to no avail - this year I will resort to Pyola (plant-based insecticide, but a bit too heavy duty to classify as organic).

When it comes right down to it, though, my best roses are my beloved rosa rugosas - the classic dark pink and the alba that I have. Along with hydrangeas, they are the hallmark of Northeast coastal gardens - my childhood summers on the southeast coast of Maine are full of memories of rosa rugosa in bloom on the beach. Next to no care, they survive almost anything - love 'em!


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RE: Roses

Rose black spot spry:
1 table spoon baking soda
2.5 tablespoons horticultural oil or 2.5 tablespoon vegetable oil or 1 tablespoon dish detergent
1 gallon of water
Spray plants every 14 days.
I also use neptunes harvest and banana peels and compost as pck me ups.
Half digested compost is better and it is mixed in with the planting soil.
Soappy water spray seems to work on aphids.


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RE: Roses

Roses are really easy. I bought my first rose in spring 2002 and have more than I can count now, as I became addicted. I spray fungicides on my roses every 2 weeks. That keeps the foliage near perfect. I do not use insecticides except for Bt, which is organic, when the inch worms come, and they are now gone. Otherwise, no insecticides.

I use Mills Magic Mix, Rose Tone, and sometimes Neptunes and Easy Feed (sold by the Mills Magic Mix company). Oh, and alfalfa pellets from Agway.

To me, the beauty of a rose, the incredible beauty, the fragrance that some of them have, is just amazing. I don't consider myself a gardener, as I have no clue about the science behind the soil, etc., latin names, and a lot of the whys. I just do some research, put it into practice, and I've veen very successful ...so far! Roses are great, not hard at all and are very rewarding! Plus, they bloom from spring to frost, a big plus.


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RE: Roses

Count me in with the rose lovers. It is trial and error with roses on the Island (LBI, NJ). I have luck with Autumn Sunset, New Dawn, Charles de Mill, Topaz Jewel, Bonica and have just put it Old Blush, Cornelia and Penelope. They all seem to be doing well. Madame Alfred Carrier and Fredrick Mistral are problem roses for me and it is just a matter of time for Fredrick!

PS Hang in there on the Rose and Antique Rose forums. They are passionate people with strong opinions. I am usually a lurker there.


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RE: Roses

Thanks so much for the good advice, everyone! I will begin the regimen this weekend and simply mark it on the calender, just like a dentist app't..

It was very discouraging to see the rose canes destroyed this spring... they were so pretty last year. But, I was at a local nursery and ALL their shrub roses in their display gardens were kaput, and mine are sprouting vigorously from the crowns. So, armed with your sage advice and techniques I will look at this garden set back as a "new beginning". How's that for optimism? ;)


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RE: Roses

In the latest issue of Yankee magazine there is a feature article on a lady who lives in the colder part of Maine. She grows about 400 roses and from the photos, it didn't look like she ever had dieback. I think she said she grew a lot of gallicas (once blooming antique roses).

Have you considered other disease-resistant once bloomers such as albas?

Good luck!

(Hi Susan and Carol!)

Angie


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RE: Roses

Okay, I'm finally starting to get some discoloration on some lower leaves. If I spray, do I still have to pull off the affected leaves, or will the spray kill the fungus and just leave the leaf discolorated?


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RE: Roses

I never really gave that much thought, at all! I'm all ears, kids...


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RE: Roses

Okay, here's what I've learned on the Roses Forum (I feel like an ambassador!), from people who know way more than me. Hopefully Carol and Susan and other rose growers in the region will chime in.

Rudy, if you can stand the sight of them, allow the discolored leaves to remain on the bush until they fall off naturally (and them clean them up off the ground if you can). The plant needs as many leaves as possible for food production, and the diseased leaves are still able to perform that function.

Chelone, I'm surprised Henry Kelsey had such considerable dieback for you since it is listed as a zone 3 hardy rose. In any case, there could be other factors at work here. Was the shrub weak going into the winter season (lots of blackspot?). This rose is apparently known to have BS tendencies. Also, where did you buy your rose? Roses vary in quality depending on the source, and this may or may not become apparent until after several years of growing the rose. Anyways, the best all-around vendor (in my opinion) for roses is Antique Rose Emporium in Texas. They are finished shipping for the season, so you'll have to wait until next year.

Also, definitely look into the once blooming ALBAS and GALLICAS, two classes of roses known for cold hardiness and all around good behavior. For cold zones, once-blooming roses are the way to go. You get a show-stopping, glorious show and then the rose is done. It has no desire to bloom again for the season and therefore "knows" to go into dormancy and thus is more winter hardy. Roses that repeat and repeat their blooms don't always "know" how to go dormant, and therefore are more prone to dying in the winter.

Am I saying stuff you already know? In any case, hope this helps. I could go on and on, but don't want to bore!

Angie


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RE: Roses

You did just fine Angie. I am a fan of ARE and Ashdown.


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RE: Roses

Thanks Carol!

I only have 1 rose from Ashdown, but its doing so beautifully, I may have to get some more! :-)

Angie


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RE: Roses

Definitely look into the albas and the rugosas. No black spot and they were totally hardy after this past severe winter. I got an alba semi-plena for next to the ocean-facing deck, perfect in white with yellow centers against the varied blues of the water. Not much scent. The rugosas, about 5 varieties, are all heavily and heavenly scented and they also like seaside air. But NEVER spray them -- I read that the usual rose disease sprays will kill rugosas.


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RE: Roses

My Henry Kelseys came from friends who had a nursery in zone 4 NH. According to my book on roses (Hardy Roses by Robert Osborne; Garden Way Publishing c. 1991) Henry Kelsey is listed as hardy to zone 4, not zone 3.

I've always kept them fed; the bed is very deep (close to 36"), irrigated (emittors DON'T spray, they bubble), and mulched. I've used insectidal soap, but have never gone after blackspot seriously as Henry Kelsey is listed as, "highly resistant to powdery mildew. Although it is not immune to blackspot, this fungal disease is not a serious threat." .

I suspect, though, that you've raised VERY good questions! A plant that is not in "tip top" form going into winter will likely be the one that suffers the most when conditions become adverse. And THAT'S what last winter was for us. Fall was pretty "normal", and we started out with snow cover. But a thaw saw snow cover retreat and then it was over one month with temps. that barely exceeded 10 degrees! The wind was relentless and the fact that my roses "folded" is no real surprise when I carefully consider all they endured. In the zone 4 NH where they flourish, good snow cover is routine and predictable. Here, it is NOT.

Interestingly, New Dawn, on a southern trellis (and OUT of the prevailing winds) fared MUCH better. She is growing, has buds (so do the HKs) and suffered minimal die back. She receives nothing special in care, either.

It was just a tough winter, and sometimes that happens. But now I'll be more vigilant and hopefully I'll get the "fussing" to a schedule that won't make me feel like a slave... think it'll work?

What I'd rather have than rugosas is a Hugo Rose...


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RE: Roses

The "Rose Dr." at the Boston Flower show told me that Windex gets rid of Japanese Beetles. I doubt that's very organic, but I'm sure it's better than a chemical pesticide. I'm very lucky in that I've never seen a Japanese beetle in my yard, even when I had a pool. I'm also lucky with aphids and black spot.
I have two rose bushes that I planted when I first moved into my house three years ago -- of the "body bag" variety -- and they're doing fine. A Martha Stewart Old Fashioned rose that I planted at the same time died after the winter of '03. I've bought several David Austins over the past two years, I love the way they look, but they are a lot more prissy than the cheapies.
I've had luck on the Rose Forum -- I think it helped that I identified myself as a newbie.


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RE: Roses

Well, my two favorite roses were boxed and I planted them in the box before I learned it was better not to. No harm, no foul.

The Windex will keep the JBs very clean. I don't need clean JBs, and they are already shiny enough. I need them gone or dead.

There are many, many roses that can be grown without spraying. There are folks in the southeast who grow many roses no-spray. But, if you want high-centered Hybrid Teas that look like they came from the florist, you have to spray. If you like rose with "antique" or "old garden rose" form and fragrance, then there are plenty of roses to choose from. In a pinch, the Knock Out series (Knock Out, Pink Knockout, Blushing Knockout) are the most resistant modern roses on the market. Easy to grow, no spray needed. And roses in the Rugosa class, they grow here next to the boardwalks and in the sand dunes and I know the municipal workers just hedge clip them down in the spring and that's it. They are all blooming beautifully now.


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RE: Roses

I had an eye opening experience over the weekend. I was at Lowes buying plant center items. They had a large selection of roses that had obviously been sitting there awhile, aned and all of the plants were touching each other due to the amount of plants available. All of the hybird teas had leaf mold. All of the climbers, regardless of variety were clean, and the other varieties were hit or miss from plant to plant. Anything with orange/yellow roses looked great. I found this all interesting because my boss, who's a rose nut, always tells me to steer clear of hybrid teas. When I see plants already having problems before it's even out of the store, it's a no brainer.

I have two climbing and two "other" varieties. (I'm not hard core enough to keep track of the names) I've never had to apply anything to any of them. Instead of educating myself on the care of rose problems, I tried to chose varieties that don't run into problems. Tough rose love, I guess.


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RE: Roses

to all, thanks for the good advice, I wasn't sure about feeding my roses I intend to try Mills Mix. Just one comment on using milk for black spot, make sure its fat free, I used it last season and black spot was minimal.


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