Gypsum will neither loosen the soil nor alter the pH.

Trees in the Fraxinus family, such as your Ash, have been determined to show low allelopathic properties (not zero, mind you, but low). However, your plans of extensive digging around the tree, filling with 6 inches of soil, hammering in a metal border, etc. are all pretty terminal for the tree!

@ rhizo, allelopathic properties? Am I not in the new to gardening forum? English please. I didn't say anything about a metal border, I was going to use a plastic edging. And Gypsum SULFATE, should alter ph a little. READ MY WORDS, ALL OF THEM. Pet peve!!

First, gypsum is gypsum. There is no such creature as gypsum sulfate - gypsum is calcium sulfate (CaSO4-2(H2O)) but it has NO affect on altering soil pH.

Second, if you are new to gardening, you are going to encounter countless words and terminology you are unfamiliar with. Get a good dictionary or try Googling. And there is an entire GW forum dedicated to allelopathy and other difficult planting situations......just check the list of forums

Third, you get much better responses and suggestions if you try using a little honey rather than vinegar......slamming someone who has taken the time to respond to your question with a perfectly reasonable (and quite accurate) answer is not going to engender a lot of additional responses.

My pet peeve??? Someone who expects to be handfed all the info they need. Try doing some research - the Internet is a remarkable resource. And there ARE still libraries and books in existence :-)

First off, I didn't SLAM anyone. Second off, I read ALOT, that's why I needed clarification. Third off, questioning the intelligence of someone with an IQ of 147 is laughable. Fourth, handfed? Isn't the purpose of these forms to help eachother? AND, I really don't care about people who don't like the way I come off, there are plenty of people with thicker skin who can handle it and like me just the way I am. LASTLY, this is stupid highschoolish drama, grow up!

Omy! I love it when someone boasts about his or her IQ.

Check out the very helpful attached link regarding your question.

Here is a link that might be useful: Click here

Mel, you asked about allelopathy but didn't know what it was called. I don't understand your distress about learning a new word. Is that not why you are asking questions and reading ALOT? The polite thing to do when you ask a question and someone takes the time to share their knowledge is to say "thank you" whether or not you like or agree with the answer. Maybe you just didn't know. Screaming at them to read your words is appallingly rude, inappropriate, and extremely unusual behavior on a gardening forum. I wish you luck improving both your gardening and personal interaction skills.

It's not distress, I simply prefer a definition to the word. I winged because I didn't say anything about "digging or metal boarders". I don't understand all the assumptions when my words indicated no such reasoning. And thank you all for responding. I had hoped to encounter a more sophisticated group here so the assumptions were very disheartening. Coupled with the attack on my style of confrontation I felt was very immature. Does one HAVE to express every thought just because its not a face to face encounter? This is not acceptable in the real world and shouldn't be here either. I apologize for becoming defensive and argumentative. I hope to find some classier people soon. As these interactions are unacceptable. Thank you.

I also wonder why it is so horrible to be proud of ones accomplishments? That IQ has won me two invitations to the White House. Along with invitations from top business men and women internationally. You're Damn right I'm proud! So what?

It's kind of a silly thing to immediately announce to people as you are introducing yourself to them though, don't you think? That type of 'accomplishment' usually reveals itself, over time. This is a learned group - you couldn't have asked for more comprehensive and reliable help than you might have gotten with gardengal or rhizo if you'd given them that opportunity. Between the two of them and their combined expertise, you would have trouble finding gardeners who could help you more with soil types, plant requirements, garden design, insects and pests.

You never did add your climate or gardening zone as asked either - that likely calls a halt to any kind of advice that could be given no more pertinent information than you chose to share. Good luck with your garden, and please do look into your PH and fertility further before planting - you've barely made a beginning in correcting issues there.

Let me just say this and then perhaps we can all move on to a different topic and with a more polite and friendlier atmosphere all around.

For someone with a professed "high IQ" and who reads ALOT, your online communication skills leave a lot to be desired. You did make references to a 'poundable edging' and to set-in stone to build up the bed, so comments against the suitability of such a procedure were well-advised. You also questioned the validity of the response stating that gypsum has no affect on altering pH. As some one who has already stated they were new to gardening (and posting in a forum dedicated to the same), disputing the information/advice you are being given is a bit presumptuous. You ask for help and then question the accuracy of it? What's up with that? And then you follow that rather unfortunate choice of words by using caps - the online equivalent of shouting - to express your displeasure, and quite rudely at that.

Maybe I am assigning you greater skills than you possess, however when I am presented with new terminology in a subject I am not all that familiar with, the first thing I do is look up the definition. I don't ridicule someone for using 'big' words, especially when it is their field of expertise. The onus is on me to figure it out.

Finally, you come back with several additional posts that attempt to defend what is essentially indefensible behavior, calling us - who went out of our way to help and provide accurate, meaningful advice - childish, immature, unsophisticated and lacking class. And then throwing your 'superior' IQ in our face -- that is really unnecessary and doesn't speak much for you. Personally, I don't give a flying fig tree what anyone's IQ is - it's not material to the discussion.

I'd suggest you go back and reread everything that was written in this thread and then take a look in the mirror. Who exactly is being childish and immature? Apparently having a high IQ and possessing common courtesy are not necessarily compatable traits.

You know what? These kind of "discussions" are so not worth the time given them. I was attacked, and I responded. Maybe I am nieve to gardening, but gypsum sulphate was sold right next to the lime and advertised to alter ph. I was not making up a non existent thing. I do want the truth from experienced people, but take offence to being called a liar, as anyone would. I get very frustrated with useless bickering, especially the internet variety. So, just let this thread die already. It only serves to piss each other off, and what a waste of time. We are all wrong for having this discussion in the first place.

Product labeling can be confusing for someone who is not familiar with all of the assorted items on the market sold to 'improve', 'enhance', or change soil chemistry or physical structure. You are very much not alone.

I suspect that you saw Aluminum sulfate next to the lime products. Or perhaps the Aluminum sulfate was right next to the gypsum (calcium sulfate). The former is a product commonly sold to lower the pH, as well as add aluminum to bring out the blue color in Hydrangea macrophylla cultivars.

Gypsum would never be labeled as 'gypsum sulfate'....unless, of course, it was a hand-made label written by someone with very little knowledge. Like THAT'S never happened in a garden center, lol.

Add that to the frustratingly persistent clay soil myth that continues to be perpetuated by big box store clerks, and others without an understanding about what gypsum does (and does not do) and I can easily see how confusion can be fostered.

Gypsum IS valuable for adding calcium to a soil for crops requiring lime grown in soils that do NOT need a raise in pH. I add to the mix when I make my own potting medium. It also adds sulfur to the soil for those crops that have high requirements for that chemical element. Growers of cabbage, kale, broccoli, collards (and the like), use large quantities of gypsum, for example. I think that we are all familiar with the sulfur-y smell of steamed cabbage!

It can also be used, in those few places that have naturally occurring sodic soils (sodium). Such soils can lose their natural structure, making them slow to drain. This phenom, however, has absolutely nothing to do with clay.

Some coastal areas with a high saline water table or sodium in the irrigation water, can benefit from applications of gypsum, too. The chemical reaction between the gypsum and the sodium allows the harmful salt ions to be taken out of the soil solution and leached out of the reach of plant roots. I've seen tractor trailer loads of gypsum used on the fancy smanchy golf courses all along the east coast for the sole purpose of taking the sodium out of the soil chemisty equation and allowing for healthy soil and healthy grass.

I top dressed 15 acres of container grown plants with handfuls of gypsum when the well in my coastal region nursery started pumping brackish water for a short time. Saved by the bell!

SO! The truth about gypsum is that it will not alter the pH, it will not improve the consistency and drainage of clay soils, it will add calcium and sulfur to the soil, and can latch onto harmful sodium ions, removing them from the possibility of plant uptake.

Thank you! I appreciate an intelligent, non emotional answer. Ok, I also bought Aluminum Sulfate, but after putting what seemed to be a lot down, hydrangia is still pink. I gave up. I'm in zone 4a, very compact clay soil. Last year a soil test yielded a ph of like 9, and barely registered any other components. Fertilized last year, fertilized again a month ago. When can I soil test again? Saw someone suggests distilled water. Tap water really makes that big of a difference? Also added heavy dose of peat moss to new planting bed. What can I do for established bed? I put much down last year. Thank you so much.

Did you use a home soil test kit? Home testing kits are extremely unreliable in the accuracy of their results and are really not worth the money you spend on them. And using distilled water is absolutely necessary to get an accurate pH reading. Distilled water carries a neutral pH and will not skew results - tap or well water will have all sorts of additives and/or natural conditions that will alter its pH so that the test results produced will not be accurately reflective of existing soil conditions.

You need to be very careful in the application of aluminum sulfate and use only as the product label directs. Improper application of aluminum sulfate can bring aluminum upto toxic levels very easily and many plants will react to even a very slight increase in aluminum very badly.

I'd suggest you have a professional soil test done. Many county extension services will provide this service for free or at a very low cost or they can direct you to a professional testing lab in your area. Having a professional soil test done is really the only way to know exactly what your existing soil conditions are and how to improve or change them. Test results will come with recommendations for amendments based on what you may be growing (vegetable crops, ornamental plants, lawns, etc.)

The most efficient way to alter pH is by using sulfur (to lower) or lime (to raise). But many soils will have buffering capacities that will resist permanent changes to pH and so you may need to reapply amendments periodically to maintain a desired pH level. And it is very difficult to make substantial alterations - if you need to change pH by more than a full point or so (i.e., lowering it from 7.0 to 6.0), then you may want to consider selecting other plants that will tolerate the current pH or build raised beds that you can fill with imported soil that you can tailor specifically to the needs of the plants.

Changes to soil pH do not happen overnight. Most are based on chemical reactions in the soil that take time to accomplish. Typically the recommendation is to apply pH altering amendments a full season before planting or expecting desired results - like in fall for spring planting.

If you are new to gardening or unfamiliar with your soil conditions, a professional soil test is really one of the most valuable tools at your disposal and can make your gardening life so much easier. The willy-nilly application of amendments or fertilizers without knowing what or why you are doing it is not going to generate very satisfactory results. You can create far greater problems than you are attempting to correct. The misapplication of fertilizers is probably the most serious issue, especially if they are synthetically derived fertilizers - stuff like Scotts or MiracleGro products. They can burn tender plant roots and tissues, they can affect the ability of the plant to bloom or fruit properly, they destroy soil life and they are the primary source of urban pollution.

I used a pretty generic 10-10-10 last year. So the more expensive home kit I bought this year is trash? Lol! I will call the extension office. Apparently I need a marketing degree since I'm getting screwed outta my cash. This is hilarious.

I thought there was something suspicious about a ph of 8-9, I do have a rhododendrone (sp?) growing, but have been feeding it semi regularly with liquid Miracle Grow for rhododendrons. Should I use something else?

I have a lot of different plants that seem to be growing well. My hosts were kind of stunted, but I moved them and mixed in peat moss and they already look fuller. I know this may make you cringe, but I put them around the tree. I did not dig and only filled dirt to where the trunk met the grass, about 3 inches of dirt. Can you believe the hosts are growing in 3 inches?! Lol I'm quite surprised.

How can I upload pictures to a comment?

My apologies for participating in obnoxious behavior and thank you again.

Hostas, not hosts.

When people talk about changing the color of their hydrangea blooms, it is for future blooms. It is not possible to change the color of the flowers once they are blooming. I'm no hydrangea expert, but also I think some are genetically programmed to be blue, some pink, yada yada yada... If you're curious enough, a google search would probably yield the answers.

I don't like chemicals, nor do I like to spend money on anything for gardening unless it's plants. So I like like methods like coffee grounds for hydrangeas and banana peels for roses. It's usually about impossible to go too terribly wrong with natural methods, and if they didn't work for most situations, they wouldn't be perpetuated. You might find some that help you out.

Whatever the PH of your soil is (I've never tested soil,) adding compost to flower beds will be a great improvement, and is a never-ending process. If you haven't already started a compost pile, consider it. You'll be glad you did, and so will your plants.

Your hostas will adjust themselves and get their roots in/around the tree roots. Covering them with leaves this fall (when the leaves die back) can help prevent them from freezing and thawing so much that they heave. Once they get settled in, hostas are tough. If you have some mulch to put around them, that will help them stay moist. The peat might wash away when it rains without it.

I popped in here while waiting for something to cook...I would imagine that alamel has no idea of Dorie...AKA Rhizo's credentials. I am more than appalled by your insulting remarks and....mentioning an IQ score?? Really! REALLY? Obviously you have not availed yourself of the opportunities to learn.
To your cerdit you seem to have mellowed a bit....but you still owe Rhizo an apology.
She was speaking English.....you were too dumb to understand or to look it up.
Usually clay soils are full of nutrients....they need to be loosened with compost, vegetable matter and you will have the best soil ever. But you can't dig around tree roots.

And if you are so VERY intelligent, surely you can figure out how to upload pictures....most of those of us have.
Linda C

I thought we were past this already. I did appologize. I'm working off my mobile so picture posting doesn't work the same. I've also made the decision to not post when 'aunt flow' is in town and will continue with riening myself in under the 'if you don't have something nice to say...' approach. I'm sorry, I offended many people. If I could delete this convo I would.

I will just leave. Thank you ladies for your help. Again I'm sorry for actimg like the same trash that ticks me off. Later.

Lindac, it's ok. Nobody is upset with anybody anymore. We all have moments when we are not at our best or most pleasant selves. Mel is actually kind of funny and seems like a nice person who just had an accidental adverse reaction, kind of like a brief allergy. She did apologize and has been a pleasant participant in other discussions. I think we can all relate to her frustrations about product labeling being confusing or misleading.

Mel, I SO know what you mean about Aunt Flow. She can make any woman temporarily nuts! She possesses every woman at times and I don't know any woman without a story to tell about her devious, unexpected, and unpredictible powers.

A misunderstanding can be the start of a great friendship, so hopefully we have several of those brewing. I hope to hear more from you. Please don't feel bad if you get corrected or contradicted. It happens to everyone. It can feel insulting even when I know the person didn't mean it that way at all. And that's what these gardening discussions are good for - so folks can escape the burdens of misinformation and to learn which parts of gardening have right/wrong answers (like soil PH) and which parts are subjective to opinions and regional quirks (like how to stake tomatoes) and have no definitive right/wrong answers. Are those hostas about ready to bloom? I was curious when that would happen in 4a.

Can't we all just get along? Yes, Rodney, we can.

The hostas won't bloom till about the last few weeks in July. Here the Equinox is a pretty good indicator for the begining of summer. However, during the spring equinox, it still freezes overnight and some days. Our growing season starts the second wk of May. Thanks btw, I needed the encouragement today.

Omg what the hell is wrong with all of you. Haha just answer the question Or don’t comment. I would LOVE TO KNOW THE ANSWER but instead of that it’s just back and forth with a bunch of 1st graders.

So Drew, you just joined Houzz to make one comment on a nearly 10 y.o. thread and all you can manage to do is criticize the tone of previous comments?? Talk about grade school behavior!! LOL!!

btw, read the entire thread - the answer was quite fully provided. Ash trees do not "kill" soil. Whatever issues the OP may have had, it was not due to the ash.