I don't know what the laws are in Mass. But in many states you can buy concentrated Round up at the garden center and mix it in the strength recommended to kill poision ivy. They only need a license to apply it to someone else's land or to public land.
And there is urishol ( the stuff that gives you the itchies) present in even the dead sticks....and even in the smoke if you burn the stuff.
I would buy Roundup concentrate.....spray it myself.....and stay out of the area for a year!
Are you sure you recognize the weed and can kill it all?
Round up is quite safe....but are you sure the company uses Roundup, or another product with glyphosphate and a different surfactant?
Linda C

You better do some more research on RoundUp. It contains glyphosate, surfactant, and proprietary ingredients. Scientific research on glyphosate will have results differing from research on products which have glyphosate in combination with a surfactant. Within the past few years there have been quite a few published results of scientific studies which, at best, would make most people very leery of using it. Link is to a report of one such study.

You will find some folks on GW who do say they use RU or similar formulas. And at least one will tell you that RU is short-lived and comparatively harmless-- however, having found too many articles, reports, and abstracts to the contrary (not to mention a bunch of multi-syllabic but validly scientific studies], I don't agree that it is environmentally short-lived nor that it harmless, but you should make your own decision.

You don't say how big an area is actually overrun with poison ivy. You might wish to consider using a clove-oil product [such that carried by gardener's supply]. It should be noted that there are instances when *any* herbicide will require repeated uses [regardless of the manufacturer's claims], and in fact, the larger the plant the more likely something will have to re-applied at intervals to kill the newly emergent foliage - eventually the plant does die (although there are folks fighting bamboo who wouldn't agree to that statement). The only way to be positive the plant won't revive is to dig it up.

Here is a link that might be useful: Relyea -RU & frogs

hi LInda

thanks for the reply

i dont know that what brand they use. he just told me glysophate. and i saw a roundup brochure in his packet. and i dont know what surfactant they use... what exactly does the surfactant do? are there differences between them?

i am sure that i recognize the evil plant though yes :)

The are a number of different surfactants used, depending on manufacturer and formula (RU, as RU, is available to the public in several different formulas). Apparently, the surfactant/s combine with the glyphosate and become something more than either is separately, which is why you need to be careful as to exactly what the research team used for their study -- the results for a study on just plain glyphosate will differ considerably from a study which involves a glyphsate/surfactant combination. Interestingly, the more recent the publish-date is for a report on a glyphsate/surfactant combination, the more likely it is to cite long-term effects -- apparently many early studies were quite short-term in duration and therefore unknowing of long-term consequences, yet those short-term studies are cited by many proponents.

I think no one will argue that aerial spraying of pesticides in areas with gropund water is harmfull to the enviornment.
I also think no one will argue that dumping a bottle of Dawn dish soap into a pond will kill tadpoles and fish and frogs.
Surfactants are the "soap" that makes an herbicide stick to the plant's leaves rather than roll off. Glyphosphate deactivates when in contact with soil ( it is recommended that in the case of accidental over spray, the plants be dusted with dry soil)...but surfactants are slower to do so.....some slower than others.
I think that you will not be doing any serious harm to your enviornment by using a hand held pump sprayer of Roundup to kill your poision ivy.
Linda C

I know a cat who turns pens out of the woody trunks of poison ivy. HE says it takes two years to make sure that ALL the urisol is gone, and if anyone would know, it's him.

the landscaper will come by with a pressure tank, and blast everything within a 2 foot radius of a poison ivy leaf with roundup...and I'd want to see the masks and gloves his employees wear before I'd even CONSIDER it (around here, english is a THIRD language for most of the landscape laborers, and I have seen maybe two firms out of thirty treat them like human beings who will die of chemical exposure just as easily as a 'tax-paying american')

it will kill a whole bunch of things along with your poison ivy- and the ivy is up there with trumpet creeper for being a plant that can spring anew from even a small viable root left underground...so your chances of reinfestation are about 75%.

been there. finally went out in the fall, and sprayed all those twigs with the pretty red leaves an obnoxious shade of blue, waited until december, put on a tyvek bodysuit, pulled up ever blue-stemmed thing I saw (and anything that LOOKED like the ivy, just in case) loaded it all in a trash bag or three, stripped off the jumpsuit, stuffed IT in there, followed by the gloves, crammed it all into a BIG bag, and stuck a label on it for the trash men, warning them.

in the spring, I did use roundup on the 30 or so spots where it still came up- but I had gotten 85% of it, and this year, I only had to hit three places.

I can deal with a LITTLE toxicity- I can think of very few things that aren't toxic in the right concentrations...and my favorite option (flame-weeding) is counterindicated by the high chance of inhaling some of the aerosoled oil.

so pulling up what I could, and murdering the rest was the best compromise.

around here, there's something that's part folklore, part urban legend that poison ivy was mother nature's way of keeping the white man out of sacred lands.

sometimes, due to its comfort with 'disturbed' ground, I can believe it.

LOL, chinacat :) I don't think the Indians meant to include the 100-yr old smokehouse where I battled PI that was probably at least a half-century old. Did you know those vines can get to be more than 3 inches thick??!! I'm OG and a primary reason for buying the place was that it had lain fallow for more than 4 decades, increasing the likelihood the soil had never met a chemical herbicide. Obviously RU and ilk were not even considered. I wish I had thought of your trick with the paint. I hand-pruned, pulled down vines that had grown over, through, and into log&chink walls, and dug roots that had grown down, through, and around dry-laid stone foundations and steps. I'm here to say, it IS possible to get rid of the stuff by hand, without using poison or flame. Not easy, but possible.

BTW, Lindac - next time it rains, go out and look at a puddle. That is a common source of "ground water".

To put it in an ultra-simplified way: ANY water which falls on permeable land -no matter whether originating in cloud or from a hose or running off a roof- becomes a source of ground water as soon as it hits the ground. It soaks into the soil and eventually works its way to an underground aquifer, taking with it bits of dissolved chemicals/minerals/pesticides/etc. If the soil becomes saturated faster than the water can disperse downwards, then water collects into puddles and overflows into gutters, storm drains, ditches and so forth. Streams, rivers, ponds, lakes, and the ocean contain ground-water but are themselves considered to be 'bodies' of water.

Therefore, *any* herbicide which is used in *any* place that may become wet [with the wet washed into the soil], is likely to contaminate the ground water sooner or later. Sorry, no ifs ands or buts on that. The only way to prevent contamination of ground water is to keep all possible contaminants away from the water. And yes, I do realize the nearly all of the H2O on planet earth is already contaminated -- but at least I can look at myself and say that I haven't deliberately contributed to the contamination.

here in NC the poison ivy does indeed get 2-3" thick, and it is a scary sight for someone that is allergic to it to see that massive vine and it's top. my father has some 80 ' oak and maple trees that have the thick vines all the way up to the top and I don't think RU would take care of it.
however an axe kinda makes them wither up.
then we removed the base foliage and followed the little suckers and got it under control.
I have a pretty good patch of it right next to my garage in the "scrap iron" pile, and I don't think I will mess wiht it too much. when the vines get a bit unruly, I pull them up.
so far, though,in all my 37 years I hve not ever been infected by the stuff, I think I am not allergic to it. but be carefull if you are.
Pulling it up and getting all the roots is really the best way to remove it. wear gloves and long sleeve pants and throwaway shoe covers and have a ball pulling it out.
kinda like therapy for it getting you all puffy. DESTROY DESTROY DESTROY.
I do like the paint method, never thought of it before, but makes sense. hard to do anything in the summer heat with long sleeves and gloves. paint the stuff, and wait for cooler weather. "cool" idea.

http://www.lathe-meister.com/poisonivy.htm

:) this guy uses a similar method to harvest the vines for his lathe projects...

if would figure that such a nasty thing would yeild beauty to the daring fool ;)

but working with the vine in its dormant stage WAY cuts down on the contamination, but it's hard to find the smaller vines in the winter- which is where the paint idea came from.

my dad's one of those people who winds up in the hospital with blisters 2" across if he so much as looks at a vine, so eradication's been a crusade for me since I was a little kid (thankfully, I don't have his allergy gene)

cadillac 'robins egg blue' or a similar light, unnatural color works best- you want something that will really stand out against a winter landscape, and 'signal orange' tends to get mistaken for other things, for some reason.

Thx for the sebsite, chinacat. Fascinating that he thinks the poisonous oils dissipate over a summer. That sounds like the cut was made in early spring... maybe the sap drips out?

I know for sure the offending substances don't dissipate (either dripping out or by evaporating) in just a couple months if the vine is severed in late summer: I was in my late 30's and had never had a re-action to PI in spite of frequently pulling it up with bare hands, etc. While working and pulling on the smokehouse ivy in early October (weather cool enough I wore work gloves, warm enough I had pushed my sleeves up) I was scratched/stabbed with a sharp edge of the vine, on the inside of my wrist about an inch below the joint (right where the glove's cuff ended, across the vein that is on the inside of the arm). Frankly, I didn't think much of it, just washed the blood off when I took a break a while later. By that evening, I had the tell-tale itchy bumps. The next day (and for the following month) the virulent rash would pop up here and there all over my skin. The doctors decided that I actually had gotten the rash via that little cut! Since then, I can look at it, but I sure can't touch the stuff without having a nasty reaction. I don't think I'll take up poison ivy wood carving :)

thanks all for the replies
we have a lawn company coming to spray for us. they use a professional grade glysophate solution and have a power sprayer. i told them that i dont care what plants they kill in the woods where the ivy is, just not to kill anything in my gardens.

i know we could basically do this ourselves, but they are only charging $200 to do the whole of our woods which is a big job (the Poison Ivy Eradication company quoted us $680!!!)

so once this major spraying is done, we'll spray new growth ourselves and wait a year or so before ripping out whats there and dead (which will include this other nasty weed hedge-like thing that climbs its way up every neighboring tree/bush and strangles them, which i will be glad to be rid of as well)

i feel bad about using chemicals, but not bad enough not to do it i guess. we stopped using "cides" for lawn care - its all organic now which means we have a lawn half full of weeds and crab grass that i periodically pull out by hand. so i figure at least the glyphosate isnt as nasty.

maybe i am wrong though.

thanks for all the replies. i am almost tempted to just get a goat (my daughters would love it) but i think that would cost a lot more than $200 and might be more time commitment than i can handle right now :)

cheers

We appreciate the update --even if we think it's not a good choice.

BTW, link is to a column on organic herbicides, way down is mention of the clove oil made specifically for getting rid of poison ivy, with a source. (Mike used to be editor of Organic Gardening, among other things.)

Yeah, I'm hoping (for the sake of the frogs, the neighbors, future plants, and the water) that you might re-consider and find someone who will get rid of PI, without using a glysophate product.

Here is a link that might be useful: Herbicides that won't damage the environment

Meldy...

thanks. I did honestly think a lot about what you posted. I still am considering it, but for this first round of the war... there is just so much and i really want it gone, so we are going with the heavy guns and hten plan to use the rip it out method. i will look around about the clove oil and maybe add that to the maintenance schedule.

just this year i did stop using cheimcals on the lawn and went organic. its not everything but its a start... i also use a green energy electric company (that is to say, i pay more for my electric so that someone else - in georgia i think - can use green electricity :) )

anyway... keep preaching because it does make a difference, even if its not as much as you'd like straight away.

cheers
julie

I have been investigating Roundup for years, and have researched the available studies regarding its properties. The independent, worldwide consensus of toxicologists about Roundup is clear. Roundup and its surfactants are considered to be of low toxicity to mammals, birds, and humans, and Roundup is certainly less toxic than any blue paint that I'm aware of. Roundup is used by highly responsible environmental organizations such as the Nature Conservancy in some of the most sensitive wildlife habitat there is, even quite close to water. And while there are many ways to control weeds and no one "needs" to use Roundup in the garden, I would think poison ivy control methods that minimize risk of exposure to the very toxic urushiol oil would be a desirable thing.

The Relyea study showed what was already known for many years; if Roundup is applied at high concentrations directly over water, the surfactant will affect aquatic life, the same as any soap or detergent would. If used as the label directs, it will not cause harm to aquatic sites. There is even a form of Roundup without the surfactant that is formulated for use within aquatic sites.

And regarding the statement: "Therefore, *any* herbicide which is used in *any* place that may become wet [with the wet washed into the soil], is likely to contaminate the ground water sooner or later. Sorry, no ifs ands or buts on that".

This statement is patently false. Some substances can and do move into groundwater, some do not. Chemicals, both natural and synthetic, vary widely in their characteristics, with solubilities, persistence and adherence coefficients going from one extreme to the other. It completely depends on the chemical in question. For example, the herbicide atrazine is a well known ground water contaminant. It moves. However, long term studies have shown that Roundup use has not presented groundwater contamination issues. It binds to soil so tightly that it does not move downward appreciably in the soil profile. Your use of Roundup to target poison ivy in your garden will not adversely affect your frogs, future plants, or your water.

Lumping all pesticides together does not provide an accurate picture of the realities.

And while it's fine to try out some of the so called "alternative" herbicides mentioned in the article, it is important to note that they are all more acutely toxic than Roundup as they would are used in the garden. And while they will provide some level of control on easy to kill weeds, they will do little to control woody vines such as poison ivy. None are systemic, meaning they will not affect the roots of the plant.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Nature Conservancy

Be sure to let us know how it works out Julie. A few years ago I paid a painter $600 for a job that other painters said would cost $1600 and, to put it very mildly, I was disappointed in the paiters from H*ll... lol I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and wish you all the best...

Rita

Urushiol is the irritating oil found in poison ivy. It is found on the surface of the leaves, stems, and trunks and lasts for years. One article I read said that scientists found old dried out PI in a tomb with a mummy (they did not say Egyptian mummy, just "mummy") and they still got a rash from it. They did not say how old the tomb was but you can bet at least 1000 years.

Just an FYI. Wish I had the link to the article.

Also, I mixed my own RU Brush Killer concentrate to 150% of recommended strength, and sprayed all my poison ivy every weekend. It took about 3 years before we could not find any more. So you can find concentrate in some states.

JayK, very useful information. Thank you!

I know this is a little late, as you've already acted on this problem, but did you ever consider getting a goat? No, I'm serious! They'll eat everything - just tie him to a tree, let him clear out that area, then move him to a different tree. I haven't tried this personally, since we don't have poison ivy, but it seems to be working very well for our friends.

Oh no! The "round up" subject again. There are some very intelligent people visiting this forum. I'm impressed. Although , like Meldy, prefer organic gardening, I have had the hideous effects of poison ivy a few times. NOT FUN! I would also be VERY tempted to use round up for that but like I stated in the other thread about "round up," I don't know enough about it or the other alternatives. This certainly is an interesting debate. I think I would research all the alternatives and then make a responsible decision.
Tulips 91, she did mention a goat. I'm sure she meant it too. I couldn't help but laugh. Do animals not suffer the consequences that we do? I'm just curious. They certainly don't seem to.
Happy Gardening
Clemmybug

Apparently they like to eat it. I know, it is sort of funny, but hey, if it works... And considering the other stuff they eat...

JAYK said (without documentation): "However, long term studies have shown that Roundup use has not presented groundwater contamination issues. It binds to soil so tightly that it does not move downward appreciably in the soil profile. Your use of Roundup to target poison ivy in your garden will not adversely affect your frogs, future plants, or your water."
--------------------------------------------
Title: Reconnaissance Data for Glyphosate, Other Selected Herbicides, Their Degradation Products, and Antibiotics in 51 Streams in Nine Midwestern States, 2002

By Elisabeth A. Scribner, William A. Battaglin, Julie E. Dietze, and E.M. Thurman

Abstract: "Since 1989, the U.S. Geological Survey has conducted periodic reconnaissance studies of streams in the Midwestern United States to determine the geographic and seasonal distribution of herbicide compounds. These studies have documented that large amounts of acetochlor, alachlor, atrazine, cyanazine, metolachlor, and their degradation products are flushed into streams during post-application runoff. Additional studies show that peak herbicide concentrations tend to occur during the first runoff after herbicide application and that herbicide flushes can occur during runoff for several weeks to months following application.
Since the first stream study conducted in 1989, several significant changes in herbicide use have occurred. The most substantial change is the tripling in the use of glyphosate during the past 5 years. Over this same time period (1997Â2001), usage of acetochlor and atrazine increased slightly, whereas alachlor, cyanazine, and metolachlor usage decreased.

During 2002, 154 samples were collected from 51 streams in nine Midwestern States during three periods of runoff. This report provides a compilation of the analytical results of five laboratory methods. Results show that glyphosate was detected in 55 (36 percent) of the samples, and aminomethylphosphonic acid (a degradation product of glyphosate) was detected in 107 (69 percent) of the samples. Atrazine, the most frequently detected herbicide, was found in 93 percent of the samples, followed by metolachlor, found in 73 percent of the samples; metolachlor ethanesulfonic acid (ESA) and oxanilic acid (OXA) were the most frequently detected herbicide degradation products, both being found in more than 95 percent of the samples. The data presented here are valuable for comparison with results from the earlier reconnaissance studies."

Please note the following: "Results show that glyphosate was detected in 55 (36 percent) of the samples, and aminomethylphosphonic acid (a degradation product of glyphosate) was detected in 107 (69 percent) of the samples."