She wanted to give me some - I don't want it because I have a dog and I'm concerned about the environment and don't like to use wide spectrum pesticides in my own garden.

Then she tells me she has a problem with racoons and skunks and asks me confidentially, " if I mixed Buggetta Plus with tuna would it kill the skunks and racoons?" I told her I had no idea but she shouldn't do it because these animals usually have a long, slow and painful death once they ingest the poison. She should call the city or the SPCA and have the animals trapped and relocated if they were a problem.

I felt sick afterwards because I am an animal lover and think that people who don't enjoy nature, plants and animals should live in the city in a condo and buy plastic plants.

Then she told me she was going to go ahead and do it anyway!

Here is my dilemma - she is a customer so I have to be civil to her but on the other hand, I am disgusted by that talk and want to report her to the SPCA. I am also seriously considering cancelling her order (maybe I'm taking this too personally) and returning her money. What is your opinion?

There are several dangers here. The tuna would be attractive to cats, dogs, and all sorts of other animals. If she poisons a neighbours cat she could be liable for some big fines, and possibly a lawsuit - You might want to mention this to her. Also a sick raccoon is dangerous. They're big enough that you don't want to corner them. It would probably be assumed to be sick with rabies, and anyone comming into contact would have to have an unnecessary rabies shot.

The SPCA cannot do anything here - they might get involved, but can't do that untill the police have been informed (so they told me once). You can call the police's non emergency number (it's in the yellow pages) and ask what your options are.

BP

Sharon

I did call the SPCA - (by the way this lady lives in Toronto not in Montreal.) They can't do anything unless I have proof. Since I didn't record her conversation with me, there is no proof to be given.

I don't believe myself to be "holier than thou" but I can't justify that kind of selfish, cruel act and I steer clear of people with that type of attitude - customer or not.

You're right to be concerned, Mary. If you ever get another call like this one, I hope you can tape it and have them repeat their name and address so they can be stopped.

It's the same as people in California moving into mountain lion territory. Then after a few years a biker is killed by a rogue animal and everyone calls for the eradication of these majestic cats from the area. When will people learn. I can understand killing problem animals that pose a direct danger to humans and pets but definately not by poisoning which tends to affect non-target species as well as those being targeted. And I'm most certainly against eradicating a whole species simply because we have moved into their territory that they and their ancestors have occupied for thousands of years before humans did so. So many people out there don't think their actions through to the end. Kudos to you for letting this person know how you feel.

Just read the very one-sided thread about the poor woman who wanted to poison the raccoons. I'm going to weigh in here on the side of the Devil.
In the first place, it doesn't sound as if any of your respondents have really had any serious raccoon trouble. I have lived in my house only 5 years, and have had them rip my roof open and live inside twice, with the consequent repair and removal costs. They have ripped open my window screens trying to get in. A huge old male who had been kicked out of the nest decided he liked my front porch - not *under* the porch, but *on* it. It took days to get rid of him. Animal services wouldn't do anything, neither would any other agency, because he wasn't sick, they said. All that time we couldn't use the porch. I seldom get anything at all out of my vegetable garden. They eat it all. During the times that the kits are small, it's even a touchy business to walk down my street or laneway at night. And all of this is in the middle of downtown Toronto.
While I would never seriously consider poisoning an animal, I certainly fantasize about it!! They have driven me absolutely mad! As has the old fool down the street who feeds them. Food shortage is a natural birth control for wild animals. If they can't eat too well, they won't have as many babies. So all this old fool is doing is making sure that I have even more raccoons to trap and move down to the beach.
I can understand how upset you must have been to hear this woman's plans, but it may have been more constructive to try and give her some good advice about eliminating raccoon problems rather than going all self-righteous. When you've been driven as far around the bend as some of us have by the enormous raccoon population here and the clueless aw-aren't-they-cute types who make the problem worse for the rest of us, it's a major wonder that we haven't all gone out and bought guns!

I admire your candor (really!), but it's interesting that you mention in your reply, "I would never seriously consider poisoning an animal." Precisely! This woman was asking for advice with the intention of doing just that.

If you want to totally eliminate your raccoon problem, I suggest you either (a) get a couple of dogs or (b) move into the city like me. Yeah, I love the country, but I visit. (And we do garden here in the city.)

philosopher

You have GOT to be kidding me!?!
You are advocating FEEDING them so they'll stick around??
And with that artifical feeding the populations of the nusiance animal goes UP, and UP. Now what you have is an artifically high population (due in part to displacement of habitat, loss of predators, HUMANS feeding them, etc..) that is again artifically high and you have even more nusiance animals. That is until you move or STOP feeding them and have even more destruction in the garden because there are way too many in one area. Then the population crashes and they do starve to death.

Debbie

I guess my comments were based upon the fact that I read a lot more about poisoning/killing/trapping wild creatures from country dwellers than city dwellers. My father in law used to live-trap feral cats on his back 40 and then drown them. An urban friend of mine live traps them and then takes them to the shelter where they are euthanized. That was my distinction.

Again, my apologies.

philosopher

I understand perfectly well that skunks, raccoons, groundhogs, and squirrels can be a problem and they can create havoc by destroying property. I also understand the frustration that goes along with that. I grow tens of thousands of dollars of crops in an area populated with deer - this is not a hobby for me, it is my livelihood. I don't shoot the deer, drown them, trap them or try to relocate them - I live with it and solve the problem otherwise. In my opinion, there are certainly better ways to eliminate an animal problem than by indiscriminately poisoning them.

My husband has this acquaintance who was forever trapping and drowning squirrels. Why? Because they were eating his $.20 tulips. Give me a break. The same guy is a womanizer who doesn't like children or animals and is far more interested in talking about himself than anybody else. Do I talk to him? Absolutely not. Do I sell to him? No. In the meantime, the guy had a massive coronary - maybe he'll finally learn to be more humble.

I don't know if this person actually went through with her plan but at least I can have the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't help her in any way to carry it through. I don't want to know people like that, I don't want to speak with people like that, and I certainly don't want them as customers.

Anna

I appologise in advance for the length of my post. Animals can be "worked" with to everyone's satisfaction, I believe.

I have heard, "Fences Make Good Neighbors", and have noticed that has not been mentioned here. I realize money is the determining factor with a lot of fences. I also realize that with x number of acres to cover, fences are unrealistic. That said, fences seem like an appropriate option many times. If someone has small pets, protecting them is of vital importance--since small animals can be carried off by large birds (raptors). Fences are good for the person who puts them up, and the animal they mean to keep out. We live a short walk from a WalMart and then a large mall. However, once you drive down the road, it seems much farther away from all that. We have fox, deer, skunks, racoons, hawks, mice, opposum, squirrels, chipmunks, cotton tail rabbits, every kind of bird (which by the way can be very dangerous), cats loose, dogs that get loose. I haven't seen weasels, but hear they are around.

Our neighbors all garden and keep some animals such as chickens, pheasants, sheep, ducks, and so on. Each of these neighbors has very responsible fencing. The one with pheasants keeps them in a pen with holes in the fencing so small, a large JuneBug couldn.t get through. Then, he has an electric fence on the perimeter for the deer, and it has a bottom blocking and electrical fence to deter bunnies, skunks, etc. With all this, and his "have a heart" trap, he catches and drowns animals: racoons, skunks, rats/mice, rabbits. This makes me sad because with such great fencing, I cannot see how they would bother him. Recently, he put the trap just outside his fence. We all saw a racoon in the day (sometimes a symptom of rabies), and he drowned every non-pet he caught.

Another neighbor has guns and has fired them in his yard. This is a neighborhood, not the boondocks. He has 2 dogs sheep, ducks, chickens, and some great fences. His place is a farm to feed his family only--not commercial. He has no qualms about animal killing since he kills his own animals.

One more neighbor has 8 big dogs, a bunch of chickens, and a goose, and has exceptional fencing for all of them, and they are also very responsible with their animals. The woman of the house loves animals too.

In general, these people are the nicest neighbors I have ever lived amongst. They merely have different views of animals than I do. My love for animals is almost odd or different to them.

We do not have much fencing. The man we bough our house from only had a dog, so we have a good-sized dog kennel. That is our chicken house. Nothing has ever gotten in there except sparrows. We have had all the above mentioned wildlife in our yard--except rats and racoons. I wish we could afford to fence in the whole yard, but we cannot. We have the chickens penned with some garden fencing for them to be outside in the day. It is not easy to prevent them from occasionally getting out. One day, a neighbors dog (not the neighbors mentioned) got out and killed one of our chickens. It was devestating to our kids. Recently a fox came in the yard, and injured one and tried to catch 2 others, but I managed to save everyone.

In my former home, there were raccons all the time coming up on our porch at night. They would always leave when we either opened the door to go out, or arrived in the car to come home. I had catfood on my porch. A mom and 2 babies used to visit too, and they never bothered the cats--who tolerated them very well. I do not know if a dog would have been as good with them as the cats. I was concerned, but my cats shots were all up to dat, and rabies had not gotten to our area yet. The town actually had a vaccine-baiting program to see that it didn't. I know racoons are capable of killing small animals, I just haven't seen much of that. I have never seen a racoon in my yard here. There is water nearby, and I think they prefer te woods and such.

The skunks are the grub eaters. I am organic here, and the skunks have never eaten my garden. They get those nasty grubs out, and I'll take the help, frankly. In the grass, I just flip the divot they make back over the hole, and it looks fine. They have never bothered anything here.

The hawk is a concern because of our chickens. Even with the highest fence it can fly into the chicken yard if it chooses, but it has never gone after the chickens. The rooster sounds the alarm, and we go out, and it flies away. It prefers small birds--I have found the evidence.

The 'possom tried to go into the chicken coop for an egg we neglected to bring in, and the rooster (in the dark mind you) went after it, and successfully defended the egg. Haven't seen oppossum mush since.

I have never seen the weasels, but they can dessimate a flock of chickens.

Small birds can be very dangerous, as their feces can carry disease that can hurt people--starlings especially. We still love to watch the birds in our yard and virtually do not have starlings. I did have some pea damage in March from the small birds eating the vines for their greens. They did not kill the plants, they just flowered later once other thing sprouted that they could eat.

The cottontails would get in the garden and eat my beans. I put up a makeshift fence, and it only slowed them. So, I tried to be in my garden more (not a bad thing). I also planted more beans. One they get past their "first leaf" stage, the bunnies weren't as interested.

The deer were here the first year. I till my garden deeply, and a doe and her baby (by their tracks) visited the garden one night, and when they sank up to their ankles, they hurredly left. They ate a couple of seedlings. Once they saw that I was going to be around, they stopped coming. The man who lived here before was never home. ALSO...and ol' farmer told me that Irish Spring soap hung in a nylon stocking and tied to a fence was a great deer deterrent.

My point is that if you know the animals and understand their habits, things can be worked out. Skunks do not jump or climb, so a low fence would be sufficient if they were your trouble. Each animal has its ways, and usually these can be used as a method to repel them--without killing them.

Dogs keep a lot of animals away. My kids are good at that too. By playing ourside, thy are a presence, and the animals avoid the yard.

We have learned to live with the wildlife. We do feed the birds, and put those hard "composite" corn things up for the squirrels--it takes them 3 weeks to eat them, and they leave the bird seed for the birds. We also let the food run out so that the birds & squirrels have to forage for themselves meanwhile. It is better for them. We feed the birds consistently in the winter when the squirrels sleep.

It is not always harmonious (we were very mad with that fox that hurt our chicken), but we respect their existence. We use barriers, our presence, our rooster who warns us, and are careful how we place birdfood out. Relocation is an option, but we haven't had to relocate any of the critters. I feel fortunate to have these animals around. I think it means our area is fairly healthy--despite the mall nearby. It has been good for the kids to observe the animals; we have learned a lot form them.

I think we have gotten too far away from our roots. Back when people had to live with nature more, they had dogs who lived with the sheep and protected them. They had geese that patrolled the property, and frankly can be scarier than dogs. They used other animals to help them look-out and take care of business.

I appreciate Mary taking a stand. I respect that she has her beliefs, and is willing to "put her money where her mouth is", when so many people would cave in the face of loosing a sale. Thank you Mary for setting a good example.

Robin

So I can understand why people think racoons are a nuisance. You let them live around your perimeter, and they will thank you later by killing your beloved pet.

I am an 85 year old man, living alone on a hill where I get snowbound sometimes in winter (as now). For the past week I have been terrorized by what today was proved (by sight) to be about a thirty pound Racoon who daily has been tearing my upstairs bathroom into SHREDS! It is a decent effort to make it up and down my stairs not more than once or twice at the most, so when I come upon such a mess you may be sure it is more than just moderately troubling. Today for the first time I opened the bathroom door and was actually face to face with the culprit, who snarled at me while he or she rather unhurriedly ambled over to and out by the gnawed out hole in the wall he had managed seven or eight days priorly.

Now as soon as I can get out shopping, I'll find something metallic with which I can repair the hole and stop the critter. But in the meantime I will kill it any way I can, IF I just could (which I'm quite sure I can't, but I'm gonna try.) Don't yip at me to hire a professional animal removal team. I can't afford it. BeLIEVE me, I can't. I absolutely can't afford it.

Now as to the killing the racoon part, I have been tender toward animals all my life. That's why I have never hunted nor cared to. That and the fact that I am just constitutionally opposed to killing and value the lives of all creatures.

BUT. I know this. - This animal, if I were sufficiently in his way or he deemed me a threat to him, and he could, he would kill ME - and think nothing of it. All species respond to the rule of self preservation and I, a species, have as much call upon that irrepressible urge as any other. Thus, in my present circumstance, this critter HAS GOT TO GO (if there were a way, that is, but I don't think there is.)!

Thank you.

Brenda

Where we live is very attractvie to them - easy hunting grounds so to speak. We provide nice gardens, trash cans, compost piles, bird food and animals. Why stay in the wilds when they have us to provide. Over population can be a factor BUT they live easily within human areas - so to say that the only reason they are here is because we have moved into their territory is not accurate. There are many towns that have been in the same location many years and which are surrounded by forests and guess what they move into our area not vice versa.

Soooo they need to be controlled, over populations result in inbreeding, worse diseases, and very unhealthy living conditions. I sure would not feed them - then you are aiding in their destruction.

I have had many encounters with racoons and skunks, I like to turn the other way and leave them to do their stuff.

If they get ridiculous.. like move into my home, which they have (only the racoons).. But thats because my house was open to them, was being built at the time. I will trap them in a cage (you can purchase these cages) and move them to another natural piece of vacant land, where they can make a new home.. or I call the SPCA to come pick them up, if they are mother with babies. I realize ur not supposed to move them into a new territory, but its way nicer than killing them, doh.

I personally would refuse to do any further business with this woman.. I would cancel her order.. maybe that will make her realize how cruel and disgusting it is to kill.

I've been having raccoons aggressively breaking through a screened door and a kitchen screen this summer .. creating destructive (and quite expensive) havoc.

I don't want to increase the mess in my house by shooting these intruders while in my house. Furthermore, it's my considered guess that the aggressive raccoons that are busy destroying my property have been 'humanely' transported from another's property - at expense to the other harassed homeowners - and now at my expense. This makes no logical sense (except, perhaps to the "humanitarian" raking in the dough by transporting nuisance animals from one house to another .. thereby only increasing his business territory and subsequent profits!)

I don't believe that the cost of living in 'the country' needs to include invasion of one's property by nuisance animals - that's just romantic nonsense defying all good sense. It's the prerogative of wild animals to protect their homes - why must I lose my natural obligation to protect mine in order to appease misbehaving raccoons?!

I don't plan to put out poison where other animals might be harmed; I do plan to keep poisoning mice and I do plan to hire a hunter to kill the raccoons before they tear into my house one more time. And if a wolf or bear or human tried to enter my house aggressively .. I'd quickly get over my present silly scruples and simply shoot them outright.

Do not use poisons for any large vertebrates. Rats and mice only. There are no effective poisons for larger animals. Poison will only result in cruel suffering, and can reach a non-target animal, such as a pet.

The fact is that racoons are very evil creatures. They destroy just for the sake of destroying, and not for survival. I planted tomatotes. They dug it up and uprooted it. I replant everything. They dig it up again. I did this back and forth for 1 week. If they mess with me any further, it's going to be WAR.

There was no food when they dug up my tomatoe plants.
They did it for fun. It annoyed me. Then I replant it back.
They do the same 10 more times during the next 2 weeks.
I have no idea what their freakin problem is.

If people only want to kill racoons, and not other animals by mistake, lacing foods that only racoons will eat, but not cats, dogs, or birds. I think a banana will work.

I heard rat poison is not effective for racoons because they can throw it up.

As for the beasties in question, to imply that they dig up your tomatoes "just to piss you off" is ridiculous. YOU just don't get it. They don't give a crap about you because they're RACOONS and even if they did, you DO NOT have the right to poison them and sentence them to a horrific painful death over tomatoes. These are gardens people! It's one thing if it's your livelihood, but if some kid dug up your garden just piss you off, would you pursue the death penalty? Yes, I'm being somewhat facetious (big word for a donut head) and I am NOT trying to say we should offer racoons the same rights as people, but they are living creatures with the same capacity for feeling fear and pain and the same right to try to survive as you do (it isn't ok to poison mice either, by the way, especially if more humane traps are working). Racoons are crafty, maybe even mischievous, but not evil. Humans are actually one of the few species that "destroy just for the sake of destroying, and not for survival." Racoons are just as "innocent" as any other creature. I can respect someone like bugsey and wdstkdaisy who have been completely overrun with them and have tried several other more humane methods and now feel like killing them is the only option. The biggest problem we decent human beings have is not that people feel like their death is the only solution left, but how they choose to do it. Drowning is not right either but the slow horrific death offered by antifreeze is cruel and, to use your words, EVIL. I find it almost funny that people can refer to racoons as evil for digging up tomatoes and then in the next breath attempt to validate their choice to torture them to death.

It does not make us "tree huggers" because we are human beings with some sense of integrity and human decency. It also does not make people "donut heads" for not being aware of the laws in every state and not doing their research because I would be willing to bet that their are some more humane alternatives that some of you haven't researched. If releasing them isn't an option, then shooting them would be better, at least it's quick and painless if done right. If you can't do that, couldn't you call animal control to come pick them up or help you? Because I haven't done MY research, I don't know what the laws are in each state. Maybe in some places animal control can't help. Maybe in some places poison is actually the only option and your crops are your livelihood or the racoons are attacking your house and actually endangering your family like bugsey. In wdstkdaisy's case, something must be done as they are invading his/her home, but at least he/she sees that their is something morally repugnant about poisoning them. I can respect that. What I can't respect is how casually people discuss antifreeze like they're sharing a recipe or giving advice on garden fertilizers. You may feel like you have no other choice, like they've pushed you to it. But please don't get indignant when someone implies that you haven't chosen the moral highground, because anyone who can do such a thing so casually hasn't. No one is perfect, no one does the right thing all the time, but some of you could stand to change your perspective if you think your tomatoes are that important.

Tried everything, red pepper, other kinds of pepper, pepper spray, even tying the lid closed, they managed to get in and keep coming back.

So I poisoned them all, a whole family, one large one and 3 small ones, that's what you get for digging into someone else's trash.