It's probably not surprising the trees are in bad shape. The Garden Watchdog site has Willis listed as having 30 positive reviews and 19 negative in the past 12 months ... not a good track record. The Better Business Bureau gives them a Grade F. They also do business as Paradise Palm. There are several nurseries in that area of Georgia and many appear to have problems in regard to quality of plants, customer service and refunds and there's been some debate on other websites that all of them are linked in some way.

I thought about ordering from them when I got my fruit trees but after reading the Garden Watchdog I changed my mind ... quickly.

Your soil could be a problem with the trees. I don't have experience with rocky soil but with clay soils it's important to make a wider than usual hole to encourage lateral growth. Setting the root ball slightly above the soil line and mounding the fill dirt up can also help.

I didn't order as many trees as you did ... only 12 (some were fruiting vines) ... and I got them from 4 different nursuries based on research I did on the Garden Watchdog and BBB sites and I have to admit I'm really happy with the results so far.

Best of luck ... keep us posted on how it goes.

Brian

I'll keep you informed. Right now it seems too early to tell, except that they looked pretty rough. I knew they had some negative reviews and since my own negative experience in trying to complain to the BBB about a company, I don't pay attention to their opinion of companies. Willis was half price and had such a wide range of varieties that I could get everything at one place. I know the "you get what you pay for", etc. mantra. We'll see how this turns out.

It's rained heavily here, so perhaps before it dries back out I can get out there with a shovel and loosen the dirt in a ring around the trees. I don't think I'll have much luck getting mulch in the next week, unless I just get a small amount that doesn't require driving across the lawn to dump it.

Gamebird,

I hope that your trees do well, but I have several concerns about the trees themselves and how you planted them. Please don't be angry with me for speaking my mind because I am trying to prepare you for what to expect. I could keep my mouth shut and not say anything at all, but that would feel dishonest, so here goes.

BARE-ROOT TREES: Maybe it is just me, but I think bare-root trees are generally pretty low-quality. I wouldn't plant one in my yard if it was given to me free of charge. Their immature root systems, especially with spring plantings, just cannot get large enough to get them through the summer, especially in clay soil. And, in a really sandy soil (not in a good, moisture-retentive sandy loam), the soil often cannot hold enough moisture in the summer to get them through their first hot season. Spring-planted bare-root trees have a pretty high death rate unless they are grown in amazing soil, and even then they have to be monitored incredibly closely for transplant shock. If I wanted a tree and I could only find it bare-root, I'd plant it in a 7 to 10 gallon container and put it on a drip irrigation system and grow it out in a container for a year or two to give it a chance to develop a good root system before it goes into the ground. Lacking adequate containers, I would have built a long nursery bed about 1' above grade, filled it with native soil with only a little compost added (once in the ground, native soil is all they'll have anyway) for nourishment purposes, and grown them on in the temporary bed, well-mulched and well-watered for a year or two so they could develop a good root system before going into the ground.

LOW-QUALITY NURSERY STOCK: You mentioned that you realize you get what you pay for and that is true. Brian has already mentioned the website he uses to monitor online and mail order companies and all I can add is that I do not purchase from anyone that has poor reviews on that site. So, since you ordered from someone with poor reviews, you'll probably understand in the next few weeks to next year that they "earned" their reviews.

BACKFILLING TREE PLANTING HOLES: I have the worst soil in the world....hard, brick-red clay. When I plant trees, I plant exactly the same way Brian does....wide holes, and the wider the better--two to three times the width of the root ball of the container-grown tree. Because of the clay, we plant 1 to 2" ABOVE the soil grade to facilitate drainage for the young trees and immediately mulch to keep the higher roots from drying out. In addition, we keep grass and other plants 4' to 6' away (via heavy mulch on top of cardboard) the first 2 to 3 years to reduce root competition. We never add any amendment to the soil, just use the native soil and here is why. With clay soil, your hole becomes a "bowl" that holds water. If you add compost or bagged potting soil intended for well-drained containers, you have created a "swamp" within that "bowl" that will hold excess water and often cause your trees to suffer from root rot. If the trees survive, the roots are reluctant to leave the composty soil and grow out into the more difficult-to-penetrate native soil. So, in the long run, trees do worse in amended backfill, not better.

USE RECOMMENDED METHODS TO ACHIEVE SUCCESSFUL TREE PLANTING: All the practices we use---wide holes, planting slightly above grade in clay (at grade in our narrow band of sandy soil), backfilling with native soil only, and mulching to keep vegetation from competing with the tree roots are recommended by the experts at Oklahoma State University, so they are proven practices.

USING THE MOST CURRENT PLANTING RECOMMENDATIONS: I've been gardening for many years, but I always double-check my practices to make sure that I have changed with the times, so to speak. If a better method comes along, I want to use it, but I only use methods proven to be successful. For example, the way we did things in the 1970s is not necessarily the way we did things in the 1980s and then in the 1990s we were doing things differently from the 1980s, etc. etc. etc. As agricultural research teaches us more about what works well, and what doesn't, we become better gardeners as we go along.

ROCKY CLAY VS. PLAIN CLAY: I am not overly concerned with the rocky soil. I'd prefer a rocky-clayey soil to plain old clay if I had a choice. My brother successfully grows fruit trees in rocky soil. Healthy roots can break through rocks, and also can work their way between rocks and between clay and the adjacent rocks. Rocky-clayey soil seems to drain better than pure clay so that could be a plus.

WHAT TO EXPECT: Because you put compost in holes in clay, you likely will experience a lot of root issues. Root rot is one thing to watch for. The odds are you'll have more transplant shock, and perhaps plant death, because of the way you planted the trees. Trees that have root issues tend to have more disease and pest issues overall, including (especially with stone fruits) borers, so watch for early signs of them.

I'm not trying to be a pessimist and, in fact, it pains me to write this because I like to be optimistic. However, I also like to be truthful even if I offend the person to whom I am speaking the truth. So, if you are angry with what I've written, that's OK and you can resent me if you want, but I'll have the peace of mind of knowing I spoke the truth as I see it and did not "sell my soul to the devil" in order to say only "nice" things.

I've linked one of the Oklahoma State University Fact Sheets that details how to plant trees. I think you'll find it full of useful information.

When I first moved here, I spent a lot of time printing the OSU fact sheets that related to all things gardening, put them in plastic page protectors, and put them in binders. I read them carefully, noted where they differed from how I was used to doing things in Texas, and tried to keep an open mind about doing things here as recommended here. I cannot think of a single instance where the OSU fact sheets have let me down.

If I had a serious problem with one of the OSU fact sheet recommendations because it went against what I had always thought was the best way to do something, I did further research, generally at a Texas A&M, Cornell or Rutgers University websites and tried to resolve the doubts I had before I proceeded. I have not been disappointed.

I wish you well with your trees and hope they survive, grow and are fruitful. I do hope that the next time you plant, though, you'll consider the OSU recommendations and incorporate them into your planting strategy to optimize your chances for success.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: OSU Fact Sheet on Planting Trees and Shrubs

I probably should have mentioned planting bareroot in raised beds ... that's what I did with mine except for a couple that I put in pots because I was being extra cautious since I've never dealt with some of the varieties I ordered. I'm sorry I didn't think to mention that.

Brian

Brian,

I am glad you put them in raised beds. I was sort of hoping you had since you live in such a lovely, "wet" part of Oklahoma.

Dawn

Do you think it would do any harm to dig/pull them up and mix in half or more native soil and remove most of the compost? I doubt that by now, just three days into things, that they'd have anything down there that I'd be disturbing.

It is hard to guess if it would help or hurt. I do agree that the roots probably haven't done anything yet. I wonder what Brian thinks? I also wonder what Randy would say? Randy is "my" tree expert that I rely upon for advice. Let me see if I can post something that will get Randy's attention.

Dawn

Personally, I'd do it ... and try and raise the rootball up when replanting them.

I don't want to sound like a wuss, but it's pretty cold out there right now (47, no sun, with a 15 mph wind). I planted, correctly (or at least more correctly... except the mulch), a dawn redwood in our front circle drive, about 10' from the front drainage ditch. It's in great shape, except it was a little pot-bound. I loosened/tore the roots and spread them out some. I got it at Sam's Club, $12.88 for a 5' 5" tree.

On the way to Sam's, I drove by the Tulsa Greenwaste site and checked their hours, my understanding of their location and that they'd load for me. I didn't get a chance to get out and look at their oldest stuff, but I was told I could request the oldest stuff and get it.

The ground is really muddy right now and I don't have boots. Hopefully, tomorrow will be better. I got a new shovel today, having broken what was essentially a big garden spade digging up peonies. It was a Craftsman and so I took it by Sears for a replacement and all they had was full size digging shovels, so I got one of those. I already have a full size shovel, and now I have two. Maybe this new ones will stand up better to digging in the back yard. Digging in the front yard, where I've dug and rototilled and augmented the soil was easy, except for the sinking-into-the-soft, non-compacted-soil part. Hopefully the redwood will be happy there. A redwood was *not* my choice of tree. I've heard it's only marginally adapted to here and needs a lot of moisture. But my husband was dead-set on it and maybe putting it next to the drainage ditch will help it out.

Depending on what Randy says, I'll replant at least some of the fruit trees tomorrow.

Game bird,

Look at Randy's reply under the thread "TREES: What Would Randy Do?"

For what it is worth, I agree with Randy and Brian. I wanted their replies because I was worried that if I said you ought to dig up and replant them, then it would seem as it I was saying it had to be "my way or the highway" and I didn't want to come across that way. So, I feel reassured by the answers they gave. I'd already promised myself that if they said they'd leave the trees alone and take their chances, I'd keep my mouth shut because maybe I was being overly cautious.

I'm hoping this all works out well. It was a lot of work to plant them, I know, and will be a lot of work to replant, but hopefully the investment in time will save the investment in dollars spent on the trees.

Dawn

I certainly have more time than money at the moment. :)

I'm not sure I'm doing any good with replanting the trees. I replanted two. The holes they're in now (or rather, were in originally) were 12" across. What does "2-3 times the diameter of the root ball" mean on a bare root tree? The root ball is only, what?, three or four inches across? How big a hole should I be digging?

So instead of digging a bigger hole, I put the shovel into the ground about 3-4 inches out from the edge of the existing hole and drove down as far as it would go, which was about 3-4 inches, sometimes 5-6. And loosened. Then I dug out the tree and compost and put in the original soil until it looked like the spot I'd previously buried the tree to would be 3-4 inches above grade when I was done. Then I added the rest of the original soil and stepped on it. That drove it down to grade, leaving the tree well above grade, but without dirt around the previously buried part. I suppose I could go dig up more dirt somewhere else to put around it, but then how do I manage to have that little moat I'm supposed to have to collect water?

I took the evacuated compost and made the ring with it. And dug up dirt from nearby to do the same. On the second tree, I realized that by putting the original soil back in the hole, I'm also putting the original weeds/grasses that were growing on it, back in the hole to compete with the tree. By digging up nearby soil to make the ring, I'm also putting surface plants into the ring where they'll have easy access to water and compost.

:(

It didn't help matters that I kept ending up with high heels of clay from the dirt sticking to my shoes in preference to sticking to anything else. I'd step next to the tree to tamp down the dirt and the top inch would come away on my shoe! Very irritating.

This doesn't seem to be working. I guess I need a lot more dirt to do this right. It is as if I shouldn't have dug holes at all, but just mounded dirt around the tree on top of the existing dirt. The root balls are, in general, small enough that I could do that, but it seems so preposterous. Surely they wouldn't get enough water if I did that.

I can't figure out how to elevate them above grade without needing a lot more dirt. What am I doing wrong?

You definitely need more dirt. If you're close to a Lowe's or something of that nature you could get ordinary topsoil in 40 lb bags that's fairly inexpensive (I think Green Country out of Miami, OK would be OK)... it was about $1.30 or so per bag the last time I looked. Ideally I would put something around them to frame them like a raised bed ... rocks, landscape timber, cement blocks or bricks, etc.

What concerns me is that you said the "root ball" is only 3 or 4 inches across. How tall are these trees? If they're any larger than 6 inches there's a problem. The bareroot I receive had roots that were fairly large ... significantly larger than what you've mentioned. The JuJube were probably the smallest ... the tree/shrubs were about 2 to 3 feet tall and the roots were at least a foot across. Everything else had roots that were a couple feet or more.

To be honest, I don't see these surviving with such an undeveloped/under developed root system, which is why I mentioned building something around them. Better yet, I'd suggest at this point you plant them in containers until they have a chance to develop some real roots. I wouldn't even attempt to plant them in the ground until next year at the earliest. Also, if you put them in containers you will have much better luck in maintaining the proper moisture.

They should never have shipped/sold trees with such small root systems unless these trees are extremely small/young.

Brian

So compost is bad, but store-bought topsoil is good? I've got a pile of sandy loam topsoil. I have clay topsoil and down the road is lots of tilled clay topsoil. They're all water-logged.

Thanks for the advice. I'll muddle on.

There's debate on the subject of compost when planting trees. Some say don't, some say it's fine to do so. I really don't have an opinion on the matter either way as I've done it both ways without any problems. It may increase the chances of root rot but other than that I can't think of anything else but I've also never researched the subject.

If you've got sandy loam topsoil available, that should work fine.

Brian

Compost is only bad in the sense that the holes you dug create a bowl, the compost sits in that bowl and holds excess water, and the underdeveloped roots stay waterlogged and die.

Normally, compost is good, but you mix it together with the existing native soil to improve drainage and, at the same time, make the soil hold moisture longer. (Seems contradictory, but it isn't.)

The key is that, when improving soil, you add the compost in equal amounts to the entire area.....like an entire shrub bed or veggie bed or whatever, and not just add it to selected holes in which trees will be planted.

Most bagged top soil is not the highest quality stuff around and is generally pretty low in organic matter and pretty high in clay, so in that sense it is better for your young trees than the pure compost because it more closely resembles the clay you already have.

You probably could wait a couple of days for the mud and muck to dry out. If you work with clay when it is wet, it tends to dry into really hard clods and that's not a good thing. With rain coming, though, your soil may get worse before it gets better.

If I were faced with your dilemma, I'd probably dig up all the trees, pour out several bags of top soil in a pile on top of the ground that is several inches above the grade, and heel in the trees temporarily while I prepared the holes and prepared to backfill them with native soil or a mix that is mostly native soil and a small amount of bagged topsoil as Brian suggested.

I'd go even further and not plant them in the ground this year. I'd put them in containers as I mentioned earlier and grow them on for a year or two to develop roots, or put them temporarily in an above-grade raised nursery bed for the same purpose. After a year or two of nurturing them, they should have developed enough roots to be able to survive in the ground, even in yucky clay soil. Even if you only hold them in pots or a nursery bed until next fall, they'd be pampered during the heat and still make some root growth and, when you put them in the ground next fall during their dormant period, they'd be less likely to have transplant shock. They'd have all the rest of fall and winter to adjust, begin growing roots and get established before next summer's heat hits. Just something to think about.

Brian has mentioned that bare-root trees from this particular firm have a reputation of not breaking dormancy and that concerns me. That reputation, along with your description of how small the root systems seem to be, makes me think they essentially sent you whips and not true bare-rooted trees.

I'm wondering too about their root stock. Are they grafted onto a good root stock? Are they own-root trees I am wondering what in the world you even have at this point.

Dawn

I have ordered many bare root trees from the National Arbor Day Foundation (www.arborday.org) over the years and had good success with them; however, I order them in the fall and 'heel' them in for the winter as they suggest. They even say leave them heeled for up to two years, then transplant to permanent location. Their trees are very small - usually around 18", but some are taller, and look just like the ones you described, gamebird. I now have several very nice trees from these dead-stick beginnings! I hope you have a good experience, as well! They also have planting and care tips, but I think what others have told you here is probably more in-depth.

Gamebird,

You commented that you ordered the smallest size category the offered, and I mentioned that maybe they had sent you whips and not true bare-rooted trees. However, your description of the root system makes me wonder if they didn't even send you whips and maybe sent you liners.

There is nothing wrong with liners as long as you know that's what you're getting and you know what to do with them. However, I would find it troubling if they are sending out either liners or whips and misrepresenting them as plantable trees.

I linked a description below that shows the difference between liners, whips and trees. Look at the illustration and description, please, if you get a chance, because I am concerned you may have liners.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Stages of Commercial Tree Production/Growth

Based on the link provided, I'd say these are whips. They are 3-5' tall from the ground/grade, with root systems that are 6-12" long. Some have 4 roots, some have 20. Seems to vary with type of tree. The trunk caliper is around a half inch, I'd say. Most (maybe all, I haven't checked) are clearly grafted. The Willis website gives information on root stocks, not that I know enough for it to be meaningful to me.

I don't have the resources or interest in potting up the trees for a year. If I wanted to wait a year to get fruit trees, then I would have. I gather several here think I threw away my money on something worth less than nothing. Maybe that's true. I've tried a lot of bargain solutions over the years that have turned out to truly be bargains. Perhaps this is not one of them.

Got to go.

Well, you never know until you try, as they say. I don't think it's so much a case of thinking you threw your money away, it's just that gardening in OK is a pretty tough racket under ideal conditions and the climate here makes "ideal" a rare bird indeed. We'd just hate to see you get discouraged due to a business that doesn't play by the rules.

Brian

I've replanted the two plums and four cherries now. While digging up the cherries I damaged a root on one and a couple roots on the other. :(

So 6 down, 16 to go.

I have to log a great big NEGATIVE for my recent experience with Willis:

Summary: Disappointing products, poor customer service, no willingness to address the problem, and rude people

-I ordered a 3 Yr old Navajo Blackberry plant, a 3 Yr old Brazos Blackberry and 25 Sequioa Strawberry plants in November. The order came within a few weeks but the blackberries were far smaller than I expected (8 inches) with virtually no root mass. The strawberries were totally dried out. I called Willis at the time and asked about the dried out strawberry plants and was assured "to ahead and plant them, there shouldnt be a problem" and told that I should expect three foot of growth on the blackberry bushes. I diligently planted everything according to instructions including the expensive Mycorrhizal Fungi that Willis recommended buying.

Now that spring has arrived in Washington DC and everything else in my yard is bursting into bloom, I have two dead sticks in the ground with no buds and not surprisingly, not a single one of the strawberries is alive.

I got on the phone to Willis requesting that they send me some replacements. I got the run around needing to talk to three different increasingly hostile people to explain and re-explain the situation. I was told that they could not send me replacements for the strawberries because they now have a "no guarantee" policy on strawberries even if they were shipped to me dead, and that they were not able to ship replacements to the blackberries until next season. I am pretty disappointed to miss an entire growing season and not to be able to grow anything this summer so requested that they just refund my purchase. The woman I was dealing with at that point got very snippy with me and told me that they were not going to do that, that I would just have to wait, and then proceeded to HANG UP THE PHONE ON ME!

Some other thoughts as you weigh your purchase decision:

-The Better Business Bureau gives them an "F" rating (the lowest possible rating)

http://www.bbb.org/columbus-georgia/business-reviews/nurseries-plants-trees-etc/paradise-palm-company-in-moultrie-ga-91800692

Ironically the dreaded "Ty Ty Nurseries" has a better BBB rating  a "C"
http://www.bbb.org/columbus-georgia/business-reviews/seeds-and-bulbs-retail/the-nursery-in-ty-ty-ga-15001569

-The interlocking names of Paradise Palm versus Willis suggests that they are trying to hide something

-They have now taken down their web site

Stay away from these folks

Jimbowhit,

Thank you for sharing your experience with those of us here at the Oklahoma Forum. It is always helpful to hear of other gardener's experiences with mail order/online firms. I am sorry your experience was so bad, and that you have wasted your time and money on this company's products.

When you said their reputation was worst than Ty Ty's, my intial reaction was that I didn't think such a thing was possible. How very interesting that the website has been shut down. It makes me wonder if they have legal action pending against them, perhaps via a private lawsuit or maybe the attorney general's office in one state or another.

Thanks for the warning. I am sure many people here will heed it.

I wish you better success with the plants you choose to replace your dead Willis plants, and hope you have a wonderful gardening season this year.

Dawn

Maybe something will live that I got from them. :(

As hard as you've been working with those trees, I certainly hope so. : ) If the trees don't make it, it won't be because you haven't tried.

Governmental agents have leaked a report of a widespread, ongoing investigation of Paradise Palm Co. Nursery and Willis Orchard Nursery, and that the owner of Willis Orchards has panicked to rush to sell out his company and to flee the United States. This result of this online information has been published at (www.buybusiness.com/Businesses/13803/Multi-Million-Dollar-Mail-Order-Nursery-for-Sale-Top-Nationally-Recognized-Company)

Authorities claim that Paradise Palm Co. was formally a website operated under the Internet address, www.paradisepalmco.com owned by Jason Willis, who also owns www.willisorchards.com, and the closed down company, Paradise Palm Co. has been forced off the INTERNET due to illegal activities. Rumors fly, that the U.S.D.A, recently fined Willis Orchard Co. for illegally shipping infected citrus into Texas and other States. Jason Willis was forced to destroy all his on site diseased citrus trees and then to "Cease and Desist" the selling of citrus on the www.willisorchards.com website.

A garden watchdog website, is reporting that Willis Orchard Nursery has compiled more negative complaints that positives, and the B.B.B. after three years is still showing an 'F' rating for www.willisorchards.com, a rating that is so bad. that you cannot even bring up the name Willis Orchards unless you type in the now defunct company, Paradise Palm Co in Moultrie, Georgia.

It is unclear. whether or not, the greatly indebted and empty pockets of former suppliers of Willis Orchards will seek a Court intervention to block the sale of Willis Orchards, before the owner, Jason Willis, has a chance to flee the United States and pursue his other interests in a foreign county.

Website investigators have advised present and past customers of Willis Orchards and Paradise Palm Co. to complain to the following agencies, if they have any complaints against the Willis Orchards complex, or if the customers are owed free replacements resulting from dead or infected plants.

Tommy Irvin Georgia State Agriculture Commissioner:
Email- tommy.irvin@agr.georgia.gov
Phone- 1-800-282-5852

Georgia Governor's Office of Consumer Affairs:
Office of the Attorney General of Georgia
Thurbert E. Baker, Attorney General
40 Capitol Square, SW
Atlanta, GA 30334
Call 404-651-8600 or Toll Free 1-800-869-1123
Website: http://consumer.georgia.gov/00/channel_title/0,2094,5426814_39102589,00.html

Georgia BBB:
500 12th Street
Columbus GA 31901
Phone- (706)324-0712
Email- info@columbus-ga.bbb.org
Website- http://columbusga.bbb.org

For protection you can file charge backs with your credit card company also.

I think most of us would know better than to order from Willis in the first place, given their negative ratings on Garden Watchdog. But, it's kind of weird how all these new people are signing up just to post these messages here on Gardenweb in multiple forums. Something seems a little fishy. I think there may be more to the story than meets the eye, and there may be more to the motives of these new forum participants than they claim.

Brandon,
I hesitate to judge anyone or their motives. But agree the fact the latest posts are by posters who signed up the day of the post and I've seen no other posts by them makes a person wonder. Although I've ordered several trees online through the years and all have been bare root. I never ordered from Willis so have no opinion pro or con on them. I've seen internet rumors spread like wild fire before. And always hard to judge what is true and what isn't. Jay

Jason, the owner of Willis Orchards, addressed this apparently unethical new contributor in a thread in the Fruit and Orchards Forum. Here's a link.

I bought a bare root Ruby Falls Weeping Redbud from Willis Orchards, it arrived late autumn 2017.

I had not heard anything good or bad about that company.

I didn't complain, but sent them an email with a photo of it before planting it, asking if this is what the tree was supposed to look like and that two limbs had been broken from packing.

I was surprised that they immediately answered. The girl who answered my email said the owner said it should be just fine, but they will send me another smaller one in the spring. (The first one was large compared to what the other garden sites were offering. The second replacement was smaller like other garden sites described.)

I thought it was amazing service and the girl who wrote the email was so accommodating and friendly. So I'm really very surprised to find out about al their bad reputation.

The way I came across this thread about Willis Orchards was trying to learn about bare root trees and how long it takes to break dormancy. Some garden websites said if a bare root tree is planted in April it can sometimes not break dormancy until late June or early July.

So in spite of these two Ruby Falls Weeping Redbud trees looking dead, I'm going to give them time.

And the company was so friendly and accommodating, that I honestly just don't have the heart to demand a third replacement.

The bottom line is:

My personal experience buying from Willis Orchards was that I was impressed with how considerate & accommodating they were to me in 2017- 2018.

And...

Bare root trees can take a long time to break dormancy according to some garden forums I read...and patience is required.

Sue

Pittsburgh, PA zone 6b

Willis Orchard purchase of "Ruby Falls Weeping Redbud" bare root stock finally broke dormancy. These photos from May 20.

I'm giving the first tree they sent a chance as I've heard about some fruit trees breaking dormancy as late as July!

Training a limb to be a taller lead.