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pallida_gw

Wild Wildflowers

Pallida
12 years ago

I love Oklahoma wildflowers. These are my two favorites. Please share pix of your favorites.

Jeanie

Comments (97)

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi, Pallida,

    I also got so caught up in the topic that I'd go on and on, and only once in a while feel guilty that I was wandering away from the wildflower photos.
    I'm 69 and have only lived in OK for 6 years. I've been gardening for about 45 years, I guess. Here and (obviously) in CA from one end of the state to the other and from the desert to literally the oceanfront to the mountains; in central (high desert) WA, in Boulder, CO, and in Oregon.
    I think (though I'm not certain) that what I want to do here is incorporate xeric wildflowers that will make it in the tougher areas of my garden and work them around the existing plants that are established. I'm not stressing out about it, Cactus. I just hate to waste time and money in doing something that won't work. I'm getting too old for that kind of thing. You know? I'm also taking care of one of my great-grandbabies part time, so I should be old enough to have at least learned a few things along the way. I can always hope so, anyway.

    Of course I've heard of Gertrude Jekyll, and I love her white garden. I had one of her books that I donated to the library when I left CA because I thought I wouldn't need my fancy landscape library any more. I took 5 big cases of garden books to my friendly gardening librarian. Now I'm busy buying new ones on gardening in Oklahoma, wildflowers and so on.

    I did find a plant today that I wanted to ask you guys about. When I went to the High Country Gardens site, I noticed that they list nierembergia gracilis as a drought tolerant perennial. I've never seen this specific one, although I've grown nierembergia before and just love it. It's such a happy little thing. The plain purple (called purple robe) and white ones we've grown have only made it for two years at best, but it's possible they may have been over-watered. I definitely want to try this one. Has anyone tried growing it? I've asked for nierembergia at places like Lowe's and they just look blank. They have no clue what it is. Maybe someone like TLC would have it?

    Now I'll have to look around and see if I can find any of my wildflower photos.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactusgarden and Pat,
    L. O. L Thanks for your witty and friendly "come-backs". As a gardening enthusiast, my problem is, I want EVERYTHING! I love the clipped hedges and beautiful structured English gardens with fountains and pathways leading into "garden rooms"on enormous estates, but have to face the reality that this isn't England with loamy soil and constant rain, and I certainly couldn't afford such grandeur. I love the cottage gardens clustered around the little homes of the common-wealth, more in my price range, but many of those plants wouldn't survive here. I love the northern gardens with plants that won't melt in the heat. I love the southern gardens where they can grow Sago palms and houseplants outside. I love the coastal gardens with sandfences and tough salt-tolerant plants and yes, I love the plains and desert plants that survive the roughest conditions of all, heat, drought, wind and concrete soil.
    Now that I am getting older and less supple and heat-tolerant myself, I am leaning more and more toward "care-free gardening". I just don't have the strength or patience to fight the elements to keep the more tender trees, shrubs and perennials alive! I've enjoyed reading about the plant material you ladies have either grown or were going to test-grow.
    TLC is a good source for a wide variety of plants, and believe me, they are much more knowledgeable than the personnel at Lowe's or Home Depot!
    Oh, how I wish I still had one of my Grandmother Becky's sun bonnets! She made them herself, probably out of old flour sacks. She loved gardening and could grow anything.
    I, too, got rid of a lot of gardening books, as I have down-sized to a small cabin and just don't have a lot of room.
    One of the things that I simply can't grow out here ( although I've stubbornly tried) is David Austin roses. I really like the Gertrude Jekyll rose among them, but this soil and the fact that I have virtually NO shade and almost constant wind just will NOT allow me that luxury.
    Cactusgarden, send pix of your Blue Leymus Grass.
    Pat, send pix of your wildflowers (they can be west coast flowers).

    Jeanie

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jeanie,

    I may be wrong, but I've always viewed a cottage garden as being more of a style than it is particular plants. I'll bet we could design one for you that would give the effect you want and still use things that will work here, and some wild ones as well. Wouldn't it be fun to map it out, even if we just do it with ideas?

    You can't get the David Austin roses to grow here??? That's not good news. I was thinking of maybe getting another Graham Thomas. Have you ever tried that one? I don't know about wind, but I do know that it will take cold and heat. It's really vigorous.

    Thanks for saying I could post images from out of the area, since I haven't been here long enough to get any good ones of the native wildflowers. I do love the old orange lilies that grow in the ditches, and although they are a tree instead of a flower, I also love all the mimosa when it's in bloom.

    One of my all-time favorite places to be for flowers and gardening is San Diego. It's just amazing. All of the bougainvillea; poinsettias that are as tall as the eaves on a house, bird of paradise everywhere, and the incredible drape of pink iceplant down the cliffs, under the palm trees. Orange and lemon trees growing in yards in town, and the brugmansia is just incredible. There's no end to what I could list for San Diego. Ah, well. It costs the earth to live there, and the traffic is insane.

    Here's one I shot a very long time ago. The lupine wasn't in bloom yet, but it would be mixed in with the poppies before long. Earlier in the year, the whole area out in the flats behind the trees used to be a solid carpet of wild buttercups. Millions of buttercups. It never lasted very long, but it was something to see.

    You probably recognize them, but those are CA live oaks in the background. I'll see if I can find any other photos. I think I may have some interesting ones, including avalanche lilies on Mt Rainier.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good Morning, Pat,
    As far as I know, cottage gardens ARE a style. I just meant that the pix I have seen of the English-type cottage gardens would have plants that enjoyed all that great soil and moisture. My main bed is loaded with heat and drought tolerant plants, such as Perovskia, Echinaceas, Liatris, Hemerocallis (which the deer destroyed this year), Achillea, Coreopsis, Gaillardia, Callirhoe (which the deer and rabbits keep nibbled down), etc.

    The DA roses don't like my soil, even though I amend it. The one that did the best was "Pat Austin".

    Love the pic of The field of Poppies, etc. I've always been a little jealous of those climates that allow the cultivation of "tender perennials". Here, they are annuals, of course. Hope you can find more pix.

    Jeanie

  • Okiedawn OK Zone 7
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pat,

    I have grown David Austin roses here and, of the ones I've grown, Graham Thomas performed the best. Most years it was just lovely. Last year I took out the roses after 7 or 8 years of growing them. They always had blackspot in humid springs and summers and were too high maintenance for me. They often struggled in heat once the temps were staying above 100 for days on end and required very frequent watering. I had them in highly, highly amended clay soil in a bed raised 12" above grade. In our climate, you have to pick your battles, and growing roses and keeping them happy was a battle I was tired of fighting.

    Dawn

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, I can see why it would be more that a small challenge to maintain your garden if the rabbits and deer keep getting in and munching it. I haven't seen any serious rabbit damage so far, and a deer only got in once in 6 years. I've even been pretty lucky with raccoons and possum. (Knock on wood!)

    Dawn, my Peace rose is still hanging in there after 6 years, but the Double Delight is not a happy camper. I think there's a gopher under it again, but it has never done well. On the other hand, the Pinata is really satisfactory and the little wild polyantha I transplanted is going crazy. The canes have grown 6' to 8' long since I planted them this spring, and they're going everywhere. It may prove to be a bit more vigorous than I had planned. For now I'm going to concentrate on some of the exciting new perennials and leave high maintenance things like roses out of my buying scheme.

    I was really glad to hear that the trumpet vine doesn't tend to sprout from seed. I had visions of it also turning up everywhere.

    I was very surprised to hear that the rose campion is not invasive here. Well, at least in your garden it has not been. I'd still be afraid to get it started. And the sweet pea I was referring to is a pink wildflower perennial form, not the pretty hybrids. The vines of the wild one are heavy and tough and will live through just about any conditions, coming back more than vigorously year after year. They can quite literally bury a perennial garden under mounds of vine. Once they've died back in the heat, there are all those vines to contend with, because it's not possible to stop them all once they've started, and the following spring they'll be back as bad as ever. Or worse. I think you could call them the CA version of OK wild honeysuckle, and then some, because of the seed pods.

    I'll see if I can get some of my wildflower photos to work properly. I have them on a disk and it's been acting up.

    One of the most amazing things I think I've ever seen is what happens in the desert after a good spring rain. I've never seen the TX wildflowers in bloom, only photos, but I've certainly seen sections of the Mojave desert. It's incredible. Great carpets of flowers of every description, including the cactus. Some are tiny things, less than an inch high, with a blossom smaller than a pencil eraser, but some of the cactus will put out a big showy bloom that's 3" across or more and often pretty exotic.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My Pat Austin rose, at it's peak.
    Dawn, you are more patient than I am. I have pulled all my DA roses and hybrid teas except for one lone "Love", and it is borderline. My best rose is a shrub rose called "Grandma's Yellow Rose", tested and approved in a Texas Grandmother's flower bed. It blooms almost constantly and black spot is not a problem.

    Jeanie

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, Jeanie, that's lovely! You mentioned TX, and I wonder if anyone has been to or had dealings with the huge rose place that's in New Braunfels. At least I think that's where it is. Don't they have the big historic rose garden there?

    Here's the photo of the Avalanche lilies on the slope of Mt Rainer that I said I'd try to find. The lighting isn't as good as it might have been because a storm was coming in. It's also at a high elevation, which plays tricks with cameras and film. I had to try to lighten it, so it looks a bit washed out.
    We just happened to get lucky and see the display. From what I understand, they don't do it every year. Only when the conditions are right. It's an extremely fragile ecology, and walking in there is strictly prohibited. I was standing on a nature path when this was taken.

    This next one is probably unfair, considering how dry everything is right now but I wanted to share it anyway. I don't know if you can even see any of the tiny flowers. They are mostly yellow or white. This one was taken in Muir Woods, just north of San Francisco, in the same park as the giant redwoods.
    The shot was taken in mid-summer, and everything you see is completely natural.

    If it makes anyone feel better, the summers there can be cold and foggy, so growing a veggie garden of any kind is all but impossible, even if there was any room for it, which there usually isn't. They'd consider one tomato plant in a pot in a sunny spot on a deck to be 'growing veggies'. Nasturtiums are perennial there! Right along with a bumper crop of snails and more than a few slugs.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    WOW! The pix are wonderful! Make you want to escape the heat and go there!
    Tyler, Texas is famous for it's roses, and there is "The Antique Rose Emporium in Brenham, Texas. I want to go there some day. I ordered their catalog this year, and their gardens are beautiful! New Braunfels, I am not sure about. I'll have to Google that one.
    Thank you for posting the pictures!

    Jeanie

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, I'm sure you're right about it being Tyler TX. I just remember a friend of mine that took a vacation from running the library in CA and made a special point of visiting the rose gardens there. Is that the little town with the strong German background? She said that everything is beautifully groomed and is just lovely, with little gift shops and things, and then the amazing antique rose gardens. Maybe that's why I thought of New Braunfels.

    About the photo from Muir Woods . . . . it's a lovely place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there. :-)

    Pat

  • tigerdawn
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have family in Brenham and we visit the Antique Rose Emporium all the time. It is very nice. Touring the Blue Bell Ice Cream factory is also nice!

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maybe one of these days I can get down there to see it. I do love some of the big old climbing damask roses, but I rather doubt that they'd make it in this climate. Even my little wild ones are suffering from the heat now. All except the one that gets water from the edge of the veggie garden. It seems to be thriving.

    I made some mention of native grasses a while ago and completely made a hash of the name of the fellow who first got me interested in them. It was Kurt Bleumel. No, I never knew him personally, but was on his mailing list for catalog and things, about 25 years ago. From what I read in the Meadow Garden book, it looks like he isn't around any more. He did some amazing work with the grasses and was a wonderful resource.

    I'm getting excited about the new xeric wildflower seeds I received today, but I need to give some serious thought to what I want to do for grasses, yucca, and the more vertical types. I did order one of the hesperaloe from High Country Gardens, but have no idea of when they might ship it.

    Pat

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pallida,

    Getting back on the subject of wild Wild Flowers.......
    I am planning on adding the following wildflowers next year. These are just the kind I love, small leaves and small numerous flowers. I found the Flame Acanthus growing in a bed at here at Will Rogers Park, a mature plant. Its listed as Zone 8 but I have grown it before and pulled it to plant something else. I'm sowing seeds next spring to start it again. The Broom Dalea is hopefully going to be easier to germinate than the Feather Dalea which I never could get to germinate and I tried three times. I got the seeds of all but the snakeweed and Flame Acanthus from Plants of the Southwest.

    Are you still planning on adding some drought hardy perennials and wildflowers? I wanted to share these with you since you said you were leaning in that direction. The Beargrass is cast iron when it comes to drought and I really like it. I have one, Nolina Texana and am adding this Nolina microcarpa. In Texas, I read its a great plant for hot dry medians and that rather says it all for its ability to take a rainless season. Its in the same family as Desert Spoon and I have had that growing successfully going on year 5 now. I am going to go ahead and sow the Broom Dalea and Bush Penstemon now for fall planting since they say sow anytime but am planning to experiment with all the seeds I ordered to fall plant. I will have backups if they don't winter over. Often, fall planting has been more successful for me than spring because the plants are more established when summer hits.

    Have you made any decisions on new ones to try?

    BROOM DALEA (native in Oklahoma)

    {{gwi:1115379}}

    FLAME ANCANTHUS

    {{gwi:1115380}}

    PERENNIAL BROOM SNAKEWEED (the annual kind is invasive, I am fairly sure this is native in Oklahoma)

    {{gwi:1115382}}

    PENSTEMON AMBIGUUS (Bush Pentemon, native in Okla)

    {{gwi:1115384}}

    NOLINA MICROCARPA (Beargrass, Texas native)

    {{gwi:1115386}}

    Here is a mixed native planting I pulled offline because I like this look very much. The red flowering shrub is Salvia Greggii. Have you tried it? These do very good in drought here and will also take some shade well. I have three.
    {{gwi:1115388}}

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That flame acanthus is just wild. Wow! It doesn't look remotely like any acanthus I'm familiar with. The salvia appears to have some form of very large artemesia growing in front of it? Like a Silver Mound on mega-steroids, unless the photo just makes it all look much larger than it really is.

    Am I wrong in thinking that I'll be best off if I save all my wildflower and water conscious seed to be started next spring? I'll stratify the ones that need it and start them all at the same time? I had no luck at all with direct seeding last fall or this spring, so I think I'll do everything in pots this time and let them develop some root structure. The recent weather has even killed the gyspophilla, and it's usually pretty tough. I'd be just sick if I lost this whole batch of seeds also. I have my heart set on some of those penstemons. Will they have a better chance of survival if I do it that way?

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactusgarden,
    Yes, I will be putting in more drought and heat-tolerant plants. I am going to follow your example, though, and order seeds this Fall. I have ordered from HCG in the past and was very pleased with the plants they sent me, but now that I am living on SS, I can't afford to order a bunch of plant material, and will have to start with seeds. I'll need to order a seed catalog in order to make selections. I will try to keep up with your suggestions. I already have zebra grass and a grass that blooms purple, then fades to a soft beige. I also have Perovskia, Echinacea, Liatris, the wild Achillea, Clammyweed, Gaillardia, Yucca Tricolor, Red Yucca, Agave, Callirhoe Wine Cups and a tall spikey succulent with saw-tooth edges ( whose name I have forgotten)that I bought at the cactus show at Will Rogers
    Park a couple of years ago and, of course, the wild Prickly Pear. I will probably pull out my sickly roses and, maybe, my Hemerocallis (since they attract deer so badly). This will leave some huge holes which I will need to replace with the xeric plants. I think Salvia Greggii and Broom would be two plants that would add color to that bed. This is exciting to think about going to a more Southwest look! Love your pix. Thanks for sharing.

    Jeanie

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am sowing the Bush Penstemon, Texas Beargrass and the Broom Dalea for fall planting. I'm saving some seed for spring just in case it doesn't work out but a head start would be nice. I don't know of a seed source for the broomweed. I found some growing on the Hispanic side of OKC in a median planting by a church. The whole thing was planted in Texas Natives. There is another equally good one with tiny yellow flowers called Damiantia that I got seeds of from a friend in Texas. By that same hot median in the parking lot was a tiny Turpentine Bush growing in a crack I dug out with my car key. Its one of my pride and joy plants since I never could find seeds on the parent after many trips at different times of the year. Whoever planted the garden had to have been from Texas.

    That silver plant by the S. Greggii is some type of wild growing artemsia/sage. This grows wild in Kansas, my sister said, up there in the black foothills (is that what its called?) around Manhattan in that dry arid part that has been set aside as a reserve. We surely have types of sagebrush in Oklahoma but I haven't looked into it. I was tempted to order Prairie sagebrush from P. of the SW but didn't because it spreads by rhizomes and I don't have room for that kind of aggression but I would think, Pat, that would definitely be a good reason for you to try it since you are trying to fill a lot of space.

    Do deer eat sagebrush?

    Another one I ordered that I am real excited about since I have wanted it so long is Indian Ricegrass. Pat, really, don't snub the grasses. They can be a great way to fill space and help with that weed problem. I would consider planting that whole strip of chicken droppings in solid Little Bluestem, If it grows it will be beautiful. I think it will grow in it and reach down roots past whatever that is on top.

    Jeanie, I might have bumped into you at that Cactus Show. If you go again, they have a guy from Socorro NM who brings in a whole boatload of interesting prickly pears and others every year that are definitely worth the trip. The whole west wall is loaded with Winter hardy cactus (many kinds) and agaves. I'm going to have to look up Hemerocallis. I know I know this plant but am wracking my brain on it now.

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, You don't need a catalog to order from Plants of the SW. I just called mine in and read it off the website. You are right about High Country Gardens. Its pretty expensive ordering plants from there even though they do have so many tempting ones and the plants are really nice. I am the Queen of Cheap when it comes to plants.

    Last year I ordered mixed wild flower and native shrub packets from WILD SEED out of Tempe Az online. I spent time separating seeds and planted them in separate pots, just to save money to get a lot of types for less money. Then I direct sowed the leftovers and had a few surprises come up I noticed when weeding. I almost never direct sow seeds I buy unless they are leftovers. I collect from plants I like and we are coming up on that time of year. I always carry little plastic bags around with me in case I stumble across anything interesting.

    I use a Jiffy plastic thing with the clear lid I bought and the little peat pellets you soak that fit into the container. For wintersowing, I just use whatever is available in home made containers with lids and set them outside using seed starting mix just like most everyone else.

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactus, I'm not snubbing the grasses at all. I've long wanted to grow some of them. I'm just trying to be selective and make up my mind on which ones I want, and not make mistakes with them. I'm also on SS and need to be careful in doling out my pennies for the garden. I've decided I definitely want one of the Apache plume . . . for sure! After that, decisions, decisions, decisions.

    You mentioned starting things in peat pellets. Two thing I've found that work really well are 1) the dome-top deli containers that hold cooked chicken, and 2) the disposable aluminum cake pans with clear lids that you can get from the dollar store. They both make perfect little 'greenhouses' for starting seeds. They are a lot cheaper than the Jiffy trays and work every bit as well, whether you are using peat pellets, pots, or paper cups. Whatever works. The cake pan style is easiest to handle because they can be stacked away for later use.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactusgarden,
    Hemerocallis are daylilies, and the deer love them.
    Yes, I talked to the man at the West wall as to the hardiness of his plants in OK, and he assured me they were hardy. I bought the "funky" serrated-edged "spike" (which is about 3' tall now), an agave (which sends out off-shoots) and another "funky" cactus that grows very tall and blooms that died. My son bought the same cactus which survived. I love those shows at WR Park, and will go again. I will have to get on the Internet and check out the prairie seed companies. As I said, I would like to have the Salvia Greggii, Broom and perhaps, Artemesia. This is a mixed bed, and the added color and contrast would look really good. You and Pat are getting me excited about adding and expanding more xeric plants.

    Jeanie

  • susanlynne48
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am rooting 3 Flame Acanthus (Anisacanthus quadrifidus var. wrightii) now - very easy to root! Also easy to start from seed, blooming second year for me. The newly planted seedlings made it thru our very cold winter and were among the first to leaf out in spring. They did not start blooming until late June, but will bloom thru fall. I love it! If anyone would like a rooted cutting, let me know. You would need to pick up in OKC.

    I grow lots of tough natives, but I think I already mentioned them in earlier response.

    Flame Acanthus is also a larval host plant for the very pretty little Texan Crescent butterfly.

    Susan

    Here is a link that might be useful: Texan Crescent butterfly

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, I've had mixed results with the artemesia family. Some are more rugged and tolerant that others, of course. One that seems to keep on going even when it's neglected (for me, at least) is Powys Castle. I love Silver Mound and it's wonderful at first, but it will tend to get straggly and flop open in the middle later on, needing to be sheared all the way back to start over and it isn't always really effective afterwards. The prostrate one called Silver Brocade is tough as nails, with a very pale gray leaf with good substance. It can stand blazing heat, Ice storms, below 0 temps, and just about anything you want to throw at it and still manage to come back. It also starts easily from cuttings.
    One that I had success with in a wretched situation in CA and it proved to be very drought tolerant is Santolina chamaecyparissus, the gray lavender cotton. It has a habit something like a sage or one of the largest artemesia and is a bit sprawly, bit I found it to be very satisfactory and requiring almost no care.
    It was growing in poor soil with a pretty high clay content, in full sun, and only got watered when the tenant remembered to do so, which wasn't often.

    I looked up the butterfly acanthus and read mixed conditions for growing it. One site said it's happy in nearly any soil, including clay, while another said that it will grow in clay if it's well-drained. Hello?? I'd like to know how they manage that. (I'm being facetious.) If I could get my clay to be well-drained, I'd be walkin' in tall cotton! Mine is either soggy and like glue, or it's bone dry and brick hard. Very little in-between going on there.

    I don't think that deer will eat sage as a rule, but I suppose it all depends on how hungry they are. The wild burros in the west will eat it, but they have multiplied to the point that they will eat anything to avoid starvation. I've seen starving horses picking through garbage heaps to try to find an edible mouthful of something. It all depends on the circumstances.

    One of my favorites as a filler with a different texture has always been the old German bearded iris. Talk about tough! My mother once tossed a few of them out on the edge of the driveway and scooped a handful of gravel over the rhizomes until she could get back to them, but then she forgot them. 20 years later and with zero care, they are still growing there in bone-dry soil that only gets winter snow and spring rain. All summer long, from May to Nov. they get nothing at all. The ones I found growing wild in our pasture and transplanted 3 years ago have now tripled in size. I'll need to thin them out if we get some decent weather this fall. Some of the newer (and expensive) hybrids are not nearly as hardy as the old purple or bronze ones that have been around forever.

    Pat

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan, I can't find the post you are talking about. What natives are you growing?

    My friend in Texas said the Flame Acanthus pops those seeds out a long distance from the plant and she was getting small plants everywhere down in Austin. I have decided to plant the next one right by the curb by the street at the end where the seeds can pop without a problem. The plant I got seeds from at Will Rogers was very nice, about 2ft high and 3ft wide and covered in blooms late summer two years ago. It was right by the curb and there were lots of seeds on the pavement. I think they come up "too easy" if you get my meaning.

    The one I dug up made it through last winter fine. They are rated Zone 8 but I don't ever let that stop me from trying. I dug mine out because it was in the way of a grass garden I planted this year and it only got half+ day sun. It doesn't boom well in only morning sun and the plant doesn't have the same character.

    I'm in OKC too.

    Jeanie, We all discovered Socorro can be counted on to exaggerate about the hardiness. Not often, but definitely sometimes. I got burned on a couple.

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is just a note on the idea of planting any of the brooms. I don't know about all of them, but Scotch broom is on the prohibited list issued by the CA Forestry Service, because of it's flammable tendency. The stuff burns like a torch. It's really pretty, but I'd need to really think twice (or maybe 3 or 4 times) before I planted any of it. Likewise any of the manzanita or creosote bush. A big mature manzanita can be quite lovely and ornamental, with its red trunk and interesting shape, but . . It's hard as iron if you ever need to prune it, and it burns hot, hot, HOT.

    Pat

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Laugh! I don't think we are in much danger of Manzanita or Creosote setting us on fire in these parts! Creosote is not offered much in the Nursery Trades and the seeds are very difficult to germinate and Manzanita is a Pacific Coast plant that I doubt would last long here.

    Its a good thing, of course, to consider fire hazards especially in rural settings. In the city, we don't much dwell on it.

    There are some annual brooms growing around here that are invasive, I hear ranchers hate them, but the one I am talking about is a perennial and I don't really have any worry about it. Its well behaved. Its recommended to plant in Texas as an ornamental.

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactus, it isn't the fact that it will set you on fire. Of course it will not. However, I've seen a lot of folks who want to plant it close to a house or building. In the event of a fire, that particular vegetation simply exacerbates it . . . a lot.
    While I don't know the growing range of all the arctostaphylos (manzanita) species, I've seen things like kinnikinnick showing up in catalogs in odd places, as far east as Virginia. I only mentioned the genus because it can be quite handsome and is drought tolerant as well, in case anyone should be tempted to try it in a xeric garden. I'd think twice about it, if it were me.

    The particular broom I'm referring to is Cytisus scoparius. It is most definitely a perennial, and a highly invasive one at that, as several of the brooms are. It's quite happy growing in zones down to 6A but is also drought tolerant. It grows from the west across the country to MD and PA. A lot of people have seen it in bloom, when it looks like a forsythia on steroids, and think they need to have it. I wouldn't plant the stuff on a bet.

    Pat

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Half empty? Half Full?

    The plant in question is Gutierrezia-sarothrae. I have babied a little plant on for over a year now and I guess I'm going to choose to live dangerously and plant it in the ground. It needs perfect drainage so I really don't think its a serious threat around here but thanks for the warning. I think you meant well.

    Kinnikinnick hates intense heat and likes moist soil. That would be my reason to not plant it.

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Half empty? Half Full?

    The plant in question is Gutierrezia-sarothrae. I have babied a little plant on for over a year now and I guess I'm going to choose to live dangerously and plant it in the ground. It needs perfect drainage so I really don't think its a serious threat around here but thanks for the warning. I think you meant well.

    Kinnikinnick hates intense heat and likes moist soil. That would be my reason to not plant it.

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Half full? half empty?

    The plant in question is Gutierrezia-saorthrae. Since I have babied this plant along for almost a year now, I guess I am choosing to live dangerously and put it in the ground this fall. It needs perfect drainage so I don't think it will pose much of a threat in these parts.

    Thank you for the warning though.

    Kinnikinnick is a low growing ground cover that hates intense heat and needs moisture. That would be my reason to avoid it.

  • susanlynne48
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeannie, Flame Acanthus is hardy to Zone 7 now. My newly planted seedlings made it thru the harsh winter we had just fine. I do give it good drainage, on a very slight slope next to the driveway. But, I think it is a very tough plant and can probably tolerate some clay soil as well. I will experiment with the cuttings.

    Pallida, some of the drought tolerant natives I have include:

    Helianthus maximilliana (perennial sunflower, gray green foliage, yellow flowers, large taproot)

    Asclepias speciosa (showy milkweed)

    Asclepias tuberosa - Butterfly Weed - good drainage

    Gaillardia 'Oranges & Lemons' actually hybrid, but gorgeous

    Gaillardia suavis - fragrant rayless Gaillardia

    Aristolochia macrophylla - bigleaf pipevine

    Aristolochia tomentosa - pipevine

    Echinacea purpureum

    Echinacea pallida

    Verbesina encelioides - Golden Crownbeard - beautiful gray green foliage with lemon yellow flowers - reseeding annual

    Verbesina alternifolia - likes some shade

    Baptisia australis var. minor - blooms early, blue spikes
    of pea-like flowers - in the legume family

    Senna hebecarpa - wild senna

    Ribes odoratum - fragrant clove-scented currant - blooms earliest of all

    Aster oblongifolius - Aromatic aster

    Desmanthus illinoense - Illinois bundleflower

    Pycnanthemum pilosum - Hairy Mountain Mint

    Rudbeckia hirta - Black Eyed Susan

    Rhus aromatica - fragrant sumac

    Ptelea trifoliata - wafer ash - shrub, small tree for Giant
    Swallowtails

    I grow others that are not as drought tolerant, so won't list them.

    Hope this helps.

    Susan

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactus, it's interesting that you say kinnikinnick hates heat and likes moisture. All the places where I've seen it thriving are bone dry for months in the summer, and usually hot. Very curious.

    I did notice that the wildflower place in MO lists one of the hypericum as being a desirable plant. Maybe that particular one is, but all the varieties of hypericum I've ever seen are hugely invasive and the root structure is a nightmare to try to get rid of once it's gotten started. I'd never think of deliberately planting it, unless it was really needed for erosion control.

    One that Susan lists is the gaillardia 'Oranges & Lemon'. I tried seed from it this year and completely failed, right along with a couple of the other Arizona hybrids and a lot of other seeds that failed. It was just a weird year for getting things to grow. I'm going to try again, even if I have to buy a couple of plants, if I can find any that are affordable. The nursery at Shawnee Feed had some in little 3" pots, but they wanted a fortune for them. I think it's beautiful, but I need to decide just how much I'm willing to pay for them. Sigh.

    I'm waiting for the rest of my order to arrive from HCG, but the hesperaloe looks really good. Does anyone know if I dare set it out in this heat, even though it's a yucca, or should I wait until it cools down just a bit?

    I really hope the grasshoppers don't decide to decimate all the new plants that are just getting established in the garden. The baptisia, white sage, perovskia and a few others are looking good, but they are still really young. I noticed yesterday that a couple of the African marigolds are chewed down to little short stumps.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan, thank you for the great list. Some of the things I already grow. Managed to kill "Oranges and Lemons" a couple of years ago, but it had dropped seed, which reverted to the regular Gaillardia, and I have a large patch of it every year, now, and, of course, it takes this horrible weather in stride. No wonder that it is the state flower. I am not seeing a lot of butterflies this Summer, just the little guys. My Cardinal Vine is not setting buds, so I'm beginning to wonder if it will. Neither is my Tropical Asclepias. Either I am getting anxious or it is too early. Having never grown either one before (because I am a perennial nut), I don't know what to expect. Thanks always for your helpful hints!

    Jeanie (Pallida)

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, I have grown that cardinal vine in the past and I am trying to remember. I think it is an earlier bloomer than July. June is more like it or just anytime it gets big enough. Maybe its the heat? I remember it was a very easy one to grow and it twines daintily around anything. I had a little volunteer come up I noticed the other day from where I put in some new grasses. Now that little seed must have been waiting for over 10 years because thats about how long ago I had it. It reseeds but not aggressively.

    Pat, since that plant is not native here, I looked it up although I cannot really figure out why we are talking about it. I never suggested it and can't figure out why all the warnings?

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a little disappointed in the Cardinal Vine. It is very healthy and is twining all over my deck railing, but I was depending on the flowers for my hummers and butterflies. Oh well, this heat is causing strange, strange gardening this year. I repeat, I hope this isn't a new weather pattern for us!

    Jeanie

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, I got to thinking and realized the one I am talking about is the Cypress Vine. I always get those two mixed up and when I googled it, seems a lot of people get these two mixed up or call them the wrong name. There is a Catholic church here, Holy Angels, that always had it very thick and blooming on the back porch of the rectory. Very pretty like that. It was in every way a nicer vine (in my opinion) than the Cypress Vine, I thought at the time. Which one do you have?

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactusgarden,
    Yes. The two vines are confused all of the time. I have the Cardinal Vine with the larger leaves. I, too, think it is the more attractive of the two. Having never grown it before, I am not certain of it's bloom time.
    I see you have done a lot of nursery shopping in OKC. Over the years, I worked at Warren & Son's, Satterlee's, TLC, Lovable Critters, Lowe's in Yukon and on Memorial Rd. Of all these nurseries, my favorite was Satterlee's. I heard John Satterlee had cancer quite some time ago. I wonder if he is still with us. I truly love that man. He really knew his business! Wonder if I ever waited on you or shopped alongside you, because I also frequented Cooper's, Moesel's (they used to have a nursery down the road from my home in Pauls Valley before they moved to OKC.), Precure's and Marcum's South of Norman. Do you know Wayne and Susan Chambers of Rose Rock? Susan taught me the nursery business when I first started out at Warren & Son's. Life situations and moving all over the OKC area is why my nursery experience is so spread out. My basic love of gardening came from my paternal Grandmother. As I have said before, she could grow anything!
    Other than Victory Garden and Oklahoma Gardening, one of my favorite shows used to be Gardening by the Yard with Paul James. He lives in Tulsa but does his show out of, I think, Nashville. Can't remember, for
    sure. Saw him shopping one time at Southwood's in Tulsa, and it was all I could do to restrain myself from going up to him and asking a 1001 questions. Are you a Master Gardener? I know Pat is and Dawn SHOULD be! It's very obvious you gals know how to garden and are familiar with plant materials. As a matter of fact, I see a LOT of experienced, knowledgable people on this forum!

    Jeanie

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie, I am no master gardener. Not even close. I am sure you could run circles around me many times over. I am an artist and like garden design as a hobby and escape. I get interested in different plants strictly for combinations of texture, color and theme. I am not too interested in flowers really and they are incidental to plants I choose. I am very limited in my gardening knowledge because I couldn't tell anyone anything about soil types, pest control, vegetables, trees or many other things I am just not very interested in. If I get interested in a specific group of plants, I will read up on them and get to know the names and needs frontwards and backwards but as far as general gardening is concerned, I am not a good resource for information due to lack of interest. Soil discussion? I am heading for the door. Native grasses? I am all ears but would rather be out on a hunt for them. Roses? I'm definitely out of there. But, I do like challenges in sowing the plants I am interested in which often requires a lot of luck because of the type of plants they are. I like trying new things and pushing the zone limit and experimenting. If it dies, I don't get very ruffled about it and like taking chances with plants. I think gardening should of all things be relaxed, easy going and fun.

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie and Cactus, I stil really want to get some of the gaillardia going, but I don't appear to be having any luck with it so far. Surprisingly, I have not seen any of it growing wild since I've been here, even though it's the state flower. Maybe it's in certain areas or counties? I suppose I could always take a drive out towards my daughter's old place in Little. About 15 years ago I had a whole bunch of wildflower seed that I'd collected. Mostly gaillardia, with a bit of coreopsis mixed in. She owned 80 acres out in the country with a long and deep road front. I took 1/2 of a #12 grocery bag (the big brown bags) full of seed and scattered it all along that strip of frontage. I wonder if it ever took?
    I don't know if it was the right thing to do or not, but it seemed so at the time.

    Do the fancy gaillardias revert back to the original fairly quickly? They are a short-lived perennial, aren't they? And any seed saved from the hybrids will probably not come true? As wonderful as they are, it almost makes it not worthwhile to buy the fancy ones. I wonder if their hardiness is any different than the original wildflower? Does anyone know?

    I tried hybridizing some coreopsis a few years ago, and had some pretty nice plants. Unfortunately, we had a lot of general ones everywhere and my father went on a weeding spree. He didn't realize he was weeding up the patch of my select ones that had carefully been set off to one side. I did the same with gloriosa daisies, but the same thing happened with them. Ah, well.
    Has anyone tried specifically saving seed from the best of the gaillardias in their garden to see what happens, or is that what you did, Jeanie?

    Also, on the hesperaloe, I read a bunch of mixed reviews about propagating it. Some folks said it tends to have a lot of babies, and some said it has never done that in their garden. These were widely separated around the country. Does anyone know what it likes to do under OK growing conditions?

    I also noticed that the wildflower place in MO advertises a wild perennial geranium. Is is tougher and more able to cope with this climate than the ones that have been hybridized? I've tried several of those and lost every one. I thought, with their deep root system, that they would work, and they didn't. maybe if I give them more time in pots to develop a good root system before setting them out?

    I don't even want to talk about what's happening with the redwoods. It makes me slightly ill. Anyone who has ever seen a clear-cut forest would agree. The devastation defies comprehension.

    Pat

  • Pallida
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactusgarden,
    Well, you certainly have an artist's eye in your xeric landscaping. It is beautiful!

    Pat,
    The Oranges and Lemons hybrid Gaillardia that I killed dropped seeds that reverted to the original red and yellow rayed Gaillardia.
    They drop many, many seeds, and I just let them grow.
    I'm not sure what Geraniums you are trying to grow, but, as best I can remember, the old red, pink, white, peach colored Pelergoniums with large flowers are a succulent and are not Winter hardy here. The Cranesbills with single flowers are perennial. I've never heard of a wild Geranium, unless it would be a form of Cranesbill. About the worst thing you can do to a Pelergonium is over-water it.

    Jeanie

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jeanie,

    No, I'm talking about cranesbills. I do have pelargoniums also, but would never attempt to over-winter them. Most of the cranesbill I've grown in the past have been really tough and hardy. The one that's listed on the MO wildflower site for plants and seeds is geranium maculatum. I think I may need to check it out a little further.

    Pat

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jeanie,

    My post got snipped. I had another paragraph about some of the local garden centers and somehow it deleted. I keeping on this original post so I can refer to yours.

    I never heard of Paul James. I watched the other two shows. I bet I have run into you before. Had to. Cactus Show, those same nurseries. Had to have bumped into you sometime. I wonder if you were the woman at Satterlee's I talked to a few times? Once I was in there searching for Texas Grass Sage and someone sat with me and tried to find it in a small office on a computer looking at me like I was making the plant up. Wonder if it was you? Ha! Nah, I don't think you would have thought I was making it up, I was a woman on a quest and it was obvious. I used to go there and Coopers a lot. Satterlee's was my favorite too but Moesels was just so bizarre somehow, like another world. She always would ask, on your way out the door "You need any peat moss with that?" No matter what you were looking for, she'd go pluck it out of what appeared on the surface like a disorganized mess. Thats what made it so fun, the lack of rhyme or reason to it all. Satterlees had native grasses and was the first place I ever saw Pink Muhly and Pannicum, before it became popular. They had this whole area in glowing pink with that muhly grass one year. Remember those gorgeous pines? Lots of succulents that were unusual too. I didn't ever go to some you mentioned. Precure was too far out and I have never been there. They are still around aren't they? I have never heard of Warren and Sons or Lovable Critters. I do know Alligator Alley however.

    Do you have a degree in horticulture?

    Pat, I have a lot of Hesperaloe and they multiply by side shoots and I get seedlings too. The seedlings take quite a while, about 3 or 4 years to get to blooming size. It probably depends on your soil etc how they do in any given area. I don't think there is an "Oklahoma Rule" that would be different than other states. If you ever try to separate a pup, make sure to let the root callous for a week or so. I have had them sitting out of the ground for weeks at a time, if that tells you anything about their drought tolerance. By the way, these and especially the Apache Plume don't look good along side of certain plants. They need subtle and muted color companions rather than very green plants with lush green leaves and lots of flowers overwhelming the softer desert colors. For example, gaillardia would not be a good choice.

  • susanlynne48
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A friend of mine advised that the secret to getting the Gaillardia 'Oranges and Lemons' to overwinter is to NOT deadhead it. The seedheads are attractive. This is my first year with it, so will have to report next spring, success or failure.

    I really like Precure Nursery - they offer a number of native plants, like the Baptisia and Pearly Everlasting I got. I always get my Rue and Fennel there because they have nice, big plants, oftentimes with Black Swallowtail cats as a bonus.

    My all time fave nursery, tho, was Warren's. I got my Passiflora 'Lavender Lady' from them and it is still going strong.

    Other natives I have gotten from Wild Things when they go to various Farmer's Markets. She sells tons of them, rare ones you would never find at a commercial nursery. But, that is over for this year. Check out their website. She always brings caterpillars of various butterflies, too, eating their larval host plants. The kids, in particular, love it! I have purchased numerous plants from her over the years, including my False Nettle (Boehmeria cylindrica) that is a host for the Red Admiral butterfly.

    I loved Satterlee's, too, but they were pretty expensive on a lot of their plants. Horn's is a little less expensive. I was sad to see them close the doors on Satterlee's.

    I stood outside and watered for 4 hours yesterday until 12:45. Thought I would pass out, tho drinking lots of water. Had to do it since I have been at my daughter's for the past week and things needed attention.

    Susan

  • redding
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cactus, I was planning to put the hesperaloe in a dry area that would really have nothing in front of it but the spreading pink oenothera. I thought the two forms and colors might work well together. Behind it is nothing but the ugly chain link fence and a patch we keep bare on the outside so we can set out the trash cans.

    Jeanie, I was puzzled by the description of the wild cranesbill that is supposed to require shade, a humus soil, and regular water, so I looked it up. All the ones I've grown have a very vigorous root system and can take full sun in stride. It appears that this particular one (maculatum) is also native to OK, but only for areas NE of Tulsa. It does like some shade but will also grow in part sun and can take a dry soil. I imagine that like all the cranesbill, it would appreciate some water if it's going to be full and lush, but it's pretty tough. I've included a link to the page in the wildflower site that describes it. It does not seem to take on showy fall color like some of them will do.

    Pat

    Here is a link that might be useful: Geranium maculatum (wild Crane's bill)

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan I have never heard of Wild Things. Which Farmers Market to they sell from? I have only gone to the Farmer's Market down there by the Stockyards.

    I tried the passiflora one year. I haven't ever heard anyone complain about it and thought it was such a pretty vine, but I have to tell you what happened. Maybe mine was some wild version? First, the entire thing was totally denuded every year by wall to wall caterpillars, (I am talking thick) so you lost most of it except the stems to look at most of the time. The second year after I planted it up by the house, it made a clearly marked straight path of the sewer line all the way down the backyard to the end of the property. Little vines that would grow about 50 times faster than the grass. Looked terrible. I haven't ever heard anyone else complain so my guess has always been that mine was some kind of unimproved native. I moved from that house, never able to rid myself of it and I would bet its still going strong today, many years after.

  • susanlynne48
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The native passion vine, P. incarnata, is a rampant grower. I have noticed that if I pull up the small starts, it will not come back in that spot like some other plants do, though.

    The caterpillars are the larvae of the beautiful Gulf Fritillary, a brilliant, large orange butterfly with silver markings on the underwings. They look like flying jewels. So, that is specifically why I grow it. Some years the population is huge, and some, like this year (due to the drought), they are non-existent. There are more well-behaved vines that will thrive here, like P. 'Lavender Lady', flowers are deep purple. But, the only passion vines that are toxic to the butterflies are the red ones. They are not hardy here anyway. I love the Gulf Fritillaries because they hang around the garden longer than most butterflies.

    Susan

    Here is a link that might be useful: Gulf Fritillary Butterfly Life Cycle

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan, I looked up Gulf Fritillary. Seems that is the only host plant for it. I guess I did my part in its survival and hopefully, that vine I planted is still there. I have a strange small black butterfly that visits only one plant in my yard each fall. They have red on the head and are very black. I saw them the first time last year on my Rabbit Bush. Hundreds of them.

    I found a resource for wildflower and grass seeds @ only $1.50/pack looking for that butterfly that I'd never seen before. Its called Prairie Frontier.

    If you haven't heard of it, another you might want to check out which offers many hard to find and unusual seed is Horizon Herbs. A large selection of seed and bare root plants, many I have never heard of. I ordered a free catalog from their online website last year and its interesting.

  • susanlynne48
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The small black butterfly is probably one of the spread-wing skippers, like Wild Indigo Duskywing (host is Baptisia), Scallopwing, or Sootywing.

    From my reading, the Gulf Fritillary may not make it into Oklahoma this year due to the drought conditions in Texas and Oklahoma. Wah!!! It is a very dry year not only in terms of drought, but in terms of butterfly numbers as well.

    Susan

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan,

    It took me forever to ID that butterfly last year. The Rabbitbush was the only plant it was on and I had never seen anything like them and had to look close to see if they were butterflies or something else.

    They were Ctenucha virginica.

    They must have been migrating (?) because I saw no caterpillars on the plant and there were hundreds of them and it only lasted about 3 or 4 days. Have you ever seen them before? Do you grow mostly butterfly plants or are you more general? I have one I really like called Ipomopsis rubra (Skyrocket or Standing Cypress). Its a biennial that is vertical and takes up very little horizontal space. It really attracts hummingbirds and is tall. Very drought hardy too.

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan,

    It took me forever to ID that butterfly last year. The Rabbitbush was the only plant it was on and I had never seen anything like them and had to look close to see if they were butterflies or something else.

    They were Ctenucha virginica.

    They must have been migrating (?) because I saw no caterpillars on the plant and there were hundreds of them and it only lasted about 3 or 4 days. Have you ever seen them before? Do you grow mostly butterfly plants or are you more general? I have one I really like called Ipomopsis rubra (Skyrocket or Standing Cypress). Its a biennial that is vertical and takes up very little horizontal space. It really attracts hummingbirds and is tall. Very drought hardy too.

  • susanlynne48
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We don't get the Virginia Ctenuche here in Oklahoma. It is an Northeastern moth species. What we get here in Oklahoma that looks almost identical is the Yellow-Collared Scape Moth. I get them nectaring on my Conoclinum coelestinum (fka Eupatorium coelestinum) aka Hardy Ageratum, and fall asters, A. oblongifolius and A. tartaricus 'Jindai'. They are one of the group of moths that are wasp mimics. They are pretty little things, aren't they?

    Do you know the latin name for your Rabbit Bush? I find several things listed under that name.

    Susan

    Here is a link that might be useful: Yellow-Collared Scape Moth

  • cactusgarden
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Susan, I got that ID from the North America Wildlife forum last year. Almost everyone there was from eastern states. I had tried posting it on the Southwest Gardenweb forum too since the shrub is from New Mexico. No luck and I was told it was not a butterfly since I described them as "swarming" and "buzzing". It was only the antennae that had made me sure they were butterflies when I saw them. The most amazing thing however, was the number of them.

    You ID'ed it correctly after over a year. I think you know your butterflies. The shrub is one of my favorites and is the very common type that grows all over New Mexico in the wild. Latin name is Chrysothamnus nauseosus also called Chamisa. Another Latin name that is used is Ericameria nauseosa. I sowed mine from seed at the same time as I sowed the Apache Plume (Fallugia paradoxa) and Winterfat (Ceratoides lanata) shrubs. They are all mature shrubs now and very nice. The Apache Plume attracts a lot of butterflies too.

    My Flame Acanthus is up from seeds. The seeds were collected last year but still good.

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