Barbara, I did a search to see what dilution you were using - I read that you "added a little till you could smell it?" Is that right? Could you give us a little better estimate as to how much per gallon? I have most of my plants that I'm ready to pull out and trash. We live north of Oklahoma City and have had rain, rain, rain - it's like a bog in my gardens, and every tomato plant is stressed and showing disease problems - I would like to save even a few. I'm going to pull them out anyway so trying the bleach isn't going to cost much.

Barbara,

Are you positive it was actually Late Blight, Phytopthera infestans, and not Early Blight, Altaneria soari? As far as I know, nothing is really effective on Late Blight-infected plants, which is why gardeners in as many as 25 states have lost part or all (mostly all) of their plants to this year's Late Blight epidemic. Commercial growers do have access to restricted fungicides which home gardeners cannot purchase, and some of those commercial growers have been able to save part of their tomato crops with these heavy-duty systemic fungicides.

If you'd had Late Blight on your tomato plants, they likely would have been dead within 2-4 days of the time the first symptoms appeared.

I'm more inclined to think your plants had Early Blight, which is very common here, and not Late Blight, which isn't. You also may have had bacterial infections like Septoria Leaf Spot, Bacterial Speck or Bacterial Spot along with Early Blight. With all of those, bleach likely would have had a positive effect.

You would have seen the lesions on your tomato stems with diseases other than Late Blight so they alone are not an identifying factor. If your plants did have Late Blight, you should have seen the spores on your plants.

I've never heard of any 'home remdey' like bleach, hydrogen peroxide, rubbing alcohol, etc. having any effect whatsoever on true Late Blight.

My concern is that people searching the internet for a Late Blight solution will use the bleach instead of promptly removing and bagging diseased plants to prevent the spores from speading.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but just want you to be positive what tomato disease the plants actually had.

Dawn

Dawn, you said:
"I'm more inclined to think your plants had Early Blight, which is very common here, and not Late Blight, which isn't. You also may have had bacterial infections like Septoria Leaf Spot, Bacterial Speck or Bacterial Spot along with Early Blight. With all of those, bleach likely would have had a positive effect."

I honestly don't know. Thinking about when I made the post Saturday, I meant to say Early Blight and instead said, Late Blight. My bad, just too tired from work, etc.

Anyway, if it was Early Blight, plus any and all of the bacterial diseases, or whatever it was, the chlorine bleach stopped it, or them almost immediately. It took a few days for the affected leaves to go ahead and die, but the rest of the foliage on ALL the tomato plants affected took off like a shot, and growing like there is no tommorrow with no sign of any kind of disease whatever.
. I'm obviously not an expert, but lets just say I was very impressed with the chlorine bleach spray. If there were indeed bacterial diseases on the plants, it sterilized those as well.

Of course chlorine bleach is not a systemic fungicide, but I've tried other fungicides and I've never found one that worked better. Would never use a systemic fungicide on my plants even if I could purchase one anyway.

Farmergardener,
I didn't measure, it was just as I said, diluting the chlorine bleach with water until there was a noticable "smell'. I sprayed in the evening while it was cool so as not to burn the plants.

The plant symptoms originally appeared after a series of heavy rains followed by high heat and humidity, like you. If you were going to pull the plants anyway, I would give them a good spray all over, since you really have nothing to loose. It depends a lot on whether or not it continues to rain, or if it starts to dry out and get warm enough to allow the plants to heal and establish new growth, (which was my experience).

Barbara

Barbara, I have a lot of problems with EB because we get so much rain in the spring. Last year, I lost all my tomato plants to it.

This year I had the same problem but at least I had more plants, in various stages of growth. The reason that happened was that my extra plants that I usually sell at my spring garage sale didn't get sold as the garage sale weekend turned off so cold I couldn't put them out till the afternoon of the last day. It's funny how people are. When the weather's hot, they won't buy a coat, even though it's going to be cold eventually. And when the weather's cold, they won't buy plants or summer clothes. LOL! But anyway, the plants that didn't sell, I just left them in their 32-oz soft-drink cups. I kept them outside and I admit sometimes forgot to water them till they would start to wilt. I gave a bunch away and planned to sell the remainder but never got around to it. So about late June I found places here and there to plant them because I couldn't bear to just throw them away. I pulled some of my early spring plantings out, cut some back, and sprayed with Neem Oil. Some of the cut-back and Neem-Oil treated plants came out of it and are blooming again, but they probably won't have time to ripen before the first frost. A few of the Neem-Oil sprayed ones, not cut back, made it through but they are just now putting on new fruit. I'd say I ended up pulling 50% of the plants I had. But the plants that had sat in their drink cups all that long time, pot-bound and frequently forgotten, have filled the gap. We have had fresh tomatoes to eat all summer, and I have canned several quarts of them for winter recipes.

It's probably too late in the year now but I have a couple of plants that are turning brown from the ground up. I really have nothing to lose, so think I will try 1/2 cup of bleach to one gallon of water. Does that sound too strong/weak? We have a 70% chance of rain for tomorrow. Though Mesonet has shown some chance of rain for us for several days now we have had clouds and cool weather but no rain. But about five days ago we had a couple days of soaking rain.

I do plan to try the bleach next spring, for sure! Thanks for telling us about it. I would've never thought to try that on my own!

Ilene
I completely understand the problem. If you are expecting rain, I would go ahead and spray the plants now with the 1/2 cup to 3/4 cup per gal of water. Not drenching them, but just lightly spray the complete plant top to bottom. And then once again after it rains. If their not too far gone, they should recover.

I don't know if I mentioned it before in a post, but a long time ago, I had a little Russian Gray female cat that somehow picked up a ringworm fungus. A trip to the vet and some fungal salve produced nothing but a big vet bill, and messy cat hair. In desparation, I mixed a bleach solution and water, and dabbed it on her with a cotton ball. Guess what, the ringworm disappeared after several applications, with no harm to the cat.

I also sprayed my zinnias and morning glories that had BAD powdery mildew with a garden hose and bleach in a sprayer. It got rid of the PM and they returned to their former growth and beauty.

This summer, I'd sort of forgotten about my old remedy, and started whining about powdery mildew getting on squash, cuke and melon vines and tried the usual store bought fungicidals thinking I was doing the correct organic gardener thing, and sprayed with them and it didn't do a thing to stop the spread of the stuff. Chlorine bleach solution did.

Oh, and it also got rid of my DS's athlete foot problem when all the high dollar store bought stuff did not.
So, yes, I believe in chlorine bleach as the very best fungicide.....and germ killer. Sometimes the simplest things are the best answer.

Like I said before, at this stage, if you were getting ready to trash your tom plants, at least give them a chance and spray. With any kind of luck, we may yet have some nice warm Indian summer to enjoy before frost, and lots more tomatos :)
Good luck,
Barbara

Barbara,
Like I'm sure you and many others know who read this forum know I use clorox solutions for many things including soaking the seeds I sow. I haven't used it like you have for plant diseases but do plan to try it. Have one I may spray today. I have used Daconil for several years and it works as well as anything I've tried to this point. Have tried most of the other products including several different copper sprays and in my experience it was money wasted. I experimented with several things this summer. I think a few of them show promise. Whether used alone or in a rotation system. I had a wide range of disease problems this summer so another reason that using several in a rotation might work better for me. The peroxide and rubbing alcohol showed promise to me. I only sprayed with skim milk once.So can't say for sure about it.And in the case of all I will with hold judgement till I use the product a few years. I don't feel even one summer lets a person make a fair judgement. I will try the clorox solution and let you know my impressions. My suggestion on anything new is too use it on a few and make comparisons. Your results may not mirror mine. In summary I think there are several things we can use that is as or more effective as the commercial products available. JMO. Jay

I used bleach on poison ivy once. I was pretty desperate but it worked.

Will the chlorine evaporate or can it build up in the soil? It kills earthworms but you probably aren't using that much. I bleached my stained concrete and washed it off with the hose; earthworms were harmed. Now I am more careful.

Barbara,

I was thinking (hoping) you meant Early Blight and misspoke and called it Late Blight.

I could just picture thousands of frustrated eastern, northeastern and midwestern gardeners googling for rememdies for late blight, finding your post, and inundating you with questions and e-mails.

I'm glad it worked for you, but I still don't feel especially inclined to use bleach in the garden. I worry that it would affect microbial life in the soil and beneficial insects. Guess I need to google and see if any research on the use of bleach in the veggie garden has been conducted, and in particular, if anyone has studied its effects on soil microbes, earthworms and beneficial insects.

I am going to bleach-wash all my tomato cages and metal stakes this winter, and then again in the spring at planting time and hope that helps. I'm also probably going to replace the remaining wooden stakes with metal ones although I sort of dread the expense of doing that.

Helen, I was afraid it would affect earthworms so your report didn't surprise me.

Maybe we could deliberately spray it on some insects that plague us and are resistant to common organic pesticides----grasshoppers, blister beetles, Japanese beetles, stink bugs, leaf-footed bugs and squash bugs are a few that come to mind.

Dawn

Dawn
What I am using is a fine mist which stays on the plants, not drenching them to the point of run off.

I had asked a septic guy when I lived in Grove on the lake, if my laundry bleach would harm the septic bacteria, and he told me, (for what it's worth) that by the time it hit the septic, the bleach factor would have worn off, I suppose much like the chlorine in our drinking water dissipates if left standing overnight.

I can't verify all this scientifically of course, but my usage was experimental, and in desparation, because it looked like I was getting ready to loose a lot of tomato plants.

So, again, I am not soaking the ground with it, but rather, just as I said, light misting all over with a dilute solution. If some did get on my mulched hay, it wouldn't be enough to reach into the soil to harm microbes, but rather tend to kill any disease or fungal elements in the hay.

Each person has to decide for themselves what measures to take for EB and other diseases. I'm not recommending or even suggesting folks should do this as I did, just reporting the results I had with it, which were good. In fact, next spring, I plan to lightly spray any plants I may buy at the nurserys as soon as I bring them home as a preventative measure.

Barbara

Jay, I did quite a lot of reading on the usage of milk, and they recommended that it be sprayed once a week to eliminate the onset of powdery mildrew rather than a treatment after it arrives. I am going to keep that in mind for next year. This has been a bad year for PM in my garden. Twice, I had beautiful cucumber vines covered in blooms, just about fruiting time the PM hit. Some squash got it pretty bad also.

I sprayed a light bleach solution on a tomato plant that seemed to have a lot of some kind of insect on it. They were mostly around the new blooms where the hairy parts of the vine are. I tried picking them off and it was impossible. I think they were some type of little worm because I saw a couple of small ones nearby. I thought they might be army worms, but they were tiny. The bleach killed the pest but did no harm to the plant. I would use it again, but I used a weak solution in a spray bottle.

Hey guys - I've got another question on this "bleach" subject. And maybe I should go read my bleach bottle first......"OH DH....???? Would you mind fetching me the bleach bottle out of the garage?" Of course he did! LOL

We have an above ground pool. We use a "chlorine free" product in that water...which isn't really chlorine free. It is just a different type of chlorine. Where as the laundry bleach (I read the label) and the Chlorine tablets normally used in pools are Sodium Chloride (or Sodium Hydroclorite), what we use is Lithium Chloride. It acheives the same effect without being as harsh. My grandkids and others (including me) can swim without burning eyes,breathing problems or dried skin. It's also much easier on the pump because it doesn't get the buildup of calcium and sodium. (They explained that to me when we bought the pool so we didn't screw up our warranty) We get this in a powder form at the pool supply. The recipe for our pool is 1 bag (about like a sandwich bag full of powder) to 50,000 gallons per week. We have to wait overnite before swimming to get in the water. ANYWAY~~~~~my thought is this - could we maybe use like a tablespoon for like 5 gals of water and use it the same way? Maybe it wouldn't have any buildup on the dirt or harm any beneficial insects? Also maybe wouldn't leave any residue on the leaves or stalks in a dry hot summer season? Just a thought, but I'm thinking I'm going to be trying this next spring. I think one bag would last all summer even if treating every other week. If anyone else wants to try this and doesn't know where to go buy the stuff, I'll be happy to pick up some extra bags and mail them to you. I've gotta get some anyway for our pool so it wouldn't be any problem to pick up a few extra. It's about $6 a bag this year. DH does want me to mention that it's still strong enough that it does harm bermuda grass. We have patches of yellow and thin grass where we discharge the pool water. It does recover, however, in about 2 weeks.

Just a question that came to my geeky mind. Let me know what you think?

Paula

Barbara, I certainly have no quarrel with your use of bleach. It has long been recommended as a home remedy for fungal and some bacterial issues on some kinds of plants, although there usually is a "be careful not to burn your foliage" type warning made by the person or persons who recommend spraying it on plants.

I do have an uneasy feeling about spraying any salt-containing compound on any of my plants. Even if you mist the plants and there is no runoff to the mulch or soil below, I still believe dew and rain will dissolve the dried sodium on the leaves and cause the sodium to fall to the ground below where it may eventually cause problems. If you only use bleach rarely, this might not matter, but regular use could negatively impact your soil. This might not matter to folks who have pretty acidic to neutral soil and water, but I have alkaline soil and water that already are higher in salts (and, thus, with a higher pH) than I'd like, so I work to lower my pH continually. Using bleach would work against those efforts. I also don't want to spray anything that will negatively impact beneficial insects, and all sodium compounds do affect them to an extent because sodiums are dessicants.

Paula, Oh, you just know that I am going to say I wouldn't do it, don't you? Read the adverse health affects on the lithium hydrochlorite MSDS linked below and see if you still would feel comfortable using it. I wouldn't. I am especially bothered by all its potential health affects and also by the fact that it is considered a mutagenic agent for bacteria. Do you really want the bacteria in your garden exposed to something that could cause them to mutate?

Because lithium hydrochlorite is not sold or tested as a garden product, you'd be using it at your own risk.

Y'all, I am just an old organic fuddy-duddy. I won't hardly spray anything in my garden at all, whether synthetic or organic in nature. I did use a little neem oil on my brugs when they had aphids in February. I did use some granular spinosad in the veggie garden, and bought the bottled spinosad for blister beetles but never opened it and used it because I never saw more than 3 or 4 in one day, so just snipped them in half with my scissors.

I bought Kocide and Daconil when the Septoria leaf spot started up this summer and both remain unopened on my screened-in porch. Even once I had them, I just couldn't make myself spray them. I do intend to spray them next year, alternating them to avoid resistance, from the first week the plants go into the ground.

I think a lot of my opposition to spraying anything in my garden is a result of my battle with cancer 10 years ago. So many of the MSDS documents for these varous garden products list them as potential carcinogens and that is hard for me to overcome. For ten years now, I've told Tim I'm going to spray Daconil "next year" and then when next year arrives, I cannot overcome my inner reservations and make myself do it.

Different strokes for different folks!

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: MSDS For Lithium Hypochlorite

Dawn
I can certainly understand your concern over using potential carcinogens after having a scary bout with cancer. Clearly, we don't want to use anything to the extent that it would either harm our health, or our soil.

I've worked so laboriously at building up my soil since buying this place that it would be counterproductive to set about tearing it down again.

Once more, I'd like to reiterate that I'm not using the chlorine spray on a regular basis. Rather, it was used lightly on a one time shot to curb what was inevitable plant death to the tomatos I had nurtured so carefully all summer. I would hope that other folks wouldn't get carried away with using it either.

Anyways, since this seems to becoming a sort of issue, I thought I'd mention that regular use of city tap water for watering the garden, has a certain amount of chlorine in it, and has a cumulative effect of building up salts in garden soil, or so I've been told. That's why, I try to use my unchlorinated well water almost exclusively. I don't even like to bath or shower in the city water, and plan to install declorinators on the shower heads, etc.

Anyway, since the issue has been brought up, and it's rather a good one, because we can do some digging other than in the garden dirt, I came up with an item on Dirt Doctor that a fellow mentioned, that he'd come up with an idea to make a dechlorinator for his garden hose. Apparently what he does is rig up a spray head on his hose with some of that stuff we used to use in our aquariums to declorinate the water. It worked like magic and didn't kill all the expensive aquarium fish as tap water would have because of the chlorine in it. I'll post the link for those of you who might be interested in doing something like that. I thought it was a super idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: Garden Hose Dechlorinator attachment

And as some may remember from when my DH was diagnosed with Parkinson's a couple years ago, I did a search and learned that Rotenone, which as organic gardeners we relied on and used for years, has been linked to the development of Parkinson's. In my husband's case, it wasn't the only risk factor as he is a diesel mechanic and has been exposed to fumes for years. Still we no longer use Rotenone.

Concerning the use of water to water a garden, we used to water with our well, which is a strong one, but it is also strongly limey and we killed our first planting of blueberries with it and had a real problem with other acidloving plants. So have been using "city water" since. I filter it for drinking and cooking. (Too much lime water isn't good for people either, with the excess calcium building up in the joints, but that's another story.) But I never thought about the longterm effect of watering the garden with it. Haven't had to water much this year so surely the clorine has leached way down. But for dry years I am going to think about that hose end declorinator.

We filter all our crappy tap water with a good charcoal filter that filters out not only chlorine but a lot of other unwanted, potentially harmful elements.

I'm wondering if you couldn't arrange some sort of charcoal filtration system for your well water that would filter out the lime. My dad did that for his cistern water. Just a thought.

When I lived on the West side of Grove, there was a local water well system for that community that came out of the tap BLACK! I bought a little electric charcoal filter machine that would filter the water and it would come out perfectly clear, safe and drinkable.

Nowadays, you can't be too careful about toxins. They're in almost everything, from the air we breath to cleaning supplies to the food we eat, (from the market, that is).
Seems like our gardens are the only SAFE place! With the exceptions of some critters that is.

Barbara

Barbara, where did you live in Grove?

Carol
This was the first place I lived in Grove. To get there, heading toward Rainbow Bridge, you'd take the cut off at Tom Cat Corner, (turning left), and go straight through on the blacktop almost to the end of the line, and then hang a right. The water tower was right there, next to my house.

We did manage to have an outstanding raised bed garden there with much amendments thanks to a pickup load of mushroom fertilizer from the farm at Miami. I had that bed chocked so full of dynamic veggies the weeds didn't stand a chance. But I also added a big feed store sack of bone meal and gypsum.
Barbara

I believe "Rainbow Bridge" is "Sailboat Bridge", but I know the area because of Tom Cat Corner. That Farmers Market grocery near there closed this year. I live north of the downtown area about 3 miles. The bowling alley is on Cherokee street and I live north of there and about a block from the water.

Barbara,
I agree we need to watch what we apply either to the soil or that can end up in the soil. And yes they say that there can be a build up caused by chlorine in the water. But when it comes to salts manure is a lot easier to over apply and cause a build up from my research and experience than chlorine in the water. And unless you were applying really strong and often in my opinion it would bethe same about spraying with it. The rule of thumb I've been told and go by for adding straight manure to gardens is 3 inches every 3 years or no more than an inch a year.If your manure is a mixture manure and bedding then that can change. Most of mine is straight. Two years ago I applied quite a bit heavier as I had lots of manure I wanted to apply. I have paid the consequences since. Didn't add any last year except to the garlic. Will run tests this year but expect everything will still be high this year. Sometimes you can get too much of a good thing. And when I applied the manure the one thing I never thought about was salt build up. I know some of the irrigated farmers have told me the same about applying it to farm ground. Say you have to be careful not to get too high a salt build up. What I will do now is use soybean meal, cottonseed meal, alfalfa pellets and corn gluten to supplement the manure when additional fertilizer is needed. In the end we each have to make decisions on what to use based what we feel is best in our garden from our experiences and research. Jay

Dorothy, I thought of you and your DH a week or two ago when I saw the results of another Rotenone/Parkinson's study. (sigh)

Y'all, This is one of the reasons I won't hardly use any organic pesticides either, because several of them--like Rotenone and Pyrethrins have been found to have pretty serious issues. Just because something is organic in nature instead of synthetic doesn't mean it is safe, although for a long time many of us thought organic in origin did equal 'safe'.

It was J. Howard Garrett, the Dirt Doctor, who started in years ago warning of issues with rotenone and pyrethrin (especially the formulations that have PPO added to them) and other supposedly safe organic remedies, and I remember feeling frustrated and thinking to myself "well, what is there left that we can use then?" The answer, pretty much, was neem oil, orange oil, insecticidal soaps and Bt. Since then, spinosad has come along and that has helped. Still, I used less and less and less 'stuff' in my garden every year and I always get good yields. The garden might not look as good as it did when I fought bugs and diseases more actively, but it produces as much if not more, so I can live with it looking less beautiful.

It has taken me years and years to get comfortable with doing 'nothing' and letting the plants fight the diseases and pests pretty much on their own but that is pretty much what I do nowadays. I've noticed over the years that nobody here is giving the pasture or woodland plants any assistance in terms of pest control, fungicides or fertilizers and they all do just fine without the extra help, so I am applying some of that principle to my veggies and flowers.

Dawn

For years I have used NOTHING, not even organic. This year I broke down and used round-up and also bought a bottle of Daconil. I used it a few times but really couldn't tell that it helped. Maybe it did and I just didn't know what to look for. I did try the mild bleach solution spray but it was a very weak solution. I also used some container soil that had fertilizer in it and I normally don't even do that. I guess I got lazy this year. I got such a late start and so much to do that I tried to take the easy way out but I probably won't do it again except for the round-up and I am going to have to keep using that for awhile. I am trying to "search and destroy" all the new little seeds that are germinating, but it is keeping me busy. I have a ton of cardboard put away for spring, so I am going to try several different ways and see what works best for me.

Carol
I meant Sailboat bridge. Duh! We were just boating underneath it in July on a little family trip with the ABQ DS. Well, it's been awhile since I've lived there. Both parents buried there. We bought the house overlooking the lake in Cedar Ridge,(fairly close to Lee's Resort), so dad who'd had a stroke could view the boats and water. He'd been an avid fisherman all his life.

Jay, I don't have access to horse manure or bedding, and this year, pretty much decided, that it would be better if I continued to build the soil with my own mulch, etc. so as not to disturb the natural balance. The exception I made was to buy some bluestem hay from a known source, and that proved to be a good move, since it's proved to be very helpful. I'm going to buy another soon to weather out.

The main problem we fight here in Oklahoma is not insects, but the weather, which turns on us when trying to grow things not entirely acclimated to our crazy weather. It becomes man/or woman against nature, as you well know.

Dawn, I have to agree that less is usually always more when it comes to most anything, but if the gov keeps messing around, nothing is going to be safe. In town last Friday, the city truck was 'dutifully' going around spraying for mosquitos. I am SO glad their not doing that here. We've had a full house of all kinds of bugs, both good and bad. Yesterday, a praying mantis was in fighting stance as I was just trying to harvest a little dill in his territory, lol!

Barbara

OK Barbara, Which house in Cedar Ridge? That is an area I know well.

Carol
Taking the first turn going into Cedar Ridge, our house was down the gravel road about several city blocks on the left, garage on the left of the house, kitchen window facing the street. To the opposite side of the house, a little stairs up to the landing by the door.
There used to be a small shed, and garage affair to that side right next to the street. Vacant lot next to the house that would be a perfect building site for someone, with that million dollar view.
You can't see it from the street, but our house was a bi-level, with a finished basement on the lower level, with a covered patio all the way across the lower level. Nice place to sit and view the lake. There was a really nice long walkway, crow's nest, that went all the way down to the rocky shore below, where you could walk down and fish or whatever. When we went by this summer in the boat, it appeared that storms had taken part of that out. It looked a tad run down from when we had it. But, as you know that area is right in the river channel and subject to the most violent storms and high waters at times. I used to love it, because my bedroom was on the upper level with windows all the way across, and I had the best view of the lake, storms and all.
I think the owners still have the house painted white with gray trim. I really loved living there but unfortunately I am violently allergic to both fungus and cedar. Not much better where I'm living now. This really is Green Country.

Barbara

I will have to go look tomorrow and see if I can figure it out. Did you live near a Native American lady named Mae Tubby? I can only think of one vacant lot and it hasn't always been vacant. It had a tiny little house built into the hillside, but when it came up for sale the guy across the street bought it and tore it out. That could be the lot you are remembering though. If it is the house I am thinking of, it sold again a couple of years ago. My grandkids like the dog that lives there. LOL Were you around the corner from the communtity boat dock?

Carol
I didn't know any of the neighbors except a fisherman across the street by the name of Harris. The neighbors next to him, used to shoot all the cats that wandered in the neighborhood, even ours. Harris would just shoot squirrels and trap coons, and my weinie dog, lol!
The vacant lot next to our house used to have a monstrosity of a two story log cabin from hell, that never got finished, so no one lived there, at least on a regular basis. Good thing someone tore it down, or maybe burned it down. It was a real eyesore.
I think I remember the little stone house in the hillside. I thought it was cute. Wonder why the guy tore it out. I think it was right on the curve before you got to the cove and the boat dock. Our house wasn't that close. Like maybe half way from the entrance and sign to the curve before the dock.
It has probably changed owners several times. You know how Grove can be. People come and people go. I was amazed when I was there in July how much it has changed and all the growth toward Honey Creek Bridge.

Barbara

I think you are describing 621 Road, but I will have to go look at the houses. There was a small house down that way with a vacant lot beside it until about 5 years ago. A couple from Joplin bought it and built a new house on the vacant lot after filling in a storm shelter. Then they remodeled the older home and sold it. Then they bought the house down the street that has a huge lot. The couple that bought it were going to make a bed and breakfast so they moved in three cabins then changed the house to a clubhouse affair. Then they split up and she moved there and lived in the "clubhouse", but he got the property in the divorce so he has been getting it ready to sell. He has it looking nice but I have heard it is "very pricey". I think he may own it for awhile because things aren't selling fast here and he has a lot invested. I have heard that he will still be taking a loss, but he doesn't live in Oklahoma.

Carol
I drove past our old place in July. The vacant lot next to it, where the log cabin mess used to be is still there. Nice wide lot overlooking the lake.
By the way, I had to change my user name due to the type of unsavory individual Dawn said her friend was done in by on the old now defunct thread. Therefore, new nic, same Barb. Just so you know. These user names on GW get plastered all over the net I've found.
Unfortunately, it's usually single women that get plagued by these creeps.

Barbara

Barbara,

What an unfortunate circumstance and, yes, it does happen. It does seem to be more of a problem for single women.

Dawn

Barb, I think I was thinking of the wrong street. Was the street still gravel this summer? I was thinking you meant at the Cedar Ridge sign. Now I am thinking that you are turning left before you get to the street with the sign, and before you turn the corner. I never think of that as being Cedar Ridge, but I guess it is. There was a lot of trouble over there a couple of years ago. One old guy got upset because kids in a golf cart kept driving through his yard and messing up us road and just generally being a nuisance. He was right, they were, and they were visiting someone but the golf cart belonged to a local. It so happened that the old guy owned the right of way, so he put up a six foot wood fence all along his road. It still allowed access on the road for everyone that lived there, which was all he was required to provide, however, it obstructed the view of the lake from the houses on the road and they were all mad. He must have spent a fortune on that fence, then he died. I felt bad for him, but also for the people that couldn't see the lake any longer. If he had waited a few weeks the kids vacation would have been over and they would have gone back home. I never drive down that street, but have been over there a few times. I remember that there is a big A frame over there. I am going to take a drive this afternoon and see if I can find it. LOL You have made me curious.

Carol
Things change and I don't always remember, like if the road was still gravel, or even of the Cedar Ridge sign is still there, but the sure way to tell is that our road and house was on the lakefront side.
And yea, I remember old Harris telling me the nasty neighbors were taking pot shots at my weinie dawg, and I'd better put up a fence. So, when I put up a cute oak rail fence, then it messed HIS VIEW of the lake up. Then, he wanted me to take it down and put up a chain link. I kinda wondered if he wanted a lake view proper, that maybe he should have to pay for one. Well, other than that he was a good neighbor.

And Dawn
This was just one of those unfortunate things over the Internet you always think happens to someone else, but threats were made over a period of several years. That's why I haven't actually pinpointed my zone and location. You have cougars. I have a 2 legged predator who happens to be crazy. I'm not hoping he'll find another victim. I just wish he'd somehow get an epiphany that what he does is very wrong.

It's true about single women, but better single and having them stalk you on the OUTSIDE, than married to a maniac on the INSIDE and ending up dead. I said that on a discussion line and some guy said, "You have a lot of cats don't you? LOLOL! It's true, I have 4! But I also have a DS who would fight tigers for mom if he had to, just like I would for him.
Anyways, women need to be careful who they marry, and who they have kids by. Selah

Barbara

Barb,

Do be careful. What a creep you have to deal with!

I hope you have a gun and are prepared to use it without uttering one word of warning. I know from being married to a cop that while a 'good guy' is uttering that "Stop or I'll shoot" type statement, a 'bad guy' will already being firing. So, shoot first and don't hesitate for one iota of a second, then talk later. Protect yourself.

There's a radio talk show host in Fort Worth-Dallas named Mark Davis, and he always says "Ladies, gentlemen, you know crazy when you see it and DON'T MARRY CRAZY. Don't let your children be around CRAZY." I used to think he was being kind of cold and hard, but I know his words come from constantly covering news stories of people abused/killed by crazy significant others...and sometimes the children are hurt or killed as well.

My sister married a crazy man and he almost killed her, so I am well aware of that kind of problem.

Please be very careful.

Dawn

Crazy spouces come in the female gender as well. I know a young guy right now that is fighting for custody of a child and it would be a shame if he didn't get it. He is young and immature, but he is good to the child, while the mother is a kook.

Barb, be careful and be prepared.

Barbara etal,
I've read with interest your experience with the bleach mixture spraying, and replys.
Your results are new growth, blooms, and tomatoes. As strange as it may seem I have the same results as this, but did not spray anything. I did have a pretty bad case of early blight on the tomatoes, some worse than others. So far I have attributed it to just being fall weather, cooler, some heavy rains, and loss of most of the red spider mites etc. I dearly hope for the betterment of all of us that you have hit upon something though.
Best of luck to all,
Bill

A FYI. I sprayed 4-5 plants with a clorox mixture out of a hose end sprayer. Set it at 8 ounces. I can't go by smell and due to sinus and allergy problems I can hardly detect straight. I will say that is too strong and burned the plants some. One more that the others. This late it didn't hurt much and will give me some idea for the future. I would say 4 ounces or less. Jay

Barb,
I meant to say on the last post. Be careful. You can't be too careful. You have something that to me is scarier than the lion. Don't take any chances. Blessings. Jay

Jay
First, I would say that using a hose end sprayer is way too drenching and you really can't control down to a fine, light mist. Sorry you had plant damage, but my inner radar already warned me about anything too strong would be overkill and add insult to injury.

If your sinus's are problematic, then yes, I think you'd have to judge prudently if you were going to give it another try. Less is usually more in almost all cases with anything we use. As y'all know and have probably found out the hard way, that includes fertilizers, and applying any kind of spray during the heat of the day.

I have sinus problems too. In my case, it's not only ragweed, it's grass, fungus, cedar, and you name it. After a heavy rain or during rainy seasons, I can almost count on battling an infection until it dries up.

And yes, I agree about a two legged predator being far more cunning and dangerous that a lion. Plus, lions don't break into houses, and carry weapons.
Barbara

Carol
I agree about crazy not being limited to men where abuse is concerned. I've known a few.

Billy
I don't know where you live and garden, but here where I live is smack dap in a very wet and humid area. The ONE big problem I have is with fungus of various types. When it's dry, I can always water from drip irrigation, but rain usually is not so welcome, as that's when the tomatos start showing fungal problems. Unfortunately we had a really heavy rain during one of the hottest parts of the summer, and it was humid city for quite some time.
I agree that the cooling off period has been a blessing for all of us and our plants :)

Dawn
I have to agree with you on protection. I had led a very sheltered life until DH died, and it has been an uninvited problem ever since. Predators seem to have an inner sense about seeking out single women to prey on.
My girlfriend in Wyoming had one seek her out due to the obituary in the paper when her husband died. He turned out to be a very charismatic but dangerous con man who was an ex-con that had just gotten out of prison, and was looking for an easy score financially.
DS and I had a discussion about protection last night. Reading about the family of 5, including the mom and dad killed in Illinois leads us to believe that people are getting crazier and home invasions are on the increase. My doors are locked at all times when I'm inside. We live in the county and it would take way too long to expect help from the law, and these criminals know that already.
After what I've already been through, I will be careful. I watch my surroundings at all times, in or out of the house, on the highway or whatever.

Barbara

Barbara, It's not fun to have your own personal terrorists, is it? That is really what terrorism is all about, just to make you live in fear.

Carol
Just considering the way the Internet works, and cyberterrorism, back in the Old West, a nutcase had to travel a thousand miles on horseback to bug somebody. Now, all they have to have is a computer and Internet service.
But it has happened that even a cybernut, if he gets obsessed enough, will travel the distance IF he knows where you live.
I kind of wish I knew of a website that had some specific police instructions for women concerning self defense. Surely, there has to be one out there somewhere along those lines, to avoid the kind of panic that caused Dawn's friend to make the wrong move and loose her life because of it. My feeling is that she should have stayed right in her house, and prepared to defend herself.

Barb

Barbara,

I keep the doors locked at all times too and several loaded weapons around. Well, when the 2 year old granddaughter is here, the guns are locked in the gunsafe, although I still have pepper spray up high out of her reach, but where I can get to it quickly.

And, of course, there's the 8 dogs....three of which have folks convinced they'd kill anyone who was at our place and was up to no good, and 2 of those dogs just might actually do it.

I was stalked by a crazy man (a stranger) for about 6 months when I was 19. He called me and he followed me around in his car. Once I parked at work at 5 a.m. and got out of my car, and he pulled up beside me in his car and started to get out. I got back in my car, sped to another location and went inside and called the police. (Yes, this was way, way, way before cell phones!) Finally I moved away and changed everything....different city, different apartment, diffferent roommate, different job, etc., and he didn't find me after that but it was a truly horrifying experience.

I agree that Karen likely would have survived if she'd stayed in her home instead of trying to make a break for freedeom. She did everything right, except that, and she paid for her mistake with her life.

I think it is really hard for us to know what a crazy person would do, so all we can do is try to be ready for anything and be prepared to protect ourself.

There is a lot of evil in the world today, and I think a lot of these people are fueled by drug addictions. Tim always says "Never trust anyone" (in terms of someone appearing at our home) and I know that is true. When someone knocks on the door, I do everything but threaten them with a gun. Heaven help any solicitor who knocks on our door because I am NOT at all friendly.

I've been in the kitchen making bread-and-butter habanero peppers. They are so hot that I don't know if anyone will be able to eat them....but I can open a jar and throw the peppers in someone's face if they are threatening me! I'm fairly sure these things would deter any 2-legged predator by burning the skin right off their face.

Be safe!

Dawn

Dawn
That was truly a hilarious mental picture. I can just see the headlines now, "Love County woman deters home invasion attacker by throwing a jar of habanero peppers in his face". "The perpertrator has been arrested and charged with breaking and entering, and is now recovering in the burn unit of a local hospital." LOL LOL!
Seriously, someone would be making a grievous mistake in judgment in picking your house to attempt a home invasion. LORD help the man who interferes with pepper jelly making in progress!
All joking around aside, we are living in perilous times in more ways than one. The news is full of this sort of thing. Whether one lives in the country, or a city apartment, you have to be careful. It still amazes me how many girls and women put themselves in high risk situations, apparently oblivious to potential danger.
Because of this, and the experiences I've been through, I've learned to be very careful about who I allow into my home, and personal space.
I did find a good website by the way. Personal protection carries with it a great responsiblity, and is not to be taken lightly that's for sure.
My motto is prevention being the best defense, and making your home safe and very unnattractive to criminals.

Woman with lots of cats LOL,

Barbara

Barb,
I like to try new things this time of year. I pick plants that either have quit or the fruit won't make it to experiment on. I like to use a hose end dial sprayer. I feel it will work. I will just have to determine the proper rate and that just takes time. I wasn't too far off. Only burned one real bad. The others didn't burn as bad. The one did have two nice ones on it but feel they will mature. The vines are ok. The only way you learn is by experimentation and mistakes. Have a safe one. Jay

Y'all be sure to remember next year that plants burn more easily at higher temperatures too, so sprays that don't burn at 80 or 85 degrees may burn foliage when temperatures hit 90 or 95 or higher. That's one lesson I learned the hard way with various organic sprays (peppermint soap, neem oil, garlic-pepper tea, etc.) when we moved here.

People in cooler climates or in climates with less intense sunlight can spray some sprays at higher temperatures than we can and they won't have damage and we will.

I have good luck with spraying stuff on in the evening after the sun has gone down. I think with bleach water, by morning it might be ok. Plus if one sprayed as soon as brown stems and foliage began to develop, the spray would be applied in the interior of each plant, which is shaded by the outer leaves. I think it's worth a try for next spring. There's chlorine in our drinking water and if you store water for emergency purposes, the instructions are for a small amount of chlorine bleach to be added to each container. So as far as being bad for us to ingest, I don't think it's any worse than going to the pool or drinking treated water. If you use one of those vacuum pump sprayers that you can get in a garden supply, it makes a fine enough spray that I think application would be pretty much on the plant and not into the soil. Our City water smells so strongly of chlorine, it makes me wonder if it's safe to use it to water the garden with, and glad that mostly I'm using the water run-off from my down-spouts.

I saw a suggestion for killing slugs in the cabbage bed by sprinkling salt on each cabbage at night, in a book by Ruth Stout. I tried it, and each one of those cabbages got sunburned. I don't know for sure if it was the salt or if it would've happened anyway but I don't think I'll be doing that again.

I bet it was the salt, Ilene, because the salt would have sucked the moisture out of the leaves.

I only sprinkled salt on slugs on the ground in Texas. We don't have them here....or at least I've never seen one in 11 years here. No slugs is one (perhaps the only) advantage of having dense clay that is low in organic matter.

Dawn, When I turn over a rock there is usually an earth worm or a slug, but in southern Oklahoma if I picked up a rock, I had to wear gloves because of the scorpions. I'll take slugs over scorpions.

Carol,

A scorpion got me in the garden about 3 weeks ago. It had been several years since I'd been stung by one and I think I'd forgotten how much it hurt. My finger, and then my hand began swelling (I came inside and took Benadryl for the swelling) and it hurt so much that it was just stunning (I took 2 Aleve tablets for that, and was in misery until they kicked in and dulled the pain). It hurt so much that the first thing Tim and I did was look around for a snake, even though there weren't any fang marks in my finger. LOL

I hate these scorpions. They can really put the hurt on a person.

Dawn

Oh Dawn, I feel for you. They are extremely painful. We moved from Wilson to Lone Grove between my 6th and 7th grade. I had lived in the same house since 2nd grade so knowing that I was moving was kind of exciting so I started packing really early. I had some boxes stored behind a door and I reached down to pick up a smaller one so I could put a large one under it, and a scorpion got me on the little finger. At that time, I had never had a pain that was that bad and of course the only thing we ever kept for pain was aspirin. I remember being on the bed crying with my little finger stuck down in a glass of rubbing alcohol. It didn't help, but it was all I had.

With all of your critters, I think you are smart to keep liquid Benadryl for quick action against swelling and such. I wish I could do that but all the liquid that I have ever seen was red and I think it is colored with Red 40. My reaction to dye is so severe that I can only imagine what a liquid dose would do to me if I was already in stress.

I drank some pink lemonade one night and almost had to go to the hospital and since I hadn't had anything else for hours before, it was easy to isolate. I was relieved to finally find the cause, but I do have to be careful. I read a lot of labels to make sure I don't get it. When it all started, I would have reactions to meds for no apparent reason because the meds were not related. It was driving my doctor and my pharmacist nuts. We finally learned it was the color, not the medicine. I was sick an awful lot of times from food and medicine before I finally isolated the cause. Years before I had spent the day in the emergency room after taking "pink" medicine. They finally released me, never having known what sent me there.

I had to fly quite a lot for my job and I would always take motion sickness meds. I would feel sick, have severe cramps, and more....after every trip. I guess I just thought everyone did. I sure was happy to learn that all I had to do was change brands and I could buy it in yellow. LOL It is a weird allergy and Red 40 is in so many processed foods where you would never expect it.

I have hated the taste of Red "things" all of my life. They tell me that only a few people can taste red dye, but it has a very bitter taste to me and leaves a bad aftertaste. Even before I started having bad reactions to it, I tried not to consume it because it didn't taste good. I always loved hard peppermint candy, but there was only one brand that tasted good to me. I love cinnamon but couldn't stand Red Hots because they were bitter. Of course, I could never figure why other people loved red things that I thought were gross. Turns out they didn't taste that way to others, and I was the weird one.

Carol, Well, clearly I survived the sting of the evil scorpion, but I didn't go back outside and do anything the rest of the day because my finger stayed swollen (for two days in fact).

Your allergy to Red 40 is very unusual. I'm glad you were able to figure out what you were allergic to. I am sure Red 40 is in more foods than most of us can imagine.

I just finished making some jams in the kitchen, and I was thinking how nice it was to have jam that has only fruit, sugar, pectin and lemon juice....no artificial stuff that I can't pronounce and no high fructose corn syrup either.

The older I get, the more concern I have about so many of the ingredients in processed food.

I know I'll never be able to raise/process all our food here, but every little bit that I grow/process/preserve myself is that much less we have to buy from the commercial food system.

Dawn