Got it. "The berries of the smooth sumac can be gathered to make a spice mixture used in the Middle East known as za'atar."

"Edible Sumacs"

You might try Mediterranean Market on May in OKC. I've never looked for it there, but if anyone in OKC has, they would be my first try. I've seen za'atar at Forward Foods on Western in OKC. Plants of the Southwest has seeds of several varieties of sumac if you want to try growing it. Two of them are described as having lemony berries.

Good luck,
Loretta

I've used a number of kinds of sumac seeds to make "pink lemonade." Most have finished producing by now, and the seeds lose their pungent coating after a good rain or two. But you might stake out a stand for next year. I distinctly remember using the seeds from winged sumac. This was also a native American spice.

I have Comfrey in my garden. It's tenacious. But I don't consider it a pest. I could easily dig it up and eliminate it. After all, I deal with Johnson Grass all the time ;)

George
Tahlequah, OK

The true Sumac used in Mediterranean or Arabic spice is Rhus coriaria. The seeds/plants may be hard to find.

I would try the Herb forum here as well.

Susan

Loretta; Thank you so much. I'm wasn't familiar with the stores in Oklahoma City. There is one in Tulsa that imports it, but it is usually stale and that is because someone is always flying back and bringing it with them. Because the economy stinks my own friends haven't been bringing me any. lol

George, that's good to know. I guess if the comfrey were very invasive here it'd be growing all over the place. I'll watch for both varieties next year. Apparently the comfrey has anti-bacterial properties as well as anti-viral properties and so many other uses even as "cowboy toilet paper" lol (I won't be using it for that.) cultivating it is a good idea. I certainly have lots of crappy soil areas where it will thrive. lol

Susan;
I am astounded someone on here knows the actual plant. This is SO helpful.

Thanks to all of you.
bon

Thanks all.

I wanted to post some links for acquiring sumac. This rareseeds dot com lists the Sicilian Sumac Rhus coriaria

This site really does have RARE seeds. Quite fascinating to peruse.

Sorry. This one appears to sell Sumac Shrub of this variety, too.

buyshrubszone dot com

Here is a recipe I found online. Its a blend of various herbs, not just sumac. I imagine you could find the sumac at a Mediterranean or Middle Eastern import Deli/Market.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/zaatar-recipe.html

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 4:07

When my daughter or son-in-law travel to Jordan, I get the real deal on their return. I'm certain the demand has increased in the states, over the years altering the scales, but I always found the sumac in the ethnic stores stale and their handling is questionable, too, as many other imported products, like Tahini, are often recalled.

I find it funny that no Jordanian with whom I am acquainted knows what's in Jordanian Z'atar except Sumac and oregano... lol It's been quite a chore and I still don't know which version the Jordanians use. Online is some suggested Jordanian versions but I don't think any match my ex mother-in-law's version (now deceased). What a chore this has been!

I think the store in Stillwater where my husband picks up the Tahini probably has some. I really would love to have my own.

It might require substitution with staghorn sumac. I did not find the Sicilian version after following those links.

I've also used Staghorn Sumac for lemonaide. It is quite good. I understand that the Native Americans used Sumac berries to flavor pemican.

Also, it's one of my pet peeves that people call a variety of poison ivy "poison sumac." That's so confusing, as they are not at all related, being totally different species with a completely different appearance. If I recall correctly "poison oak" is the very same kind of confusion. There is no true oak which causes rashes in people with a normal immune system. Still, as a kid, I remember classmates frantically telling me not to touch Staghorn Sumac because it was "Poison Sumac" and some solemnly telling me that "this oak tree is poison oak...so don't touch it!"

George

Bon, from what I've read comfrey should not be ingested, althouth it can be used to make a poultice to speed wound healing. And like George, I certainly don't consider it invasive, although it is tough. I've never had it move from where I put it years ago. I did have it die after I transplanted it one spring and didn't water it enough over the summer.

George, I understand your frustration with confusion about poison plants. So many people call Virginia Creeper "Poison Oak," which I've never understood because Poison Oak is a shrub related to Poison Ivy and Virginia Creeper is a vine related to neither. I didn't know people confused poison ivy with poison sumac. Maybe they call Poison Oak "Poison Sumac" since both are shrubs, but as you say, not related. According to the book, "Trees, Shrubs and Vines of Arkansas" by Carl G. Hunter, Poison Sumac is the same species, (Rhus) as the other sumacs. The difference is that the poison variety has white berries and the edible ones have red. Hunter says the poison variety doesn't occur in Arkansas and I've never seen it in Oklahoma either. I have in years past made "Sumac-aid" too. We have a stand down by the county road.

I received some Fragrant Sumac, Rhus trilobata, one ft, tall rooted starts in a plant trade this fall from my gardening friend in Texas. She has it growing wild on her property. The berries are edible. I was really happy to get it and am anxious to test the berries later on. I tried winter sowing Rhus microphylla seeds I got in the mail from PoSW last year and didn't have any success.

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 4:08

George, I want to know how you got the comfrey. I could only find one source for seeds last year and only found them after I had placed an order with that company and didn't want to do another order. Then I read that it was better to buy cuttings or roots, so I have been looking at that possibility. How did you start yours, and was it hard? Carol

Carol, I got mine in a swap with someone from NJ. If you would like, I'll take a look to make sure that mine survived, as I had to transplant it this spring and if it's still alive, it's buried under some squash and tomato vines. If I still have it I'd be happy to send you a cutting.

George

And if George doesn't have it, I'm pretty sure I do. Also Carol, mailed you an envelope today.

greatplains

You're making me hungry. Since we've conversed I'm considering making labneh from store-bought yogurt. I usually make it from home-made yogurt from raw milk. Right now, I don't think I'd care of the milk origins. LOL That is my favorite application of Z'atar; to eat it with lebnah, hummus, olive oil and pita. Lebnah is going to be amongst my stock. It is kept in large pickle-jar-sized glass containers in massive amounts of olive oil in the middle east. It would see it sitting right by the same sized jars of ghee she used for cooking.

I certainly appreciate you asking. Staghorn could do the trick, but I've no idea. I suspect I'll obtain several varieties and check out the differences.

In a way, I feel terrible for being so picky but I really want to surprise my daughter when she visits next year. Would be awesome. I think I'm trying to one-up here, too. She's so stubborn about that part of her heritage. I get jealous. Our gods collide. It's food that keeps us bonded.

Even though it's easy to make, many have asked me to make hummus. I'd come home from work and find grocery bags-full of lemons, canned chick peas and garlic hanging from the posts of the fence line with their number attached and a demand for me to call when available for their consumption. LOLOL

I could make them a batch with too much garlic or too much lemon and they'd never know. I would and my daughter surely would if the Za'tar weren't true to original. If I make it as Um Mow'ariah did, I'm sure to keep them coming around more often with that precious little grand child of mine.

... is good, isn't it? All natural. Healthy and just down-right yummy!

Does anyone know which version of sesame is grown for hummus? I have read the sesame crops for oil-extraction are bitter-tasting. Certain extraction methods cause a bitter taste, but the bitterness is more likely attributed to the variety of sesame seed.

bon

I'll just ask and anything I find out, I'll pass on.

Have you ever had the fresh made Leban yogurt, fried bread and warm syrup? I get these flavors in my head and I know exactly what you mean by missing that taste. Nothing else comes close.

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 4:10

Oh mah gollies. FRESH. My brain scrambles thinking a day might come and I cannot receive fresh lemons. If I had a place to grow a lemon tree, I WOULD. If I could afford it and an entirely different building were needed to grow lemons, you'd see me in the back yard swinging a hammer. So much lemon is needed for many Mediterranean dishes. But cannot even afford gas to get out of this little town, much less visit OKC. Heck, I couldn't even return to the neurosurgeon's office for routine check ups after cervical discectomy beyond the two-week checkup.

Poverty stinks that way, but it was the wonderful Arab women who showed me life away from American conveniences and the then-surreal concept of using fresh vegetables, spices and herbs which, eventually, taught me how to eat well and spend less. Funny, thinking back on it. I thought fresh was only for celebrated restaurant chefs. LOL I never knew what real fruit resembles in flavor until I ate them in Jordan. Figs right off the tree were like jelly. Grapes were everywhere and that's in the middle east with a hazardous climate!

Maybe when forced to travel to OKC I'll get a chance to stop by St. Elijah's. Sounds like a wonderful group of people. l must return to Dr. Hisey, eventually.

Those confections do not sound familiar. And boy, that bread sounds like something to try !! And I can hardly get basic white bread in an edible fashion lol I gave up on making pita. The taste was awesome, but I nearly destroyed my old oven. Instead of breaking down completely, it began shutting off at temperatures over 350ð.

I used to buy fresh pita from the ethnic bakery in Tulsa, Shwakat's (I think it was). Grocer-bought doesn't hold a candle. I resorted to making flat bread or tortillas in cast iron skillets. I'm trying to convince my husband to build me a Cobb oven next year so I can have my pita!

And you know those spinach or Z'atar bread pockets they make? Don't get me started......

bon

bon, I have been looking online and there are web sites that recommend the local types Rhus glabra and the Staghorn types for making za'atar for Middle Eastern recipes. It would certainly be worth experimenting and tasting especially since you have a certain flavor in your mind. I would probably be less discerning being a non expert. It looks like it might a bit late to be gathering berries on some types but its worth checking. They say do a "lick test" for tartness and never collect berries right after a rain. I've seen plenty of it growing in the wild around here, especially noticeable when the leaves turn red like they are now, if they are still hanging on that is. I think I'd try locating some and digging one up dormant this winter and just planting it rather than messing around with seeds if I wanted to grow one. Its an attractive plant massed in I notice.

Now that you have brought this up and got me thinking of it, I am very anxious and curious to see what the ladies say about it, I wonder if they will snub the local berry idea or if they have been on to this source for years now? If they look down on it, I'll know in two seconds. I will certainly report back. I should know something this Sunday. Stay tuned.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://the3foragers.blogspot.com/2011/07/foraging-edible-sumacs.html

Are you close to Tulsa? Sounds like you are not anymore. Its just that I think its larger cities like this is where you'd find the import stores.

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 4:12

And bon, you want to hear something really pathetic? I have been tasting za'atar for 20 years now and only JUST today found out, because of your post, that it has sumac berries in it. How's that for ignorant?

Here is what the Lebanese za'atar flatbread looks like, I personally like it even better than the baked pita chips. Below is a link with a recipe.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.thekitchn.com/flatbread-recipe-manakish-zaatar-recipes-from-the-kitchn-178416

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 4:11

Sorry to hi-jack your thread Bon. Comfrey is called knit bone for it's medicinal uses, but I want it because it is a dynamic accumulator.

soonergrandmom, you're fine! hehe

GP

I'm smack in the middle between OKC and Tulsa. Believe it or not, Sumac isn't but a small portion of its recipe, but absolutely essential. I only recently discovered the fennel pollen. Interesting, isn't it?

I gotta do some controls and have fun with these.

It looks like you also need Origanum syriacum (called wild za'atar or wild thyme). Checked around, Johnny's Selected Seed carries it. It also looks like this is what they actually call za'atar. My education is increasing.

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Thu, Nov 28, 13 at 3:26

I did. not. know. this. Incredible. Will I ever get to the truth? ROFL

also known as biblical hyssop.

and it's endangered (in conservation). All the more reason to grow it.. lol

Your picture just showed up. Yum! I've had this on one occasion when visiting a small village, Kafrenjeh. Usually, those I knew would bake them in home made pita pockets so the kids could tolerate the herbs better.

This discussion is so fascinating! I love "high culture." By "high culture" I mean a culture that has accumulated much knowledge, person to person, not just in some repository. And that knowledge, like these foods, would take generations to recover if lost.

Carol, what's a dynamic accumulator?

George

Looking at the name of the plant prompted a search for Syrian Oregano which brought up MUCH more information. Now I know why I'm confused:

"...each [Mediterranean] country has a distinctive style of Za'tar, and each family develops its own special blend. Various mixtures are sometimes marketed as "Za'atar". Thyme and Sumac is a common version. Another is: Thyme, Salt, Sumac and Toasted Sesame. Yet another is: Thyme, Sumac and Summer Savory. A melange of Marjoram, Sesame, Sumac, Salt is also called Za'tar.....:"

The piece also reviews the term "Z'atar" which is a misnomer when used with a broad brush to include the oregano and/or the herb mix. Also, marjoram is often confused for this variety of Oregano, another catalyst to confusion. Like George mentions, it's just down to knowledge passed from generation to generation. Would be funny if I ended up being the only one producing it. Ha! I can hear it now. "Yeah.. after Om Mowariah passed away, nobody was making it except Sophie's mom and well ..... [censored for political correctness]" ROFL

So, GP, the ladies will tell you what they know. I need to find out what Om M'awriah used. We know she grew her own ingredients. Problem is, it's one of the males who would know and that's off limits. Maybe my son-in-law can find out for me.

pdf excerpt on Syrian Oregano taken from Living with Herbs, Jo Ann Gardner, Country Man Press, 1997; ISBN: 0-88150-359-2 where the author lists several common Z'atar recipes.

Many squabbles have probably erupted over the centuries over the proper ingredients and ratios. I imagine its a personal thing that varies from one country to another and from one family to another.

We drove to Ponca City today and there were lots of Sumac shrubs with berries growing here and there, no leaves left but lots of berries and they were very easy to spot even at 70mph. Some were dense purple clusters that appeared to be on plants about shoulder high, some looked around knee high and others had berries more dispersed on the branches instead of in clusters. I think I saw three different types of Sumac. Lots were along fence lines which is not surprising but for the most part, they were growing in patches like low growing groves of shrubs. Once we passed Stillwater where the land flattens out with less trees, I saw fewer of them.

The dormant prairie grasses are really pretty right now especially compared to the last few years with the drought.

Huh! I thought I saw some out along the dirt road ditches in the rural Stillwater area, but it was earlier in the year and I couldn't tell if they were black walnut saplings from my distance. I'm still not very good at plant identification. I only started doing so recently. I keep looking.

George, my understanding of a dynamic accumulator is a plant with deep roots that mines minerals from the soil and stores them in it's leaves. By cutting leaves from the plant and using as mulch you have brought micro-nutrients from deep in the ground and made them available to another plant, such as a fruit tree. If you grow comfrey near the tree, you can chop off part of the comfrey leaves and drop them around the tree to improve the growth of the tree. Sort of like fertilizing and mulching at once without having to haul in anything to do it with.

It has long been known that legumes set nitrogen for other plants, and work with the bacteria in the soil, but now there is a good deal of research and information being shared about how trees interact with each other through a fungi net underground. There are several videos available on line and I have linked one below.

I have become very interested in the things that Mother Earth seems to do to try to heal herself. For instance, if you have a compacted lawn, dandelions show up. They have roots that go deep and start to open up the soil. I have watched videos lately that show areas in the middle east that have had plants come back that they thought were extinct, and the only action has been to fence off the area from the grazing animals.

I seem to have changed the way I look at many things, and am learning that there are a lot more things we can do to help our earth function better. When you have 30 minutes to spare, watch this documentary by John D Liu. I'll bet if you watch it once, you will watch it more than once. It is thought provoking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iJKiFSQLn4 .............Mother needs a little more help from us.

Here is a link that might be useful: Suzanne Simard

I just did a general search for a suggestion planting for erosion control at the bottom of my garden slope.

Sumac was the first suggestion. LOL

Then what I saw in the rural area was, indeed Sumac. I'll go on a hunt the next time we are out that way.

Thanks, George

Bon, I asked the ladies. The word poison was used and the look on their faces told me before they even started talking. They buy their spices from Mediterranean Imports and I get the impression that for them to consider it authentic or good enough it simply must come from "over there".

I asked about the Wild Thyme and got confused looks of not knowing about it and not much interest either. But, these people are not gardeners, gardeners think differently.

Anyway, if it was me, I'd definitely be growing my own Wild Thyme and I would also sample the local Sumac berries, but hey, I'm just stubborn and adventurous that way. Besides, I think it would be downright dumb and probably snobby not to at least try them. Who knows, there might not be any difference in flavor and those just might pass inspection with "an expert". How can you know unless you try?

Here is a link that might be useful: http://medimportsokc.com/

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Tue, Mar 4, 14 at 4:14

I got such a giggle from your post. I hope it didn't mar your relationship. They really can be snobbish. (I'm giggling,here.)

But now you know what I'm referencing. hahaha

I'm diverse and I'll probably try the local varieties while continuing to dig for the Syrian/Sicilian sumac and the original recipe.

The tittle (diacritic/apostrophe) signifies the letter 'ayn or ein in Arabic which has a distinctive sound common in Semitic language including ancient and modern Hebrew. It's sound varies not only by dialect but nationally and regionally. Za'atar is one of the few words (I know) utilizing the letter Zayn which is not a soft 's', but mimics a hard 'z'.

And I could be wrong. I only understand Jordanian slang. Arabic is an etymological nightmare. They say Chinese is the most difficult language. I do NOT want to find out. It's probably a cyclone of confusion.

But Arabic food is awesome. Thank you for asking the gals. I apologize if that pitted you into an awkward situation.

Bon, It didn't cause any distress on my part.

This post was edited by GreatPlains1 on Mon, Dec 2, 13 at 13:02

Well, to be fair, this type of cultural myopia is one reason social traditions are long held... stemming back to George's remark. It's the same that compels Mr. Cook to continue producing his particular variety of okra.

While born of a seemingly ruthless stubbornness, it is essential to many a society's foundation. I can't blame them. Social and cultural myopia forged some of the globe's best variety of plant species.

So good, in fact, little 'ol me would scour the internet and every resource to find some of them! I'm forced to piece together what my grand parents did to survive the depression. And from what I hear, I'm lucky to have that.

I say "kudos" to your friends!

Even if I were to gain some Sicilian Sumac and some Syrian Oregano, my soil is different. That taste would probably be different. Amazing, really.