Saturday, when we were coming back from getting the sheep, it was getting late and we were starved! The only place we could find to get food was a McDonald's. Well, I should know better, but we were really hungry and Jerreth gets into blood sugar issues. So, we stopped and bought a hamburger for each of us (3), a drink and a fries for each. The bill was $17 [SEVENTEEN DOLLARS]! Yikes! It kept anyone from getting light headed. But that's about it.

That night, after a good day of work, we sat down to a home grown meal of barbecued goat ribs, sweet potatoes, corn bread and home canned beans. It didn't even occur to us, until the next day, that the only things we hadn't produced ourselves were the barbecue sauce, some spices, some wheat flour in the corn bread (along with the salt, butter & bicarbonate) and some grape juice. Even the jam on our corn bread was home grown. We also had home produced goat's milk with our dinner. Now that was a meal!

Now, I'm sure that the food at our place was much better than McDonald's. But I also think it tastes better when you produce it yourself.

I'll look into Agastache.

George

George, I guess McDonalds must not have their dollar menu any longer. I stopped at KFC and spent about that much on three chicken dinners. I guess I shoulda got that $10 bucket they talk about.

Hey Southern, do watch that cat bite. I was bitten by a neighbor's siamese. It was wierd, she was always winding herself around my leg wanting to be petted. I guess I didn't pet her quick enough or something because she grabbed my hand and sunk a fang down into the back of my hand right between the index finger knuckle and the middle finger knuckle. Before I knew it, it was swollen as big as a golf ball there. Went to the doctor, who chewed me out for waiting that long, but with medication I got better. I'll always have a scar. Unfortunately, the neighbors "took the cat for a ride". I wasn't happy about that. Now another neighbor's siamese cat is hanging around on my front porch. I'm careful with her, and frankly, I don't trust siamese cats anymore.

Dawn, I'm asking Santa for an electric grain mill but I don't think I'll get it because we all agreed not to do gifts this year. DD has lost her job at Dish Network and DS seems to always be strapped for money this time of year. Jesse the same as doesn't have his job because he is almost never on the schedule at Braum's. And the other DGS, Jake, has never held a job and seems to be reluctant to do so, even though DD, whom he lives with, is making threats now.

Wouldn't that be great if we all lived in the same neighborhood? I'd love it.

My grandmother grew up in Arkansas. Her dad called himself "The Arkansas Poet". He wrote poems and sent them in to the Gentry newspaper. I went to a research library in Jeffersonville where they had some issues of the paper on film and printed off quite a few that he had written that I had never seen before. I really love the scenery in Arkansas.

Dawn, thanks for the kind words. My latest project is that I'm collecting leaves. I've got probably twenty big bags of them in my back yard right now, after having run over about that much with the riding lawn mower and putting them in the compost bins and all over the tops of my raised beds. My neighbors, I think, are starting to think retirement is addling my brain. LOL They can't set bags of leaves out on their curb without my coming to their door asking for them. If they're not home I just load 'em up! I'll tell them later. I'm trying to get some cow manure and thought I had some arranged, but it fell through. I have several people asking around for me though. And I guess the rental house is going to set there, winterized, till spring. I will not pay to have it heated all winter and there's just still so much to do. DH had some kind of a "spell", the doctor thinks might've been a seizure, and we're waiting for test results, and DD is keeping her insurance because they approved her gastric bypass surgery, so that happens on Jan 8. Yesterday was warm so I went over and grouted the tile in the bathroom but my back was killing me all night and so I didn't go over and do the kitchen today, though I should have. We will not be having many more warm days. --Ilene

I'M FINE GUYS...

I should make it clearer what happened. I'm not sure what made my cat turn on me, but when he did, he did it big time! I couldn't get away from him, he was following me down the hallway, attacking me. It wasn't just one bite. I'm NOT SURE how many times he got me, but I've got 32 puncture marks on my hand, shoulder, leg, ankle... and my foot is messed up the most. I was using my foot to block him. My HERO 15 year old son came to my rescue, throwing a blanket over the cat and subduing him. We ended up having to have him put down, which breaks my heart. I raised that guy from a kitten... BUT, I know I couldn't have him anymore. I also have a three year old son, and there's NO WAY I'd have a cat like that in this house.

The doctor prescibed me a strong antibiotic, and was SHOCKED at how chewed up I was... ha, ha! He ain't never seen anything like it. There was no fear of disease, he was a total inside cat and we give our animals the proper shots ourselves. The most swelling and ugly redness I had in my hand is going away today... and I can use my hand much better now. When it's all said and done, I've got one heck of a story to tell people!

George, THANK YOU for directing me to this forum... I'm learning so much by just listening to people talk (and looking up some key terms with Google). I LOVE goat meat... I wish we didn't live in the middle of town, I'd have animals myself. Someday me and my husband want to have 40 acres in the middle of nowhere, with our house situated right smack dab in the middle of it! THEN I'll have my proper farm.

Thanks again for the concern and the education everyone!

Ilene,

Today we got Taco Bell for lunch while shopping in Ardmore, and even though the prices haven't changed, the portion sizes definitely seemed smaller. Sneaky.

We agreed we wouldn't do gifts this year either because we just spent a few bucks turning the spare bedroom into a home gym with a nice weight machine and treadmill. Then, while out shopping for gifts for next week's fire dept. Christmas party, DH says "well, of course, we have to get each other a few gifts....." So, apparently saying "no gifts" doesn't really mean "no gifts" in our family. LOL

Shredded leaves are what helped turn my thick, heavy, slow-draining, horrible red clay soil into decent veggie garden soil, so I understand how valuable each and every bag is.

You certainly have your hands full, family wise. I do hope you'll keep us posted on DH's condition and am also hoping the "spell" was not a symptom of something major. (Sometimes, you know, it can be really hard to pinpoint the cause of such a spell.) My sister had lap-band surgery and lost a lot of weight, but has since regained a lot of it. I hope your daughter has better success with her gastric bypass.

I hope your back is feeling better soon.

I agree that our warm days are becoming more and more rare. It was 62 degrees here at midnight--our high for the day--and currently is 31 degrees with a wind chill of 19. Brrrr! Nothing falling from the skies, though, at least not in the way of moisture.

Southern,

I feel really bad that an animal you raised and loved turned on you that way. I wonder if it had a stroke or brain tumor or something? I know putting him down was the right thing, though, because you couldn't take the chance he'd hurt someone again.

I'm so proud of your SUPER son. What quick thinking and action on his part!

Hoping for very quick healing for you!

Dawn

Southern,

Our cat, which went berserk, had been run over THREE times. We lived on a little dirt road about a mile down from a hnu village, in Hidalgo Mexico. Those folk were MEAN. When they saw an animal in the road they'd hit the gas and try to kill it. Each time we nursed him back to health. Cats truly do have 9 lives. On top of that we suspect that some neighbor began tormenting the cat whenever he wandered from our tiny little yard. Anyway, one day our youngest was climbing on the wall in our front yard. When she started to let herself down, and was hanging there by her hands, about to drop down, that cat ran along the top of the wall and attacked her. She dropped and ran and it ran after her. My wife kicked it back from our daughter and it went after her! The ladies ended up shutting themselves in the house with the cat outside. Our son, then age 12 came home and the cat met him in the front yard. It came running at him and attacked him. He beat it off and drove it away with his sling shot (he was a crack shot). When I came home I caught the cat, which was acting okay by that time, and took him to the vet. I just told the vet what happened and said that I didn't want to see it again. I've always suspected that it developed some pressure on the brain due to all the injuries it had suffered.

Once an animal acts like that it would be insane to keep it, especially if one has small children.
_________________________

I've been collecting bags of leaves this fall, as many as I can. After three years of working this rocky clay there are now parts of the garden which are easy to work. I'm sure that 90% of the change is due to rotting compost.

George

George, I just love leaves. They make great mulch, they don't emit anything that retards seed sprouting when they decompose, like wood chips do (anyway I don't THINK they do...... do they?) and they look kinda nice, all chopped up. They hold moisture in better than anything I have used.

When chopped up and mixed with our black gumbo clay soil, they really help to loosen it up. I'm blessed with a lot of trees in my neighborhood and with neighbors that just laugh when they see me hoisting their bags of raked leaves into the back of my pick-up. ;) (plus I get a lot of free leaf bags that way! If they ask, I'll return the bag, but nobody has asked yet.) I do have one neighbor that would probably call the police if she saw me taking anything off her curb, but she has so many dogs and so much trash in her yard that she doesn't clean up after that I would have no desire to take her leaves, even if she did rake them.

The raised bed that I have had the longest has wonderful loose, loamy soil now. I really enjoyed digging the sweet potatoes out of there last fall.

This last summer I noticed that the tiller doesn't seem to work the soil very deep. It's a good brand but my son's been running it for me because it's so hard for me to handle. Maybe it's in the technique. It's funny that I have noticed so much more this year than I have in the past. I was working full-time then and I guess you could call me a "half-fast" gardener. LOL I'm sure there were a lot of things I never noticed before. I think next spring I will dig with a shovel. I will have more time to prepare the beds before I need to start planting, unless my back goes out again.

Ilene,

One of the thing that fascinates me about leaves is just how many people see them as "useless" and throw them away. (In fact, they are paying to have them hauled away, aren't they?)

For as far back as I can remember, certainly back to my elementary school days, my dad raked up all the leaves he could and put them on our compost pile, and that was way back in the 1960s. When I met DH in the very early 1980s, I was shocked to learn that in the part of the country where he grew up, they raked up the leaves in the fall and burnt them to get rid of them. I was just appalled at the wastefulness of it.

Another fascinating thing about leaves is that they not only improve the friability and texture of your soil, but they also put micronutrients back into the soil at the proper ratio. With commercial fertilizers, you have to be careful to buy an organic one that has the major elements and micro, or trace, elements in the proper ratio. With leaves, the nurients already exist in the proper ratio. How wonderful is that?

I double dug my beds in Texas to create really loose friable soil, and also double dug some of the beds here the first year we built them, but I do not routinely double dig. I do think that the deeper you dig, the better for the plants, but I am not willing to put in that much digging time every year.

Most rototillers do not go as deeply as we'd like. In our small band of sandy soil, though, which is very loose, almost pure sand low in organic material, the rototiller will dig itself down so deep in the sand that you almost can't get it out of there. I do keep trying to increase the organic content of that sand, but the heat seems to eat the compost faster than I can create it and add it to the sand. Without all the leaves, I wouldn't be able to make enough compost to improve the sand at all. The first year here, with only a very small amount of organic material added to that sand, I couldn't keep anything in it alive through the summer because it dried out too fast. It is a lot better now, but the plants I grow there have to be pretty drought tolerant.

We generally only use the large, rear-tine rototiller the very first time we break sod to create or enlarge a bed. It is useful for breaking up the hard clay into big chunks of hard clay, but that's about it. After I hand dig all the bermuda sod and stolons from the large chunks of clay, I try to mix in compost and leaves, but it takes a while to get the good stuff to mix with the bad. After a few years, though, the red clay soil becomes brownish-black loam in which just about anything will grow.

I do have a small mini-tiller, and I suppose the proper name for it would be "cultivator". I use it to work last year's mulch and other amendments, including chopped or shredded leaves and compost, into the soil of the raised veggie beds and it is great for that, but it only goes a few inches into the soil. If I want to improve the soil more deeply, I dig in the stuff by hand.

I have acres of leaves to rake, chop, shred and rototill or dig into the garden, but I usually am too busy with house, family, animals and fire dept. activities to start that in December. In January, though, I'll be out every day gathering leaves and putting them where I want them.

I was just outside watering my potted brugmansias, which spend their days on the concrete apron that extends eastward from the barn to form a small patio. They soak up heat from the slab and from the metal wall of the building behind them. At night, I drag these plants back into the unheated but fairly well-insulated barn. All six plants are still blooming, still have pretty healthy foliage and have new leaves continuing to form and grow. I don't think I've ever kept the brugmansias in bloom this late into the year, and I am really enjoying their blooms. When I am standing there with the brugs, I can almost forget that it is December and that we've had quite a few overnight lows dip down into the teens.

Dawn

Techically, anything which decomposes takes some nitrogen from its surroundings. Having said that, I would never hesitate to mulch with leaves. The benefits are just too great. Plus, any nitrogen lost to decomposition, is replace at the end of the cycle (or so I've understood). Wood chips just take too much nitrogen and too quickly for regular mulching in the garden. Yet, if one has a fallow area, in need of improvement, I'd recommend wood chips too.

George

I can hardly believe it's almost Christmas -- and almost the end of another year -- and almost the end of Jesse's next-to-the-last semester! The time has gone so fast since I retired in March. It has been a chore keeping Jesse's nose to the grindstone. He neglects his homework if I don't. He has only been in the "F" range one time this semester. Next semester he will have really easy classes that won't require me to bird-dog him. I'm sure he's looking forward to that, but surely not as much as I am.

I've become addicted to GardenWeb, but I have learned so much! My house needs a good cleaning, the rental house needs to be worked on. There is just so much to do I am overwhelmed much of the time, so I've been spending a lot of time on my two favorite forums.

It is supposed to get to 48 tomorrow and by the weekend, up to 58. I will have to decide between grouting the kitchen tile at the rental house or working in the back yard. I'm starting to dread renting it out. We've heard nearly every "renter" scare story there is -- everything from finding that a goat has been kept in the living room (don't YOU be doing that, George!) to an evicteee setting the house on fire. (shudder)

I hope my romaine and cabbage have made it through this latest cold spell in the cold frame. The cabbage has begun to head up but it's growing slowly. We aren't eating the romaine very fast. But, oh, it is good. If the biggest plant has made it through, I think I'll cut it off and give it to a friend as a treat. I have put -- what else? -- leaves in the cold frame to cover the soil. They keep the dirt off the green stuff and seem to make it warmer in there. Next year I'm going to expand on this winter growing thing, I think!

George,
Our cat didn't have many moments of possible brain damage... hee hee... No, honestly, he just was an agressive cat that went over the edge. It still breaks my heart to think of it, but there was no way after my experience I would have him in this house or risk him attacking another person. SAD... but part of being an adult, I guess... :).

I LOVE how well everyone in this forum gets along. AND I love how long this thread is getting!

Kathy and Seedmama are both going to be sending me some seeds, and I'm so excited to get them! I'm spending my time gazing out the window at my yard, figuring out where things are going to be tilled up! My husband says I'm obsessed! Pretty good thing to be obsessed about, I think. I'm currently raking all my leaves from the big pecan tree into a big pile, and wondering what to do with them! I don't have anything to chop them up into mulch... but I'll figure out something! My pecan harvest has been ABYSMAL this year, which is very dissapointing... the tree WAS loaded with pecans, but the remains of Hurricanes Ike and Gustav messed it up pretty bad. Broken limbs and GREEN NUTS EVERYWHERE!! I guess we HAVE had more rain than most of Oklahoma, considering we got major rain when the hurricanes happened!

Okay, I'm babbling, but I do have a question for the group in general. How do you get started? HA, HA! I mean, start the plants inside or direct sow? I did direct sow some herbs last year, that ended up feeding a little mole or vole or whatever it was! My husband has promised me a "grow closet" for my Christmas present... but we honestly need to do this as cheaply as possible. Thoughts? Advice?

Don't worry about babbling. That's standard for me.

I dump the leaves out of the bags, making a long skinny pile with each one. DH is meanwhile on the riding lawn mower, driving over them. They are caught in the clipping collection bags and we dump them where we want them from there.

I started quite a few things inside, planting seed in late January. Tomatoes, peppers, some Datura, a few other flowers.

This year I'll probably only start tomatoes inside. What needs winter stratification, I'll plant in the ground where I want them to grow. I'll take the bottom off a gallon sized opaque plastic milk jug and throw away the plastic lid, and fasten the remainder of the jug down over the area where I planted, after writing on the outside of the jug with a china marker what is planted there. (I'm old, I tend to forget) Early spring things like peas, lettuce, cabbage, spinach, I will direct sow in early April. The rest, things that need to be planted in warm soil like cucumbers, beans, peppers, gourds, marigolds, morning glories... I'll direct sow after the last frost, about April 20. I haven't found peppers to bear heavily until fall and so I just don't feel there's much point to starting them early. There's too much babysitting, always the worry a late frost will zap them and their production will be affected for the life of the plant, too much struggling trying to keep the bigger plants watered through the hot season.

George,

I know that anything tilled into the soil technically depletes oxygen but do you know what----it doesn't seem to affect my plants at all in a negative way, so I must have plenty of nitrogen in my beds. I rototill all kinds of junk into my soil, including chopped and shredded leaves, composted animal manure and bedding from the chicken coop and guinea coop, partially decomposed finely shredded bark mulch, grass clippings, old, half-rotted hay or straw, etc. I mulch all my tomato beds with pine bark fines or finely shredded cedar early in the season and by fall it has broken down into compost and I till it in. I only put down an inch or so, though, and then as the season goes on, I add layes of grass clippings, hay, straw, etc.

Ilene,

I cannot believe you only retired in March...you have done so many things in such a short time that it seems like it has been longer.

The last of my cabbage plants froze this week, but they were only in a row in the garden and didn't have any freeze protection--I wanted to see how much they could endure before they froze. They had headed up though, and I have harvested all along as needed.

Southern,

Just wait and see how long some of these threads get when we are planning our spring gardens and bouncing ideas off one another....or when it rains endlessly and we are "trapped" indoors.

There are a couple of simple ways to chop or shred leaves and you don't have to have a chipper/shredder to do it. I rake them into a pile and run over them with the lawn mower, with a grasscatcher bag attached, and then take that bag of chopped-up leaves and dump it right onto the row or bed. If you don't have a grasscatcher, though, it may be hard to "capture" all the finely chopped pieces. In that case, you can rake up the leaves and put them in a large trash can. Then, while standing beside the trash can, insert your weed-eater type string trimmer into the trash can and chop them up with it. Or, if neither of those two options is workable for you, you can compost them quickly over the winter and add them to your soil in the spring. Just fill heavy black plastic lawn-and-leaf bags with the leaves. Pack them in really tight. Then, tie the bag securely and place it on the ground. Poke holes in the bag to facilitate air movement and to allow rain to get into the bag. Use your water hose to wet down all the leaves. Pile up the bags in an out-of-the-way place and tell your spouse "These are not trash--do not throw them away". The sunlight heats up the moist leaves inside the bags and, combined with the air flow from the holes poked into the bags, helps them decompose pretty quickly. The method works REALLY fast if you chop them up first too, but still works, just a little more slowly, if they are not chopped up.

For seed-starting, we bought an inexpensive plastic shelving unit at a home improvement store and hung simple shop light fixtures from each shelf. Each light fixture shines light on the shelf beneath it. The lights are attached to the shelves using hooks that DH screwed into the shelves and chains are used to suspend the light fixtures from the hooks. Using the chains gives me the ability to raise or lower the lights. To light up the plants on the top shelf, we hung plant hooks in the ceiling above the plant shelf and suspended the light fixtures from those hooks. We use simple fluroscent light bulbs in the shop light--I don't find in necessary to purchase fancy "plant lights". I start tons of veggie, herb and flower seedlings each year using these shelves. I start seeds in January of most years and keep starting more and more seeds as I transplant more cold-hardy plants outdoors early in the season.

I usually direct sow most herbs, except basil, and most flowers and all my favorite flowers are the ones that reseed themselves in the fall. When starting seeds indoors, timing is everything. You don't want your plants to get too big while still indoors, and you can't transplant them outside until the soil is the right temperature and the overnight low temperatures are staying in the right range. Also, keep in mind that plants started inside must be hardened off gradually so they can become gradually accustomed not only to outdoor temperatures, but to the sunlight and wind as well. It helps if you set aside a somewhat sheltered location where you have some control over the amount of light and wind the plants are exposed to. I usually harden off my plants on a porch that gets morning sun only, and eventually move them out into afternoon sun as they become acclimated.

Ilene, I think we all have our babbly moments. : )

Dawn

On the leaf mulch, I've even had a lazy year here and there and just raked them over the beds and wet them down occasionally over the winter. Then in the spring when I start working the soil around, the composted leaves are worked in. I find they hold lots more moisture than bark mulch. And anywhere leaves are allowed to settle into drifts, by spring you can turn them and find much darker, loamy soil underneath. With a lawnmower without a catcher, I've mowed them right on the bed I wanted them on. Well.. actually you put them slightly to the side and mow, but it works. The weed eater in the trashcan is another excellent way!

I do a lot of winter sowing. Many of the containers I leave outside and just let Mother Nature do her thing. Especially things that need cold stratification. Some of the things needing cold stratification, I'll just direct sow them where I want them and leave them alone. After all, many of these plants managed to do just fine for a long time before man started cultivating them! Herbs I keep going year round in pots inside as well as direct sowing in the spring outside. I also start several things inside. I use to have lots of windows that provided plenty of light for this, but since I moved, I don't have nearly as many windows, so I'm learning to grow under lights.

And in the fall I tend to start rooting many cuttings of things I want to make sure I have in the early spring. These are also done with shelves and now (I REALLY miss my large windows!) lights.

I'm starting to get excited. We're getting to that time of the year! And no, I don't mean Christmas, though I always look forward to that too. :P But the Winter Solstice is nearing and that means it's time to start winter sowing! I usually start in the week following Christmas with my milk jugs and clear tubs with holes drilled into the tops. If you're interested in winter sowing, there is a forum here on GW for that as well :) I'll link it below.

I put in lots of perennials in this BARE yard last year, some of which I wouldn't see bloom until this next year, but between that and daylily and canna seeds that needed the year to grow into tubers, doing my fall cuttings and winter sowing, I will have a beautiful yard this next spring. And I'll have it quicker than most people around here will manage to get a landscaper to put in plants that they will just yank out and throw away after a few weeks.

LOL, and can you believe I still have bulbs that need planting?! Everything from tulips and daffs to hyacinths! It seems sometimes like I'm never going to get them all done! But it's nice knowing that even if I wait til spring to plant some of them, I'll still get gorgeous blooms out of them!

Hehe... see we all get to babbling!

Kathy

LOL, weed-eater in a trash can. Sorta like a hand-held blender wand in a glass, eh, Dawn? Leave it to you to think outside the box -- er -- inside the can!

It was 20 degrees this morning. I think my romaine got zapped. I lifted one of the shower doors and it looked frozen and felt crispy. It's due to warm up to 59 today so I'll uncover everything and take a closer look. Darn!

"I've even had a lazy year here and there and just raked them over the beds"

Uh, guess I'm always lazy! I just lay those leaves out, straight from the bag. If I need bare ground, in the spring, I rake them aside. But leaves do break down really fast once things warm up a bit. I don't have a shredder and don't take the time to shred. Though it is nice to pick up a bag of shredded leaves. So many more fit in the bag that way!

Southern, we have an indoor planter, for starting things inside. It's almost exactly what Dawn describes. You don't need anything expensive. Plain old shop lights (fluorescent) work just fine. One can pick them up, on sale, and one at a time, as the budget allows.

Just beware! One of the most common errors around is to get too anxious and start things too early. You don't want your plants getting stunted and crowded because you started them too early. I really only start tomatoes, peppers and sweet potatoes indoors.

I bet I could start the sweet potatoes in a cold frame, outdoors, and do just fine. I would just have to be careful not to chill them. This year I planted the last row of sweet potatoes on July 18 and still got an okay harvest from them.

These cold/cool months are my favorite time for working the garden and removing Bermuda and rock. Southern, everyone else here probably knows that I work everything by hand.

George

Gosh... I'm still learning... winter stratification, gotta look up that term now!

Dawn,
GREAT idea on the trashcan and weedeater, that's totally doable to me. If I asked my husband to break out the riding lawnmower he'd seriously think I'd lost my mind. And I'm glad a regular fluorescents will work fine for my grow closet. My husband had said that himself... but I have to have confirmation to make me feel better! :)

I'm getting some good thoughts on how to do this now, thanks to you guys! Once I get all my seeds gathered and together, I'll really be able to think about it properly. I am gonna start some seeds as soon as possible. Believe it or not, I'm the head person over the gardening group on my parenting site! YEP, novice ME. I started the group to try to find some people to give me advice... and found a BUNCH of people starting out just like me. ANYWAY... there is one girl who gardens and has for awhile. She's sent me seeds for what she calls "pea tomatoes"... they're small ones. I'm gonna start those and keep them as inside plants, maybe give one to my mom and sister, if they do well!

OH, ANOTHER COUPLE OF QUESTIONS! Of course... LOL!

1. What are ya'll's views on Miracle Gro? I used it last year and it worked GREAT... but now I'm thinking about using the organic Miracle Gro, just because organic seems to be the way to go these days. It's weird, in my area organic means you grow it in manure... I really wonder if the big city people know that!

2. Bugs! Last summer everyone in my area had a big problem with bugs or worms getting their ripe tomatoes. Mine started that too, with a big ol' hole in each one. I went online and found a "recipe" for a homemade bug spray... since I'm finanacially challenged. Gallon of water with canola oil, dawn, a few cloves or garlic and HOT SAUCE! It worked, and I finally got some perfect, red tomatoes. But now I'm wondering, what about the GOOD BUGS that need to be around my plants? Thoughts?? :)

Ilene,

Have you read the book by Eliot Coleman about four seasons gardening? I think he uses high tunnel hoophouses (unheated) plus an agribon type frost blanket row cover over his greens and he raises them in much colder temps than ours. Maybe Santa Claus can bring you a frost blanket for X-mas? The good, heavy duty ones give your plants 6 to 8 degrees more of protection from the cold.

George,

Well, whatever else you may be, you are not lazy! As much as you dig out all those horrible rocks, grasses and weeds by hand.....who would dare to call you lazy? Oh, you called yourself lazy. Well, not to argue with you, but I think you are wrong in this case.....you are NOT lazy.

Southern,

Oh, you don't want to get me started on MG and other chemical fertilizers....and now you've gone and done it! I'll keep it brief and say that, after a lifetime of gardening and going from the whole chemical fertilizer-vapam-DDT-etc. routine so common in the 1960s and early 1970s to the only-organic-and-natural approach of the 1990s and 2000s, I believe organic and natural is better. I generally avoid all chemical fertilizers, not just MG, but will resort to one once every few years if my plants are under extreme duress.

One example of when I used MG a couple of years ago is when heavy rains fell for weeks on end and the tomato and pepper plants were unable to take up nutrients from the ground because their root systems were totally saturated with water. After the plants began showing specific symptoms of severe nutritional deficiencies, I foliar fed them a couple of times with MG. I only used it then, and it boosted the plants and helped them survive until the heavy rains ended. The plants survived thanks to the MG, but didn't really grow until the excessive rain stopped and the soil dried out.

In general, I consider chemical fertilizers to have a steroid-type effect on plants and prefer natural, organic fertilizers when I feed them at all. About the only plants that get actual fertilizer are the tomatoes, peppers, and sometimes the corn. For the tomatoes and peppers I use Espoma Tomato Tone, and for any other veggie that needs to be fed, I use Espoma Vegetable Tone. In general, though, I prefer to "feed the soil and let the soil feed the plants". You feed the soil by adding good, natural amendments to it.....stuff like compost (black gold!), greensand, lava sand, soft rock phosphates, composted animal manure, blood meal or dried blood, etc. Shredded leaves are one of the best soil amendments because they have all the trace elements plants need in the ratio that they need them.

Plants that are fed, and especially if overfed high nitrogen chemical fertilizers, have high rates of foliar growth but also tend to be more prone to disease and pests.

The worms that attack tomatoes could be tomato hornworms, which are the larval form of sphinx moths. Because we love the sphinx moths, often referred to as hummingbird moths, we "distract" them from the tomatoes by planting other plants that they like. And, in fact, I plant "extra" and "leftover" tomato plants about 20' from the garden just for the hornworms. When I find a hornworm on my tomato plants inside the veggie garden, I move it to the plants outside the garden.

If the worms are not hornworms, they most likely are tomato fruitworms, which are the same caterpillars that are referred to as corn earworms when they attack your corn. The easy solution for them (and for the hornworms if you feel you must kill them) and any other caterpillars is a bottle of Bt. Bt is an abbreviation for Bacillus thuringensis and it is a bacteria that only kills caterpillars. Using a carefully-targeted product like Bt enables you to treat your plants for the worms without harming the beneficial insects. I am a HUGE believer in beneficial insects and will not, under any conditions whatsoever, spray a broad-spectrum pesticide that will kill the good bugs. I've spent a decade building a good healthy bug population and there's no way I'm going to do anything to hurt them.

It is possible to garden completely without any sort of harmful chemicals, be they fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides or fungicides, but you have to be careful about "home remedies" that people suggest. Some of them are just as harmful as the chemicals they are intended to replace. In fact, many of the so-called "organic" products are also dangerous and I won't contaminate our property or ecosystem with them either.

The older I get, the more serious I am about gardening with nature, not fighting against nature. I, and many other gardeners who post here, have written extensively about gardening in concert with Mother Nature many times in the past. I'll find one old thread and link it below for you. Expensive chemicals are not necessary and can have harmful and unintended consequences, so why put them right there in the ecosystem where you live and garden?

Happy Gardening,

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Old Post : Organic Pest Management Strategies

I have some Miracle Grow and basically only use it on African violets (1/4 strength). Oh, here's something for you to consider, beware of cheap soil mix, when you start your transplants. Some of the stuff I've purchased at Walmart, even the expensive mixes which say "for starting seeds," have stunted my tomato starts. I've even had plants die after languishing in such poor mediums. I have managed to pull things out of the fire by using Miracle Grow on those poor sickly transplants. Also, here in Tahlequah, Miracle Grow potting soil is the best mix I can find for starting transplants. It never lets me down. So be forwarned!

Last year I got some Sevin dust. I wasn't going to use it. But I finally broke down and used some, sparingly, when the squash bugs began to overrun our squash. But that was the first time in 40 years that I've used anything "not organic." By far, it is better to use organic soil building, rotation and other methods, than to depend upon chemical means.

Regarding tomato hornworms, I would never use a chemical on them. One can cultivate a practiced eye for finding them, and remove them. I throw them to my ducks. When we lived in NJ for a couple years I once found a hornworm with parasitic wasp eggs on it. I left it and within two years almost EVERY hornworm I found was dead or dying from wasp eggs! To me, hornworms are really only a serious consideration until late summer. Then, my indeterminate plants are so large and growing so rapidly, that the hornworms can have their fill and hardly dent my crop. I still remove them, just not as carefully.

There seem to be a growing number of people interested in gardening. Some have no experience whatever. I am happiest when, in any given year, I'm mentoring one or two of them. I wish every gardener would do the same.

George

George, I still haven't found a satisfactory seed-starting medium. I tried Miracle-Gro's seed starting mix and it was 'way too full of peat moss. Hard to keep from drying out, or, at the other extreme, from growing mold.

I had better luck last winter/spring with digging good loose soil out of my raised bed, baking it in a big roasting pan in the oven for 1 hour at 300 degrees to kill weed seeds and insect larvae, and then using that to plant seeds in. Plus it's free, except for the cost of gas to bake it. Makes the house kinda stinky for a little while, though, but, living with two men I've had stinks in the house before! LOL

I don't use insecticides, either. The one exception is that I sprayed Volck dormant tree oil on my fruit trees this fall. Every plum that survived last spring's late frost and then the wind (which weren't many) had a worm in it. And many of my peaches were affected also. The only major infestation I had was aphids on my yard-long beans and a few of my okra. The beans were affected late in the season so I really didn't mind. And on the okra, they were only on a few pods. I let things take their course, like Dawn suggested, and before long I began to see lots of ladybugs.

The only seed-starting mix I'm truly happy with is one that I mix up myself. In the past, though, I have used MG potting soil and been fairly happy with it even though it holds more moisture than I like.

Sterilizing soil is stinky.....but it is only a temporary stink, unlike men who leave recurring stinky smells in the house. LOL

And, I am not saying I never use chemicals, just that I try to keep it to an absolute minimum. For what it is worth, I probably am more likely to use a fungicide or herbicide than a pesticide, though. With fruit trees, especially, there are some problems for which I have not found a viable organic alternative whose performance has pleased me.

OHHHHH, lots of information to process! THANKS YA'LL... I've got alot to go on now, and that's GREAT!

Dawn,

You go on all you want to, I need your babbling!

George,
THANKS for all the information! I imagine in a few years I'll be a bit better at spotting what kind of bugs are doing what in my garden... I'm so relieved to have this resource now to help me get along in my endeavors... You're being a GREAT mentor to ME!

Ilene,
I'm going to be baking some dirt myself now... I think that'll be a good option for poor lil ol me. And the smell can't be any worse than my husband and teenage son! LOL!!!

THANKS AGAIN YA'LL. I've been taking notes in my notebook (I could print all this out, but I retain information better when I write it down). I'm going to the library to look for the books on companion gardening that Dawn mentioned. I've got a lot of studying to do! And I'm still excited about it! :)

Ya'll have a good un. :)

Regarding purchased potting medium: I forgot to mention to beware of purchasing whatever is left on the shelf from the previous season. That stuff has had time to breed fungus, etc. It's quite likely to cause damping off (dead seedlings). Also I think I counted wrong I hadn't used a pesticide for 31 years, not 40. No need to RUSH things!

This coming year will be the first that I'm going to have to spray fruit trees. We have apple, peach, pear and plum; which we've planted since arriving in OK. I will have, at least, to use a dormant spray on the apples. Need to do some research. My dad always did the fruit tree spraying when I was a kid. Plus, things have changed a bit since then.

I have heard that running a few free range fowl (ducks, guineas or chickens) under fruit trees will eliminate a lot of problems with coddling moths, which cause worming apples. We have the fowl. So hopefully we won't have much in the line of worms.

George

There is a product that I use called Tanglefoot. It's a very sticky substance (thicker than peanut butter!) that smells like the rosin my mother used to use on her violin strings.

It is an excellent product to use against bagworms. I had two small pecan trees and lost one after a particularly bad infestation of bagworms (aka webworms). I tried all the 'easy' things -- opening the bag to let the birds get at the worms, tearing the bag completely down, etc., and they just built more. It was like fighting a 7-headed dragon!

Someone told me that these critters hatch in the ground around the tree and climb the trunk in the spring. So every year I go out and paste a ring around the trunk of the remaining pecan tree and I have not had bagworms since then. It is growing so slow, however, that I will probably be in a nursing home before it starts making any pecans.

I don't know if the worms that I got in my fruit last year (and it was the first year for that to happen to me, too, George) would be eliminated by painting on some tanglefoot or not. I probably should try, but I've already sprayed now so I wouldn't know which worked. I've had good luck with Volck spray before, on fruit trees I had before we moved here (which, by the way, the new owners have cut down.) I think Dawn recommends Bordeaux but I couldn't find any of that. I have apple, peach, plum and --new last spring -- Nanking cherry bushes.

Chick, I'm glad you are getting some good out of our ramblings. I have been coming here for over a year now and I have learned so much! I highly recommend going back and reading the old threads, if you have the time. And just remember that we get off-topic a lot here so even if a thread looks like it doesn't have any information you'd be looking for, if there are several posts chances are they're not all about the topic. That's just one thing I love about this forum. --Ilene

George and Ilene,

In your more humid and more moist climate, I think it would be very hard to grow fruit organically because the moisture and humidity are ideal for pests and disease.

I love Tanglefoot! I have used it for many things, and I do think running a band of it around the trunk of the tree helps keep the pests from climbing the trunk. A lot of the worms I see are from eggs laid on the trees or fruit themselves by moths--Susan could probably tell you exactly which moths attack which fruit. So, if you have an excessive number of moths around the fruit trees, I think the only real solution is to spray the plants with Bt. At least Bt is organic. And, no, I don't spray Bt in the veggie garden but it seems necessary some years in the fruit trees.

We have a billion barn swallows in Love County and they like to build their little mud nests on the eaves of the house and garage. Just put a little Tanglefoot in the area where they are building (before they finish the nest and lay eggs) and they get frustrated and go away.

Southernchick,

Sometimes in one thread we roam way off topic and meander from one plant or pest problem to another, so you never know what you'll find in any given thread. That's part of what makes it fun....and so enlightening.

Dawn

We share with the bugs. I don't have fruit trees or berry bushes and doubt that I could ever get any fruit because of the squirrels and birds. Someday I may plant a few things, but I will have to rig up some sort of "fruit cage" to make it successful.

I finally was successful in growing eggplant this year, but only because I made a bag shaped thing out of sheer curtain material. I then planted my small plants in a pot and pulled the upside down elastic top bag over them (using an old tomato cage as support) and left it until they were about 14 inches tall. By that time the flea beetles weren't quite as bad and the plants were big enough to overcome future damage.

I also don't plant corn because I don't want to draw the deer in.

Maybe when I have enough time to really fight the problems, I will plant those things, but for now they are too much trouble.

My plants would probably die before I would spray them with a dangerous chemical. I think I am going to have to use some roundup at some point because of my grass problem, but I really don't want to do it. I don't like to do it anywhere, but especially here where our yards drain into the lake.

I have not had trouble with soilless mix for starting seeds. I use only Jiffy Mix and I don't start any kind of feeding until the plants are several inches tall. Of course, I start my seeds in small soil blocks with only one seed to a small block then put them in a cup or pot with more seedmix as soon they are big enough for me to handle. I probably get 97-98% germination if I am using "reasonable" new seeds. (I have been know to germinate some really old ones)

I keep saying that I am going to get a few backyard chickens, but I couldn't have anything else where I live.

I think what you will find is that all of us garden differently, but we all eat fresh food from our garden. Each of us lives in a different climate as well. I get a lot of rain (this year monsoons, I think) and Dawn has a more desert like climate to garden in. All of us learn from trial and error what works in our area, with our energy level, and our own personal tastes. I am all about experimenting until I find what works best for me, and how much trouble I am willing to go to to grow something.

I start all of my vegetables from seed but have never been good with flowers. I always end-up buying annuals for my yard. This year I am going to try winter-sowing and see if I have better luck. I have participated in several swaps and have many flower seed to try. I also got agastache in the trades, which I have never grown before. George, I didn't get enough to share, but if I can make it grow I will save seeds for you for next year.

Leaves...........in my neighborhood they are everywhere and most people burn them. They stink so badly when they are burning. I have a bin of leaves that is about 6 feet around and three feet deep, plus 4 or 5 huge lawn bags full and I still haven't completed my own yard. Today there is so much wind, that leaves are still blowing everywhere in spite of all of our effort to get them contained.

You will learn many different ways to garden by just asking and also reading the comments from all of these gardeners. Compared to some of these gardeners, my meager garden is a hobby size. I do it because I like to and even my husband sometimes thinks I am weird because I put so much effort and time into it. Guess I just like playing in the dirt, and knowing I can feed myself if I need to. Carol

OH BTW... I think you guys are okay enough for me to start using my real name now... HI! My name is Beth... it's nice to meet ya'll! ;)

LET THE BABBLING CONTINUE. I do realize that everyone's got their own style, and needs in this gardening thing. I just love hearing about it all! I do learn alot by listening to you guys, but I know alot of what I need to learn it gonna happen out there in my yard!

Ilene,
OH GIRL, I know what you mean. Luckily, my husband recognizes the value in what I did last year. He said that I grew about 300 dollars worth of veggies... and that's such a sizable savings for us! With two boys that eat constantly (veggies, yes they eat them), it just makes sense for me to be doing this! PLUS, it reminds me of my wonderful Grandmother who gardened enough for eight kids and was an OLD PRO. :)

It's nice to "meet" you Beth, I'm Courtney.

I started veggie gardening just to have something fun for my son and I to do. Of course I'm obsessed with selecting seeds, starting seeds, planting, planning on where to plant, nurturing without loving them too much, and harvesting at the right time. I can't say I do any of these things well, but each year gets better. My son is obsessed with watering. The last couple of years he pretends that the plants are "fire" and he "puts the fire out" by blasting the poor little plants out of the ground with the hose!

This year, I bought a couple of pails for him to fill and pour on a separate flower bed. Luckily he saw a fire brigade on a cartoon, and it's now become an acceptable way of fighting fire that both of us can live with.

Little man is a very picky eater. Helping me plant seeds, and tend to the veggies has made him much more willing to try them. He now likes to eat HIS carrots, peas, and beans. And he will ONLY eat HIS veggies, meaning if he didn't grow them then they aren't good enough. I am being challenged to grow PB&J's next year... Dawn, got any seeds for those??? LOL

My son and I have so much fun in the garden, he's my bug spotter. We had a great time checking with "The Guard" (a praying mantis) everytime we visited the garden. I hope we have a few more of them next year :)) So far our yields of veggies have been low, but we're getting better. For us, it's more about having fun :))

Courtney

Courtney,

The little guy is always so much fun--you must have a blast with him every day.

Afraid I don't have any seeds for PB&Js. I did read a story once about a "Grandpa" who let his grandchild plant Cheerios in the garden. I don't suppose they grew a good crop of those either. LOL

And I understand why he doesn't want to eat any veggies except his own....I feel the same way, except I will eat veggies I didn't grow, but I don't like them as much. Have you tried taking him to a farmer's market? If he could meet the farmers and talk to them and choose his own veggies, he might be more willing to eat those veggies than the ones from the grocery store.

My "little man" is now a professional firefighter and paramedic, putting out real fires with real fire trucks and really big hoses. So, you see, the only difference in men and boys is the size of their toys! I saw a cute T-shirt I need to get DS and DH. It has a big fire truck on the front and it says "Big Toys for Big Boys".

Dawn

Courtney, your quest for PB&J 'seeds' reminded me of something that happened several years ago.

We were not the only grandparents who adopted their grandchildren in our church. There was another couple and they adopted a girl and a boy. The girl was the same age as our youngest grandson and she had a HUGE crush on our older grandson (still does!) The boy was younger, and he was very spoiled and petulant. They encouraged it. I found it hard to tolerate. No one could play with him, he was always getting "hurt".

But anyway, a crisis hit this set of grandparents. He had a stroke and after months in the Veteran's hospital where he was not very well treated, he died. The grandmother had to travel quite a long distance from here to the hospital and so I would keep her grandchildren. Of course the little boy never liked anything I cooked. He would sit there just smiling at me, as if he thought he was just adorable, and then when I asked him why he wasn't eating, he would politely (?) tell me he didn't like that particular thing. One day I was having a very exasperating day with him AND his sister. He wanted to have whatever my grandsons had and when he got it he didn't want it anymore. His sister was hanging all over my oldest grandson and he was trying his best to be nice about it. This had gone on all day. So at suppertime I decided to serve the kids ravioli (up to this point I didn't KNOW any kids who didn't like ravioli) but of course he didn't LIKE ravioli so I asked him if he liked peanut butter and jelly and he said yes, if the crusts were cut off. So, grumbling to myself I went into the kitchen and made him a sandwich. One bite and he was looking at me and smiling again. "I don't LIKE peanut butter with.....seeds......", he said. (it was crunchy style)

I guess I'm kind of spoiled. My kids weren't picky eaters and neither were my grandsons. They had their favorite things, but they'd eat almost anything I set in front of them, as long as I didn't serve spinach or liver, and I knew better than to go there.

Dawn, I saw a t-shirt that I just loved. It was on a toddler that I saw at Silver Dollar City. It said, "I think my name is "No-No". LOL!

Beth, I'm glad to know what your name is. 'Southerngardenchick' is quite a mouthful. LOL

I couldn't think of a site name when I started on here! On my parenting site, my name is Padme (from Star Wars)... but I didn't want to use that here. Afraid people would think that was WEIRD. :).

So, just call me Southern if you can't think of Beth. :)

Beth

Yesterday my sons tee shirt said "Lead me not into temptation....I can find it all by myself".

Beth - I am afraid we are all pretty "southern" on this Forum. You will see it it what we plant, the food we talk about, and sometimes even when we write. LOL

Ilene - It seems like I should have everything painted by now, but I don't have. We have a man that needed a place to stay several night a week and asked if he could stay here. We agreed, thinking it would be a few weeks, or three months at most. That was February. When we started to paint our house he said he was going to paint it. He painted the main color, but still has not painted the trim and I doubt he ever will.............but he still stays here. Sometimes people just take advantage. We built the space he is in for our family and friends with no plans to ever rent it or have a "permanent" guest. When our family is coming, we just tell him he is evicted for that period of time. My husband loves to help people, but I think even he is getting tired of this.

You are kind people to have taken your grandsons to raise. My best friend was raised (and adopted) by her grandparents. She knows that her life was so much better than it would have been with her parents. They did a great job of raising her and she is a wonderful person. Sometimes grandparents have more patiences than parents.

Dawn - Feels like the Artic here right now. My son and DIL are here from Nigeria. I am sure it really feels cold to them, but my son was enjoying the cooler weather, but this may be a bit cold even for him. We will be in Mexico for Christmas, so I think I can plan on a warmer day. LOL Our roads are very slick right now. Carol

Beth, Hopefully we can remember "Beth".....and it's a lot shorter than typing "Southern" or "Southerngardeningchick".

Ilene, You've raised two families and now that DGS is about to graduate, maybe y'all will get to relax a little more. I know you've certainly earned it.

Carol, Y'all are too kind. We have taken in people twice who needed a home--each time for several months--and it seemed like they were not real motivated to pull themselves up by the own bootstraps and get on with their lives. I am not sure I would ever do it again.

I hope y'all are safe on the slick roads. We went Christmas shopping in the D-FW metroplex and didn't encounter any ice until we were 10 miles from home. Once we crossed over from Cooke County, Texas, into Love County, OK, the ice started falling, but it was very light and patchy on our side of the river. Apparently it is now falling steadily on the Texas side of the river, and there are multiple motor vehicle accidents in and between Gainesville and Sherman. I hope the ice stays away from us.

Dawn

We are at 18 degrees and headed for 15. I think our high today was supposed to be 21 but I am not sure that happened. It was 16 this morning about 7AM. The streets are frozen and slick. My son and DIL have to drive to Tulsa tomorrow so I hope the major roadways are safe.

My older son said it was 31 (south of Ft Worth) and he was hitting a few spots with light rain as he drove home. Seems this cold is wide-spread this time.

I have been collecting seeds so I can try winter sowing later in the winter. Guess that is the extent of my gardening right now. I have been studying tho, and learning about some new plants, and how to collect seeds from various plants. People have been so generous to share their seeds with me.

Hello everyone i've been reading all summer and feel like i know several of ya even though never posted. I suppose southern has sort of inspired me. My wife often jokes i'm adicted to garden porn. I planted my first garden this year and its grown in size all summer still even have a few things planted. We use the excess for homemade canned christmas gifts and its been a favorite amoung friends and family. Next year i want to expand to make salsa and have seen lots of tomato info but i'm looking for a few good varieties for salsa. Thanks any help apreciated.

osgw,
Glad I inspired you! That's pretty neat! As you've read, I'm not an expert on tomato varieties, BUT... I do have a killer salsa recipe using green tomatoes! I'll share if you want!

Beth

ya that would be great. I have not got that far in thinking ahead yet. This year everybody gets strawberry jam, sand plum jelly, jalapenos and bannana peppers. Thought salsa would be good to add to next years gifts.

OSGW where do you live? Climate has a lot to do with what tomato varieties will do best for you. I take it you are in a warm climate since you still have some things going in the garden.

So glad you have enjoyed the forum & welcome to gardening!

George

Hey george i live in southeastern oklahoma south east of Mcalester. Yeah i just have a few thing now still going. Radishes, garlic, lettuces, ruttabaga, swiss chard, kohlrabi? and few turnips left (what i haven't eat yet) everything is mulched heavily was going to do a cover but think i'll try that next year

Carol,

We have made it up to a warm and balmy 26 degrees this afternoon after dropping to 19 overnight, so it is not too terribly cold here.

DS is at work at D-FW Airport and said the roads south of Hwy 183 are a mess, but north of 183 it isn't bad now, although it was still icy during this morning's rush hour.

Some freezing stuff fell along the I-35 corridor north of us, from about the Love-Carter County line northward this morning and there were some wrecks prior to noon. I think it was worse the farther you went towards Paul's Valley.

Osgw380,

Welcome to the forum. We have a lot of fun here, and endless talk about gardening and life.

I'm going to start a separate thread to address your question about good salsa tomatoes and there is a reason for that. In the future, if someone wants to read about "salsa tomatoes", a Garden Web search will more easily locate threads that have the words "salsa tomatoes" in the subject line.

So, I'll go start that thread, and everyone can add their ideas, and, hopefully, you'll get some ideas for varieties you can try for salsa.

Dawn

OSGW, I give jam at Christmas much of the time. I have a Santa Rosa plum tree and those plums make the best jam. I get a lot of requests for that. Didn't get many plums to speak of this year but I had a bumper crop the year before (or maybe it was the one before that) and still have a 5-qt ice-cream bucket full of puree, held in the freezer in reserve! The taste is very similar to Sand Plum. --Ilene

Hey Ilene we also have plum trees in the back yard don't know variety they were here when we moved in. We got started last year when both the two little trees were literaly pulled to the ground bearing fruit. This year i didn't have 1 single plum. I also have a peach tree but have not received a signifcant amount of peaches in my 5 years here. It blooms and gets got in a late freeze every year. Shame to because its a mature tree and appears healthy.

We started given grown gifts and everybody seems to really enjoy it. My grandmother always had a garden so it keeps me connected back home with her. I'm always asking for her advice and recipes.

The sand plums are slightly more tart to me but i think i enjoy the taste even more than the trees variety in the yard.

Also this year i made pear butter off a tree from the yard also. Its absolutey horrible had to through away all of it. Got the recipe off the net. Think i'll make jelley out of it next year.

I've got a recipe for "Pear Honey" that is pretty good. I'll see if I can find it. Have you ever made Pumpkin butter? Or tomato preserves? Another variety of jam that people really like is pineapple banana jam. The only thing is, I don't make it often because I have to buy all the ingredients and I'd rather make jam with stuff I grow.

Santa Rosa plums are red (see link)

If you read the posts from last spring, you'll find quite a few discussions on peach trees. In Oklahoma, we don't seem to be able to get a crop for more than once in every three years because of the dang late frost and the spring winds. This year I had peaches but some of them had worms. I still had enough to can and we are really enjoying eating them out of the jar right now. The flavor is so beyond those slimy things you buy at the grocery store and plus I always pack a lot of them in a jar. It sure spoils you for grocery store canned fruit. I dormant sprayed my fruit trees, on the off chance I'll get peaches next year, but probably just wasted my time. Hope springs eternal, they say, and it's never more true than in Oklahoma in the spring. I got some Nanking cherry bushes from freetreesandplants.com last spring. The bushes did well through the summer and fall. I may get a very few cherries next year, if the weather / birds will allow it. I also was sent some quince seed so I have planted several of them in the front yard. I have had flowering quince bushes before and one of them even made fruit, which I would combine with pears to make jelly. The tartness of the quince was perfect for pears. In trying to get quince bush plants, I stumbled upon information about quince trees, which grow tall like an apple tree, make lovely pink flowers in the spring and quinces the size of pears. So I managed to get seed for a tree from a lady in Kentucky. I hope the seed germinates!

Here is a link that might be useful: Santa Rosa Plums

Pear Honey?...very interesting sounding i'd give that a try. Loved apple butter as a kid but pear but definetely not comparable.

I believe that must be santa rosa plums (fruit is red) interesting site never seen the blue/black varieties.

Tomato preserves thats another new one to me. I did try the jalapeno jelly it was all right and i really enjoyed growing peppers this year so thats on next years list.

I think i read those posts in the spring. Especially intersted in growing rasberries even with the problems i read about. That will have to wait as we are scheduled for another move about a year from now. Back home finally for good.

I'll have to put some thought into cherries when we settle. Wife loves cherries sadly not much else out of the garden though. She liked the black eyed peas so i'm doing more of them next year.

I've had these two recipes for a long time. Bear in mind that the rules for canning have all changed and now they say you should put the jars of jam immediately into a 5-minute boiling water bath. I don't do it, I just make sure jars and lids are boiling hot and after I fill the jar and screw the band down good and tight, I tip the jar a little, all the way around. You can practically watch the lid seal. I've made jam the same way for 40 years and never had a bad batch, but I can't put these recipes here without pointing out that the recipes are no longer considered "safe" by the experts without the BWB. I always add a small pat of margarine (about 1-2 tsp) to my jam before it starts to boil. It keeps it from foaming and that way you don't have to remove the foam, as so many jam and jelly recipes instruct. But if you want you can leave the margarine out.

Tomato Preserves
I used to make this every summer. The flavor is different than one would expect, is delicious on toast, and is somewhat reminiscent of my Grammys breaded tomatoes. Lovely in the jar. Makes good gifts to people who like to try "different things". People who were raised with the taste love it. Others are somewhat skeptical.

3 quarts prepared tomatoes
1 1/2 teaspoon grated lemon rind (optional)
1 teaspoon ground allspice
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon ground cloves
6 cups sugar
Pat of margarine

Wash firm ripe tomatoes. Scald and peel tomatoes. Measure 6 cups tomatoes into a large kettle. Add lemon rind, allspice, cinnamon and cloves. Add sugar and margarine to tomatoes. Stir and bring to a full rolling boil that cannot be stirred down. Then boil hard for 1 minute, stirring constantly. Remove from heat. Pour hot jam into hot jars, leaving 1/4 inch headspace. Wipe rims of jars with a dampened clean paper towel; adjust two-piece metal canning lids.

Pear Marmalade
Im not sure where I got this recipe, but I used it a lot when I was allowed by the people down the street to pick up their windfalls. They were never ripe enough to be good canners, and because they were bruised or damaged by the birds, would not keep long enough to ripen fully. Note: If you like orange marmalade, the peel of the oranges can be cut in narrow strips and included with the fruit.

24 large pears (36 small)
1 #2 can crushed pineapple (about 2 C.)
3-4 large oranges
Pat of margarine

Peel pears and cut into small pieces. Peel oranges and cut into small pieces. Drain pineapple. Mix all together and measure. To each C of fruit add 2/3 C. sugar. Mix and allow to stand 24 hours. Add margarine, bring to boil and let simmer 1 hour. Pour into hot jars and seal.

I can't find the Pear Honey recipe, but I've attached a link that sounds very close to what I used.

Here is a link that might be useful: Allrecipes Pear Honey recipe

Ilene,

Thanks for the recipes! I was all gung ho about canning and freezing, until I picked up a book that scared me to death about all the things that can go wrong!! I also started adding up all the costs of a pressure cooker, and such and decided it wasn't going to worth it! You've renewed my faith in canning again.

Courtney

Courtney, the canning process IS daunting for newbies!

My first and second pressure canners were purchased at garage sales. They were heavy cast aluminum from the 1950's. The first one had slots on the lid that you flipped up screw-down things that were dangling from the sides of the canner. I replaced the pressure gauge and, looking back, it was the most trouble-free canner I ever had, though it was truly ugly and heavy. The second had a rubber gasket and the lid fastened down with about 1/4 of a twist. I had a lot of trouble putting enough muscle on that lid to get it off after the pressure had come down. So I got rid of it and bought a new Mirro pressure canner. It's OK, but nothing to write home about. I have a lot of trouble with liquids siphoning out of the jars. I think it cools down too fast.

Jam and pickles are two things that are pretty easy to can. The old way is that you have your jars full of boiling water until right before you put your product into them, which is also boiling hot. I boil water in a small bowl in the microwave and then drop my flats into it so that they are good and hot, as well. After filling the jar, getting out any air bubbles and wiping off the rim, put on the hot flat and screw down the band good and tight. Then carefully tip the jar just ever so slightly, turning the jar till you've done this all the way around, so that the hot contents just touch the edges of the flat. You don't want to cover the flat as this may cause some of the liquid to escape out of the jar, and this will mess up your seal, your counter and maybe you. You can skip the tipping part, if you have any concerns about it, and the jars will usually still seal.

It certainly doesn't hurt to BWB jars of jam for 5 minutes, immediately after filling and screwing down the band, and then you are within the new guidelines. But when it comes to pickles, that's another thing. A 5 minute BWB ruins the crispness.

Lots of jam and jelly recipes now call for Sure-Gel (pectin), when in truth most fruit has enough natural pectin to make a perfectly good product. Some people say you don't have to cook the jam as long that way and they are always assured of having the right consistency. However, jelly thermometers are not expensive and are a good investment. You can use the 'spoon test' or the 'cold saucer test' instead if you are more experienced. Having to buy Sure-Gel is just an annoyance to me. The only time I use it is when I make banana-pineapple. I use Pomona Pectin for no-sugar or low-sugar jams.

I don't really like to pressure can. I do BWB whenever possible. Tomatoes just become mush when pressure canned. I even tried pressure canning some dry beans because someone on one of the other forums said she did it. It was 1 cup of dry beans in a quart jar, cover with water to soak overnight, then drain and fill the jar with boiling water, process for 90 minutes at 10 pounds pressure. I wasn't pleased with having to watch the pressure for 90 minutes, that's for sure. It's convenient having a few quarts of cooked beans on hand, since a quart of beans is about enough for a meal for the three of us (I also make corn bread and fried potatoes) but I discovered there really IS such a thing as cooking beans too long. The consistency is just kind of "gummy". I won't be doing that again.

Some say using a pressure canner generates less heat in your kitchen. I don't agree with that, either. With boiling water bath, your processing time is longer, but when you're done, you're done. There's none of this "letting steam escape for ten minutes" at the beginning and there's no waiting for the pressure to build at the beginning and to come down at the end. And with a boiling water bath, once you've got a decent boil going you can actually set the timer and walk off to do something else. With a pressure canner you have to make sure your pressure is staying consistent and with my new canner, it's hard to find the spot that is just right to maintain. So I'm turning the flame up just a smidge, down just a smidge. Of course there are some things you just can't can if you don't have a pressure canner. Green beans is one. I use BWB for applesauce, peaches, pears, and tomatoes.

There is also a new rule for tomatoes that says you need to add extra acid for canned tomatoes to be safe. I added a tablespoon of vinegar to each jar the summer of '07 and those tomatoes were so acid I couldn't use them for anything but chili. Maybe it is that some of the new hybrid varieties are not acid enough, but I grow heirloom tomatoes.

Sometimes I wonder if all these new canning rules are a way to force home canners to just give up and buy their food already canned. My dear little 80-and 90-year old friends who live on a farm near me have canned every year since they were little girls helping their mother. They still use the old recipes and techniques now that they used in the 50's. They even make their own ketchup and seal it in bottles with a bottle capper. I just don't understand how it is that something that has been safe for years, isn't anymore.

And, I might add, when we were kids at home, Mom would seal her jam with paraffin. Often we would pry that paraffin off the top of a new jar of jam and there would be a layer of mold, but Mom would just take a spoon and remove the mold and the top layer of jam and then we'd eat the rest! Yipe, I don't think I could do THAT. Mom always said that there was so much sugar in the jam that it was a natural preservative. But I've never seen that in print. And I never seal my jams with paraffin.

But of course anything else that didn't look right was always thrown away. There would be times when a processed jar didn't hold it's seal -- maybe there was a hairline crack in the jar, or something went wrong with the seal -- it happens. Even if the contents looked OK, if there was any 'give' at all at the center of the lid, after the jar had been put on the shelf, it went to the compost. The jar would be examined and if the reason was not apparent, a dab of red nail polish would go on the bottom of the jar. If there was already a dab of red nail polish there, the jar went in the trash, as did any jar that had a nick on the rim. I know of some people that buy new jars every time and I think this is pretty far over the top. I have used the same jars for years and years. In fact some of my jars had belonged to my mother-in-law. I will also use old mayo jars, in a pinch, if the standard screw band still works on them, but not for pressure canning.

I HAVE had food poisoning before -- but it was from a purchased frozen pot pie.

Whatever methods you use, use what you feel confident with, and have fun with it. Jams and jellies are a great way to start. --Ilene

Ilene, thanks for all that info! I'm going to copy and store that in my recipes folder! Jerreth has traditionally done most of our canning. But this year she had a very demanding job, and I found myself doing a lot more than usual. All went well until my very last batch. I tried a short cut. I cold packed my green beans, added water and then pressure canned them at 12 lb. for something like 40 minutes. That whole batch went bad within a couple weeks. Guess I need to stick with a printed set of instructions.

I have serious doubts about the "must-add-vinegar-to-tomatoes line." As I understand it, most tomatoes have about the same acidity. What differs is the sugar level.

I suspect that a lot of these additional directions are due to the lawsuit problem we have in this country. One must make all kinds of disclaimers in order to avoid litigation.

"Results of this process may cause botulism, food poisoning, blood poisoning, infertility, cancer, laryngitis, and the common cold...."

George

...LOL George! Not to mention blindness and impotence!

Here's a link to the USDA folks.

Here is a link that might be useful: USDA Canning Link

Well Ilene... I think you might be on to something. All of the "safety" reasons are meant to scare us newbies and keep us heading to the grocery stores!

Funny how all their scare tactics don't work at keeping people out of teh pharmacies though! George sounded like a drug commercial there for a second :)

Thanks to your encouragement, I'm going to make some jelly next year!

Courtney

Courtney,

When you make jelly, you will say to yourself "This is so easy--why I haven't I been doing this all my life?" Trust me. It is simple. I like to make strawberry jam when the spring strawberries start arriving in the grocery stores in vast quantities. Often, our local grocery stores will have them for sale by the flat or half-flat, and at great prices too. You know it is spring when you can make strawberry jam!

I don't have the patience to grow strawberries here and fight the hungry wild critters for every last one of them. I do like buying them when they hit the stores and the farmer's markets though.

Dawn