The first time to apply corn gluten meal (CGM) is when the forsythia first come into bloom. Then if you think there's a chance of weed seed germinating later in the year, you can apply any time. Apply at 15 to 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. On a Scott's drop spreader, that means wide open and you go over it twice to get a minimum of 15 pounds per 1,000. CGM at that rate is a powerful fertilizer, so you won't need anything else.

Thanks dchall. Is it Corn Gluten Meal or Corn Meal Gluten? And is there a difference?

Will it hurt to apply it before the forsythia bloom? I know that's the first thing to bloom in early spring, but, with often warm days here in Atlanta (68 degrees F today) I'm afraid there could be some seed germination sooner. Also, What to do about the weeds currently in my lawn? Thanks again.

It's Corn Gluten Meal (CGM). "Corn Gluten" being the key here. Corn gluten is a by-product of wet milling process to make cornstarch. It is available as "Meal" (ground) or "Pelletized".

Bermuda should be able to out compete most weed species when maintained properly.

1. Most Important: Water deeply and infrequently with 3/4 to 1 inch of water. (1 time a week in summer)
To determine how much water a sprinkler system is providing, place several coffee cans throughout the irrigation zones to find out how long it takes to apply this amount of water. This is how long your irrigation system should run for each application.

2. I would normally say mow high, but since you have Bermuda mow low and often with a sharp blade. 1/2 to 1-1/2 inches.

3. Feed Microbes "at least" every other month with Soy Bean Meal (SBM) during the growing season. Monthly feedings would be ideal.

With an organic approach you are going to have some weeds in your lawn and thats ok. right? Alot of people have great result with a tool called the Weed Hound, available at the Home depot.

IMO and as you stated the high cost of CGM in your area. I would try the above for the next growing season and see how it works. Let your lawn crowd out weeds on it's own.

Check out this members site. He has a beautiful Bermuda lawn and is 100% organic.

Here is a link that might be useful: Okcdan's Bermuda

I wouldn't put much stock in CGM. Just do what Skoot Cat says. It probably would be helpful to put down ONE-TIME compost at the rate of 1 yard per 1000 sqft to re-introduce beneficial microorganisms to the soil. You just basically dump in various place with a wheelbarrow and use your leaf blower till they disappear into grass.

Another method of weed control to add - spray molasses whenever you spread soybean meal. What they do is help grow bacteria in greater numbers helping soak up excess nitrates which is a form of nitrogen that weeds needs to thrive. You can get unsulfured blackstrap molasses at grocery stores. Get two bottles - one for front and one for back. I use ortho dial mixing molasses with water 50/50 because molasses is a bit too thick and you need water to dilute it to make it easier to get sucked up for spraying. Set spraying rate at 2oz (fill the entire container) and spray the entire yard till you've used up one bottle then move on to other yard. Do this for a couple years. The soil probably will be much improved by then and you won't need to spray molasses anymore.

One more thing. Mow down winter weeds! I don't know why everybody lets winter weeds grow tall and produce seeds!

Thanks all for the help.

I do the mow low water deep and infrequently practices. I'm still concerned about some weeds I have that seem to be perrennial. That's why I'm so concerned. I remember reading about using vinegar if you just have to kill some weeds, what would I do and how? My bermuda is dormant so I'm not concerned about hurting it right now, but these weeds have been there since the summer and are still green, not thriving or growing but still green and thus I believe perenniel.

There are too many to get with the weed hound.

Well, they are just doing their part... improving the soil in a way. They could be gone by next year when the soil is improved. At least that is what I have observed at the park across the street... Last year it was ENTIRELY covered with black medic and i thought they were going to come back every year. They died off when it got warm and bermuda seemed to spread rapidly even though it never got any fertilizer at all. This year so far... black medics are barely visible. My point, you're making a big deal out of it. Just mow regularly, water properly, fertilize with soybean meal every 3-6 months followed by molasses spraying and things should improve.

If you really want to get rid of weeds, use 10% vinegar (with 2oz of orange oil per gallon of vinegar).

"I remember reading about using vinegar if you just have to kill some weeds"

Vinegar is a nonselective organic herbicide. In other words, it will kill grass in addition to weeds. If you choose to use vinegar, you must carefully spot spray your weeds. IMO, using a Weed Hound is faster than carefully spot spraying with vinegar.

-Deerslayer

Whatever. You can't kill dormant bermuda! Go nuts with vinegar...

You're right, it's difficult to kill dormant Bermuda.

-Deerslayer

Thanks all, I will go with the 10% vinegar, that's gotta be cheaper than round up and better environmentally i guess.

Deerslayer, you are correct it is difficult to kill dormant bermuda, but I've learned it is not impossible.

was that 2 oz of orange oil per dilluted gallon of vinegar or 2 oz of orange oil per gallon of vinegar?

Thannks all for your patience with a newbie.

Does anyone know where to find 10% vinegar?

Here's a link that discusses where to buy 20% vinegar.

20% Vinegar

You can convert 20% vinegar to 10% by diluting it with an equal part of water. Remember to always pour acid into water not vice versa.

The Maestro Grow product mentioned in the thread is made from acetic acid (the ingredients are listed). Acetic acid is the active ingredient in vinegar.

Pay attention to the warnings if you decide to handle 20% vinegar or acetic acid. It can blind you if you get it in your eyes.

-Deerslayer

I've used regular white vinegar for weeds in my plant beds with great results. Within 3-4 hours the weeds turn black and shrivel up. For best results use on a hot sunny day.

Here is a link that might be useful: Household Vinegar experiment w/pics

Add 2 ounces of orange oil directly to 1 gallon of 10% vinegar. It's more effective and cheaper than expensive 20% vinegar, i think.

You can't really kill bermuda with this stuff anyway since they do not kill roots. They spread by rhizomes in the ground. Only round up will do that during growing season.

The Maestro Gro 20% vinegar is $9.79/gal. If you dilute it to 10%, it is $4.90/gal. If I used it, I wouldn't dilute it.

Maestro Gro is sold at retail stores. The "Contact Us" page at the Maestro Gro site has an email address that you can use to find the nearest retailer.

-Deerslayer

Lou is correct in that vinegar kills top growth only. This is true for all plants including Bermuda. Using vinegar is similar to burning the plant with a propane torch or clipping the plant at soil level. If the plant has a robust root system or is tap rooted (for example, dandelion), the plant will probably regrow.

Roundup is a systemic, non-selective herbicide that kills the entire plant including roots. The key active ingredient in Roundup is glyphosate. Since Roundup is no longer under patent, generic Roundup can be purchased as Lawn and Weed Killer at most box stores. I saw a 40 oz bottle of concentrate on clearance sale this past fall at Lowe's for $1.50. A 40 oz bottle of concentrate makes 12.5 gallons of generic Roundup.

Here's more information:

Glyphosate

Obviously, the use of glyphosate is not considered an organic lawn care practice.

-Deerslayer

Glyphosate will also destroy soil biology because it's a salt (there's many kinds of salt) and supposedly, they kill protozoa primarly. Without protozoa, organic fertilizers are worthless for the most part because protozoa are responsible for releasing nutrients to the plant roots.

If you're going to use it for out of control weeds or very hard to get rid of grass and go back to organic, you will have to put down compost to re-introduce protozoa back into the soil to get nutrient cycling going...

"Glyphosate will also destroy soil biology because it's a salt"

I agree that glyphosate will harm soil biology but I believe that it is an aminophosphonic acid.

-Deerslayer

Doesn't really matter what exactly they are. You would have to Call Dr Ingham for a lot more detailed information how it damages soil biology...

I wasn't clear in my earlier message. Glyphosate is an aminophosphonic acid. Glyphosate is not a salt.

-Deerslayer

from what I have come to understand you want to use a stronger solution of white vinegar. Some people will use 20% just to try to get the ph level to go down, doesn't do too much to the lawn. I plan on using a strong dilution of vinegar in my back yard with bermuda.

Goodluck.

Yes it is a form of salt. I'm not talking about table salt....

Lou, whatever the substance is, you always say it is a salt. Vinegar is an acid...acetic acid if you want to get more specific.

Do you know anything about chemistry?

-Deerslayer

Yep it is salt. Accept it and get on with life. I've told you many times to read Dr Ingham's work but it's quite clear that you'd rather pull bad useless info out of your butthole or use somebody's else poorly designed studies to justify your stupid remarks. Whatever..

after googling "glyphosate salt", several links came up supporting lou.

sorry DS, lou wins this round :)

after googling "glyphosate salt", several links came up supporting lou.

sorry DS, lou wins this round :)

If we're keeping score, the fair thing would be to google glysophate salt and also to google glyphosate acid. Whether you use quotes or not, you'll get about twice as many hits for acid as for salt.

I've done a little reading, and technically, glyphosate is an acid, but it can be used in salt form.

Here is a link that explains it fairly well.

Strictly speaking, glyphosate is an acid, but some glyphosate based herbicides use a glyphosateate based salt.

The wikipedia article Deerslayer linked mentions that it is sold in formulations as a salt and as an acid.

Everything I've read on the matter leads me to believe that Deerslayer is correct in saying that glyphosate is an acid. It can be sold in a salt form, so there is some validity to Lou's statements, but technically, glyphosate is an acid.

i love these forums.

Ok, I don't care whether glyphosate is a salt or acid, either way I will use it (sparingly) to keep back the burmada from under my trees this summer.

OK, BLACKSTRAP MOLASSES? I found only one kind of molasses, I think it was just a "dark" molasses. Is this going to do the trick? I found it at walmart. I couldn't find "black strap" type or any other for that matter.