Some knowledgeable folks think topdressing with compost isn't worth the effort.

I think it is at least once. Nothing has made my lawn improve more (before and after) than the one application of compost I gave it a few years back. But, its a lot of work and not too cheap.

However, I do agree with those that say if you keep using organics, you will get to about the same place with or without compost. It just might take longer.

The sulphered molasses basically is a quick snack for the microherd.

Compost tea helps do what compost does. My luck with it hasn't shown a noticeable improvement, BUT, I might not have been the best brewer and I might have quit too soon (one summer) to see alot of improvement.

Lastly, and always hestitate to put this on the organic forum, I don't want to cause a debate, I could never get my organic approach to really keep my cool season lawn greener in the winter and green up fast in the spring until I started giving it a late season application of urea. ( ONE pound per thousand of nitrogen after the first hard frost.)

That is kind of a litmus test on how "pure" you want to be on organic. Your yard will do fine without it, but, I like my results better with it.

One of those "to each his own" kind of choices. And, like I alluded to, if I had been better and more diligent with the compost tea, or have applied compost more often, I might not need the urea to get the results I like.

"The sulphered molasses basically is a quick snack for the microherd."

I thought it was important to use unsulfured molasses because sulfur can kill some microbes.

Your right BP. I wasn't focusing on the type of molasses. The recommendation is UN sulphered molasses.

Although, having put down pounds of sulpher on my yard to modify the ph and fertilize, I often wonder how much a little molasses might affect things whether sulphered or unsulphered. But, especially for compost tea quantities, I agree with you, un is the best choice.

As to the thin lawn, next year when you reseed again, use too much seed. Use more than the bag says to apply and check in here to see if your seeding plan is optimized. Many people put seed down and do not roll (or stamp) it down. Or they don't scalp the turf first. Or they forget to water every day. There are many ways to seed incorrectly. The major carpet forming grasses (Kentucky blue and bent in the north and zoysia, bermuda, centipede, and St Augustine in the south) will fill in for you, but fescues do not. They are called a bunch grass because they do not spread out like a carpet. The only way to get more fescue is to apply more seed. And if you lose some to insects or disease, they don't come back to fill in.

Otherwise you are doing what I do and don't do (i.e. perfection, LOL).

Thanks all for your quick responses!
There IS compost available in my area but it is quite expensive. $40/ cu yd. I have 12000 sq ft. Based on the calcs on the compost web site I would need 20 cu yds!
I think I'll stick to the front yard.(At 1/2 inch 1.67 CuYds covers 1000 sg ft).
As far as the overseeding I scalped my lawn first, put on the recommend amount on the bag but didn't roll. I probably didn't water enough either as I have a well and would hate for that to run dry from watering grass.

Well, I'm not sure about where you got your numbers. It sounds fairly high to me.

When I did my yard I put out about 1 cubic yard per thousand square feet. The recommendations I heard then suggested 1 cubic yard per every 800 to 1000 sq ft. That will get you about one quarter to three-eights of an inch of depth. (Spreading the stuff evenly isn't exactly an exact science anyway). I think you'll be happy with the results at that rate.

More, until you get to the point where you might smother it, might be better, but, your pocket book, back and yard will probably all be happier all in all with a good, but maybe not optimum, rate.

Smiity,

You'd need 12 yards of compost, not 20. You need only 1/4th of an inch to get more diversity of species into the soil. It is expensive, I agree.

Mine is also not greening up that quickly (the weather for the last two weeks being really on again, off again) and we're pretty close to each other (as previously noted). Most of March has been cold rain.

Frankly, this year has stunk. Today is the very first day that the ground temperature has gone above 50, and most days it's been hovering in the lower 40's. That's not warm enough to awaken the grasses at any speed. Tomorrow we go right back under freezing with a high of 50.

No matter how well-fed, few lawns are going to like that weather. They're not happy. So we're not happy.

This is always the time in the season when I kick back, grab a frosty beverage (an adjective/noun combo that's becoming a forum standard!) and train myself to wait. It's not long now. I must put down the chemicals and BACK AWAY SLOWLY.

You did absolutely everything on the essential list. What's left are the non-essentials. Molasses is great, but not critical. Compost is great, but not critical. Microbes blow around on the wind quite naturally (as we're discovering more and more, there's life right up to the stratosphere). Some are pleased to make a home in your well-fed soil.

Each of them will be more than happy to have many divisions for you, optimally every 20 minutes. Even at 4 hours, start with 1...you have a billion in less than a week.

Don't believe me, do the math yourself. log(1,000,000,000)/log(2) = 29.9 divisions, call it 30, times 4 hours each is 120 hours. There are 168 hours in a week.

You got more than one blowing in, and had plenty hanging around enjoying the scenery before that. The divisions aren't mathematically perfect, so even if it took a month to turn several quintillion into a number technical folks call "mondo," that's fine.

What you don't have--and I don't have much of--is a large amount of organic material cycling in the soil. That will take some time. Keep at it and the results will astound you.

iving it a late season application of urea

This, too, is fine. I used Winterizer last year, I probably won't bother this year and use Organic Choice instead or go to straight urea. Does it kill some bacteria? Maybe. The jury is out on that one when used at the concentrations that go on our lawn. Do they reproduce fast? See the math above. Wipe out 90% and improving conditions will restore them. Fast.

morephesus

Do you have any sources to back that info up? I mean I listen to Dr Ingham from Soil Food Web all the time and she never said anything about microbes in the air helping improve the soil....

And she did say that adding straight urea for the fall application does "nasty" things to the soil...

Do you have any sources to back that info up?

Baby always has sources. A quick search showed this...which means they're going into the air. Air plus wind equals travel, as handily proven by the algae that manage to populate every time it rains for a week straight.

Airborne Bacteria in the Atmosphere

I remember reading something in...Nature? Science? One of the two, anyway, some time ago about it as well.

I mean I listen to Dr Ingham from Soil Food Web all the time and she never said anything about microbes in the air helping improve the soil....

And she's in the business of...

(Yes, it's a leading question which I tend to hate, but I'm trying to get some skeptical thought in here).

The simple fact that nature has slogged along happily for four billion years without us testing the soil and composting everything is both a triumph of biology and a testament to the mobility of micro- and macro-organisms. Even I shed a few million bacteria every time I go outside. Most aren't compatible with that environment. Some that I dragged from other places are.

Urea, or (NH2)2CO, is handled by...bacteria, post-hydrolysis. Microorganisms also produce it. I produce it. Strangely, Dalmatians do not.

Ammonium, urea post hydrolysis, can kill bacteria. I haven't seen any good studies that show it kills enough and provides enough setback time to cause a problem in the amounts we would use (1 lb/K ft or so). Dogs (except Dalmatians) add massive amounts with Every Pee, but the soil bacteria can deal with it if they have a carbon buffer.

Use in ridiculous amounts probably would have an impact, but you wouldn't have a lawn left, either.

Like I said above, those little suckers divide fast and exponentially in available space and with food.

Doing that in fall, when they're inactive anyway, gives all winter for slowed reproduction to restore the population, plus early spring. To bacteria, that's an aeon even if they're inactive 19 days out of 20 and even if it did damage, which remains unproven.

Skeptical thought again. Should you believe me? (Another leading question). Certainly not, if you don't wish to. Go, there's a world of resources out there. Research. Learn. Report back, I could always be wrong--and would learn something if I were.

But please...try to use neutral sources, or at least ones whose businesses do not depend on people believing they have sick soil without the Special Magic Ingredient.

Still, How does that have to do with the soil biology? There are literally millions of microorganism species and likely there are a lot of them that have nothing to do with the soil biology as far as improving it for plants.

Care to list anyone else beside Dr Ingham that has to do with soil food web?

You're talking about chemistry. I'm talking about biology. That's the difference.

There are literally millions of microorganism species and likely there are a lot of them that have nothing to do with the soil biology as far as improving it for plants.

Red herring. What has this to do with the above?

Care to list anyone else beside Dr Ingham that has to do with soil food web?

You're talking about chemistry. I'm talking about biology. That's the difference.

No, and incorrect respectively. I apologize for whacking into a personal prejudice of yours. Regrettably, argumentum ad hominem and argumentum ad ignoratum are two of mine.

You are, however, entirely capable of doing the work yourself so I shall leave you to it.

smitty

Your lawn may not be as green as your neighbors, but I guarantee your lawn is healthier and has greater tolerances to drought, insects, disease, nematodes, temperature stress etc. Which in turn means you use less water, no pesticides, herbicides or fungicides. Your lawn is environmentally friendly and easy on you wallet. Try to stop comparing the color if you can. Just wait until the middle of summer during a period of drought then see who's lawn looks healthier.

My neighbor (who also has a Floratam lawn) uses Synthetics and usually shortly after he fertilizes his lawn is almost glowing green. It defiantly gets greener than mine, but its short lived.

Its not a waste of time to apply grains without compost. Your soil will produce/multiply many microbes.

Is it possible your neighbor has a different grass variety than you?
What variety of grass do you have?
At what rate per 1000sqft do you apply grains?

Skoot Cat. My lawn is mostly KBG and fescue I believe. I don't know about the neighbor but the grass blades are much like mine. I have been putting down 20lbs/sq ft.

You are/have done everything appropriately. You could spread a thin layer of compost to increase microbial activity, but its not absolutely necessary. I use compost on trouble spots in my lawn. You can also spray molasses monthly/bi-monthly without fear of harming your lawn. The recommended rate is 2-4oz per gallon to cover 1000sqft.

The amount of microbial activity is dependent on soil temps. When the soil warms up a bit your microbes will be going crazy. They are doing what there suppose to be doing now. Just because you don't notice much on top of the soil doesn't mean your microbes are not working.
Be patient, and give it time. A beautiful lawn does not appear overnight.

Are the thinning areas of your lawn shaded?

I have some shaded area that are thin. Not much I can do about that I guess. But there are large sunny patches in my backyard that are thin and never seem to green up during the year like the rest of the lawn. Maybe I should try compost on these areas? Also what type of mollasses would I use?

If you have a thin area that never seems to green up, then compost is in order. If that does not work, then I would suspect a spill of some chemical that is antibacterial. I have a spot in my yard where I sawed treated lumber way back in '96. It still will not grow grass due to the persistent copper and arsenic from the wood. That soil needs to be removed and replaced.

Any kind of molasses is good. Unsulfured is better. If you have a farm and ranch co-op in your area, check to see if they sell it by the pound. In my area I can get molasses for about $0.10 per pound. That is a little over a dollar per gallon in my own container.

Also make sure those areas are receiving enough water from your irrigation. Put your tuna cans in the sunny thin areas and run your irrigation as normal. Your irrigation system my not be applying water uniformly.