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easychair_gw

What can be done for the soil before seeding in the fall?

easychair
12 years ago

My lawn is green but loaded with weeds, and I'm going to be slit-seeding in the fall, so I figured that over the next couple of months I would do what I can to amend the soil. So what can I do, and what should I not do?

I used Nitron liquid aerator a couple of months ago and have 1/3 gallon left that I figured I'd spray on. I could also get more or another similar product.

Also, I figured I'd over-fertilize until then to give the soil organisms lots of food. Is it possible to add too much?

Should I use a lot of compost tea? I can get it at Whole Foods near me for $4/gallon.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Comments (16)

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    I'm not sure what these liquid "aerators" are supposed to do but the two I have found ingrediants for list alcohol as the primary ingrediant. There simply is not liquid that can replace organic matter in your soil. Compost tea might help if there is almost enough OM in the soil because you would be adding, hopefully, beneficial bacteria from the tea. However, if the soil the grass is growing in does not have sufficient levels of organic matter for those bacteria to live on they will simply go dormant until there is and you will have wasted your money.
    Contact your county office of the Rutgers Cooperative Extension Service about having a good, reliable soil test done and then use these simple soil tests to learn more about your soil.

    1. Soil test for organic matter. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

    2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains� too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

    3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

    4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell.

    5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

  • easychair
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks. Sorry for the long response, but I feel that time is of the essence and I want to have a plan in place and perhaps get it started right away, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    I did have a soil test done by Rutgers a few months ago, but it didn't test for organic matter. It showed low ph, low phosphorous, which I partially corrected with lime. I am considering bone meal now to add the phosphorous. I'll do the shake test tonight if I can find a jar. I'll do the dig test tomorrow.

    The Nitron doesn't list any alcohol. It smells a lot like an ammonia all purpose cleaner like Fantastic and maybe a little like shampoo. It gets sudsy when shaken. I'm not saying it doesn't have alcohol, but they don't list it as an ingredient.
    It says the following:
    Iron .10%
    Manganese .05%
    Zinc .05%
    Derived from zinc, manganese, and iron sulfates. Lignin sulfonate used as a complexing agent.

    One problem with my yard is that I believe there are different conditions in different areas. It smells like manure where I've dug deep. I assume that's the marl clay, which is probably in all areas. There are certainly signs of compaction throughout.

    Let me ask you your opinion on aerating at this point. I've read online that it's not the best idea to aerate in the heat of the summer, because it can encourage weeds to spread and expose more heat to the soil and damage grass. I happen to be in a position where the grass isn't in the best shape anyway, and I plan to overseed the existing lawn in the fall, or possibly even kill off all vegetation before seeding if not too much trouble. I was looking at organic versions of weed killers, but couldn't find any that don't harm grass. Any suggestions? Because I have so many weeds from seeding 2000 of the 7000 sq. ft. of total lawn area in the heat of summer, I feel I have to do something to get rid of them well before I plan to seed in the fall. I don't want to use chemical selective weed killers, but I wonder if that's the best option for me for the area that I seeded. I have about 50% weeds over the 2000 sq. ft. newly seeded area. So, do I take the chemical step as the lesser of evils and just start back up with organic lawn care once the new turf is established?

    Or do I use a nonselective acetic acid product a before I plan to seed in the early fall(and how long before) or will even that kill the organisms in the soil just like Round Up?

    Also, what do you think of core aeration now, and while the holes are open fill them and topdress with compost or water with a lot of compost tea?

    And finally, what do you think of throwing lots and lots of organic fertilizer on the soil now or core aerating and filling the holes with the compost and following that up with a lot of fertilizer on top?

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    Since this is an Organic Lawn Care forum even the suggestion of using any glyphosate product like Round Up is not done. It is not now and never has been an acceptable product for organic gardeners/farmers to use.
    There may be some benefit to core aeration and then adding something such as compost, or other types of organic matter, but if your soil does not now have an active Soil Food Web spraying some liquid stuff will do little to change that since those critters need organic matter in the soil to feed on.

    Here is a link that might be useful: The Soil Food Web Primer

  • easychair
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Sorry if it came across that way, but I wasn't suggesting using a glyphosate product like RoundUp. I would use a selective chemical if I were to keep the already established grass, and if not, I would use a non-selective organic vegetation killer. But I'm concerned that even the organic one would kill the organisms in the soil.

  • silver8ack
    12 years ago

    So instead of berating the OP for mentioning RoundUp, how about we give some advice in how the weeds can be taken care of.

    Because I need to know also! My backyard is almost 100% crabgrass. I'd like to renovate organically but need help. No clue how to get rid of it.

    I *gasp* sprayed round up on the front lawn where I had Bermuda/Zoysia growing already but I want the back to be chemical free for the kids. I'm also in NJ.

  • easychair
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    silver8ack, It looks like there are lots of organic non-selective weed killers you could spray on the whole yard. I just wish there were a selective one that wouldn't effect whatever grass is already established, but I guess the worst case scenario for me is to spot shoot it or use a sponge on a stick. The organic ones seem to use an acid, and I wonder how much they lower soil ph. If it's significant, I suppose adding a bit of lime afterwards couldn't hurt, right? Even Wal-Mart carries an organic line. I don't remember which.

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    When renovating an area for turf grass you could till the soil, adding your organic matter at the same time, several times waiting in between tilling operations for any "weed" seeds to germinate and start to grow. Tilling them in, just after they sprout, will kill them and setting seed won't happen because they have not set any yet.
    Spraying vinegar, acetic acid, during the middle of the day could kill any "weeds" growing there and will not adversly affect the soils pH significantly. Never apply lime to a soil without a good, reliable soil test to tell you which lime to apply and how much.
    "Weeds" often give you a clue about potential soil problems since many grow best in soils that do not grow a good turf.

  • dchall_san_antonio
    12 years ago

    kimmsr is gonna get you if you bring up chemicals on this forum! He gets me every now and then. My problem with discussing chemicals on this forum is that the people who hang out here are often very unfamiliar with chemicals and you can get bad advice. If you want to ask questions about chemical, go to a non-organic forum. Secondly, the people who hang here are looking for organic solutions, not chemical solutions. Sometimes there is no perfect answer in the organic world. Such is the case when you look for selective foliage killers.

    The organic plant killers are usually based on vinegar. Vinegar is organic and a carbohydrate. The pH does not affect the soil that much because you do not saturate the soil. All you do is spray the leaves of the plant with a light mist. Ideally the vinegar never hits the soil, but even if it does, it is an organic carbohydrate just like sugar.

    I can see from your posts that you are very anxious to core aerate. The stuff you have sprayed is a hydrophillic (water loving) chemical salt. Whether it is approved for organic use I do not know, but I do know it is used to hold dust down on country roads. Works very well for that. I happen to have a picture of it.

    That picture was taken July 26, 2009 near Hemet, CA. It was HOT. You can see the line where the county road people started spraying. It looks like a cloud shadow, but the darker area shows where the moisture has been absorbed. It had not rained there for months. The moisture it collects is just humidity out of the air.

    Back to core aerating, I would let the spray work. Core aerating is a LOT of work and the benefit is not usually what you are looking for. Organic fertilizer applied slightly heavily on a monthly basis can be one now in the heat of summer without fear of harming the soil. Apply at 20-30 pounds per 1,000 square feet.

    for silver8ack, crabgrass is a summer annual weed. That means it dies completely in the fall and comes back only from seed in the spring. The best defense against crabgrass is to have a dense turf by spring. Proper watering, mowing height, and fertilizer will go 90% of the way to fighting off the weeds. Bermuda can take a lot of nitrogen, especially if you are using organics. You cannot possibly get enough to satisfy it, in fact. It will look amazing, but it can always take more.

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    Core aeration has become a standard practice for soils that are not properly taken care of. Core aeration, or any soil aeration, is only needed in soils that lack adequate levels of organic matter. Soils that lack adequate levels of organic matter will become compacted and compacted soils need mechanical aeration if sufficient amounts of organic matter are not going to be added.

  • easychair
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks for the Nitron lesson, dchall! I like the idea of adding a lot of organic matter to the soil. It makes sense what kimmsr was saying about compaction being the result of having inadequate organic matter in the soil. But I was wondering how to speed up the process of feeding the soil with organic matter. I was even considering core aerating and filling the holes with organic fertilizer or a combination of fertilizer, peat and compost, but maybe I'm going overboard. If I don't have to go through the trouble of core aerating, I won't. I would buy more of the liquid aerator if you think it would do something. Maybe try a different brand or the beer homemade stuff I read about somewhere around here.

    How long before seeding would you kill off the weeds with the organic weeding spray?

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    Very often someone might need to aerate the soil they have, especially if it has been brutalized in the past, once or maybe twice but aerating every year and not correcting the soil compaction problems is not a very smart practice. It can take 3 to 5 years of adding organic matter to soils to see the benefit, but that organic matter will open the soil and make aeration unnecessary.
    Most all organic "weed" killers are contact and have no waiting period after application. If a commercial organic "weed" killer has a waiting period on its label it isn't organic. However, you probably would want ot wait until the plant sprayed was dead and gone before seeding over it because making preparations for seeding could disrupt the poisoning enough to allow the plant to grow back.

  • silver8ack
    12 years ago

    Just to touch on the chemical topic... I think a lot of folks are getting into organic lawn care(like me). We want to introduce organic methods so we come here looking for options. We still may use 'chemicals' but we are trying to implement organic methods as well. So, with all due respect, people need to get off their organic high horse. You don't see people in the 'Lawn Care' section berating people for mentioning the word Organic in a 'Chemical' forum, so chill out :) It can be very intimidating for someone with no experience to jump 100% into organic LAWN CARE. Gardening is another topic, but when you're talking about acres of turf and you start going off about alfalfa, bone meal, blood meal, soybean tablets, etc etc etc, its easy to get lost in all of that and say... dang, this round up looks good.

    And back to the topic... So I know crabgrass is an annual deal... my main issue is, can I really wait until the crabgrass dies off to plant TTTF? I just don't want to wait too long, and then have an early frost or something and screw everything up.

    I've already killed the bermuda/zoysia or whatever it was with Round Up. I was planning on using Burnout or something similar in the back yard as I want to keep chemicals out of there. I wrote up my little 'plan' in the Lawn Care forum if you care to check it out :)

    Here is a link that might be useful: Link to my thread

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    The best defense against crabgrass is to grow a good healthy turf and mow it high so that turf is so thick that the crabgrass seeds do not get the sunlight they need to germinate. To grow a good healthy turf you need a good healthy soil and that starts with the soil pH in the range turf grasses grow best in with a balanced nutrient level and sufficient levels of organic matter so the soil is evenly moist but well drained.

  • silver8ack
    12 years ago

    Right, I've definitely learned much in the past few weeks I've been researching.

    I want to start building a healthy lawn. I guess the battle against crabgrass is a long-term battle. I just don't know the right way to get started. I supposed I could let this years crabgrass run it's course, but my main concern is that the crabgrass will block out the seedlings. The weather has been nuts in NJ the past couple years. It may stay hot here until the end of October, then get freezing cold without warning. Or we may get one or two freezing days then it will be 70+ degrees on New Years Day(It really happened lol)

    My main worry is if I just mow the crabgrass as short as possible, and plant new seed, that the crabgrass will just kill all my new seedlings and I'll be left in the same position next year with a spotty lawn where the crabbies can take over again.

  • maplerbirch
    12 years ago

    Crabgrass will dieoff in the fall and as long as you have the seed in place to germinate, it should replace the crabbies, establish before winter and create a thicker turf in the spring...
    Spending time with a long handled garden claw and ripping the stuff out of the ground, helps too...

  • Kimmsr
    12 years ago

    Keep the crabgrass you have now from producing seed and you will have fewer plants to contend with next year. However, birds do eat those seeds and discharge them as they fly over your property so as long as any crabgrass grows anywhere with maybe about 10 miles of you you will get more seed on your soil which could germinate and grow the next growing season.
    Crabgrass seeds need a fairly warm soil with just enough moisture to germinate so cutting your grass fairly long and getting it to grow in fairly thick so that desireable grass shades the soil under it can help prevent those crabgrass seeds from germinating.

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