Can you find nature guide 9-2-2 fertilizer in your area? I thought it was pretty potent fertilizer. It would help speed up growth before winter comes.

Nature guide not available to me. How about milorganite or restore? I can buy them at HD. Are my regular grains not potent enough? Or too cold by mid October? Thx for your help. Just trying to load up on fertilizer by winter.

For a late fall high nitrogen application, you want something that doesn't require microbial action to release the nitrogen. It's not so much that the grains aren't potent enough, but that the microbes that make the nitrogen in them available to the grass will not be active.

Some people who follow a mostly organic approach in lawncare deviate from it for the late fall application. If you want to remain organic, there are options. I think Milorganite will work. I'm less sure about Ringer's Lawn Restore. I used it one fall, but I just went to their website, and I think the slow release portion of the nitrogen requires microbial action, so it may not be the best choice.

Another option is poultry manure. Sometimes you can find poultry manure (or specific manures, such as chicken or turkey) for sale at big box stores.

I just found Cockadoodledoo fertilizer at Lowes. It is reduced for $7.l6 for 40lbs. So I bought it hoping it would work for me now. Deal or no deal. I can use it next spring if it isn't right for now. Just wondering..it is poultry manure? The saga continues.. poop or not? LOL

Here's what the manufacturer says about when to use it.

Yes its poultry manure.

This would be fine to use for your last feeding. Apply ASAP so it can start breaking down before it gets to cold.

One more thing

How large (sqft) is your lawn?

My lawn is about 10,000sq.ft. I bought 4 bags. Each bag covers 2,500 sq.ft. I thought this was chicken manure, so it can be applied later too. So does it need warm temps to break down too? I have at least 3 weeks before frost. How much nitrogen does it supply? I thought I would spread it next week so that my new grass still had room to grow among the existing grass which is nearly 2 inches now. The new seed is about a quarter to one half inch now. Seeded 9 days ago. I kept the lawn as moist as possible. No rain just irrigation system. Won't this manure encourage my existing grass too much and will cause crowding out new seeds and sun. Thx again.

Well I will get flamed on this forum but straddle the fence between the two and use a synthetic-organic compound called urea.

Thx, t-weed, for the suggestion. May have trouble finding urea. Where do I begin? Lowes, Farm Bureau Co-op, HD, Walmart, Fleet and Farm are my choices. Again, thx for all this advice and info. I do listen to all suggestions and my lawn is HAPPY for that. Now, the neighbors wonder what is next up with me. They are still shaking their heads about the Cockadoodledoo bags in my driveway. LOL

I use only traditional organic fertilizers except for my last application in November. I use urea 46-0-0 for that one. Texas-Weed knows what he's talking about.

I buy urea at the same feed store I buy SBM. Uncoated urea 46-0-0 is used as a partial, protein replacement in animal feed.

-Deerslayer

hutchanne,

Urea is a very common fertlizer and can be found in any farm store, box stores, and any professional landscaping supplier. I prefer what is called a slow releasr formula found just in about any box type store. Personally I use LESCO a profession supplier. I think all you will find in farm store is what is known as 46-0-0 a fast release version and some caution should be exercised when using it because it will burn if miss-used. Being in IN you should no problem finding urea.

I live in MA Zone 5b and have a KBG/red fescue/rye blend.

I provide adequate late fall nitrogen by the cumulative effects of fertilizing with Alfalfa at 10-20 lbs/1000 ft^2 in Late July and mid August and switching to Soybean at 10-15 lbs/ft^2 in early and late September. I may add another soybean application or two in mid and late October based on robustness of the lawn and current and predicted soil and air temperatures.

I typically add corn meal in late April and mid May at 10-20 lbs/ft^2 with Milk spraying afterward for fungal control. This also provides a nice slow release fertilizer to get the lawn going.

Grains stay in the soil and provide nitrogen appreciably for 2-3 months and gradually over a year or two. Additions of grass clippings/leaves/compost/etc. also provide nutrients when mulch mowed in. As long as organic matter is constantly added, you will not find the need to spike the lawn in the fall to get the early green up.

I believe that excess addition of leachable N2 at the end of the growing season to maintain green through late fall and early spring may do more harm than good. It kills off most if not all of the microbes in the soil (due to salts and osmotic pressure variances) and would hinder/delay future organic applications. If used please follow with a compost tea spray.

Maintaining a healthy soil that can provide high nitrogen demands when needed instead of force feeding is the way to go.

My lawn stayed greenest the longest in fall/winter and greened up first in Spring with the program outlined above after the first year in this new home. Two of my neighbors are now fertilizing solely with grains.

I don't believe it takes 3 weeks for grains to be active. There is a distribution of particle sizes in the bag and some are readily available to the soil microbes. Watch the dust blow off of a soybean or fine cornmeal feeding in a good wind. I often notice a greenup after application within a week especially if watered well after application.

Just my thoughts.

"It kills off most if not all of the microbes in the soil (due to salts and osmotic pressure variances) and would hinder/delay future organic applications."

Please provide a reliable source for your statement.

-Deerslayer

Deerslayer, I was going to ask a similar question.

Poultry manure has a high concentration of urea in it. Urine does as well. Both poultry manure and urine are good organic sources of nitrogen that feed the soil microbes.

Urea that comes in a bag was chemically derived and kills the microbes.

How can the microbes tell the difference between organically derived urea and synthesized urea so they know which should kill them and which should cause them to thrive?

Urea is a waste product of cell metabolism. In bioreactors if allowed to accumulate will quickly kill off the cells. The statement was more geared towards the use of chemical salt fertilizers, but excess urea placed in the soil will also stress/kill mircobes and burn the lawn. It is not required if you build the soil and let the lawn follow. It may be good for the lawn but it's role in the food web is a waste stream.

This comes from years of experience in both organic garderning and my day job as a process engineering director in charge of providing technical support to cell culture and protein purification operations. We assay numerous metabolites including glucose, glutamate, glutamine, lactate, urea and pCO2. We do everything we can to maintain healthy levels of cellular food (glucose, glutamate, gluatamine) and focus equally as hard on mitigating lactate, pCO2 and urea.

Urea is also highly soluble and mobile in the soil. My home sits over our town's water shed and has a nitrogen ban as too many fast releasing lawn fertilizers find their way into the water shed and cause algae blooms. This practice of having nitrogen bans is becoming more and more common to protect our water sheds.

How could something so harmfull to the environment be considered organinc?

Information provided by graventropy is very interesting. Sounds like the real thing. We all can learn a bit more from this thread. Right, guys and gals. Thx everyone. I respect your opinions and advice. Wouldn't be trying organics, if not for you all, and my grandchildren.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same things. I agree that an excess of a fast release fertilizer will burn the lawn. I don't know for sure that it will kill most or all of the soil microbes. But my question is this: Why would chemically synthesized urea kill all the microbes, but urea from urine and manure not kill the microbes?

I also agree that fast release nitrogen could migrate to the watershed. But I don't think it matters whether the fast release nitrogen comes from a synthetic source or an organic source. What matters is that it's fast release and highly water soluble (and used in excess). If your town has a ban on nitrogen fertilizers, you wouldn't be able to use chicken manure or blood meal either and they're both organic.

As for how something that is harmful to the environment could be organic, there are plenty of examples of things that are harmful to the environment that are organic, especially if you consider excessive amounts. If you want an extreme example of how excessive amounts of certain chemicals can be deadly, do a web search on DHMO.

I'm not trying to advocate wholesale use of chemical fertilizers. I don't even remember the last time I used any chemical fertilizers (probably at least 5 years ago). I'm just trying to understand why urea kills the microbes when it is synthesized, but helps them grow when it comes from animals. On another note, aren't algae microbes? If urea kills all microbes, how can it also cause algae bloom?

The more I try to understand this, the more confused I get.

A steady diet of quick release fertilizer will reduce organic matter (OM) in the soil. It doesn't matter whether the fertilizer is organic, synthetic organic, or inorganic (urine, blood, and fish emulsion are examples of organic quick release fertilizers). This is because quick release fertilizers do not create OM. Even worse, studies have shown that the addition of quick release fertilizer speeds up OM consumption.

If you have adequate organic matter in your soil and you normally fertilize with organic fertilizers, one application of a quick release fertilizer per year will not be harmful.

I live in the woods and mulch inches of leaves into my lawn each year. The additional N from a urea application speeds the decomposition of the leaves. The decomposed leaves add valuable OM to my soil. The late season urea application also keeps my grass green (even under snow) thru spring. I don't need to wait for a spring green-up because my lawn is already green. My lawn responds normally to organic fertilizers from spring through fall. Clearly, I do not kill all of my soil microbes with the late fall urea application.

BPGreen, you are correct in assuming that there is no difference between the urea found in mammalian urine and the urea purchased in a bag. They have the same chemical formula and soil microbes can't tell the difference.

-Deerslayer

Thanks for the explanation.

So to the OPs question about the chicken manure fertilizer, does it need warm temps to break down? Does it need the microbial activity the same way grains do? Or can it be used in place of, but at the same time of year, one would use a synthetic fert for the late fall/winter feeding? The manufacturer's site says to apply late Oct/early Nov. This would seem to indicate that warm temps are not needed for it to become available to the roots. But that part isn't clear to me. If so, what is breaking it down? Could someone clarify? All the talk of urea in the above posts has thrown me off. Or is the chicken manure an alternate source of urea? Thanks

Since the chicken manure is largely urea, I don't think it needs the microbial action to break it down.

Ohhhh. . . Knowing that chicken manure is urea clarifies most of those posts. So urea (whether from animals, i.e. chicken manure or from a synthetic, i.e. chemical) is water soluble and taken up directly by the roots? As opposed to grains which first are broken down by the microbes. Ok, if I have that correct than I am good. Urea, in any form, is new to me.

Grassman, you're an the right track. Here's more information. Often, what's called chicken manure is really dried, ground chicken litter. What's the difference? Chicken litter includes bedding material and feathers. After all, who wants to separate that stuff? 8^)

The feathers and bedding are slow release organic fertilizers and feed the soil like grains.

-Deerslayer

FWIW urea is used as a livestock (cows, sheep & goat)protien supplement in feed. In fact the hamburger, steak, or roast you just ate was fed with urea just before processing as the price of corn has soared and feed lots have cut back on corn and supplement with urea to stretch out what little corn they now use to feed cattle to fatten them up.

Well, they say fools rush in where wise men fear to tread... so here is MY opinion on this little issue.

First, T-W consistently gives some of the BEST advise on bermuda and related lawn issues on the board. And, he speaks from experience, not just reading up on stuff. However, I would suggest his advice by modified just a tad for COOL season grasses. Slow release urea is best in all bermuda and warm season scenarios I can imagine, but cool season grasses take in most of their fertilizer needs in the fall and, unlike bermuda, stay green most of the winter. The last feeding of the year for cool season grasses stores carbohydrates in the crown of cool season grasses for spring green up and the cool season grasses, at least, certainly grow roots during a lot of the offseason.

Fertilzers that are slow to breakdown, either because of coating or because they need microbes that aren't as active once COLD weather arrives do not fill that niche.

How damaging SMALL amount of urea(I usually use about a pound or pound and a quarter per thousand at the most)urea might be to soil organisms I have not seen any studies on.But, my experience is that it makes my yard much healthier through the winter and spring. It stays much greener.

I knew that urea could be used as a partial protein replacement in cattle feed, as Texas-Weed wrote. Recently, I also learned that chicken manure can be used the same way.

Chicken Manure in Feed

Keep in mind that only ruminants can digest urea and chicken manure.

-Deerslayer