I used a different product (Revive) that has some additional ingredients to help lawns in the intermountain west. It seemed to help some, but I had also changed some other lawncare practices around the same time (mostly working harder at increasing the organic content in the soil) so I don't know how much of the improvement was due to the Revive and how much to the other changes.

Most of these products are essentially surfactants and/or wetting agents with a few other ingredients. The main benefit comes from the surfactants/wetting agents because they help water penetrate into the soil.

Some people have used cheap baby shampoo to get the surfactant/wetting agent benefits.

Here is a link to a thread in the lawncare forum with a "recipe" for a home made liquid soil conditioner.

I have tried a similar product from PBI Gordon. To use as directed was cost prohibitive for me, but it smelled like I knew what I was doing. :) Results were "so what" probably cause I didn't use the quantity necessary.

Home made compost tea would be a better alternative, IMHO.

The cost for these 2 products is cheap. $30/gal but only 2-4 oz/1000sqft. The Outside Pride says its NOT a soap surfactant. I'm hoping someone out there has had experience with one of these products. They are both widely sold on the internet. They make lots of claims, but...

I would be HIGHLY suspicious of any liquid soil conditioners. IMO the soaps are essentially worthless and very very very few of the products claiming to increase microbial activiity work at all. As one poster mentioned homemade compost tea would be much cheaper and much more effective. You'd need to use it on a regular basis in conjunction with mulch mowing or adding some other form of OM but I just can't see any reason at all to purchase any whiz bang product making claims when tea and increasing OM is clearly the best option.

Any of these products are soaps or detergents that reduce the surface tension of water so it flows easier. None of them are a substitute for good stewardship of your soil and will not replace the need to add organic matter to the soil.

I get the message that those who responded to this thread have never tried products from either of these companies. I thank you all for your input, but unless you have tried one of these soil conditioners or know specifically what the ingredients are, your advice is just too general. If anyone has any actual experience with Outside Pride (LazyMan)or Aerify/Nature's Magic, positive or negative, I'd like to hear your story. The companies have plenty of "evidence" that their products work. I'm looking for an objective assessment.

These products are not that different from other similar products, so the answer is the same. They work to an extent, but they're not miracle products.

The main thing they do is to help water get into the soil. There are also a few other ingredients, but those ingredients will probably be in the soil to some degree anyway.

It doesn't make a lot of difference whether somebody used the exact item you're looking at. What matters is how these products work in general.

Of course the manufacturers will be able to show that their products work. They all work to an extent.

I have used surfactants over the past 30 years on all types of situations from compacted soils to heavy clay in my landscaping of homes, commercial properties and golf course work. I have not used the two you asked about. But, what bpgreen has written above is almost true. The effectiveness of a surfactant depends on understanding the number of applications needed for a particular soil problem to be successful. In the case of lawns and heavy clay a monthly surfactant application for several years coupled with spring top dressing plus once a week watering does the job. From then on four treatments a year should keep everything open and draining.

Usually the 'soap' which is used in commercial organic surfactants is from a Yucca plant extract. Do a search for detailed information. You sound gung-ho to purchase the expensive ones you mentioned. May I suggest that you can save a ton of money and have the same results using a new organic liquid dishwashing soap named Method which is available at Target or Wal-mart. This contains twice the amount of surfactant as other products. Fill a hose end sprayer with it. Set the dial on 3 tablespoons per gallon and spray once a month. Should you still wish a commercial surfactant then I would urge you to search for Nitron-A35 which I have used for many years with outstanding success.

There just isn't enough variance from one product to the next to make much difference. If you just have a wad of money burning a hole in your pocket then go ahead and spend it but you can get the same benefit, more in fact, without the expense.

I used Lazy Man for the first time last spring. Second app a couple of weeks ago.

Not a surfactant. 20,000 molecule weight polymer of both + and - charge. To me it meant a 'pushme pullyou' movement through the soil that I suppose opens up the structure a little bit. Also contains AM Fungi.

Jury is still out, but I believe there is a turn around in the hardpacked clay in which grass is struggling to survive. I noticed worm holes for the first time in this area, so that is a positive sign.

I still have quite a bit left so I am going to try it in another area where dog urine seems to burn the grass moreso than the rest of the lawn.

Nothing, no matter how expensive or what the salespeople tell you, will replace good soil care. Spraying something on soils devoid of organic matter will do nothing for your soil except draw money from your pocket. Put organic matter into your soil and that will take care of many soil related problems, and no you cannot buy a liquid that will do that.

Check the natures lawn site. It has kelp, blackstrap molasses, concentrated humic acid and other ingredients. These are all things that improve the bioactivity of soil. I'm not selling the stuff, but my lawn has much better water penetration, uses far less irrigation and looks healthier and has darker color than before. I'm confused why there is so little recognition of the possibility that these products may work. Seems like a substitute for compost tea. Comments?

If you do not have sufficient levels of organic matter in your soil spraying something that is supposed to increase the "bioactivity" will not do anything because the bacteria will have nothing to eat. If you get sufficient levels of organic matter in your soil the soil bacteria, the Soil Food Web, will be active and spraying something that is supposed to increase the "bioactivity" would be a waste of money since they are already active.

There's absolutely no doubt that Kimm is correct IMHO. You have to have organic matter in/on the soil for sprays like that to work.

My personal opinion is you could just buy the blackstrap molasses and spray a diluted spray of that stuff. You don't really need it but it does add some sugars, potassium, iron and a little nitrogen. I get the deer molasses from the feed store for about $5.00 per gallon.

But liquids can't do much without organic matter in the soil IMHO. Mowing autumn leaves into your lawn will do far more for your yard than that type of liquid stuff IMHO. Well, at least it has for me over the decades.

I make a few batches of aerated compost tea every year but that doesn't come close to being as good as adding organic matter to the soil IMHO.

stan6, I have not used the particular product but I have tried some others - with no special or beneficial results. There is a mass of evidence that organic matter and microbiological activity in the soil contribute to high and sustained results - whatever the desirable end. Also, the soil physical condition will enhance the effect of the biological/chemical reactions. There is a unique practice of flood fallow on the iron rich clay soils in Guyana. By simply flooding such soils with fresh water for 6 months or more, "soils which are impervious as concrete when dry and structureless as a bar of soap when wet, are given a tilth which will satisfy the most exacting market gardener". (Dr. H Evans). The microbes are already present in soils that are intensively managed; flooding is the only intervention. During those 6+ months various chemical and biological reactions take place but it is quite significant that the effect (that tilth) goes only as deeply as the flood water can penetrate the soil profile. It can sometimes appear to be a chicken-and-egg situation but microbial activity and the soil physical condition are inter-related.

Stan: I had great success with TurfPro. It was difficult to find, but, I got it on the web at www.ecofriendlyonline.com where you can get information about the product. It is a 'complete soil amendment', meaning it has lots of microbiology as well as the organic acids (humic, fulvic, and ulmic) that you would hope to find. Best thing I can say is it worked for me, on an especially nasty patch of nearly bare clay. I got the recommendation from a well regarded radio gardening and lawn show called the 'Garden Rebel'.

Here is a link that might be useful: TurfPro

Stupidly, I just planted my first perennial flower garden at 8000 ft. in the Rocky Mountains without testing the soil. Then I decided to test the drainage and dug a 8"x8" hole and filled it with water. It took 5 hours to completely drain. Oops! The soil is full of shale rock and I put a healthy portion of Miracle Grow Vegetable and Flower soil in each hole. I am here each year only from June through Labor Day. What do you suggest that I do now regarding getting better drainage without having to start over?

Juanita, you should have started a new thread instead of tacking onto a 3 year old thread with a completely different subject.
However, these simple soil tests can help get you started,
1) Soil test for organic matter. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. For example, a good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top.

2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains� too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up.

3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart.

4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell.

5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy.

I've been using Natures Lawn for about five years, after extensive research. I wanted a surfactant to help break up my clay and introduced tons of organic material to the top of my lawn, mostly blended up fruits, herbs and vegetables. The earthworms and roots did the physical work for me. No fertilizers, no soil tests needed, I have dark rich soil about 14 inches deep across my whole lawn.

I also cut out much of my trash. My wife's a chef so I have lots of compost, this worked out well. I also have access to tons of aged horse manure so my garden and lawn are exploding with growth.

No liquid anything, not even compost tea, can replace adding adequate amounts of organic matter to soils. If there is adequate amounts of organic matter in the soil then not even spraying compost teas around will do much of anything since the Soil Food Web is there and working away. Spraying a liquid that is supposed to supply the soil with the Soil Food Web, without adequate amounts of organic matter in the soil, is a waste of time, energy, and money since they will have nothing to feed on.

Kimmsr, please note I added tons of organic material, your comment almost implies I did not.

Here is the point. All that organic material depends on the worms, microbes and the roots of the plants to penetrate the clay layer. The soil conditioner and wetting agents reduce the strength of the bond between the clay particles, helping them to penetrate. Sure, the organic material may eventually work their way down by themselves, but it is a heckuva lot faster using a soil conditioner and wetting agent.

The discussion is not if we should or should not introduce organic materials, the question is about the efficacy of soil conditioners, aerators and wetting agents.

Through experience I have found soil conditioners and liquid aerators work, as advertised - in conjunction with other organic gardening methods. Your takeaway should be that no one option will work by itself, you must use as many options as possible. When I am using these methodologies, I tell my wife that I am feeding the worms.

A surfactant is a substance that reduces the surface tension of a liquid so that liquid can flow more freely. Many surfactants are soaps and these can have bad affects on the soil microbes, the Soil Food Web. If a soil has adequate amounts of organic matter there is no good reason to use them. If adding a surfactant to the water does help that water flow into the soil easier that should tell you that the soil lacks adequate amounts of organic matter.
The only people that benefit from these "soil conditioners" are those that sell them.

Thanks!

The product worked for me and I'll gladly pay for it if I ever need it again! I strongly recommend anyone interested in changing their soil texture from clay to loam introduce copious amounts of organic material aumented with surfactants. Natures Lawn Aerify Plus worked wonders for me. When I thought the surfactants in the Aerify Plus had properly worked their magic, I switched to their All-In-One for Lawns product - which contains a reduced amount of surfactant but introduces other beneficial products I also wanted.

Surfactants are not all soaps.

I'd be waiting another five years for all the organic material if I took your advice! I need results within a reasonable time period.

When I bought my home the previous owners had used the standard N-P-K fertilizer process and had never developed the soil. I was the first to introduce organic material into the soil. The only way to penetrate the thick clay layer was to use surfactants. Three years of applications of a surfactant allowed the earthworms and roots to penetrate the clay.

By the way, there are all kinds of surfactants available that are not commercial.

@kimmsr - I disagree. Those general statements about organic lawn care frustrate those who practice it. I have over 10% organic material in my lawn, based on reliable soil tests from Umass. I have taken samples in the front lawn and the back, and both are very similar, yet my back yard is hydrotropic and compacted. This year I core aerated & even applied baby shampoo. Seems to be improving, but not great. This after 6+ years of nothing but organic lawn care, high % OM.

I have read similar statements on this forum about grubs rarely affecting Organic lawns. Again, my front lawn looks flawless on nothing but organics for 3 years, then I got hit with grubs very badly in 2012...never even bothered to check for grubs because I saw statements that said this doesn't happen to Organic lawns. 2013.. same thing, I had restored/over seeded and repaired my lawn, looked awesome... then the same thing happened. This time I cut out a square and found 20+ grubs p/sq ft.....repaired and applied beneficial nematodes this spring and the issue is resolved...

My point is that it caused people to think they are doing something wrong when their fully organic lawn with high % OM isn't behaving the way people say "it should". In the example above, I believe a sufficient + core aeration is an appropriate action and likely caused the positive results that joel is reporting.

SC77, thanks, but a core aerator has never been near my yard. I couldn't see disturbing the Mycorrhizae network I have developed in my lawn.

Every day that I am home I put something through a blender and toss it onto my lawn to feed the worms (they're spoiled silly). After doing this for five years and gaining experience with vermiposting, as well as purchasing European Nightcrawlers and Alabama Jumpers, just in case, I believe they've earned their keep. I have yet to put a shovel into the ground and not have dozens of worms scrambling to escape the light.

As for the grubs, I applied Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) when I found one single grub and have never had a problem since. I'm probably due for another treatment, it's been about five years.

I recently discovered what I believe is a vole tunnel, too small for a mole. I also dug up some underground tunnels in my shrubs, which had quite a few snakes (my wife did not appreciate me showing them to her).

The one bad thing about feeding the worms is corn meal, it inhibits grass seed germination. So one or two months prior to overseeding I stop throwing on corn meal, which is a worm favorite (I discovered that through vermiposting). I do continue grinding up rabbit food pellets into a fine powder, they seem to enjoy that also. But mostly I feed them bananas, apples, pears, lettuce, grass clippings, old leaves, potato peelings, carrot peelings, sweet potato peelings, plantain peels and old tofu. Never peppers or citrus.

Core aeration won't hurt the microbiology in your yard, at worst a few worms might get executed...For me it is a must to help relieve the compaction, plus it's a great opportunity to get grains & other organic matter down into the soil. I never physically added worms, but just from building up my organic profile, they found my lawn. When I first moved in, I would have had 1 or 2 per shovel, now I won't get a shovel without at least 8-10.

Do you mean Milky spores? Bacillus thuringiensis (i.e. Bacillus popillae and Bacillus lentimorbus). 1 application probably wouldn't have helped if you ever had grubs, really no need to put it down if you don't have any issue. You need to apply this 3 years in a row for it to be most effective. After that, it's good for about a decade or more.

Corn meal doesn't inhibit grass seed germination. Do you mean Corn Gluten Meal? Yea, I keep a huge compost pile filled with leaves, coffee grinds, egg shells, fruit/vegetable scraps, ect.. Mine is just a chicken wire container, I turn it every once in a while, but it takes about a year to get the black gold, then I spread it around the yard, simply by taking shovel fulls of dirt and launching it... the worms do the rest.

I am not sure where on this forum one would have seen something about grubs rarely affecting lawns maintained organically, but that would be by someone that does no know what they are talking about.
Nothing I have seen about any of the strains of Bacillus thuringiensis indicates it is for control of grubs. The bacterium that does control grubs is Bacillus popliiae (or now "Paenibacillus popillia") , Milky Spore Disease. The bacterium is passive, ie. the grubs must find and ingest it for it to work which is why some think it is not very effective.
Since the mid 1960's I have yet to see a soil with adequate amounts of organic matter in the mix that needed core aeration.

My fault on the grubs. I mentioned that I had read that about grubs not affecting organic lawns here before and you as well as other did indeed confirm that was a myth. Even Paul Turkey repeats this saying "The best news for organic gardeners and lawn care folks is that grub control is rarely necessary when landscapes are tended naturally."

I just find it frustrating when statements like this are made, so your comment about compaction not affecting organic lawns, with high organic matter is false. I will start a new thread with evidence.