corrections/additions

my grass: I think my back lawn is primarily a fescue. The front is part fescue but also has a heavy mix of something that is finer and doesn't tolerate heat at all.

our recent weather: lows in the high 40s, highs in the low 70s. The next ten days range 43-80 highest and lowest expected.

Thanks in advance, I look forward to your replies!

Here are some pix to add to all my info. Perhaps these will help you help me. Thanks!

View of bad area from a distance.
{{gwi:51837}}

view of bad area up-close

back yard - fairly healthy with exception of some canadian thistle

Welcome to the forum and lawn care. First, you are probably going to expect a turn around of your soil just by using organics. It will, but slowly (years). I'd advise a good mechanical aeration to open up the soil for air and to get some good compost into the top couple of inches to get started. It will help tremendously come next Spring.

Second, you are very late for overseeding. You don't have 2 weeks. Get your seed in now as soon as possible. Otherwise, it probably won't make it through Winter and you'll have to do a Spring seeding, which isn't the best choice. It is difficult to transition a lawn from chemical to organic and try to overseed at the same time. Many have used chemical fertilizers to get the new seed started and then the next year moved to the grains. You may want to consider that. The soil critters slow down in the cooler weather and may not process the grains to give the grass what it needs in sufficient time.

Check the compost before you buy. Much of what is offered in my area is more like mulch than finished compost.
If your pictures are recent it could be disease, but it really looks more like perennial rye that is burned out plus competition from the tree and shade.

Do you mulch mow and plan to mulch all your leaves into the soil this fall?
What has been your fertilizer routine before; what chemicals were added to the soil?
Have you had a soil test?

Julie--you appear to have a fairly large lawn (as do I). That changes some things, especially regarding Organic recommendations, because you have to do them on a much larger scale. For instance, compost is often recommended at the start of an Organic program, but you would need a large truckload of compost to spread a inch over your entire lawn, and the means to spread it. Not easy.

Here's what I'd do if I were you:

1. Send off a soil test, to include Organic Matter. Based upon this, you'll know if you need Lime or compost, and how much.

2. Water your lawn, at least the damaged areas in the front, to make sure it gets at least 2 inches per week, now through the beginning of winter. I wonder if the damaged area of the front lawn is (lack of) water stress from competition between the grass and that tree (is that a Red Oak?). Coming out of the poor rainfall here in the past few months, and the August temps.

3. Though not Organic, I believe this time you should apply a good Winterizer chemical Fertilizer, sometime in the next few weeks. You could also put down Soybean meal or Alfalfa, if you wanted to get a taste of the Organic, but I think the chemical fertilizer is absolutely needed for your lawn this year.

Then see how things look as Spring approaches. You might need to overseed those patches in the front lawn. Then start with whatever Organic sources of Nitrogen etc. you wish to use. The folks here are always willing to help.

Good luck.

Also, I'd drop the idea of overseeding for this year. It would be unlikely to take hold well this late in our climate, and would likely not match the surrounding lawn well. If you send us some close-ups of your grass, we might be able to ID it for you. I would think Dayton would have mostly KBG lawns, no?

Wait till Spring and see how things look before deciding further. Same goes for aerating.

The red spots you saw in the summer were probably Red Thread. It was very common this year.

Wow, thanks so much for all the wisdom guys. I'm bummed in a way about some of the news though.

Here's an update. I called my lawn guys this a.m. and left a msg. to cancel service and three hours later they serviced my yard! Either that was a big coinsidence or they just wanted to get one last bill on my door. At any rate, here is what they did (I have no idea if it's good or not so please do tell):

1. 50% slow release granular 13-0-13, 3 lbs/1000 sq ft
2. broadleaf weed control liquid momentum fx, 1oz/1000 ft
3. "free iron and lime micro-nutrients"
4. surface insect spray (I never asked for that but I wonder if they did it because I have a big anthill in that naked spot)

Another noteworthy update is that yesterday my neighbor offered to lend me his riding mower and new pull-behind core aerator. Given that I can do that for free I suppose I may as well, eh?

I'm rather unsure what to do about the seeding since in the last day both the neighbor and the lawn guy (via a note) said that I can seed until Oct. 15. I'm sure it just depends on mother nature and waiting longer means more risk.

I'll ask my neighbor what grass he thinks I have and get back to you.

p.s. Yes, I do mulch-mow, always... since we bought the place 1 1/2 years ago. I just read about mulching the fallen leaves and using those too and I plan to do that this fall.

I'd be careful about putting down just whatever seed comes to their minds. Mixing different grasses, or even subtypes of grasses, often ends in a mismatched lawn. My neighbour has done that, in patches, throughout his lawn, and it looks pretty bad, in my opinion.

I'd thank the neighbour for the offer, but ask if you can reconsider in the Spring. The simple reason is, your lawn might not need it. You could take a small hand spade and dig up a core of grass and soil, maybe 3 inches around, and 4-5 inches deep. Measure how thick the thatch layer is. If it's not excessive, and there's no reason your lawn's soil should be overly-compacted, I don't see the need for the aeration. My lawn has been here 60 years, and I have good reason to believe it has never been aerated. And at present at least, it looks great and grows well.

The items done by the lawn service sound appropriate to me, if they did them right, though they should not be putting down lime without a soil test first, to show that your lawn is too acidic.

Don't be bummed. This lawn care stuff is not a once and done activity. If you don't get around to seeding you can focus on building the soil all through next year and plan out your seeding for next fall. It is a routine that will last for years. Some even make a hobby of it. I'm glad you took action on the service you had cause this is my take:
1. 3 lbs of 13-0-13 is .39 lbs of nitrogen per 1000. The recommended rate is 1 lb of nitrogen per thousand per application. That has got to be the most gawdawful excuse for fertilization I've ever seen. Why did they even bother? It is also .39 lb of potassium, but without a soil test one can't tell if that is bad or good. Probably bad.
2. I guess they don't know that the weeds die off in the winter and it really is a waste of product for the most part.
3. Nothing is free. You paid for it somewhere. Is lime a micronutrient? hmmm..., no, I think lime is a mineral.
4. Ok, now that they killed some of your microherd, you'll just have to be more patient next year to get them restarted. Thankfully, there is finished compost.

Have you talked with the people at your local office of the Ohio State University USDA Cooperative Extension Service about lawn care yet? They have an excellent paper on Natural Lawn Care which can be found at, http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/4000/4031.html

Here is a link that might be useful: OSUCES

Here's another good question for all of you... if we will likely be selling our home in the next 1-5 years is it even rational to mess with trying to go organic?

And the second part to that question... If the lawncare company's fert application wasn't enough what shall I apply now, myself (either organic or non-organic)? Or is that also dependent on the soil test?

Also, shall I do a winter seeding after the first frost so it'll just come up in the spring? I've heard that's the 2nd best time to do it if you miss the fall seeding time.

kimmsr, thanks, I'll look into those links.
dave11, where are you located?
everyone, thanks!

"Here's another good question for all of you... if we will likely be selling our home in the next 1-5 years is it even rational to mess with trying to go organic?"

I switched to organics because I'm a cheapskate and I do all my own lawn care. I find that it is much cheaper to mulch mow and spread coffee grounds than to bag clippings and spread synthetic fertilizers. I'm not sure a time frame makes a lot of difference.

Your lawn needs 2 pounds of Nitrogen per 1,000 square feet each year to grow strong and healthy. Most all the synthetic fertilizers will apply that each time you spread them and most of that Nitrogen then is washed out of the soil, unused, and into the water supply which is why much of the water we drink today has very high levels of nitrates. Switching to an organic lawn care program will be much less expensive for you and much better for our environment

"Going organic" can mean different things. I don't speak for anyone but me. Organic means to me the swearing off of traditional step fertilization programs, use of lots of chemicals to control weeds, insects and disease and focus on building a healthy soil environment that sustains plants. It is a thought and cultural process more than a physical process. You can take "organic" many ways. A completely OMRI certified program will likely be more expensive than a chemical program. Mulch mowing and spreading free used coffee grounds will be much cheaper. You are in charge of your costs.
If in 5 years you sell your home your landscape will be much healthier on an organic approach than a chemical approach, which should be money in your pocket.

Here is one easy way to get started. Go to big box store, buy Scotts organic fertilizer, spread per instructions, water 1" per week until first frost, dormant seed New Years Eve (if no snow cover). It is really that easy and then next year just continue the basics. Continue to read this forum over the winter.

Thank you for your input. I understand it being a way of thinking more than a physical process. I was just getting disappointed that perhaps it wouldn't be a rational financial decision in terms of selling sooner than later if the results take 'years' to be seen. But from the sounds of it I can still do it and make good progress while saving a little money along the way. Aside from that I guess it's also a matter of priorities. I'll stick to my organic preference and see how it goes!

One last question (though others are certainly welcome to post their thoughts on my previous questions) - what would be the difference between puting down the organic Scott's stuff or puting down free coffee grounds? I like the sound of free coffee grounds but I want whatever I do right now to be the best thing for the lawn so it can prepare for winter and have a head start next spring.

The free coffee grounds have a fairly low N content (about 1.5% to 2.5%) so it takes quite a few for them to be the only fertilizer you use. I have a fairly small lawn and ready access to grounds, so I can do it, but others have tried and found that it isn't practical for them.

My approach is to start at one corner of the lawn and spread them around until I run out. The next time I get some, I pick up where I left off and keep doing that until I am back at the beginning. By that time, the first grounds I put down are usually no longer noticeable.

One thing to keep in mind is that most organic forms of nitrogen need to be processed by soil microbes in order to be used and those microbes are only active when the soil is above about 40 degrees F. One year, I put some down after it had already cooled off and they were still visible in the spring.

So the Scott's organic stuff would still be beneficial at this point then (so long as I do it soon - next weekend?), and will provide more N... right? I guess that sounds like the best plan unless someone begs to differ or knows of a less expensive alternative. And this would be my only and last application of anything until my dormant seeding? Would I put anything down with the seed or just the seed? Is a particular seed better for dormant seeding? Ugh, the questions never end. Hopefully this is it. ;)

Julie--to answer your question, i'm near Pittsburgh, where we have essentially the same weather as southern Ohio.

After re-reading this post from the start, I think we're making this way too complicated. You're getting different varieties of advice, but it might not be coming across to you that not all of the things that have been suggested are necessarily needed.

It sounds like you've dropped the idea of seeding this year, which is good, especially without knowing what type of grass you have. Aerating is not necessary unless you know for sure that you need it.

A soil test would be great, especially regarding pH and organic matter.

As for fertilizer for Fall, I assume your (just-fired) lawn service fertilized all this year, and probably has provided most of what you needed for the year. So, depending on what source of information you follow, you still need to apply 0.5 to 1 lb per 1000 SF nitrogen this year. You could do that via chemical fertilizers, or organic. There might not be much time for organic fertilizers to kick in before dormancy, but you could still spread Soybean meal or alfalfa. Chemicals would be fine (this once), and sure to work. In fact, there are some proposing on this board that short-acting nitrogen ferts might be better than "winterizers."

I've never used Scott's Organic, but I've heard it costs $$. Why not save some $ and just use whatever source of nitrogen is cheapest right now? You can figure out how much N it provides from the back label. Put down enough of it to hit 0.5 to 1 lb per 1000 SF. Then you can start fresh with SBM or alfalfa or whatever next Spring. Coffee grounds work great, BTW, but I doubt you'd want to sustain that for your size lawn.

Also, in my opinion, dormant seeding might be hard for you, if you're not used to seeding during the rest of the year. I'd suggest just you having your lawn ready to seed by April 1. But you really need to know ahead of time what type of grass you have.

Thank you, dave11 for your good practical advice and for reading all these posts so you could offer it!

What do you mean that dormant seeding might be hard to do? Please explain, in short, if you will. Also, when I go buy my fert, exactly what numbers (all three) would be good to get?

btw, it looks like those on the Miami Valley thread are saying we're in 5b/6 zone for whatever that's worth.

Dormant (or Winter) seeding refers to putting down seed in the Winter, sometimes even on top of snow, and letting it wait for the right soil temp to germinate. I know some folks who like to do it, i'm not sure why they do. i've never seen a proven advantage to it, though some other folks here might chime in. But why do something in the cold Winter that's easier to do in the mild Spring? In our Zone, we're never going to see germination before late April, if then, so why not just seed the lawn on April 1? Then you know exactly when to start watering, and can put down your starter fertilizer along with the seed.

As for the fertilizer, there's no consensus on how much N and P are needed in the Fall, as far as I can see. I think we're all assuming you have Kentucky Bluegrass, and are making N recommendations based on that. If you would pull up some grass blades and take close-up pics, and post them, we might be able to tell you right off. Different grasses require different N amounts, ideally.

But if we guess you need for Fall 1 lb N per 1000 SF, you would need 10 pounds of a 10% N fertilizer per 1000 SF of lawn. If the lawn service was fertilizing well, you might need much less than this. The number-number-number label tells you the percentage of N-P-K inside the bag. P and K seem to be, at least in 2008, less important in Fall feedings, so just worry about the N. I think most fertilizer labels default to this amount in their spreader settings, but you should doublecheck.

Don't forget about watering, as I mentioned earlier. All the fertilizer and seed in the world won't repair those damaged areas if they're deprived of water. I'd water every other day if I were you, unless it rains. 3-4 inches per week.

There are a couple of advantages to dormant seeding. If you spring seed, the grass often doesn't get a chance to fully establish before the heat of summer kicks in. If you dormant seed, the grass will generally germinate a little earlier than with a spring seeding. For one thing, the seed is already down when conditions are right, so you don't have to try to determine the optimal time yourself. For another thing, the moisture over the winter and in the very early spring, along with the freeze/thaw cycles contribute to something called stratification, which can significantly shorten the time required for seeds to germinate. Another advantage to dormant seeding is that the freeze/thaw cycles of the soil, along with the snow melting, help to improve the seed-to-soil contact. The seeds will also germinate with the natural spring moisture and not require irrigation.

There are a couple of potential downsides to dormant seeding. Sometimes there will be a warming trend long enough for the seeds to start to germinate, followed by a hard freeze so the grass dies. Some seed may be lost to birds or insects.

I've had better luck with dormant seeding than with either fall or spring seeding. But I have fairly unique conditions. We tend to go from highs in the upper 90s to snow in 6 weeks in the fall, and from snow on the ground to highs in the 90s in 4-6 weeks in the spring as well.

BPGreen--those are some interesting points. But has there been actual evidence for each of those statements, or are the advantages only theoretical?

Having done both Spring and Fall seedings here, I've found them both to work extremely well, with minimal effort, and I still would suggest Julie seed her lawn on April 1, which is the recommendation of the local agricultural extensions.

I've read studies on dormant seeding, which is where I learned the term stratification. There are advantages and disadvantages to dormant seeding. From what I've read, it is often a better choice than spring seeding, because it germinates faster so the grass has more time to establish before summer so more of it survives. In some parts of the country, there may be more time and/or summers aren't as hot and dry so spring seeding can be a good choice.

From personal experience, I have much better results with dormant seeding than with either spring or fall seeding, but conditions here are a little different from most of the US.

It makes one wonder though, if there is in fact evidence of a tangible advantage to Winter seeding, why the various agricultural extension offices are not recommending it.

For now, I'll stick with April in our Zone.

Julie I agree with the advice given. You definitely need organic matter in your lawn.

NOW is the time to start "stealing" those curbside bags of leaves and mow them into the lawn. Just when you think the lawn can't take anymore, water them in a little, let the lawn dry and MOW some more in!! LOL!! (Oh heck, you don't have to worry about the lawn completely drying out.)

You get the picture. Leaves are GREAT stuff. They are gardener's gold IMHO. (I already mowed in 29 bags this year and we ain't done with leaf season here in Michigan.)

Also, you could sprinkle a little compost here and there, mainly on the bad areas.

But get those autumn leaves and mulch mow them until the cows come home!! (I spray with a little molasses water to help a little with decomposition but you don't really need to do that. Just get those LEAVES mulched into the lawn.!!)

Over time you'll be VERY happy you did this every autumn. I've been an absolute autumn leaf wacko for decades now and, I'm telling you, you'll be happy if you do this every year.

Good luck.

Hi Julie. I used to live in Beavercreek right on the Greene/Montgomery county line, so I'm interested in your problem from a nostalgic point of view. Back then I was a student and did not have time for the garden except to mow, water, and keep my orchids alive. Plus I was a chemical kind of guy and only mowed and watered to keep the grass alive. But I did have green grass when everyone else in the neighborhood had dead lawns, so I must have done something right.

It looks like your front lawn slopes toward the sun in your picture. What direction does the front of your house face and is there a slope? I'm curious because the dry areas are in front of your tree and that shrub out toward the mailbox. That seems odd. When you water do those spots get the same amount of water as the rest of the yard? Slopes are harder to water than more level lots but it certainly is not impossible.

Regardless of what kind of grass you have, the grass you apparently don't have is Kentucky bluegrass. If you did you likely would not have the bare spots, because KBG will grow like a carpet to fill in every bare spot...as long as it gets water.

I like bpgreen's dormant seeding idea, but what I'm going to suggest is not an ideal complement to dormant seeding. I think the best thing you can do now to prepare your bare spots for spring is to mulch them. It may kill the remaining tendrils of grass you have but they're not doing you much good. First I would scatter as much free coffee grounds as you can get on the bare spots. Then I would cover that with an inexpensive mulch to about about an inch deep. If you are going to go with dave11's idea of seeding on April 1st, by that time your soil under the mulch will be much improved with beneficial microbes. Then before you seed, pull off the mulch so you are seeding at the same contour height as the current turf. The seed I would look for is Kentucky bluegrass varieties called Moonlight, Midnight, and Bedazzled. Mix them together and seed into your bare spots. You might consider scattering the same seed mix throughout the rest of your yard. That isn't an ideal method of spring seeding, but you'll likely get some to germinate and they spread.

Next spring and summer be sure you are getting enough water on your entire lawn if you want it to look good for sale. Water deeply and infrequently in addition to mulch mowing at the mower's highest setting.

If you are going to seed on April 1st, then the first week in March I would fertilize with whatever grain is cheap at your local feed store. Alfalfa pellets are great at seeding time but stay away from any corn products. Apply alfalfa at 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet and moisten the pellets so they melt. By April you will have milked all the goodness you can get from the alfalfa and the soil should be very ready for seed. Scatter the seed, roll it down, and water for 15 minutes at breakfast, lunch, and dinner time for 3 full weeks. KBG takes a little longer to sprout than fescues. When the new grass is 4 inches high, mow it back to your mower's highest setting and start to back off on watering. Eventually you want to back off to once per week with enough water to make it until the following week. Fertilize again on Memorial day and keep it green (with water) in the summer. Spring seedlings rarely make it all the way through the summer but give it a try. You might have to seed again in fall 2009 so keep that in mind. Do NOT worry about crab grass next season. You will have some but just pretend you love it. Take care of it in the early fall when you reseed.

I'm going to post a picture to motivate you. I have lost track of William to ask his permission to post this. I think (hope) he would be proud to have it posted as an example of excellent organic lawn care. He posted the picture to GW a couple years ago. This lawn is 100% organic with no weed killers used at all. I believe the grass is a blend of Kentucky bluegrass. All he does is water infrequently and deeply, mulch mow at his mower's highest setting, and fertilize with grain fertilizers.

{{gwi:96853}}