This is good question, Paul. I'll assume you have the facts correct regarding what Round-Up Ready Soybean is and how prevalent it is.
That said, whether using soybean meal as a lawn fertilizer encourages the use of Round-Up by soybean agribusinesses is an empirical question, not a philosophical one. Perhaps an agricultural economist would know the answer. I don't think very many people use soybean meal as a fertilizer, both in absolute numbers and relative to those who use standard chemical fertilizers. So I am inclined to believe (admittedly, with no hard data one way or another) that the practice of using soybean meal as a lawn fertilizer has little to no effect on how much soybean is grown.

Suppose, contrary to fact, that it did. After all, if more and more people take up organic lawn care, that may have the incentive effects you claim would lead to more use of Round-Up. Interestingly, this has the makings of a classic collective action problem. Individual organic gardeners, each aiming to do what they think is best (using soybean meal instead of chemicals in order to do what is good for the planet, or to keep their family safe, etc.), end up with an outcome (a Round-Up saturated world) which is by their own lights very bad.

The question is whether there is a better option for organic lawn care. One would be to forego lawncare altogether and let things go wild. For most of us this is undesirable if not illegal. Another option would be to use only organically produced grain meals as fertilizers. These may be very expensive and difficult to find. Then there's Milorganite. Despite worries voiced on this board about heavy metals in it, in a world in which many more people tended their lawns organically, perhaps it would be the most environmentally friendly option, all things considered (including incentive effects). I don't know what the answer is. Do you have a suggestion for a more environmentally friendly lawn care regime?

Thanks Mistersubliminal. No, I don't have any suggestions on that, I am still trying to figure out just how much more "environmentally friendly" organic lawn care really is compared to using synthetics. The philosophical question was whether using roundup ready soy to fertilize should create angst in people opposed to using roundup. I would think so, but don't really know, and anyway it is just one small example of the sorts of things that make me wonder whether it really would be a good idea for me to switch to organics beyond just feeling good about it (and potentially for no reason).

I mean, there have been times when after reading this or that I was 100% sold on the idea and ready to start right away. But invariably I would read some more and learn some other things that would cause me to reject the idea outright. So I seesaw.

For example, on the practical side, I have read a lot of comments along the lines of "your lawn will never look better." And I have seen some very nice organic lawns. Great! Let's get started! However, I have also read that I should learn to tolerate weeds as they are inevitable and picking them all is virtually impossible. To make those two ideas compatible it seems that a person would have to define the best looking lawn as one with some weeds in it (which I don't). Is that a fair assessment?

Lawn quality aside, the bigger idea of course is that practicing organic lawncare may reduce the negative effects of maintaining my lawn beyond my own property. I am all for that! - if it is true. But is it really true?

In the case of pesticides I think the answer is very likely yes. Of course the result of avoiding synthetic pesticides is more work maintaining the yard and the need to adopt more modest expectations, at least as far as weeds and say grub damage are concerned. But these are just things to balance, and fairly easy to understand.

But fertilizer is a different story: the "big picture" benefits of using organic fertilizer seem, to me, to be not so easy to demonstrate. For example, Nitrogen is simply an element. If I place it on my lawn in the correct amounts the lawn will use it and it will not run off into streams or leach into the water table. If I apply it too heavily it will do so regardless of whether it was applied in soluble form or in a form that required microbial intervention to release it. So what is the big picture benefit of using organics to provide the nitrogen? Is it simply that organics did not require as much industrial input to produce them? If so OK, but that argument would be even stronger in support of ripping out the lawn entirely and planting a subsistence garden.

I'm sorry, I am rambling. I have a lot more on my mind but will stop here for now. I would be glad to hear any perspective on any of these things.

Thank you,
Paul

Can you define "Round-Up Ready"?

Sorry, crops that have been genetically engineered (by Monsanto, the original patent holder on glyphosate (Round-Up)) to be able to withstand multiple Round-Up applications. Soy is the biggest Round-Up ready crop, but there are some others, and more (most notably corn) are in the works.

First to answer your question about using soybean meal as a lawn fertilizer...will it encourage the use of glyphosate (RoundupÂ)?

Probably not.

As the amount of soybean meal used on lawns is minuscule.

As a matter of fact just finding soybean meal to buy to use on your lawn is a major task. I live in soybean farming country and Cargill has a huge soy meal and oil processing plant in my home town and yet there are no #50 bags of SBM sold in any of the feed stores here. I could buy a rail car load however...(grin)

Just to muddy the water a bit on soybean farming methods. The glyphosate use does not bother me. However, the use of Pyrethroids and Organophosphates pesticides to control soybean aphids does. The high wheel sprayers and crop dusting planes were spraying this stuff like crazy all summer here in Iowa. Soybean Rust coming from South America poses yet another problem that will need more spraying.

And,

Soybeans are currently going thru another genetic change to produce 1% linolenic soybean oil. It's the soy oil without the dreaded trans fat which may soon be outlawed in Chicago.(just like pate faux gras is now illegal in Chicago)

Low linolenic soybeans are the future of soybean farming.

I think it's safe to say that... All the grains used as fertilizer in organic lawn care were grown with farming chemicals.

Thanks Iowa,

I imagine a rail car would last a good long time...

Thanks for your thoughts and background on soybean farming, interesting stuff. FWIW glyphosate does not bother me either, I just used that as an example because I know many people feel differently.

Your last statement really threw me - I hadn't even considered the fertilizer and other pesticide input necessary to grow the grains used for organic lawn care. The whole thing is so complicated, like the pros and cons of electric cars - would you rather burn gasoline or coal? Like Fox Mulder, "I WANT to BELIEVE," but I am having a hard time getting to the point where I feel I have a grasp of the basic facts, which I'll need to be able to conclude that the switch to organics will be worthwhile.

Does anyone know of a good analysis of the environmental impact of maintaining a lawn with organics versus synthetics in a macro sense? I have done a bunch of searches on this topic but what I have found has been too vague to answer my questions (which I guess is why I thought to post here).

Thanks,
Paul

When trying to decide if chemically grown SBM is safe for the lawn remember, chickens and cows eat it and we eat the chickens and cows.

Thank you doopstr, I actually don't have anything against roundup and certainly don't think SBM is bad for the lawn. I was wondering about a few other things, but mostly whether the heavy use of SBM in "organic" lawns causes (or should cause) concern in folks opposed to the use of Round-up.

I'm probably inviting a flame or ten for this idea, but after having spent quite a bit of time reading about organic lawn care out of a nascent desire to try it myself, I keep coming away with the idea that the whole concept is half-baked. Or maybe three quarters baked. Or maybe it's fully baked but hasn't settled yet.... Anyway, I feel this way because there are so many vague justifications for the various "accepted" methods of doing this or that "organically," and potentially unjustifiable inconsistencies in the macro sense of why bother -- all just IMHO of course!

I will keep reading on this. Please believe that I am asking questions here out of a desire to become convinced that organic is the way to go.

It's a little hard to get there, though, when I am told (as I was recently in this forum) that I am "thinking too much" about it.

Sorry to ramble, thanks again for your post!

Paul

For example, on the practical side, I have read a lot of comments along the lines of "your lawn will never look better." And I have seen some very nice organic lawns. Great! Let's get started! However, I have also read that I should learn to tolerate weeds as they are inevitable and picking them all is virtually impossible. To make those two ideas compatible it seems that a person would have to define the best looking lawn as one with some weeds in it (which I don't). Is that a fair assessment?

Not a fair assessment. This argument presumes that you have weeds. If you are using proper lawn care methods, regardless of your fertilizer program, you will not have weeds. If you water weekly, mow at the highest setting, and fertilize regularly, you should not have weeds. If your lawn is thin in the spring (for any of a number of reasons) you WILL have weeds no matter what fertilizer you use. Weed seeds need sunlight to take root. The difference is you are on a chemical program is that you can use herbicide without feeling guilty. If you water daily, no matter what fertilizer program, you WILL have weeds. Weed seeds need daily water to germinate.

Many people want to have a simple spray to solve all their problems. The simple organic spray solution for weeds is vinegar. Many broadleafed weeds will wilt to dust in an hour or two. Even chemicals won't do that (as if vinegar was not a purified chemical). The only problem with vinegar is that it is not selective. Along with broad leafed weeds it will kill grass if any sprays on it. A lot of people really like a tool called a Weed Hound. You place the tool on the weed, step on it, and pluck it out - all while standing. I'll bet GardenWeb is responsible for tens of thousands of sales.

The only thing you need to learn to tolerate with an organic program is a 3-week delay in application before noticing the results. Once you figure out when to apply (3 weeks prior to when you want to see things), it goes easy. I know that in my area things are going to green up anyway in mid April. I apply ORDINARY corn meal in late February to be ready for an early green up in mid March.

You will also have to learn to tolerate having a darker green grass than you can get with synthetics. I don't know why but it really is darker green. I have compared my grass with others in my neighborhood. The organic lawns are darker in color for the same grass variety.

Hey Dchall,

I do have weeds, so presupposing them wasn't a stretch for me. I moved into a house that had tons of weeds. After a few years of trying to get the lawn in shape without resorting to synthetics I finally decided to kill it all off and re-seed with KBG this year. Now that the grass is establishing nicely I have a bunch of new weeds, which is exactly what one would expect. So I don't think it is unreasonable to presume that folks who want to improve their lawns may have some weeds.

I agree with you on all of those cultural practices helping to suppress weeds, but do not believe that those practices, alone, will eradicate weeds. Do you disagree?

You mention having a very dark lawn. Do you use Milorganite? If so the reason for the darkness is likely the heavy concentrations of iron you are laying down. Not a bad thing at all! But that has nothing to do with using organics.

I hope to respond to your very helpful post in that other thread later tonight.

Thanks again!
Paul

P.S., forgot to mention, the vinegar idea has always given me pause. Sure, it is organically derived, but the reason it works is that it is an acid so caustic that it kills on contact. Utterly non-selective and extremely toxic to all plants.

Is that really an improvement over using selective herbicides like those contained in Weed-B-Gon?

So many questions...

P.S., forgot to mention, the vinegar idea has always given me pause. Sure, it is organically derived, but the reason it works is that it is an acid so caustic that it kills on contact. Utterly non-selective and extremely toxic to all plants.

Is that really an improvement over using selective herbicides like those contained in Weed-B-Gon?

So many questions...

DCHALL does not use Milorganite at all. He won't touch it at all. His program is very simple. he just buys mainly ordinary corn meal from animal feed store and feeds his lawn at the rate of 20lbs per 1000 sqft every 3 months or so. His lawn is right on top of limestone rubbles, not very different from what I have. He uses Greensand to help improve the color of the lawn.

Over time, the soil will become more fertile and apparently weeds can't grow in it. I don't have much weeds to speak off and I've never used pre em or anything. if I see them, I just pull them out. I have read that spraying molasses on the lawn will help suck up excess nitrate in the soil and weeds thrive on nitrate. I've sprayed it on my lawn several times and I seem to have less weeds. Then again, i mow at 4 inches making it much harder for weed seeds to germinate.

Frankly, I don't give a hoot about weeds. I grow white dutch clovers and I enjoy their white flowers.

Thank you Lou! I didn't know that Dchall does not use Milorganite. And your statement that he uses greensand - which I don't have any reason to doubt - does certainly go a long way towards explaining the dark color of his lawn.

I'm sorry for this very direct question, but if you really "don't give a hoot" about weeds, why, exactly, did you spray the molasses?

Best,
Paul

Paul,

You're letting "perfect" be the enemy of "better".
If we wait for the perect solutions then we'll be
sure to have nothing but the worst options available.

Hey Decklap, thanks for your post! I would say that what I am looking for is the "better," as perfect is as of now unobtainable, which you apparently believe yourself. Make sense?

With all due respect I think your framing the issue in a way
that can't help but produce conflicting interests. Organic
lawn care or farming or gardening isn't simply a matter of
replacing one input with another and perfect isn't ever
going to come from an outside manufacturer.

Are you sure you're using all the resources available on
your property to their fullest extent?? Unless you have a
verrrry unique issue its hard to imagine why you couldn't
address your lawn needs with clippings and brewing
tea from your own homemade compost which you would
control completely. Granted that may be more work than
you'd like to do but deciding to sustain an unnatural
construct like a lawn means we have to accept some
of the constrictions that come along with it like extra
work or retailed products that may or may not be as
karma free as we'd like them to be.

I do think you can have perfect but you'll have to unhitch
your wagon from what is commercially available.

paulinct, I guess that the best place to start is with the statement that "nothing happens until someone buys something." Commercial agriculture is intensive (the greatest yield from the smallest acreage) and the demand for an agriculture (by)product will drive many diverse industries like plant breeding, chemicals manufacture and labor saving machinery- each with its own, and sometimes unexpected consequences. Sometimes we come a full circle and are back to the same point from which we were trying to get away. Take pyrethrum, an insecticide derived from a plant and having the three great benefits ie deadly to insects in small doses, with little residual and not harmful to mammalian life. The product is in heavy demand and has been 'tweaked' into pyrethroids - stronger, longer-lasting and consequently more harmful to mammals (the danger is in the dosage). Demand has brought on the development of products that exhibit the same undesirable properties for which others were banned.
I have no doubt that the same fate is in store for the 'organic' concept in horticulture. Florida has committed to a facility for producing ethanol from corn but as far as I know the state does not produce the crop significantly. The demand will encourage more production, more fertilizer use and yes, more glyphosate use. Or there will be competition for the product and organic lawn care might be severely stressed. Has the price of corn and its by products gone up again recently?
I am quite sure that I will not be putting down dried cow pats as fertilizer on my front lawn and I am equally confident that I do not have to apply synthetic fertilizers or combination products every eight weeks to have a presentable and acceptable 'front lawn'. But I do find myself redefining terms which I thought I had mastered long ago.
What is a weed?
What is organic?
What is the difference between mutation and genetic engineering?
Thank you very much for a thought stimulating post.

.....and this morning I learned a new term, DDGS, dried distillers' grains with solubles. It is a by product of ethanol (and Bourbon whisky) manufacture. It is being fed to goats to ascertain its ability to produce live weight gain. Does this measure up to the standards of the organic concept? I do not know but the goat farmer proclaims that it it is profitable...the ultimate concept of green?.

I wouldn't waist one single thought or one minute worrying about the implications of using SBM or any of the grains for lawn care. The amount is so miniscule it is not even a niche market for the product. The market is now driven by biofuels, and that is what you should worry about. Just watch your grocery bill and you will get the idea real fast.

I think texas-weed has it right. Even if ammonium fertilizers were to
disappear tomorrow there is no particular reason to think grain based
fertilizers would suddenly rush into the void and certainly not to the extent that it would account for a substantial increase in the amount of acreage
given to soy. And even if that weren't the case I think its more unlikely still that grain meals could compete on price or application rates with ferts made from by products like bone, blood, or feather meal. I think you need only look at the "Organic Choice" product Scotts started to market recently to get an idea of what commercial non-chemical fertilizers are going to be.

I think texas-weed has it right.

Thanks for the KUDO, here is another analogy:

Imagine the whole organic lawn care market going to St. Louis Mo to the Budweiser headquarters office and say:

We would like to purchase a keg of beer packaged in those single serving ketchup thingies like you get at Mikey Dees, and we want a discount for a volume purchase".

Sorry I could not help myself, but that is what we are talking about here.

RoundUP ready cotton update!!!!!

I'm living in a hotel in the Texas Panhandle for my job. The news up here is that RoundUp ready cotton has new problems. The big one is convoluted but here is the logic.

1. Plant RUR cotton one year
2. Plant a rotation crop the next year
2a. Volunteer RUR cotton sprouts in among the rotation crop
2b. If the rotation crop is tended, it is not tended with the same chemicals and schedule needed for the cotton.
2c. Cotton boll weevils find the unsprayed cotton and multiply
2d. Adjacent cotton farmers who are in the cotton part of the rotation are finding more boll weevils in the traps than they used to.

Thus, RUR cotton leads to more boll weevils. That is certain to lead to more insecticide sold by Monsanto. Hmmmm.

No I don't use Milorganite.
The cultural practices I listed way up there on this thread are not all you need. I still get broadleaf weeds in the shadier parts of my yard lawn. I have parts of the lawn that never see direct sun. In the winter the sun is too low and in the summer the canopy of trees is too dense. Those areas are the thinnest and get broadleaf weeds every year.

I'm not shooting for perfect. I'm shooting for low hassle. Since I am not always within easy driving distance of home, I have to have a low hassle plan.

I have not used greensand in a couple years. With a drought we never needed it. Last summer gave is 50 inches of rain in 100 days. That was enough to rinse the acidity out of our soil and yellow the grass. I tried to use some old greensand last weekend and it was soggy. Maybe this weekend. At this point it probably won't make any difference to the color of the lawn but it get my wife off my back for leaving the bag in her way all summer.

Thus, RUR cotton leads to more boll weevils. That is certain to lead to more insecticide sold by Monsanto. Hmmmm.

It's a great job if you can get it.

I've noticed the Scott's four-step people do actually need the insecticide because they've used it before, disturbed the balance in the soil, and caused pathogenic insects to have a better chance to dominate.

There's another great job if you can get it. Cause a problem and then sell the stuff that fixes it.

I have to admit, even before I was organic I didn't use widespread herbicides or insecticides. Something always seemed wrong about doing that. Now that I have a faint clue as to what I'm doing, that something is much more apparent.