CGM is a preemergent, so it only stops new weeds from sprouting, and doesn't kill existing ones. In fact, I think it would even act as a fertilizer for those.

I think there's a type of vinegar that is stronger than regular household vinegar that can be used to kill weeds, but be careful with it, because it will also kill grass.

The only other thing I know of is to hand pull, or use a weed hound if the weeds have taproots.

I think that putting corn gluten on weeds that already exist would make them grow faster, as it is a slow-release fertilizer as well as a pre-emergent.

But, we had SO many weeds in our yard and we have great success pulling the weeds by hand and then using the corn gluten as pre-emergent. It really does prevent mosst of the seeds from germinating.

Now, our neighbors thought we were a bit crazy, as they have no issue with using weed killer. But, I hate to use it as we have have small children and cats that are on the lawn all the time. It gives me a peace of mind.

I second the idea of using a Weed Hound! The first summer I had one I used it alot. Last summer I only used it 2 or 3 times. It works.

Also, mowing high (3 inches plus) will help too.

The use of CGM as a preemergent weed control was studied at Iowa State University.There is a Prof there who patented the process and now licenses CGM production. If you go to the ISU website and look at the info on CGM. You will find that CGM needs many seasons of application to inhibit most of the weeds. It can help, but it's not a "magic bullet" to stop your weeds.

IMHO...I think given the cost, CGM is a pretty expensive way to control lawn weeds. And, I think the jury is still out on how effective CGM is on turf grass weeds.

Given the recent huge increases in the market price of corn this fall...CGM will be alot more expensive next year and possibly even harder to find.

Might be some follow up products on the market this spring coming to bring this price into range for everyone. We will just have to wait and see what does come on the market first. But you bet also it will have a patent on it also.

I finally hired a lawn service to get rid of all the weeds. I loathe using herbicides and pesticides because I am a bird lover. Chemicals like that are terrible for wildlife.

But the weeds just got out of hand, and my neighbors weren't happy. Frankly, neither was I. It didn't help that the builder took off all the top soil and left me with compacted clay that nothing will grow in!!!! Ought to be a law against that!

Fact is, you are going to get weeds. It's just not nature's way to have only one type plant growing (like a weed free lawn). It's definitely fighting mother nature and of course mother nature wins!

So, what I'm doing is gradually replacing most of my lawn and planting ground cover and flower beds. It is a slow process. I am also trying to build up my soil (now that I've ariated and limed it). I'm spreading good weed free dirt on it this spring. I don't dare spread compost on it for fear of weeds. Maybe one day I'll get so good at composting I'll kill all the weed seeds and then I can.

I think it's the only solution.
Michele

When the forsythia start to bloom is the time to apply.

WHAT IS WEED FREE DIRT? I NEVER EVEN HEARD OF WEED FREE SOIL. ALL SOIL CONTAINS WEED SEED.

Here are the three rules for growing great grass.

2. Water deeply and infrequently. Deeply means at least an hour in every zone, all at once. Infrequently means monthly during the cool months and no more than weekly during the hottest part of summer. If your grass looks dry before the month/week is up, water longer next time. Deep watering grows deep, drought resistant roots. Infrequent watering allows the top layer of soil to dry completely which kills off many shallow rooted weeds.

3. Mow at the highest setting on your mower. Most grasses are the most dense when mowed tall. Bermuda, centipede, and bent grasses are the most dense when mowed at the lowest setting on your mower. Dense grass shades out weeds and uses less water when tall. Dense grass feeds the deep roots you're developing in 1 above.

4. Fertilize regularly. I fertilize 4 times per year using organic fertilizer. Which fertilizer you use is much less important than numbers 1 and 2 above.
   

If you'll do some searching in the lawns forum, you'll see several former skeptics testifying to their newfound satisfaction with these rules.

There are two kinds of weeds, summer weeds and winter weeds. When you apply CGM now, you are really taking out the weeds that you won't even see until early spring. These weeds are also known as wildflowers. The way they grow is to sprout in September, set a tiny root and top for all of the winter, and then in spring they leap upward to sprout their flowers. Then they die for the rest of the summer. Summer weeds, crabgrass being the most popular, are usually grassy. If you'll apply your preemergent when the forsythia are in bloom in your area, that is supposed to work to keep the seedlings from developing a root. If you have a weak (thin) turf, you'll need to reapply preemergent again in May or so.

I've never heard of weed free dirt either. Seed is sometimes as small as dust and blows everywhere, all the time. Furthermore I don't have much patience for complaints about contractors scraping away the topsoil. My "topsoil" is -1.0 inch to +4.0 inches of pure white limestone dust and rubble (I need to post pictures sometime) on top of a solid limestone dome the size of most cities. Our native pH is near 8, and the only fertility in our soil is what we apply. Still it's not hard to compensate by applying organic fertilizer in normal quantities. I've seen strip mine tailings, which lay dormant for 40 years, reclaimed in one season by using organic fertilizer. So I'm convinced there is no soil that cannot be fixed, fixed fast, and inexpensively. You just need to know how.

SUMMER WEED AND WINTER WEEDS YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING RIGHT HOW ABOUT ANNUAL WEEDS AND PERRINIAL WEEDS I THINK YOU SHOULD GO READ SOME ARTICULES OR SOME GOOD LAWN AND GARDEN BOOKS

Terryb--take the capslock off. And find some of the keys commonly referred to as punctuation marks.

All caps is considered shouting, and a complete lack of punctuation just makes it hard to read.

According to your profile, you registered 5 years ago, so you should already know these things.

terryb: You're right that annual and perennial is another way to classify plants, so is pinnate and palmate, but the plants that grow as weeds in the summer turf are both annual and perennial as are the winter/spring weeds. There's no need to distinguish the annuals from the perennials to make this point.

Yes there is a need people want to see the right posting of information. And I stand by what I posted.

Terry, why is there a need to distinguish bettween annual and perennial weeds when the point that was being made had to do with the timing of preemergent application? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm trying to understand your point.

It seems to me that that's an important distinction to make if you're deciding whether to kill certain weeds at a certain time. For example, if you've got a lot of crabgrass and it's going into late fall, it doesn't make much sense to go to a lot of effort to kill the crabgrass, since it will die soon, and not return in the spring (except from seed).

But if you're trying to determine when to apply a preemergent, the key differentiating factor is when the seeds of the weeds germinate.

I have a question for both you and david. You both said there isn't any weed free dirt. I've never seen anyplace advertise something like that, but would it be possible for someplace to heat soil to a certain point to kill the seeds? I don't know if it would be practical, and it seems to me that you'd end up with soil that was sterile, since the heating process would also probably kill microbes. I'm just wondering if there might be companies that do something like that in order to sell weed free soil.

terryb

I'm curious what 'follow-up' products you are talking about.

Pre-emergent products? Tell me more!

bpgreen, Why I posted what I did was I never heard of summer and winter weeds. Just what I posted about being called annual and perrennial weed. Another thing I do know all to well the difference. Also with the bought soil I have done plenty of test on different companies bagged soil. What I have seen is plenty of weeds sprout inside the bags once water was poured into it, mixed and excess water remove and bag wrapped back up at the top but not tightly to allow air in. Sterile soil can be bought and yes it is done by heat process but that is used for some different types of plants where they want to contol what is put into the soil. It would be to costly for our lawns for sure. Just like weed free topsoil I really haven't seen much of that most of the time they see the weeds sprouting they just pull them out then you buy the soil and end up with a area of weeds where you just put the new soil. I have seen this time after time.

Thanks for the clarifications and the information on bagged soil. It sounds like any process to kill all the weeds would be pretty impractial on a large scale.

I agree that there is no such thing as weed free dirt...

I understood what David meant by winter weeds and summer weeds.

Well being in the lawn and property maintenance business for 31 years we don't refer to weeds as winter and summer weeds. And I never heard them referred to as that. Sorry People!!!!!!

When we're talking about preemergent weed control, it makes sense to talk about the seasonality of the weeds, because there are two times to apply (fall and spring). When you apply preemergent now (or earlier in the fall), you are controlling the weeds that will sprout now and spring up in the spring. I called those "winter weeds," which is, perhaps, an unfortunate choice of words. Most of these 'winter weeds' are annuals, but it didn't make sense to distinguish them that way because of the possible confusion with other popular annual weeds which only occur in the spring/summer. So anyway, that's why I said it the way I did.

It is possible to sterilize soil with heat, but as soon as you expose it to the air again, here come the seeds.

A spray of weed control once in while is not significant in the big picture, but timing is most important.

or simply follow the three rules for growing great grass listed above.

I have to second (third?) the importance of the cultural practices David listed in his 3 "rules" for lawns.

I don't use any weed killer, but I mow high, water deeply and infrequently and toss coffee grounds on as often as I'm allowed (my wife objects to the smell when it's hot out).

My next door neighbor uses weed killers, waters daily, mows lower than I do when I'm scalping the lawn. I've probably got fewer weeds in my entire lawn than my neighbor has in the strip running along the fence. The weeds I do have, I manage with the weed hound.

Ever hear plants referred to as C3 or C4?

No. What's that?

Sorry bp I don't play by no rules when it comes to lawn care. My customers love what they been seeing for ever in the day. I'm my own person and I don't have to acknowledge another persons post. And futher more what makes one persons post any better then the next? Most agree just to disagree as seen here. Just cause one person writes text and FAQ's doesn't make it right or wrong it's the difference of opinion. Some have this soil while others have that soil. And no matter what people have it is what they have.

This is my first post on this forum because I don't like the separation but I can't resist. Many of the people that participate here were not happy with their commercial lawn care service. I know that I wasn't happy. When I determined that I knew more than my lawn care service, I fired them. I don't feel the same way about regulars that participate in the Lawn Care forum and here. I think I can learn something from them.

-Deerslayer

The weeds I have in New England are crab grass, witch grass and one that looks like a carrot top. What I have noticed is that the older (as in not recently disturbed) soil, weeds are not an issue. Dandelions donÂt seem to thrive in my yard. Purslane in the veg garden, but i eat that.

tumblenes, The thing with grabrass is to pull it out if you can before it goes to seed. I have done test just to see the results from crabgrass in an area of bare soil in my yard. I'm talking over a years time also here. I took an area that was 2"-4" to fill in with top soil and 4' in diameter. After filling it in that early summer and left it go until the next summer the crabgrass took off between that time. All I did mostly was clip the crabgrass with hand clippers. After pulling out what crabgrass I could after that period of time, I reseeded that area with tall fescue to see what happens to the same area with an overseeding. The thing is also here no crabgrass is in that area of the yard. Was it weed seed in the air? might of been. Was it in the topsoil that I brought in? might of been. I have a friend that uses weed killer all over his property where he has stone driveways. All he does is keeps spraying it. The seed on the weeds he never ever thinks of getting rid of first. So the results will be is next year spray it again. Just can't figure out why he would rather spray weed killer then clip the seed off the weeds and leave them die or pull them out. All it is is crabgrass at that.

Before going crazy and blowing time money and effort to control weeds ask yourself why you want to get rid of the weeds. What are your expectations?

I think cultural practices are the best method to eventually overcome weeds by building good soil and dense grass. Tall weeds normally don't like to be cut down and short weeds don't like to be shaded out by taller grass. Weeds can tell you about whats going on with your soil, if you have selected the right grasss type as well as if you have enough light etc..
For broadleaf weeds I really like 20% vineger for spot treatment in beds and in the lawn. It kills dandelions and the like qucikly. MY personal battle right now is Johnson grass in my backyard, which I seem to be slowly winning by mowing pulling and spot treatment of vinegerif it is in bunches.
Of all the choices I prefer repeated mowing as it seems to weaken the johnsongrass and improve my turf. other than the unequal growing rate compared to my grass I don't see much harm in the weeds I have.
Expecting a weed free yard all the time is not realistic. besides, weeds are most often trying to give you a clue.

As tough as thistle is I took care af a lot of it this past summer with vinagar after 2 applications. But it has to be done on a hot sunny day here in Pa. And also at the same time I added a 1/4 cup of dish liquid to it. I used it at full strength.

Terryb--I really don't know what you meant with your response to me on Wednesday.

I think it was in response to my comments on the importance of and my personal observations of cultural parctices in controlling weeds, but it is a little difficult to tell from what you wrote. I don't recall referencing any FAQ or any different types of soil. But I do remember referencing some "rules" for lawncare.

You asked what makes one person's post better than another person's post. I won't answer that question, because I think it's the wrong question to ask. The real question is: What makes one post better than another post?"

I think there are a number of things that contribute to a good post.

One is that it is well written. I know that even with the message preview, it's easy to make typos, but there's a difference between a few typos and poor grammar and bad spelling. Since the internet is an international meeting place, I make allowances for those whose first language is not English, but poorly written posts drop down my list in terms of credibility.

Another is if I have seen the same results, or, if I haven't, if I can replicate them.

I also tend not to respond well when somebody refers to us all as "Sorry People." I don't consider myself a sorry person, and don't appreciate being called one. If you meant to say, "Sorry, people" instead of "Sorry People" it goes back to my comment on the importance of grammar.

Admittedly, I will tend to give more credence to somebody whose posts have been helpful and informative in the past than to someone whose posts I haven't read. Having said that, I've disagreed with David (I pick him, because you seem most upset that I agreed with him). And I think you've given some good advice in this thread (especially the crabgrass advice and the vinegar advice).

bpgreen, It was not intended to be or typed as Sorry People or sorrybp. it was intended to be Sorry, People!!! and also sorry, bp

Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping that was what you meant.

Vintageways, Right now all I will state here is that after years of studying CGM & CGH. We might finally see something on the market very soon. But it also does look promising from what I'm told by a Manufacture of Organic Turf Products. This really isn't an easy process for any manufacture to go through due to the way that CGM & CGH can affect our lawns. The first that I was aware of any of these studies being done was back in 1991. A customer of mine had his brother in from out of state. At the time he was on summer vacation from college, so I myself think this is a long over due process.

Terryb--what does CGH stand for? I'm familiar with CGM for corn gluten meal, but I don't think I've seen CGH before.

bpgreen, It stands for Corn Gluten Hydrolysate.

Thanks. I'll have to read up on that.

Liquefied CGM? I believe hydrolysates are acted on by enzymes to partially digest them.

The issue with Corn Gluten Hydrolysate is one of stability. Once it is water soluble it has a tendency to leech out. Since CGM isnÂt water soluble it may be more effective with turf grass. This is being worked onÂ

The CGM properties were discovered by accident at Iowa State, I think they were using corn meal as a medium to support a particular turf grass fungi to observe how it interacted with grass seed germination; and as a control a plot was started without fungi, just corn meal & grass seed. Evidently the fungi consumed the proteins that inhibited root growth and the grass grew; the control without the fungi root growth was inhibited, the seeds sprouted, but the root didnÂt develop so the seedling soon dried out.

And in post-holiday spirit, there is a rumor that cgm with turkey manure is more effective!

Here is a link that might be useful: cgm