Adamdeere,

I'm probably pretty close to you. (East Nottingham twp, just outside Oxford)

It's too late to overseed around here. But you could try dormant seeding thin spots sometime in late January or early February. The seed won't germinate until the spring temps warm the soil up. But the repeated freeze, thaw cycle will work the seed down into the cracks of the soil where they'll be ready to germinate in the spring.

You'll not have as much germination doing it this way as you would during fall seeding. But it's better than trying to plant seed in the spring and then watching your new KBG seedlings shrivel in the summer heat.

Since this is the organic lawn care forum and not the regular lawn care forum, I'm assuming that you would be against using a commercially produced synthetic fertilizer. That being the case, It's probably too late to put an organic fertilizer down that has the quick release properties that you need to fertilize at this time of year.

(I know others have suggested some animal blood and other byproducts, but for the average homeowner in this area that has at least a third of an acre -- and more commonly an acre or two of land -- gathering and applying such products to such large tracts of land is impractical.)

If you are like me and use organic-based fertilizers most of the year but are willing to use a fast-release synthetic fertilizer late in the fall, you can still do so with good effect. My yard is still dark green. Most of my neighbors' lawns have entered dormancy.

I rounded-up half of my backyard this year (and my entire front yard last year) and reseeded with KBG like you. The backyard project this year is like yours at about 1-inch high.

Don't worry too much. The lawn will be great in the spring. But you're reallly gonna LOVE it in the fall. You're not going to see the real dark green KBG color until the grass has had a year to get established.

Turf_toes, They do have liquid organic nitrogen on the market, it makes no sense in using synthetic products on the lawn if you are already using organic products.

terryb,

You care to elaborate? Specifically for someone who is dealing with an acre of land or two?

I would differ with you in one respect, that failing to have an equivalent quick release fertilizer that is readily available and easily applied, it does make sense to consider a urea, which is found readily in nature.

I understand some folks objections to urea. But I also apply lyme to my yard. The same definitions that make urea not an organic, also make lyme 'unorganic.'

For what it's worth, I simply mentioned urea, much like some organic folks mention organic solutions on the regular lawn care forum, as a possible alternate solution to his situation.

Please provide details of your quick-release organic fertilizers suitable for application in Pennsylvania in late December/early January.

turf_toes, Why are you using lime? Turfgrasses are actually highly tolerant of a wide range of soil acidity and alkalinity. But adding lime regularly will make the soil more and more alkaline, eventually damaging turfgrasses by tying up nutrients in the soil and making them unavailable to the plants. Have you had soil tested or taken a soil test to confirm that your soil is acidic? Even with the organic nitrogen it contains 10% nitrogen that I have. It is mixed as follows 1-2 quarts of product to a mininum of 5 gallons of water per acre and since it is organic it can be sprayed every month as needed. I would do the applications as an as needed basis due to the visual apperance of the turf. The thing about urea is you are adding salts to the soil which isn't organic. BTW these are just my thoughts.

I'm adding lyme because the soil test indicated that it needed it.

You've made an assumption that is not based on reality (That I'm applying lyme like it is a calendar event).

In any event, we should get back on topic.

Could you share your previously mentioned knowledge of various fast-release fertilizers that you previously mentioned that would be appropriate for application in late December and early January in Pennsylvania?

The basic math of the solution you've made up doesn't add up mathematically.

At 10 percent nitrogen, you would have to apply far more than five gallons to reach the one pound of nitrogen per 1000 square feet that is required for an appropriate applicaton.

Terryb,

I see where I misunderstood your post.

You're applying this application monthly. Whereas I'm more inclinded to not fertilize at all during the summer months and to apply fertilizer in the cooler fall months.

I suppose your solution, if applied that regularly, could meet the 3-4 pounds of nitrogen needed annually by a cool season grass. The question remains though, what is this mystery product?

Finally, as for the salt being added to the soil of my lawn by a single annual application of urea, I guess I could have a salt problem in about 3000 years. I'm sure I'll have other problems to deal with by then.

"They do have liquid organic nitrogen on the market, it makes no sense in using synthetic products on the lawn if you are already using organic products."

TerryB,

Specifically, which nitrogen product are you referring to? On the list below, only urea is organic and it's a synthetic organic compound. Ammonium nitrate and ammonium sulfate are inorganic salts. Ammonia and urea are not salts. Urea ammonium nitrate and UAN based solutions are liquid forms of nitrogen. Another possibility is urea dissolved in water.

-Deerslayer

Common Nitrogen Products
Ammonia (82-0-0) Â Used as an applied fertilizer or as a building block for other fertilizer products. Stored as a liquid under pressure or refrigerated, it becomes a gas when exposed to air and is injected into the soil.

Urea (46-0-0) Â A solid nitrogen product typically applied in granular form. It can be combined with ammonium nitrate and dissolved in water to make liquid nitrogen fertilizer known as urea ammonium nitrate or UAN solution.

Ammonium nitrate (34-0-0) Â Another solid nitrogen product typically applied in granular form is valued for its use on pasture lands and specialty crops such as citrus.

Ammonium sulfate (21-0-0) Â A solid product that is largely a byproduct of coke ovens, where sulfuric acid is used to remove ammonia evolved from the coal.

Nitrogen solutions  Typically, a combination of urea and ammonia nitrate dissolved in water to form a highly soluble liquid fertilizer, typically containing 28 or 32 parts nitrogen.

Hey Deerslayer

In other threads in this forum terryb highly recommends a product called Turf Tea Magic. The product is manufactured by Smart World Organics, a company whose offices are located in west central Florida. Sold in 1, 5 & 55 gallon containers through many distributors via the web, it's advertised to have an 8-8-8 equivalency to chemical fertilizers. Pricing in 1 gallon containers ranges from about $34.95 to $49.95 per gallon plus shipping. One gallon is advertised to cover 5000-10000 sqft. To purchase enough to cover an acre would require somewhere between 4-1/2 to 9 gallons.

My opinion is that this product, while it appears to be a high quality product, for the average homeowner, particularly folks with a large parcel of land, is a very expensive alternative to other organic products.

Perhaps for a one time use in late fall to get N to the soil quickly it would be a good idea, but for normal periodic feeding of your microherd, simple feed grains will provide similar results for far less expense.

Dan

One possible organic source for nitrogen would be poultry manure. I don't think I'd use it in a spray, but it's a pretty high N source and pretty fast release.

Here is my curiosity with this thread: is a fertilizer "quick release" just becuase its liquid?

Here is why I ask. I started using "quick release" nitrogen fertilizers as my last application in the fall based on university studies that said cool season grasses do best with such an application over slow release products. Organic fertilizers, which I use my three other feedings of the year don't really do the same thing because as the weather cools the action of the microherd slows (there is some debate as to how much) and doesn't break down to any great extent organic fertilizers into forms useable by the grass until warmer weather arrives in the spring.

So, in that most organic fertilizers are in a form that must be broken down by soil organisms into a form that is useable by grass roots, wouldn't liquid organic fertilizer (minus urea) suffer the same problem. Just because you get organic compounds quickly into the soil, it doesn't automatically equate that the microherd is going to be active enough, becuase of the colder temps, to break it down into chemical components for use by the grass roots, i.e. actual nitrogen? IN other words, its not "quick release" as that term is used by the university studies that found quick release chemical fertilizers gave grass the shot of nutrients that helped it store nutrients for the winter and quicker recovery and greenup in the spring?

But, I am not familiar with the product in question. So I am asking. But, it seems like this thread has not been discussing apples to apples. In other words, a liquid organic fertilizer has been discussed as if it was a quick release source of Nitrogen. Is it?

rcnaylor,

That's an excellent question. Normally, the organic fertilizers that I've used depend on soil processes to break it down before it becomes available to the lawn. With soil temperatures where they are now, my question is how active are the microbes that normally perform this process?

I agree too guys. I don't use anything on my lawn this time of the year for that very reason, I do all my feeding when it's warm. I begin once the lawn begins turning green in the spring & do the feeding periodically all throughout the growing season. My lawn's dormant now & I'm taking a break for the winter. But I do have to say that now that I'm feeding the microherd instead of (formerly) using synthetics, my lawn stays green much longer than the rest of the neighborhood.

rcnaylor - You make an excellent point. Why would the application in a liquid form be any different than a dry form? Either way, the microbes need to do their thing to make the nutrients available for uptake to the grassplants.

Back to the OP's question:
"Is there anything I can do now, overseed or fertilize, or would that be useless? Any advice would be appreciated."

Turf toes hit the nail on the head. It's too late for overseeding & realistically for fall fertilizer applications too. OK to do some dormant seeding, then begin regular organic feeding come spring.

Dan

"In other threads in this forum terryb highly recommends a product called Turf Tea Magic."

Dan, thanks for the clarification. I took the phrase "liquid organic nitrogen" literally. Turf Tea Magic is "liquid organic fertilizer".

Adam, even though it's been in the 40s and 50s here, I'm not going to do anything to my lawn until spring. The soil microbes that convert protein to nitrogen are not very active at these temperatures and below. Your November fertilizer application is more than adequate until spring.

-Deerslayer

No that is incorrect I never said anything about Turf Tea Magic. I said Turf Tea. And also when I said about a Liquid Organic Nitrogen that is what I'm talking about as a stand alone product not turf tea. Another thing I see is OKCDAN you still didn't answer my other post for your dime stamp lot that you own, you didn't bring nothing to the table so far where is it??? And also as far as chicken manure for everyones information it isn't high in nitrogen unless you consider 4% high?? One other thing is with the 10% organic nitrogen I stated that IT could be every month as needed. I for one wouldn't put money out on my lawn in the winter time LOL!!!

TerryB -- regarding the liquid organic nitrogen that you use, what's the source of the nitrogen? What's the brand name of the product?

-Deerslayer

Deerslayer, I don't see where I said I use it. I said that I have it. Also if you do a search on E-bay you will get all kinds of different hits on liquid organic nitrogen. I was just stating what is on the market for usage.

Terryb,

I'd be interested if you could provide a few examples. I think it would be helpful, since you said you knew of such products, if you could provide details.

I'm very interested myself to see what these products actually contain. To my knowledge, there really are not any quick-release organic nitrogen products.

(At least in the sense that the nitrogen is readily available to the grass without any action by soil microbes to convert it first)

If there are, as you write, such 'organic nitrogen' products, I'm really interested in knowing what is its source of 'Nitrogen.'

I'm hopeful that you'll provide details so as to prove my belief to be incorrect.

I searched eBay and found this:

Metanaturals Organic Nitrogen 16-0-0 combines the power of North Atlantic kelp, and plant and animal composts to supply a powerful organic nitrogen field. This is a liquid plant food essential for membrane permeability and for promoting root and leaf development. Helps build green growth throughtout the plant's life cycle. Formulated to provide a fast boost for plants with calcium deficiencies. Completely soluble for improved nutrient uptake in either soil or hydroponics.

Metanaturals Organic Nitrogen is concentrated. Approximately 1 to 2 teaspoons per gallon of water is all that's needed. Less if foliar feeding.

Contains:
Poultry and dairy compost, soybean meal, feather meal, blood meal, alfalfa meal, kelp and milk whey.

Even though blood meal is a fast acting organic fertilizer, I wouldn't classify Metanaturals Organic Nitrogen as quick release nitrogen. Just my opinion...

-Deerslayer

Deerslayer, Re-read the post I don't see one place in here where I said anything about a quick release nitrogen- or a fast acting fertlizer. I don't appreciate the assumptions. So the source of the 10% Organic Nitrogen is from Mined Chilian Nitrate.

TerryB, reread my last post. Where did I say that you said that the product was quick release? Turf Toes, OkCDan, BPGreen, and RCNaylor all referenced quick release nitrogen in their posts.

BTW, Chilean Nitrate (aka Sodium Nitrate, NaNO3) doesn't have carbon in its structure. It is an inorganic compound. However, it has a partial exemption for use in organic farming (along with other inorganic compounds). No more than 20% of the total nitrogen applied to an organic crop can come from Chilean Nitrate.

-Deerslayer

LOL I think you are wrong due to the fact that what I have is approve by the USDA and the NOP at 10% Total Nitrogen. Due to the chelation and addition of organic carbons added to the product.

For those of you who are interested in learning more about Chilean Nitrate, below is a link to a petition requesting the removal of its exemption status for use in organic farming. The petition contains a good deal of information about the compound.

Chilean Nitrate

Many people don't realize that the list of approved substances for use in organic farming is determined by a committee. The list can be changed. Also, many people make the false assumption that if a compound is on the list, it's organic. Not so, there are a number of inorganic substances on the list. Chilean Nitrate is one of them.

I have yet to find anyone that has an "organic" home lawn as defined by the National Organic Standards Board. For example, it's a requirement that all seeds used in an organic operation must be grown organically. Who has a lawn grown from organically grown grass seed? Another violation is applying nonorganically grown feed grains as fertilizer. This is because nonorganically grown feed grains contain pesticide residues. I'll stop there. I'm getting way off topic.

-Deerslayer

"Due to the chelation and addition of organic carbons added to the product."

TerryB, where did you find that BS? You need to do some homework.

-Deerslayer

Deerslayer, You might want to do some product searching. Or Some USDA searching. Your stuck in your mode which is fine with me. But don't tell me the products that are made and sold world wide are BS. And one other thing that you are completely wrong about, that I have seen in your one post it's that no more then 30% Chilian Nitrate can be added to a product. Now prove me different.

TerryB, I said that your statement "Due to the chelation and addition of organic carbons added to the product." was BS not a particular product. Reread my post.

Where did I say that no more than 30% of Chilean Nitrate can be added to a product? I said "No more than 20% of the total nitrogen applied to an organic crop can come from Chilean Nitrate." Reread my post.

"Now prove me different." Are you satisfied?

"But don't tell me the products that are made and sold world wide are BS." I bet you buy products advertised on late night TV. LOL

I am very familiar with the NOP regulations. I'll post a link to the regulations if you would like to learn more. Just let me know.

-Deerslayer

Deerslayer, I'm saying 30% yeah post the link!!!And BTW don't post some link without updated info on it. I don't want to read something for years gone by.

TerryB, the following quote is your post:

"And one other thing that you are completely wrong about, I have seen in your one post it's that no more then 30% Chilian Nitrate can be added to a product."

Your statement isn't clear. What are you trying to say? What am I "wrong about"? Please post coherently.

Here is a link to the NOP Index at the USDA web site:

NOP Index

Below is the relevant section of the regulations (see item g):

§ 205.602 Nonsynthetic substances prohibited for use in organic crop production.

The following nonsynthetic substances may not be used in organic crop production:

(a) Ash from manure burning.

(b) Arsenic.

(c) Calcium chloride, brine process is natural and prohibited for use except as a foliar spray to treat a physiological disorder associated with calcium uptake.

(d) Lead salts.

(e) Potassium chloride â unless derived from a mined source and applied in a manner that minimizes chloride accumulation in the soil.

(f) Sodium fluoaluminate (mined).

(g) Sodium nitrate - unless use is restricted to no more than 20% of the crop's total nitrogen requirement; use in spirulina production is unrestricted until October 21, 2005.

(h) Strychnine.

(i) Tobacco dust (nicotine sulfate).

Here is something else to consider:

National Organic Standards Board, Addendum Number 27
The use of Chilean Nitrate (16-0-0) in Organic crop production is limited to not more than 20 percent of total nitrogen supplied to a crop. The producerÂs Farm Plan shall contain specific provisions and strategies designed to substantially reduce the use of Chilean Nitrate over time. The amount and timing of these reductions will be consistent with documented site-specific constraints. The Farm Plan will seek to explore each and every alternative to the routine use of Chilean Nitrate in the farming system. These alternatives include, but are not limited to: composting, improvement of compost, leguminous cover crops, interplanting, rotations, microbial enhancements, animal manures, varietal selections, planting date alterations, and reducing amounts of applied supplemental nitrogen. The timing and efficiency of Chilean Nitrate applications shall be optimized and documented in the Farm Plan. Certifiers will monitor progress in the reduction of Chilean Nitrate use and will decertify farmers that develop long term dependence on this material. Strong farmer commitment, aggressive action, and measurable results are all necessary elements of this special use of Chilean Nitrate.

-Deerslayer

Yeah but here in the following post I stated, what I have is 10% so it's still less then what the NOP is looking for. I'm very aware of what the USDA-NOP is looking at as far as Approved Organic Products. (And also as far as chicken manure for everyones information it isn't high in nitrogen unless you consider 4% high?? One other thing is with the 10% organic nitrogen I stated that IT could be every month as needed. I for one wouldn't put money out on my lawn in the winter time LOL!!!)

TerryB, if your product is 10-0-0 and its active ingredient is Chilean Nitrate and it's a liquid, water was probably added. That's why the final product composition is less than 16-0-0. Are you aware that you can purchase urea based fertilizer products that are not (46-0-0)? Probably not...

In this thread, you've exhibited your lack of knowledge of chemistry, fertilizers, and the National Organic Program. If you are a lawn care professional, your customers deserve better.

-Deerslayer

Blah Blah Blah all you can do is copy and paste someone's work!!!! and by the way Mr.Deerslayer I think your a little hypocrite also with a handle by that name and then talking ORGANIC!!!!!! And further more I never said I was a Chemist or plan on being one!!! Oh one other thing I hope you don't plan on using any chicken dung around the house cause it also has ARSENIC in it and that might be pulled also as an ORGANIC PRODUCT!!! Ta Ta!!!!

TerryB, the readers of this thread will decide who is knowledeable and who isn't.

"Blah Blah Blah all you can do is copy and paste someone's work!!!!" I always like to post my sources. I know that's a problem for people that don't read or like to make up stuff.

Regarding my handle, my favorite book as a boy was "The Deerslayer" by James Fenimore Cooper. It was part of the Leatherstocking series that featured the hero Natty Bumppo, known by European settlers as "Leatherstocking," and by the Native Americans as "Pathfinder," "Deerslayer," or "Hawkeye". I chose Deerslayer as my first handle and haven't changed it since I began participating in forums during the mid 1980s. Speaking of hypocrites, in your own words, "I don't appreciate the assumptions".

I'd like to sign off here since you're too easy to beat up. However, I'll continue if that's what you want.

-Deerslayer

OOPS, I just noticed that I misspelled the word knowledgeable in my last post. My thoughts got ahead of my fingers. 8^)

-Deerslayer

I have purchased a one gallon container of 32%UAN from our local ag distributor. I wish to use this for lawn fertilizer however I an uncertain as to what ratio UAN to water I should use to apply onto the grass without burning it down to the trenches of hell. I was told 3 ounces of UAN to 1 gal. water. Please help!!

Progressive--you should probably start your own thread for that question, and give it a subject that will let people know what your question is.

Also, this is the organic lawncare forum. A question about a soultion of Urea and Ammonium nitrate would probably be better asked on the lawncare forum.