Thats cool the building must offer some heat

I'm so jealous of D.C.'s urban heat island effect, zone 8 status. Lol. Nice pic!

Yeah, this is those palms second winter in the ground. They were put in like in august I think of 2009. We thought it was a mistake, and perhaps Windmill palms were meant to be put there because we KNOW they can survive our winters here. Sabals on the other hand, well I dont think that they have ever even been tried.

So if this pic is a recent one then that means that survived the 3 huge blizzards of last winter. This winter is actually worse in terms of cold though. While it was alot snowier last winter, it is COLDER this winter. That said, I dont think that downtown DC has seen below 18-20F yet this year.

I'm just across the Potomac River in old town Alexandria, and we have hit 14F once I think so far and have been in the mid teens about 10 or so times. We are still well within the urban heat island here but even with just this short distance there is a little bit of a difference.

Thanks for posting these pics. I had all but forgotten about them! If they do actually survive this winter too then perhaps Sabal Palmetto is something that has a legitimate chance to survive here. There are literally hundreds of them surviving, and thriving in the Va Beach area, but not only are they a good bit warmer there, but the duration of the cold there is very short lived.

Im definitely surprised that they are still doing so well, but I am very glad that they are! Whats really amazing is that they were hurricane cut sabals and that they were planted in late summer!
I know Sabal palmettos were tried by some waterfront homes on Staten Island, NY, but they were hurricane cut and planted in the fall and didnt survive the winter. Maybe they would have survived if planted in late spring, or planted at a smaller height. Im sure that sabals planted in a warm area in Manhattan would have at least a chance for survival.
Hope the DC sabal makes it through this winter also!
-Alex

What does hurricane cut mean?

Hurricane cutting is when all the fronds are cut from a mature sabal palmetto right before (I guess it could also be after) being transplanted to increase the chance for survival. You might have noticed pictures with lots of sabals that have only a few fronds, those are probably newly transplanted sabals that were hurricane cut.
The problem with hurricane cutting is that it takes about 2 years for the crown of the sabal to get a nice amount of fronds so if it were to lose most of its very few fronds from the cold, then it probably would die from all the stress.
Good luck!
-Alex

"Hurricane Cut" is the practice of severely pruning palm trees, especially Sabal Palmettos, to the point where only the center growth spear, and possibly the next newest leaf remains on the tree. Some claim that this will reduce damage to the tree during high wind events as well as reduces stress on newly planted trees. Below is a photo of an example of some hurricane cut Sabal Palmettos.

"Hurricane cutting" is a controversial practice as there is significant evidence to support the idea that this practice does more harm than good to palms. It can deprive a tree of much needed nutrients and energy, and there is evidence that it can cause the trunks to deform. Often you will see a much "skinnier" spot in the trunk of a palm which occurs in the few years of growth after a hurricane cut is performed, thus weakening the tree at that particular point. There are numerous articles citing the negative impacts of hurricane cutting of palms. It is widely thought that the proper pruning of palms is the 9:00 / 3:00 , or only pruning the dead fronds or fronds which it is clear that they are going to sooon die. For those not familliar the 9:00 / 3:00 cut is pruning the fronds starting at the 9:00 position, and pruning all fronds on the bottom side between that and the 3:00 position, leaving the "top half" of the 9:00 - 3:00 circle fully in tact.

I have included a link to a website that will link you to many of these articles, many of which were written by credible sources.

Personally, were I to ever purchase and plant a mature Sabal Palmetto, I would go out of my way to purchase from someone who does not use this practice.

Hurricane Cut Sabal Palmettos
{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Many good articles on

just make sure they are planted immediately as many many palm farms or companies selling sabals dont like to plant them and just lay them aside withthe roots out of the ground which obviously dries them up quickly...

Wow this is something new I have surely learned. This answers my question, because whenever I go to Florida I notice these palms with only one or two fresh fronds coming out of the crown. Thank you.

No Problem. You will see this practice all over the south, but it is particularly bad in Florida. In some jurisdictions in Florida this practice has even been made illegal. I think Broward County is one of those jurisdictions.

Tropicalpalms is right. Im fairly certain that the practice of hurricane cutting palmettos stems mostly from the industry itself. The practice is only made necessary because A grower may want to have large quantities on hand to sell and move quickly. Since having them on hand would be having them dug up first, and left to lay around as "stock" the majority of the roots will die from drying out / exposure. In that instance, hurricane cutting will probably SAVE the tree from death. Since the trees have very little in the way of healthy roots when replanted, they must be propped up, and cutting all but the couple of newest fronds off of the tree makes it easier for what little healthy roots remain to support those very few leaves and put more energy into regrowing a new, healthy root system first.

I would bet that if you have had a grower who left the trees in ground until ordered, and minimised the time the trees spent out of the ground, AND took care to get as many healthy roots as possible on the tree at the time of transplanting by protecting them, that the need for hurricane cutting would be drastically reduced.

nova u are exactaly right thats why i get so mad at the people who "try" to sell palms here just for the $...we are the only ones who plant the sabals and let them grow back also don't get hurricane cut as everyone else does. very good wording nova.

Those Sabal palmettos are very close to where I live (about 3 blocks) and I drive by them almost every day. They are certainly protected by their placement on the downwind side of a very large concrete (sandstone?) building. I was one of the people who predicted that they would almost certainly die and was shocked to see them survive their first winter, but then again it was an unusually mild one (lowest all winter was around 18 degrees). Although they suffered some damage, they grew a few new leaves and the one on the right even bloomed.

This is their second winter and so far they are looking good but again, it has not been a cold winter... yet. I think our lowest so far has been around 20 degrees. So if it's another mild winter there's a good chance they will survive again, but winter is far from over and we usually get temperatures in the low to mid teens in late January or early February.

"Hurricane cut." Well, you learn something new every day. I cannot remember how many times I was visiting down South and frowned at palms that had been cut that way. Now I know why.

I had no idea they had planted palms there. I have not walked by there much since my carrousing days ended. Good for them. Almost could be some old part of Los Angeles.

That is truly amazing, I have often wondered if there were any large Sabal palmettos in D.C. Areas of the Florida panhandle have been as low as 13-14 F this winter and yet D.C. hasn't been below 18-20 F. Still, I would think the consistent cold would kill a palm so tall and exposed (I assumed any surviving in D.C. would be short and not very exposed). Are there any other trunking palms like this in the D.C. area? Please keep us updated as to their progress.

THere are quite a few fairly tall windmill palms. There are quite a many of them in private residences in the DC area. I know of several in Alexandria, plus a couple more used in front of businesses. The most 'famous' one is the one in front of the air and space museum along Independence Ave. There is another one on C. st. SE I think as well that is about 2 stories tall.

As far as Sabal Palmettos go, there are quite a few Sabal Minor, but these two pictured are the only two Palmettos that I know of in the D.C. area.

Nova:

How are your Citrumelos holding up this winter?

jacklord,

I don't have any Citrumelos. Maybe someone else here on the forum does but I don't. There is a type of dwarf orange tree in one of the demonstration gardens a few blocks from me, and it is fine. Im not sure exactly what its called but it is a small tree, and it is extremely thorny. It produced small, golf or ping pong sized mini oranges that are very bitter.

Sorry Nova. The cold weather is warping my perception.

The tree you speak of is a Flying Dragon. If you ever want to adopt a seedling, let me know.

Haha! its so cold you had a brain freeze!!! LOL! ;-)

With Sabals----

95% success with leaves removed and 64% success if leaves not removed.

http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=2406&Type=2

yes it def. does improves transplanting rates of sabals because unlike other palms sabals roots when cut have to all fully grow new roots as the others are damaged and dead. (other palms have to do this also but can also "branch" off other roots that have been damaged) so the Sabal has to store its water in the trunk as it cannot uptake any water once dug up due to the root being dead... therefore once the palm grows new roots it can then start to uptake water. So if the sabal has a large canopy it is hard for it to maintain the whole crown not being to uptake water yet. so it is much easier for it to care for that little top spear. yes it does hurt the palm to hurricane cut it, because you are cutting the "green" off as everyone knows is good! but the first most important thing when transplanting a sabal is getting its roots established not looking good at the top... once your sabals roots get established then thats when it will uptake water and start to push out fronds at the top. So that is why there are mixed reasons to this "Hurricane cut" takes years to grow back, looks bad no customers like that...everyone wants the big tops now. like nova said tho u can definitely get a sabal not hurricane cut but removing the lower fronds and just babying it watering it everyday soaking it. personally i have seen many more die not hurricane cut. so its a chance you can take if u want that nice looking top and you know what you are doing. i like the method in between cutting the fronds at about 10 & 2 o'clock. -Justin in Vb

Does anyone know what these palms are planted facing. SE, SW, SSE, SSW, ~due South?

EAST.

any update on these palms? Pics? it still boggles the mind that they can put large specimens there and they don't completely die when it appears they have almost no protection other than facing a favorable direction and being close to the building for heat.

I've done a lot of reading up on Sabal Palmettos lately. I've seen photos of Hurricane Cut S. Palmettos stacked like logs in big garden centers. Their root balls are ridiculously tiny for transporting ease. The closely cropped crown keeps the energy of a newly planted hurricane cut palm in the root system. They are used in resort areas where they want a mature "instant tropical" look. They are usually propped up with wood braces for the first year or so.

From some other posts in this Palm Forum I read that, Hurricane cut S. Palmetto survive best where the winters are 8b or above. They don't recover well in areas that are borderline--like the Mid Atlantic 7a/ 7b/ 8a. Reportedly, for our areas, it is best to buy a large (15 or 25 gal) pot-raised specimens that have their entire root ball and crown of fronds in tact. Establish early in the season and protect for the first winters. Most garden sites say they are hardy to 8a (10F) or 7b (5F) with protection.

I'm actually quite pleased to see these in DC.

Im also convinced that if you start a sabal palmetto at a smaller size (I think 7 gallon is good because its old enough to look nice right away, but young enough to transport without having to be pruned (hurricane cut). I really think that hurricane cut sabals are only practical in warm climates and even there, it still takes about 2 years for the crown to look full. These sabals in DC are doing great all things considered. The problem is they will never look full and nice, but it sure is interesting to see them survive. If they planted small, un pruned sabals, I wouldnt be surprised if it was a relatively full plant since it is in a good microclimate.
-Alex

Thought I read they were dead but maybe they have come back???

East is a great direction for them to face but may not be
the best in regard to getting these the heat and full sun they need.

May have to take a drive down there if I can find the time.

I know this is probably a dead thread now, but google street view for the building was done on May of 2011 - the sabal on the left was fully dead, the one on the right actually had 2 small new green leaves growing.

That said the last 2 (and especially this winter of 2014) have been horridly cold, coldest since 1994, and surely any unprotected palm of most any species (except a well placed and established windmill or dwarf) is at best damaged and sabals are probably dead by now :(.

Those sabals if I remember where hurricane cut transplants which take yrs to regrow their roots. Which is why they died. If someone will comfirm I believe that they replaced those with windmills.

Interesting that this old thread has re-surfaced, as I just did a blog post about these very same palms. In a nutshell, the palmettos were replaced with windmill palms in 2011, which did much better but are currently being hit hard by our coldest winter in 20 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: The saga of the Scottish Rite palms

Just had my Sabal palms trimmed the other day. Told him if He was going to strip all the branches off and leave a twig on top don't bother. Looks like they were done the right way now. He finally admitted the tree will hold its shape much longer this way and not grow as much.
Just them leaning against the tree with a ladder damages the bark. Hopefully my 25 year old palms will out live me.

Johnnieb- Did the windmills ever recover? How are they looking now with another cold winter?

I discovered a palmetto seedling growing in the Adams Morgan neighborhood just a few blocks from the Scottish Rite temple. Just a random seedling in an area that had just had some renovations of the sidewalk done.

the reason they always die is because these palmettos come from florida and dc is too cold for any cold hardy palm which is a "florida strain"

'the reason they always die is because these palmettos come from florida and dc is too cold for any cold hardy palm which is a "florida strain"'

I don't know about that, Florida genes were pretty useful in maximizing the cold endurance of at least one non-palm, but subtropical, species. Magnolia grandiflora 'Edith Bogue' (perfectly hardy in northern, zone 6b/7a climates), traces its resistance to subarctic cold...., to Florida! This cultivar originated in Florida.