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Palm Trees for my zone

Posted by NYHamptons 7a/7b (My Page) on
Sat, Jan 26, 13 at 18:27

Hi guys, I have probably posted enough on this forum for you guys to know I want my Hamptons investment property to look tropical. So, I was wondering, what types of palm trees I can grow besides Windmill, and Mule Palms. What palms could grow here, that wouldn't need serious protection. I would use lights, burlap and mulch to protect it. Also, they could survive w/out covering the fronds. (Mule palm is the exception),I also know of the Sabal Birmingham, but is too slow growing and takes forever to form a trunk.(Mule palm is the exception),


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Without serious protection your list of trunking palms is Windmill. You'll have difficulty with the mule even with serious protection. You might have them survive a year or two if you have mild winters but I saw Southampton hit 12f already this year and this is a mild winter so far. Mule would likely die without protection at 12f. The only other trunking palm that takes east coast 12f is Sabal Palmetto. I've never tested one below the upper teens but I've read that it can take down to 8f.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Do you know any hybrids that might be hardier than the windmill palm?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

I agree with Lago. Forget the Mule Palms.

Windmills are recognized as the hardiest of the trunking palms. There are some varieties that are listed as hardier than others, but the standard Trachycarpus Fortunei should be a good fit in your area and need minimal winter protection the first few years. If you plant a few of them in groups of twos or three, in time you can really get a nice tropical look. You can also underplant them with needle palms and dwarf palmettos (sabal minor).

There is also Sabal Birmingham which is likely a hybrid of Sabal Palmetto and a Sabal minor. They are shorter and stockier than standard palmettos, they notoriously grow slowly before they put out a trunk, but are also very hardy. I think if you stick with some of the standard zone 7b palms, you'll get the look you're trying to achieve.

Do a google search on these types of palms and you're learn a lot more.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

My windmill palm. How much protection should i give it? I will plant it in spring.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

A thick layer of burlap should be good, a lighter layer of burlap with some christmas lights should work well also. Some nice and airy mulches like pine needles or hay would work really well too. The more fronds that it has on it, the better since it will make the plant establish in the ground faster so yours should be doing great with a crown like that!
-Alex


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

where did you pick that up its a really nice size. don't see them for sale locally that big


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Thanks, tropicalzone7! I will use lights and burlap around the trunk. But will not cover the fronds. Maybe in a good microclimate I won't need to protect it at all! Btw, miketropic, I got this palm from lynches garden center here in southampton. Thats when I wanted to plant palms. It said hardy to USDA 7. So I bought it and will plant it in spring. It was 450 dollars but since it was low season, I got it for 100 dollars. Hopefully it will be established by fall! So are there any other palms or bananas you think I can grow here. I am growing the Musa Ice cream, I overwinter it outside, and it is doing great. I'll post pics of how I protect it.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Wow 450 dollars? Things in New York really are overpriced.

Try Sabal Louisiana and Sabal Brazoria. They're both zone 7 hardy, like sabal minor on steroids, grow faster, larger, big tropical leaves. And both are supposed to be somewhat trunking and grow faster than Birmingham. Louisianas put out about 7 leaves a season for me, potted. Should grow even faster in the ground.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

450 is pretty overpriced, but 100 dollars is a great deal! I have a trachy fully unprotected this year in a decent microclimate (and I have a potted trachy that I forgot to take inside before the cold hit). We got down to 11F and right now they look terrible (the fronds are all closed and dead looking) but palms get like that sometimes in cold and it might look normal once the temperatures warm back up later this week! Long story short, Trachys can survive pretty cold temperatures but they dont like it much! I think you can get away without protecting the fronds but I would at least tie up the fronds and protect them a little bit so you dont get any frond damage.
Also dont be disappointed if it doesnt grow a lot this summer. My trachy only put out 2 fronds it's first summer because it was focusing on root growth. Now it averages about 5 fronds a year and thats only average growth for a Trachy, some people get around 10 fronds a year from their trachys! If it does get winter damaged the growth rate will be affected since damaged fronds don't "work" which means you have less fronds changing the sun's rays into food.

Good luck!
-Alex


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Islandbreeze,I will try sabal brazoria and lousiana. will i need to protect them at all? And when do they form trunks. I don't want it to form a trunk 10 years later! If it's within a year or two, that might be good! Yeah, your right tropicalzone 7, maybe what you should do is just protect new growth by wrapping it in burlap. That way you can ensure survival! Oh one more thing where can i find a sabal louisiana?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Also guys, does anyone have a Trachycarpus wagnerianus they are willing to sell. Like a small one maybe worth $20? I was thinking of buying one but, there are none available...


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

the sabals are going to take a LONG time to trunk no matter what type it is so 10 years might be a good estimate. any paticular reason you want a Trachycarpus wagnerianus basically the same tree with upright leaves and a bit less hardy. if your going for minimal protection get a good sized needle palm and leave the waggy alone...and as stated before I guess I don't have the pocket book for the hamptons..450 is insane for that but you did get a good deal at 100.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Ok, where can I get a good sized needle palm for cheap prices?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Home Depot and Lowes have been carrying 7 and 15 gal needle palms locally. And from others reporting in, they are gaining more popularity so you might find them at a local big box store near you. You might have to call around first.

In a borderline 7a/7b you will likely need to protect all palms the first few winters, until they are established. Additionally, being close to the ocean, they can get wind burned so keep them close to the house to block winter winds. Usually, people in marginal area plant palms on the south facing side of the house for its microclimate. But since in your area south facing is towards the ocean winds, you have a double edged sword...cold north winds and cold ocean winds. You may always need to use burlap in the south facing side if you are right on the beach.

For now, stick with the three best performers in zone 7...needles, minors and windmills and you'll be successful. As you gain experience, you can broaden your palm palate with hybrids or zone 8 palms.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

We have a k-mart around here I'll look into it. I can post pics of my selected microclimate facing the south. The ocean generally moderates our temperatures actually. Just one question however, since needles, sabal minors and windmill palms are known to survive here in southampton, why don't people plant them more often. I drive down Gin Lane in Southampton and no one plants palms. Maybe it's just lack of knowledge. Also the closest bay is about a mile from here but that is to the north. So I think the south wall is good.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

K - Mart does not carry them. Only seen them locally at L's and HD's--and only in the mid/late Spring into Summer seasons. Why don't you see them planted? Well, a combination of reasons:

1.) local availability, or lack of, and gardening traditions.

Down the block, there is a beautiful Southern, long-leaf pine. Said to be hardy to Zone 7, I never see others around here nor being sold at garden centers. Yet this large one has been here for years. Just not traditionally planted up here.

2.) agricultural gardening zones have been redrawn a few years ago, which may explain why Zone 7 plus plants have been expanding in the plant trade.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Yes, the ocean moderates. I live near the ocean too and it does bump up our immediate coastal area to a high 7b, even 8a on some zone maps. But the winds off the ocean in the winter can be equally damaging and strong, so that mixed with cold temps equals wind burn. Even Virginia Beach and Myrtle Beach notoriously have their ocean side palms get windburned and are not as nice as a few blocks or a mile inland. Here too, in the winter the blocks closest to the ocean are notoriously cold and windy, even on mild days. You have indicated that you are ocean front in other posts. Palms of all types suffer from windburn in the winter in marginal areas.

Why don't people plant more palms in areas like ours? They simply don't know they can or that hardy palms exist. Add that to lack of availability and similar ignorance of hardy palms on the part of garden centers and you have your answer. Frustrating to those growing hardy palms and know better. We see the potential, when no one else does.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Wow guys, thanks for your answers! You guys answered my questions! I live well over 5 miles from the ocean, although I'm one mile from the bay. But that's towards the north! I think my palm will do well here! Do you think Home depot will carry needles and sabal minors at this season? Also when should I plant my windmill? And when should I uncover my Musa Ice cream. If this works I will tell all my neighbors about hardy palms!


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

That should play to your advantage then. I thought you were much closer to open water. It's actually better to be slightly inland and surrounded by salt water, than right on the ocean front. Then definitely plant them on the sunny south side of your house...inside an L shaped wall is optimal. Give the windmill room away from the foundation to grow. Most of us have them planted a bit too close for comfort when they start growing.

Do more research on line by Googling Cold Hardy Palms or specific names you want to plant. Read up over the winter, so you'll be more prepared when it comes to plant them. You can also search through this site for specific topics as much of this has been covered by others.

Also, really take a look at your garden and try to find an optimal spot for a palm garden. You can also use the late winter, early spring to improve the soil (organic material, better drainage, etc). Although near the beach, you should have well draining sandy soil like I do. You may need to water more frequently in summer.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Any hardy palm is the most vulnerable for the first 2-3 winters, so you defiantly should cover the leaves completely.
After that you can leave the leaves unprotected. There is something called wiltproof, it is a spray on clear wax that prevents the leaves from drying out. Also a protected location would help such as against a building. Also keep in mind the hamptons are the northern extent of zone 7 along the Atlantic. A zone 7 in maryland is not the same as long island. I live more south of you in zone 7a. I grow windmill palms, dwarf windmill palms (waggie) ,sabal minor, and a pindo palm. Out of all of these windmills are the best suited for zone 7. Sabal minor is hardy but extremely slow growing. Mine only grows about 1-2 leaves a year. Pindo palm requires heat in the winter, sensitive to winter moisture, and slow to start growing in the spring.

Also there are alot of other plants besides Bananas and Palms that make a landscape look tropical. I rely mainly on canna, elephant ears and caster beans. Cannas and elephant ears can overwinter in zone 7 with mulch and caster beans can grow to 15 feet or taller in one season and are extremly cheap to replace. To make your yard look tropical the planting has to be dense. Annuals are a great way to fill in the landscaping. Cordylines, dusty miller and purple queen are great and even survive the winter most years. Yellow potatoe vine, begonias, and coleus are great too.


Here is my front yard last summer

 photo IMAG0013.jpg


Also combine contrasting colors like this
 photo IMAG0014.jpg


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Wow your right, I will try some others after I get experience from Basjoos, Windmills, Needles and Sabal Minors. What's that purple plant in the second picture called? It looks like a banana. Also what other bananas could I try in my zone?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Also wetsuiter, thanks for your reply. I will definitely find a good microcliamte. But I want to plant some by the pool, which don't have a micorclimate and faces north. You think that'll work with windmills if I use burlap, lights and mulch around the trunk? (no protection for leaves). Also does anyone know what month I should plant my basjoos and windmill in?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

its not purple its red if your reffering to the banana and its a siam ruby..no chance at all of overwintering outdoors unless you live in miami..good chance it will die indoors as well. mine always die back and all I have is pups by spring time


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

NYHamptons,
Check out the website for the Chilly Palm Tree Co. You can order needles and sabal minors from them as well as a few other hardy palm species.

Plant your Musa basjoo and windmill palm when soil temps warm up. Plant them out about the same time you would plant out your vegetable garden. They won't start growing until the soil temps are sufficient.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Windmills out in the open unprotected in 7a would certainly be damaged in winter. I understand the desire to have topical look pool side. Definitely plant masa basjoo there. They are exceptionally hardy, grow quickly, multiply fast and are perennial. They can be cut back flush to the ground after the first frost and mulch in. Any palms out there will need much more winter protection from damaging winds.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

This is a long thread and I didn't have time to read each entry. Maybe this was mentioned already.

This is not a palm, but Yucca rostrata should do well there provided it is given perfect drainage. Once it gets some height, it really adds a tropical look. Also, check into Yucca treculeana if you can find it. Both of these are trunking yuccas.

Bananas are not great for windy areas.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Ok, sorry for the late reply, have been busy! I will definietely plant a few basjoos. Those need minimal protection, and plant the windmills at the entrance in a microclimate. I will purchase some needles and sabal minors in the spring. Those don't need protection! Btw, I already have a lot of yuccas planted and since everyone plants them around here, so it's nothing special. Thanks!


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Even if everyone has yuccas around you, yucca rostratas are special. Check out the trunking ones on cacti forum. Also try dasylirion wheeleri. It is in the succulent family. But its long blue leaves look really tropical.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Even the needles and minors should be protected the first few winters until they are established. Most are grown in Florida and likely don't see winter temperatures like they will see in NY. Two or three winters with protection should be fine.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

No difference in the hardiness of T.Fortunei and T.Wagnerianus,Waggies are a variation
of Fortunei as far as anyone knows as they has never been a wild population of Wags found.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Yeah, I get what you are saying. Although when I get my needles and minors, I will get them from chillypalm.com because they're in North carolina. So I don't think I will have to protect it. As for the yuccas, I don't really like them. They don't have that same feel as a palm, bamboo or banana has. Will I have to protect my Basjoo? Also, what other types of bananas can I try, that just need some mulch. ( I can even put a lot). What types of bamboo can I try that do not need protection. Also, if I were to plant a phoenix palm, which would be best for my zone. And how could I protect it?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

As for bananas, try mekong giant and chinese dwarf banana( musella lasiocarpa).


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

No phoenix palm would do well for you without protection. With protection your best bet is Canary Island Date Palms since they are so much easier to get than the rarer ones that are only very slightly more cold tolerant.
Some yuccas are really nice combination plants. My personal favorites are Yucca aliofolia, Yucca Gloriosa, Yucca Rostrata and Yucca Faxoniana. All of them do well in our climate and can be gotten at local nursuries without too much difficulty (they are pricey though).

I would protect the needle and minors for the first winter or 2. There is no doubt that they will be much more aclimated to the cold coming from NC, but you still want to make sure that they dont see too much cold. If they get damage with protection then you know that they might die without it. They should be good after the first year (I'd wait 2-3 years especially if the first year is mild).

Monkey puzzle trees are cool trees to look into, I've seen several on long Island, Shelter island is supposed to have one of the oldest ones on the East Coast! They are a relative to Norfolk Island pines which are very common throughout the tropics.

Southern magnolias are great shrub like trees (they do eventually get massive though so keep that in mind if you do plant one). I like them for their huge blooms and big green leaves all year long.

Good luck!
-Alex


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

id like a monkey puzzle tree if you know any place that ships seedlings tropicalzone7. There very popular in the UK. I agree on the CIDP being the best choice, protection is still going to be needed. you could try a med. fan palm but its going to need some protection as well.

As for bananas the ones mention mekong giant a musella are good choices. you could try a velntina they usually fruit in 1 year or possible an dwarf orinoco if its a mild mild winter. other than that everything will need some type of protection.

there are MANY bamboo choices from nigra, yellow groove , and yellow cane to some ground cover bamboos. theres more of them than palms and bananas for your zone thats for sure.


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I don't particularily like monkey puzzles, southern magniolas are OKAY, although, they look very common. So what protection should I give a Canary Island Date palm? Anyone?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

same as all the rest lights wrap and mulch and it will make it through but I would bet on leaf burn at the least.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Should I cover the leaves?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Mike, got my monkey puzzle off ebay last summer. It has already started to branch.

My musa veluntinas all bloomed last year. They came back from being cut to the ground. I still dig up one for overwintering inside till I am sure of its hardiness.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

did you try to eat them? I have heard as long as you pick out all those BB like seeds you can eat what is left.

I'll check ebay for the monkey puzzle

thanks


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

No, I actually used the naners as dercoration in a vase. They lasted about 3 months.

If yuccas are too common up state try hardy agaves like ovatifolia. They look tropical when planted with contrasting colors.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

So where can I get a canary island date palm? And would I need to cover the fronds?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

They are not that uncommon. My local HD's have started to sell some in the growing season--both canariensis and silvestris (the Silver one--supposed to be hardier but also quite prickly!). I grow all my Phoenix as container plants, but spending most of the year outside (March-December). I grew most of my canariensis from seed but you should not have a problem finding an Internet source that ships. I definitely would cover mine and use lights on it, but they are robust, beautiful palms. Their only problem in a container, or in the ground where hardy, s that get to be ENORMOUS! I love Date palms.


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there very popular in the UK and I am thinking of trying one in ground here in KY if I can find one of a decent size for sale.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Yeah me too, idk how they survive in the UK though, it's so rainy! And dates don't like that! (My family is English). If I don't cover the leaves, but just add mulch, lights, burlap around that, and then bubble wrap around the burlap, what type of leaf damage should i expect to see.


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

I have family in England and I always gasped when I saw CIDP in my aunt's neighborhood in Liverpool. I thought if they can grow them, so can I. I couldn't. One winter and mine was dead. Apparent they can't either. I just got back from there two weeks ago and the CIDPs were gone. They had record snow (13") and record cold (1F) two years ago, so that likely did them in. However, there were plenty of windmills everywhere I went from London to Liverpool to even the notoriously chilly, snowy Lake District.


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Did u protect them in anyway?


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RE: Palm Trees for my zone

Very true 2 winters ago was there worst in 50 years but there are still some there. Just like us they go the distance to protect there palms. On average our winters are much colder than there's. It always stays very cloudy which keeps the temps up for them. There wetness combined with temps around 0 for a few days dosent bother them. Its our combination of wetness and prolonged cold that kills everything. Most palms that are subtropical can handly temps into the teens with only frond damage..if you can keep them dry that is really the key. If you looks at jim hardys protection method and scale it down for a zone 7 you can grow alot of palms in the ground. Your going to have to do a little work to grow anything other than the normal fortunii and needle there's just no way around it..even the pygmy dates from lowes can take temps in the 20s with protection..just keep them dry and insulate well..the water bottle buffer method is one I might try next year as well


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