looks nice, must be nice not to have a millon rabbits eating evertything)

Please don't tell me you're leaving the C. revoluta in the ground

It's getting protection with heat this winter.

If you really want to have a cycad in the ground in zone 5, protected with heat or not, why don't you just bury a potted cycad in the ground each spring, and lift it for the winter.

What you're doing just doesn't make sense. These plants grow very slowly. Unless you are going to erect a greenhouse with lots of heat, they will suffer badly during the winter and will not have enough time to recover the next growing season. Why do you want to torture the poor thing?

Eek, it must be rough living right next to that railroad!

Nice palms. That washy r looks really healthy!

You will have the most tropical yard around. Looks good and the advise about leaving in a pot in the ground is good if you so choose.

I'm really just trying to help, please don't look at what I advise as anything else...but I think you really need to put in much more planning into your designs.

Like I already mentioned, if the revoluta survives it will look miserable. And just as important, it appears to be situated under a shade tree. These are full sun plants. I ask again - why are you torturing this plant? What's the purpose of this experiment?

And basjoo also needs full sun otherwise it will never grow the way you expect. Some of them appear to be under the shade. Again, they will never reach the proportions you desire. Give them full sun and all the food and water you can muster.

You may be better off also planting the bananas in an area closer together so you can water them all more easily. Right now they look like tiny leaves in a sea of mulch. Let them grow somewhere ideal this year, if (and that's big if) they survive in the ground you can move them next spring.

You're setting yourself up for major disappointment. It doesn't have to be that way.

The Super Dwarf banana plants will not survive the winter in the ground not matter what kind on protection you give them. They have to be put back in their pots, buried below grade for the summer and lifted out and put into a warm, bright location when November rolls around.

They have no chance outside.

Although I will be a little kinder, I agree with the fact that the bananas will not possibly survive, and that they will not thrive where you have them, competing with all those tree roots.

I live in zone 9b in SW Florida, and my bananas were damaged this year from just one measly little frost. I actually lost a couple of babies.

As for the sago, it is definitely a tropical, but can be grown easily in a pot, so that's where it should go.

The bananas can be dug in the fall, wrapped in newspaper, and put in a place where they won't freeze, then replanted when all threat of frost is gone. I used to do that in SC with my bananas. I actually just threw them under the house, but that was zone 8. It won't work where you are, but tossing them under your bed might. They will go dormant, and will be ready to plant out next year.

wxman81, I support your joy and happiness, - you gave so much place for your plants, wish you to live in a real tropical yard. Of cause, Sago and Washy need more protection in winter, but it's clear that you'll care for it. And the railway looks very quiet.

In SW England, despite the fact that it is further north than some areas of Canada, we have very mild winters, never going below 28F in winter! Thats where I live anyway, in fact it is even milder! The problem is that summers are short and winters are long. Anyway, we still grow Strelitzia reginae, Phoenix, Jubaea, Butia, Howea,Schefflera, Cordyline species, various cycads, zingiber, musa (dwarf cavendish), ficus sp and several more 'subtropical' species outside all year round! Dwarf cavendish dies back every winter, and is slow to get going again. Theoretically we could grow coconut palms, but we do not have much sunshine and summer temperatures are quite cool, with maximum temps of less than 80F. England isnt as cold as many people think!:D
Im not sure about leaving a cycad outside in 5b all year, even with protection because they would not cope with the water, and would probably rot. It would be great to grow them outside all year, maybe you could try if they are cheap enough! BTW your garden looks great, I think the plants look amazing as summer bedding!
Good luck!
James

Thanks for the comments. The sago and the washy are getting FULLY ENCLOSED and HEATED this winter. They will be fine, as they will never fall below 35F. The super dwarf cavendish bananas are coming into the house and being potted up for the winter. The musa basjoo's will be mulched and left in the ground. Just wanted to clear up what I plan to do, and it all should work.

I'm also germinating 8 trachycarpus fortunei seeds right now.

Winter protection or not, Sago is not the right variety for growing under the shade of a tree. Try Cycas thouarsii or rumphii. Best of luck. You will need it.

The sago isn't going to make it. If it does it will look horrible. I guess he's just not going to listen xerophyte. Why do you have your heart set on a sago in the ground wxman81? It would be much easier and much cheaper to just sink the pot into the ground and move it inside during the winter. Xerophyte makes another good point about the tree blocking out the full sun. Sagos need full sun. Theres no way you can argue that. What you really really want and what will work are two totally different things. Just do a little research.

Jay

Jay

One of the purposes of these boards is to help guide people from making the same mistakes that have already been made by someone else. But when someone has their mind and heart set on doing something, it becomes difficult to dissuade them. I guess stubbornness is just human nature.

More than likely something "unexpected" will befall that Sago. Maybe the heating will fail. Maybe there will be a leak that will lead to rot. Or humidity will be too high. Or soil too damp. Or the structure will heat up excessively on a warm sunny day. Or a record freeze will prevent adequate warmth.

Then in the spring, when the existing leaves have collapsed, there will be another post entitled "What's wrong with my Sago?". We'll see.

I got the sago for $9.99. It's worth the try in my opinion. Still looks great after a week in the ground. Maybe I'll prove you guys wrong next spring when I unwrap it and its beautiful.

Ok, enough with the sago, what do you guys think about my plans with the washy?

Xerophyte,

That last post sounds like you are trying to put a evil curse on his sago, people have to learn for themselves. Even if a plant is not rated for this or that zone it does not stop them from trying different things. There is and always will be a ray of hope that it will be a happy little sago where he planted it.

wxman81, I compliment you on your work and the place looks great. I also compliment on your mature response and composure. If you spent the money, you can plant your plants anywhere you please on your property. If people want to comment in a negative way, do it, then move on. You have a plan, go with it. Take a look,if you havent already, at the post by
arctictropical and their Trachy over wintered in a zone 4. I'm sure these same people would have told that person the same thing.CAN'T never done anything.

Here is a link that might be useful: Trachy in zone 4

Actually donray I think its great what arctic is doing. If wxman81 would've planted a trachy in that spot it would be a whole different story. They can be planted in a pretty shady spot and do fine. I'm sorry for being mean. I apologize wxman81. I hope the sago does good for you. All I'm saying is you're not giving a sago a very good chance in that spot. You could've picked a better plant for that specific location. If you're going to post what you're doing on a forum expect some constructive criticism. I think xerophyte would know what he's talking about. Its not like he grows cycads or anything. Good luck. Post some more pics.

Jay

Josh, I have no idea what x grows or knows. I'm a grower and grow a few different cycads and all of mine are in some shade. So taking the advise you posted about doing research I found nothing to say a revoluta will not grow in some shade. In fact my largest revoluta sits under a large maple during summer and goes inside my insulated shop during winter where it gets absolutly no sunlight for several months and has pushed at least three flushes a year for the last two years using cycad special which is no longer available except in Florida. Use the url below and scroll down to culture and the next paragraph will be light. Read it. I do agree it will be tedious to successfully grow a revoluta in zone 5 in the ground, but I do not argue his placement of the plant. The trunk of the tree appears to be decidious so it wouldn't be a factor in winter anyway.IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: cycas revoluta

Alright alright. I'm sorry wxman81 and donray. I didn't mean to start a fire. Please let me retract the way I spoke before. I would never want to completely discourage someone from trying something. Like you said wxman it wasn't very expensive at all. So why not try it. You should also get another if you can and try it in an optimal growing spot just to see if there is a difference. Please give an update of how its doing. I feel like I'm involved now. LOL!

As for the robusta. I think once the leaves start to burn back in the fall, cut them off and cover the whole trunk in christmas lights and a big plastic tarp. You might even want to bury an old shower curtain under a layer of mulch at the base of the trunk to keep most of the water out. I think the key to overwintering a robusta in a very cold zone is keeping it dry enough to avoid rot. Good luck with them both and again sorry for being a jerk. It happens from time to time. LOL!

Jay

Yeah, that site says Sago's can do ok in full shade.

"Sago can also handle full shade with no ill effect (its leaves grown larger in the shade)."

Jay, is there anyway I can save the fronds of the robusta in the winter? I'd hate to have to start over every spring with just a trunk. If I enclosed the whole plant, and kept it above freezing, wouldn't the leaves not burn back?

Folks - we are all friends here. There is no shouting or pouting. It's just plants. We are all on the same team, enjoying our hobby and sharing questions and suggestions with others. Nobody has all the right answers. There is no such thing as a stupid question. Let's not let misconstrued comments get in the way of that.

wxman and others - Let's just go over some basic biology with regards to a Sago, Cycas revoluta. What is it's growth cycle? Basically, photosynthesis + water + nutrients build up enough starch reserves in the stem until a point is reached where there is enough to divert the resources towards a flush of leaves or a reproductive structure. Some energy also goes towards root development as well. When the leaves mature and harden, the process starts all over again. Sagos are on the slower end of the cycad family. Many species flush at faster rates.

Now lets take the scenario where the plant is grown in deep shade. Photosynthesis is reduced because there are fewer photons per unit of time. So starch builds up more slowly. Roots grow more slowly. If there is stress, the plant recovers more slowly. A flush will have fewer leaves, and they will be stretched because of reduced light availability.

If kept in a place with a long growing season, like somewhere tropical or a long hot summer in the southern US, then the Sago will tolerate it and do fine as long as it is not stressed in other ways. What can stress this plant? A very cold winter, extended drought perhaps, lack of nutrition, transplant shock, among other things. Since photosynthesis is reduced, so has the plants ability to cope. Sagos happen to be extremely resilient so detrimental effects may take a long time do develop.

wxman is attempting to grow the Sago in shade - fine - but the problem the way I see it is that the growing season is short, and the winter potentially dangerous. How will this plant cope? Maybe I'm missing something. Until someone can explain to me how the Sago will be healthy long term in zone 5, I will continue to have doubts in my mind. It will take a lot of work to keep it healthy during a long, cold, winter with a subsequent low light summer. I'm all for experimentation. Keep us posted.

Donray keeps his plants in the dark during the winter. So do I. But they are not stressed. It is not cold enough. And they don't need the light because they are semi-dormant. They are in a state of suspended animation. When they are exposed to the outdoors again in the spring, they just continue where they left off.

x

wxman81 - About the robusta. Its just not worth the work and money spent on heating the enclosure to try and save the leaves. If a robusta lives through the winter it will recover very quickly and I quote "in full sun". Check this out. I should say first that this is Austin's palm and these are Austin's pictures from Little Rock Arkansas so all the credit goes to him. It's a very good example. This is how fast robustas regrow a crown.

Jan 2007 - No fronds at all

Nov 2007 - Full Crown

Pretty cool huh?

Xerophyte - I agree.

Jay

I have to agree with Josh_Palm_Crazy, and Xerophyte_nyc in this thread.

Im in a warm zone 7B / cold 8A, and sago's outdoors HERE do not even work. Not year round anyway. The outdoor Trachy in zone 4 is far more feasible and far more believable than an outdoor sago in zone 5. Its a nice yard, nice layout..etc, but I personally wouldnt have selected some of the plantings.

Does that wall with the washingtonia face south? Just curious. IF thats a south facing wall, you may have a chance at protecting the washy there, but I really just dont see a washy coming through a zone 5 winter. If we could do there are where I am located, I would be doing it by now for sure.

This is almost like that Butia Capiata in Rochester NY, only they move it indoors every year to a conservatory. That palm simply cannot be grown in rochester ny, outdoors, year round.

Those Bananas look very small too. Personally, I wouldnt expect more than a few feet out of them this season max.

Anyway, good luck with it. Ill be curious to follow it and see how your things grow.

Here's a couple robustas in zone 5 :-)

This one gets a little building over it for the winter, also is in full exposure, takes a lot of damage from wind & hail during the summer

One next to the green house, this one is in a better location.

here are my palms

Here is a link that might be useful: photobucket .com

Very nice palmman! Whats your location?

Jay

whitehouse texas in northeast texas.if you look through all the pic you can see when they were smaller 5 years ago.

I agree that the sago does not have a chance mine would fry at the sign of a good frost . I do wish you the best and can only advise you to make sure you keep it warm .
I can tell you from experience it is a royal pain in the butt to keep covering and uncovering ,especially when you uncover in the spring only to find your plants dead ,but as i said before i wish you good luck !

wxman81 how are you planning on protecting your sago?also they are fine down to 20f(personal experience)I agree about washy to much to cover or try to heat,you will need x-mas lights and insulation as well as plastic outer coating and they do need to be kept dry and well mulched to make it through winter and lots of sun for full recovery in summer etc,I think when you consider where we are zonewise(i'm in 5b)max sunlight is more important as palms need max carb storage for survival through winter so it would be good if you can get your sago more sun(like cuttting that tree down!kidding)by moving it,but if not we shall see,these have not been tried as much as they should up north in my opinion,I think buried deep under leaf mulch and kept DRY they may prove more hardy than most think,worth a try.

How big was that nannorrhops ritcheana when you got it?Looks awesome!how much is it growing each year?how much rain does it get?and how much sun?I will post a pic of mine but this pic is from earlier this spring and this plant is going off the deep end,I will probably end up remembering it this way as it looks like it is headed for the compost pile,if I had one!

Here is a link that might be useful:

I don't know anything about palms, zones or what grows where, but I think your yard looks very nice and neat, well tended. Thank you for sharing your photos. You'll enjoy it this summer, and whatever happens, it will be a good learning experience.

Hey...do trains go right by your house, or is that your own personal little railway in your yard?

Susan