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garryendson

An ignored fact about Trachycarpus princeps.

garryendson
13 years ago

An ignored fact about Trachycarpus

Trachycaprus princeps is famous for the uniquely white undersides of leaves. However less attention is paid to the white powder presence on the upper leaf surface and petioles which make them look bluish.

This is because even some real princeps we see on the internet are not really blue,more bit of like a green palm with only white backs. and in some cases, even the undersides ares just blue or gray, not so sharply white.

Actually, T.princeps is a blue palm with white powder to the leaf undersides ,uppersides and petioles. My several princeps grown in the ground and pot out of seeds from the stone gate demonstrate how blue white they could be at both sides.

Though a blue T.princeps with white powder at upperside could be far more interesting and preferable than a green one with only white underside which is not rare to see , it is still unknown what the main reasons are behind the variations.

Maybe someone could contribute his growing experience to shed light on this.



Comments (24)

  • tropicalzone7
    13 years ago

    I definitely think there are lots of different forms of Princeps which is why Im afraid to get one without seeing it in person. My favorite form is the bluest one. Its a really great looking Trachy and one of the most beautiful palms, especially when you consider its cold tolerance!
    Good luck!
    -Alex

  • butiaman
    13 years ago

    I agree with Alex,there are so many websites that say most of the T.princeps palms out there are not the real thing.There is supposed to be 2 different kinds,a green form and the blue form.Then there is some that say the blue looking ones are the real one.I dont really know myself,I'm no palm expert,not on Trachycarpus palms anyhow.I like the blue looking ones better and from what I've found it's the real thing.There are plenty of them for sale on ebay,but like alex,I would have to see one in person before I bought one.Where did you get yours?I've been looking for one,a real one.You look like you have a real T. princeps,the blue looking one.Sorry I wish I could help more.
    Randy

  • jimhardy
    13 years ago

    Maybe just a general variation.

    Possibly some seeds are from(territorial division) areas of intense sun and temp variation and some are from lower areas of more shade and less thermal variation.

    Possibly we see this variation going on with all Trachys in one quality/or another as they react(have reacted/evolved)to the ongoing changes in there environment.

    The same question could be asked about why some Trachys(Fortunei in particular)have slender trunks and some FAT.

    We see the same variation in Trachys growing in the exact same soil/environment and yet they appear different.

    I have seen Fortunei(pics)of plants right next to each other,one with the skinny and one a fat monster.

    The green ones are not Princeps,the original mistake was seeds taken from palms that were not Princeps but (I believe grow below them)are most likely what is referred to as Nova which in my opinion is a hybrid form,probably PrincepsxFortunei.

    The only seller on E-bay-that has them-right now(palmswholesale)has the true form.

  • lzrddr
    13 years ago

    yes, I am the 'proud' owner of one of those non-blue forms (which is obviously a completely different palm). Still a great looking palm, but not even close to T princeps. Fast palm, though... got a 1 gal 3 leaf seedling 4 years ago, and now trunk is nearly as tall as I am, and leaves way overhead. Not even my fortunei is growing that fast. Still has a nice glaucous bluish cast to the underside of the leaves (but then so do a lot of fortuneis)- nothing like the pure white of princeps, though. Leaves are very finely split and symmetrical, so doesn't look like a fortunei either (though a lot more like one than it does like a princeps). I still feel ripped off a bit, but I seriously doubt it was really the fault of the seller.

  • trachyhead
    13 years ago

    Lets not mix up 'Nova' with the green princeps that Garry is describing, they are very different palms.

    The Nova very much resembles fortunei but has streched petioles generally and it very fast growing for a trachy.
    Lzrddr, don't feel ripped off as I actually think that the sp Nova could be a very interesting palm as it develops and much sought after.

    Garry, for the record i think the 2 palms you describe (blue/grey & greener princeps both still the same white undersides) will be difficult to distinguish in a few years as they mature.

    I am growing princeps from 2 different sources over the last 5 years and although some start greener as strap leaf seedlings i can hardly tell the difference now except for the one planted out which does seem to be more blue and compact.

  • jimhardy
    13 years ago

    I was thinking the same thing about waiting to see what they(Princeps) look like in a few years.

    Vic,if we could ask the lzrddr to post a picture of his "Princeps", we may see this palm is nothing
    like Nova and looks more like a stout form of Princeps only green,this palm could be a second(possible),
    variation of a PrincepsxFortunei that I believe is an outlier beyond "normal" Nova.....
    based on the assumption that Nova is PrincepsxFortunei-TBC

    S/IA/Fairfield.html?bannertypeclick=big2">

  • lzrddr
    13 years ago

    here's my T nova (last year... getting a tad crowded around the front so pics are harder to take now).

    {{gwi:1123208}}

    {{gwi:1123210}}

    {{gwi:1123209}}

    {{gwi:1123212}}

    this last shot is of Trachycarpus oreophila on the left, and someone his T nova on the right

  • jimhardy
    13 years ago

    Thanks for posting those again!

    I will let Vic know to take a look(-:

  • garryendson
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    As for T.nova, it is formerly known as green T.princeps ,but actually NOT T.princeps. Actually,there are 2 forms (sources) of this variety we noticed.The first version we normally see is narrowly and evenly leaved like princeps, butt growing robust and fast .The second is wide and irregularly leaved and fast growing as well. The first narrow version is the closest identical in appearance of finely and regularly split leaves to T.princeps as most other trachycarpus if not all have wide and irregularly dividing leaflets in seedlings.That is probably why people call them green T.princeps.
    The second version is more like T.fortunei but growing much faster with longer petioles and stretched trunk, but compacter than the first narrow type.




    T.princeps is NOT a green, but a blue palm with more or less white powder on both sides after splitting leaves. However,many T.princeps from the seedlings to juvenile ones of around 1 meter trunk planted out we saw on EPS and elsewhere are not that blue on top and many times just green . Also there are huge difference in coloration between individuals of mine I noticed at the same age. This makes me think what caused variation in leaf coloration and maybe there is a good way to turn them all into obviously blue silver palms on top other than green or greenish blue ones with white backs if the variations are not just from mother princeps, an addition to what Jim suggested.
    Vic,It will be interesting to see how blue your princeps is .What do you think leads to the blue hue?
    We can see the color difference between princeps and Nova


    {{gwi:1168229}}

  • garryendson
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Jim, in my view the palm lzrddr showed is Nova as it looks more like the Nova below we saw in the habitat than princeps.
    The reason why it reminds us of princeps is that they have evenly split leaves cut somewhere below the middle,but deeper than T.princeps whose leaves are split to halfway or above.Note the photo of the nova and we will see they also have same feature, though not all nova do as we noticed.
    Plus its trunk is cone-shaped different from the cylindrical type of princeps and the hair is soft and long as opposed to the stiff and coarse fiber of T.princeps.


    http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4430/nova2.jpg

  • trachyhead
    13 years ago

    Garry, In my limited experience of growing these it would seem that ones planted out in full sun appear to have much more blue/grey to the upperside of the leaves than my 2 grown under glass of the same age. It is also more stocky and faster growing in the ground than given the heat of a greenhouse.

    I still maintain they will all look pretty similar 10 years down the line and possibly loose the colouring on the uppersides to a large extent, but with no evidence of mature palms we will have to wait a while for this evidence.

    Jim, i have to say i think the first 'Nova' lzrddr posted is for sure the same as the ones we are all growing, it would seem different growing conditions affect appearances.

    ps: Garry, your princeps seedlings are very green at the moment at 3 leaf stage. Doing very well though, as are the cultivated princeps which are pushing 4 leaves in under a year.

  • garryendson
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Vic, thanks for sharing your observation with me in this respect. How blue silver is your princeps and can you show us?
    What tremendously confused me and poses a different experience is that two of mines in the bit of shady location have more blue upper surface than the ones I put in the full sun which is contrary to my previous belief .
    Plus, you may see the the above photos of Princep and Nova growing under the same bit of shady condition ,however T.princeps either bigger or small all have bluish leaves in sharp contrast with green Nova which is beyond normal explanation.
    That is why I am trying to figure all this out .
    It lends me to think further If the the white powder is just a result of sun defence, why are the uppersides not as white as the backs which have less exposure to the light than the previous?
    Surely, no palms can be growing faster and better in the pot than in the ground with more available nutrition.
    Why do they lose the blue coloration on top when bigger as you predict ?
    Lzrddr's nova is in some way as Jim said different from the normal nova many people had , with a stiffer appearance plus regularly leaflets split to deeper midway, bit of similar to princeps as opposed to the floppy and tatty look of other Nova with irregularly dividing leaflets.We could say it is a different looking Nova.
    It stands out if we bear in mind that trachycarpus fortunei normally have irregularly split leaves,easy to distinguish,
    I noticed my princeps start to shift to blue or silver from
    green as they split leaves and some as early as on the 2nd split leaf while most on 5th or 6th leaf.
    The princeps cultivated is still under observation and needs more time to tell what they are.

  • trachyhead
    13 years ago

    Here you go Garry, here is my Golden Lotus princeps about 4 years old.

    {{gwi:1168242}}

  • garryendson
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    What an awesome bluish princeps. That is what a real princeps is like,though without the same heavy silver powder as some of the seedlings showed above. It is understandable that there are big variations between individuals. It indicates again that T.princeps is not a green but a blue palm few people pay attention to in this regard.In whatever conditions, I dont think other trachycarpus like fortunei or nova will become blue like this as they lack the white powder on top which is the main cause of bluish tinge.
    Thanks for sharing your experience, Vic. Still there are some questions above unresolved we need to work on.

  • jimhardy
    13 years ago

    Garry

    The Princeps G & S originally wrote about looks like it was under a lot of brush and trees,the reason it's
    so green may be 2 fold-less direct sun and it probably stays wet under there for long periods.

    I have been told that Encephalartos Princeps loses some of it's coloration if left out in the rain frequently,
    maybe this is also true of T.Princeps-not to mention other silver/blue palms.

    This is to some extent a defense against strong sun/harsh dry climates,no?

    So why wouldn't a wetter station for these plants negate some of this?

  • garryendson
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I am boggled at the the association between the blue tinge and sun as there are contradictory observations at the same time.That is why I am trying to seek more insights into this.
    Remember where I am with months of rain from April to July each year, but I have not yet see any other blue princeps match them.

  • mike-jaramillo
    13 years ago

    Here a pic of my T. princeps it has a very curved trunk is that normal? It also had alot of white powder on the top and bottom of all the leaves.

    {{gwi:1168244}}

  • garryendson
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Mike ,a very nice blue silver princeps. The curved trunk is normally because it has not been straitened when tilting at young age.

  • mike-jaramillo
    13 years ago

    Thanks garry, when I plant it in the ground should It continue to grow on its side?

  • lzrddr
    13 years ago

    I don't think normally rainfall has much effect on the bloom on blue cycads and palms. Shade does at least in cycads, as well-shaded blue cycads tend to green up a bit (though new flushes still spectacularly blue.. perhaps more so in comparison with older leaves)... not sure this is the case in palms, though. I certainly don't see the rain effect on my blue palms becoming any less blue (Bismarckia, Brahea armata and Chamaerops var. argentea)... It can certainly be rubbed off, but a rainfull would have to be pretty brutal to rub this bloom off. There are several blue palms that survive in extremely tropical climates that have plenty of blue on them no matter how much rain (Mauritiella comes to mind at first). But the bloom seems to be an adaptive mechanism to increase tolearance to either sun, drought, or heat. Some argue that is why Bismarckia blue form is so much more tolerant of cold and dry heat than the green form (so much so that they act like they are unrelated species). What is interesting is that blue plants, in general, seem to be much slower growing than their green counterparts (particularly noted in Bismarckias and the blue Chamaerops). IN Thailand, where Bismarckia growing conditions are excellent, green Bismarckias are used often in landscaping only because they grow more than twice as fast as the blue ones, despite the blue forms vastly increased ornamental appeal. I notice that Trachycarpus princeps is one of the slowest growing of the Trachycarpus and wonder if there is anything to it's being a heavy bloom producer having anything to do with that.

  • mike-jaramillo
    13 years ago

    Very interesting. My T. Princeps has grown very slow indoors, and this year I planted it in a very very sunny location and at first the leaves burned a bit until it adjusted and the leaves started comming out more and more white powder on the leaves and with a blue hue to them.

  • brooklyngreg
    13 years ago

    I really like your palm photos and you have some nice specimiens. What zone and state are you in?

  • jimhardy
    13 years ago

    Princeps certainly isn't the slowest of the Trachys...
    man....so much variation in these trachys.

    My Princeps puts out about 5 leaves per year-6 if you count winter...o.k,that is slow(;
    ........however,2 of my Waggies and one of my
    Naini Tal also are good for about 5 a year.

    One Naini Tal and 1 Waggie of mine put out 9-11 leaves.

    So far my slowest Trachys have been the hardiest-no spear-pull on any of these last spring,
    Naini Tal and Waggie mentioned above were right behind with only leaf pull-no spears.

    Will be interesting to see how my Princeps does in it's first winter out.

    My place runs 3-6f warmer than the weather sticker,every little bit of cement helps,the airport is in a corn field,basically(-:

  • neonrider
    12 years ago

    What are those large white spots on some of the Trachycarpus wagnerianus? And ants loving them.

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