Meyermike, first off, I may be a citrus enthusiast , but my bigger collection has always been palms! I can't believe that blue-pot, palm hardies have made it to Ma already. They only first started to appear in my area a few years ago, though each year, there seem to be more and more varieties and numbers available. The Sabal you are seeing sold is Sabal minor. And although cold hardy, it is still rated as hardy to about Zone 6/6b. That is one concern, the other potential issue is the lenght and instensity of your summer. Even though many Sabals can handle ocassioinal subarctic cold, protracted periods of subfreezing cold will pose a problem. So yesminimum temps are important, but so is the duration of cold. Hardiness is a very complicated issue and can involve everything from soil type, moisture, sun angle, number of sunny days, daily temp range, number of days below freezing and even summer heat. Take the last factor, summer heat for example. Sabals require long and HOT summers with subtropical minimal temps being the norm in the summer. Consider too, that even in SOUTH FLORIDA, Sabals are considered slow growing. Not saying you cannot grow it where you are, but you will have to protect it over witner and have realistic expectations. Sabal minor may be marketed as "cold hardy" but it is still a subtropical. As a rule of thumb regarding this ones hardiness, I would say, that if a region has long established specimens of Southern Magnolias (M. grandiflora), then the area will probably support (unprotected) Sabal minors. Both need relatively long, subtropical summers but can survive (even thrive ) in ocassionial subarctic plunges. I hope this answers your question.

Other blue pot palms that you may eventually see include Windmills (Trachycarpus fortunei), Needles (Raphidophyllum hysterix), Meds (Chamaerops humilis), Pindos (Butia capitata), and this year's first...Silver Date palms (Phoenix silvestris). All of which will also require protection in Zone 5. You could always grow it containerized but i definitely notice that one reason Sabals have such a slow growth reputation, is that that really seem to grow faster in the ground than in pot. Bigger difference than I see with other palms. Good luck!

Hi Mike!!!

You just received some great advise...

njoasis knows what is up!! : )

Take care,

Laura

I don't think that there are any palms actually rated zone 5, but if there is a palm I would try it would be needle palm. As jersey mentioned though it would likely be tricky. For one thing i am not sure how it would hold up under snow for as long as you say it lasts where you live. Sometimes a damp cold is more severe than a dry cold.

I think the sabal minors would be your best bet if you have a hot enough summer. The needle palms are very hardy if you can find them in larger sizes. I had two needles with spear pull last winter. One didn't recover. Either way both are short palms and easy to protect.

I think the sabal minors would be your best bet if you have a hot enough summer. The needle palms are very hardy if you can find them in larger sizes. I had two needles with spear pull last winter. One didn't recover. Either way both are short palms and easy to protect.

chadec, how where in NC are you, and how cold did it get last winter?

Here is a link that might be useful: Virginia Beach Weather

I am kind of in a 'banana zone'. There are frost advisories all around me--north, south, and west. Hope to escape this round of nearby frosts. Too early for that.

Nj it looks like most of north jersey is under the gun Friday night.

I am in the 5 % of the state outside the frost advisory. I still have out a lot of containerized plants outside (palms, citrus, others) so I pay a lot of attention to the weather at this time of year. Autumn is still much easier to deal with than Spring. How frustrating is it to have just put plants out only to get those evil late frosts in April. Still, I escaped the damaging frost last spring that did so much damage to the apple crop in the Northeast and Midwest. I did bring the bananas into shelter and may move a few more later. I have a strand of hemlocks in the back and I will move some under them. It is amazing, but this island of hemlocks has it's own little microclimate. Last winter even the Spanish moss overwintered in it!

Bottom line with zones(IMO)-don't confuse by applying to palms.

Look at what you normally see in winter and protect where necessary..
but also look at what the lowest temps are and incorporate (at
least) a plan for that into your protection.

In some cases it can mean adding a large blanket or some
other insulation...I gained 20F by throwing some canvas tarps(old comforter)
when the temp hit -18F a few years ago.

NJ, sorry to hijack this thread, but how do you know if Spanish Moss is alive or not? I've wondered that for a while. It all looks gray to me. Sometimes when it rains it gets greenish. Is that how you can tell?

Here is a link that might be useful: Virginia Beach Weather

Yep, when you wet it, it should revert to a nice green. Good indicator species with respect to zone hardiness and humidity-- guessing it is Zone 8.

Here is a link that might be useful:

I like the idea of you starting with a nice sized needle first. Put it on the south facing wall (for winter wind protection and added warmth) but not too close to give it room to grow. Protect it well the first few years to get it acclamated to your area.

Then you night be able to back off for the next few seasons. You'll be able to apply that winterizing expertise on your next palms that are less hardy. Jim is a great example of what you can plant when you want to take the time to do it right.

Yikes!

I guess I better get my act together this fall! (-;

LagoMar, Im just north of Winston Salem. We only got down to 17F twice last winter. However being right off the mountains we still got a good 8" snow. nothing like winter of 2010.

So it sounds like although needle palms can withstand a good deal of cold it should not be accompanied by snow. At least when young. meyersmike would definitely have to work to keep it not only warm bit dry as well.

When it comes to blue pots its all up in the air. My 7 gallon needle was never protected. And its going through its 4th winter. I also noticed better cold hardiness from HD over Lowes. The palms where I spent extra money for outdoor grown palms here in N.C. are way above blue pots. I also have 7 seedlings of various sabal minors from yuccado that came through great.

I REALLY appreciate all the information you guys have given me.

Thank you Dave, Laura, Jim, Chadec,Lago, and Wetsuiter.

I guess I will not be growing any type of any kind of pal anytime soon:-(

First off, the 'Farmers Alminac' says it's going to be a very cold winter this year for most of us in the Eastern states.

Second, I suppose I could probably get away with it if there was a Palm that goes dormant, but I don't think one exists, right?
If they do not go dormant, then I can't see a plam surviving total darkness for 4 months as my luck would have it. I would have to wrap it up in insulation and burlap for weeks without being disturbed until spring like I cover my Figs.

Then there is the HOT summers needed. I think I hit on average 90, maybe at most 9 times a summer and then the heat really doen't get cranking around here until June and quickly ends in August.

Looks like I might try buying a couple of them in the spring, plant in the ground, then dig up come the fall. But I think that would be a huge pain once teh plant gets too big.
Maybe I should try Banana then?

If only.......

Mike

Hey Mike,

I tried locating an older thread where two posters, one in Chicago the second in Canada, grow hardy palms outdoors, year round, but can't find the thread.

I once planted a Windmill Palm, 'Trachycarpus fortunei' in the garden but it was young. What I didn't know at the time, for a Palm to survive cold climates, z5, the tree cannot be small or mid-size.

I talked to one man who has a huge, Windmill Palm in his Chicago, back yard..He paid 200.00 for the palm, plus shipping. There's work involved like placing Christmas bulbs on the soil during winter months..Lights must be kept on 24-hours a day. He mentioned other work involved, but I can't recall.

Apparently, Needle Palm is the most hardy. Supposedly, they'll grow during winter w/little protection in OH, MI and IL.

The second is Dwarf Palmetto/Sabal Minor.' This palm is known to grow in temps as low as -18F, and can be found in Penn and NYC. Wow!

Third is Windmill/Trachcarpus fortunei. Windmill is larger than the previous two palms..can reach 20-40' tall in temps as low as -5F.

There are other Palms but they're not as hardy as those mentioned above..

Thinking about adding a Palm in your yard? Toni

I would wait till spring. Palms are not like other trees. They need all season to establish a root system before winter. But yes palms will survive in a box for 4 months. At most you would need a thermocube and a light bulb. It will be well worth it! As far as your heat goes, that's not very hot. We have been averaging 50 days of 90F here. I let my 9 sabal minors from Lowes go unprotected. They have seen 8" of snow atleast 6 times.

Mike:

Just be prepared to protect it each and every winter and you can grow (more or less) any of the hardy palms and perhaps, depending on how ambitious your protection schemes are, some less hardy ones.

I know of guys who grow palms as well as citrus in Massachusetts. They both protect them though.

Hey guys, I also need some help, I bought a 5-6 foot tall pindo palm and was wondering how i should make a shelter for it.
I have bought a heater, humidifier and wireless temperature reader which shows both temp and humidity. I am just not sure how to make an enclosure for it that allows sunlight. Also i am not even sure if it needs sunlight. Like would i be able to build a massive Styrofoam box around the palm and would it live for 3 months without any natural or artificial light?

I need help asap because its starting to get cold here in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

Thanks a ton!

Use this winter to read up on hardy palms. Lots of information on this site and others. Plan on starting with an affordable needle palm as they are the cold hardiest. Just realize in your zone that any palm will have to be winter protected indefinitely.

Also this winter, study you garden spaces and try to locate the best micro climate. Usually the south facing wall is optimal. Will other plants need to be moved? Will the soil need to be improved? Better drainage? You can get started on that stuff before planting season.

While some people caution against buying blue pot palms at Home Depot or Lowes, I've had great success with them, with few exceptions. I'm also in a much milder coastal location, so I have a slight advantage on the basic cold hardy palms. Just realize they are notoriously less hardy the first year or two. The real advantage is price. You can afford to lose a $40 palm, but not a $400 one. Plus get one that is large enough to sustain winters (with protection), but manageable enough to figure out how to protect it. You might do some research as to where needle palms are being sold next spring.

After a successful first palm, you can think about more needles or experimenting with the next step on the hardy palm scale (sabal minors/dwarf palmetto). Again, Jim Hardy does amazing things with winter life support in his Iowa location.

Adrian is your pindo in the ground already and. if so for how long? I don't think you will need all that for heating your palm. If you shelter your palm in a box let it cool down. Just use a thermocube to control the internal temps. you don't want
a heating source running with the sun out or on warmer days. Cooking your palm could cause more damage than letting it get too cold.

Hi chadec, yes, its already in the ground and was just recently planted. What i was thinking of doing was buying a greenhouse from walmart or home depot or something and then just placing it over the palm for the winter. I can also put my heater inside the greenhouse in case it gets really cold one night or something.

I live wayyyy up north so i don't really want to take the chance of going without a heater inside. It doesnt always have to be on, my heater comes with a remote control so i can remotely turn it on and off.

I also had another question would I need a humidifier inside the greenhouse or is the water from the massive piles of snow enough to support the palm for the winter?

Thanks

I used a greenhouse for my Pindo during its first winter in the ground. It worked splendidly, but has since outgrown it.

I had one 100W light bulb to provide heat. I also put in some jugs of dark colored water. No problems.

Greenhouses are good as there is less labor and the plant my continue to grow. The only thing is make sure you vent it on sunny days lest your tree become Pindo Soup.

Hey jacklord, I bought a heater so i guess that will be my substitute for your 100W light bulb, i'm not worried about the plant receiving sunlight as the greenhouse allows light in so that is no longer a concern of mine.

Can you explain why u placed dark colored water inside of it? Did you want the water to naturally evaporate when the temps started to become warmer to create a more natural looking environment for the palm?

Also would you suggest doing that over, watering it every 2-3 weeks?

Thanks, also feel free to email because I really do want your input on things since you've already done this before; my email is: besh1234567@gmail.com

Thanks again!

The heater will work fine as well. I and others also utilize something called a Thermocube, which turns on the heater or bulb automatically as soon as the temp hits a certain low and turns it off again when it rises.

I place the (sealed) jugs of colored water because the sunlight heats them up during the day. At night, the heat is released inside the greenhouse. Just for extra heat, not for watering.

Again, make sure you open the greenhouse up during sunny days. The temps will be very high inside and destroy your palm. Greenhouses are great for protection, but they are not passive. You have to watch them daily.

Okay that sounds good! I was wondering do you ever water your palms in the winter, or do you just leave it as is for the months you have covered it. And also would you suggest that I should water mine seeing that the palm will be covered from the beginning of January's till mid March.

In addition it is very rare to get above freezing in Ottawa in the winter but I will pay diligent attention to the temperature readings from inside the greenhouse.

Thanks

Kevin in Utah has done it too!

If Jim im Iowa and Kevin in Utah can grow hardy palms.. then anyone can. It just depends on how much time you want to spend on preparing them for winter.

We have seen those Windmills in the Midwest.. unprotected.. I cant remember the hotel.. but if they were protected, they would havve made it.

Hi Toni!! Nice to see you here!!

Take care!!

Adrian:

When I used the greenhouse, I did not water it and it seemed fine. Lots of moisture builds up inside.

Last winter, I wrapped the Pindo up in burlap as it has outgrown the greenhouse. I did not water and there were some dried areas come spring. Nothing serious, but noticable.

So yea, I would water during warm spells and spray it with something like Wiltpruf.

Wow everyone, this is deep stuff and great reading material.

I really appreciate all this thread has to offer and all the kindness you have all genrously displayed. Talk about wanting to see people like us stuck here near the North Pole succeed!

Many questions have been asked that I totally forgot about and every time I come back, someone thought of it. Like needing light or total darness for 4 months and an efficient way to keep it warm in an enclosure.

Mike:-)