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I am surprised

Posted by morningloree 9b (dawninvalrico@yahoo.com) on
Wed, Feb 12, 14 at 19:48

Hi,
New to this forum, I became interested in Passion flower vines, when I noticed Maypop vines in my yard. Being a gardner, I just had to have more of these beautiful vines. I live in central Florida and ordered several. What surprises me is that Passiflora Coral Seas does well here. I later learned that it's not fond of hot weather and expected to have trouble. It is thriving here and is quite vigorous. We have had cold snaps during the winter and it did fine over the summer, too. One of the better performers in my garden. I will say though, I tried Mission Dolores here and it doesn't do well. I also have Passiflora Lunametista which is a beast. It has put out several runners and has covered a large area, I have had it almost a year. No effect from our winter or summer temperatures either. Passiflora Elizabeth and P. edulis are growing, but struggling. Panama Red got hit by the dip in temperatures and lost it's leaves, but appears to be recovering. I recently acquired P. loefgreenii and Passiflora Panda.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: I am surprised

Hi I am in central FL as well! I must say I am glad to hear that you are having success with tacsonia in our area. I've been growing P. Antioquiensis and P. Exoniensis in our garden since late october (from seed). I am a little nervous about their first summer but they sure are growing vigorously at the moment. I also have a small P. Mollissima seedling that I am hoping will grow nice and big in the coming months. Keep us posted on how your garden is doing!
-Josh


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RE: I am surprised

I have wanted to try P. mollissima, will keep checking back to see how yours is doing! Blue Eyed Susan is growing and P. edulis is as well. "Elizabeth" is not doing well. I have just acquired " Panda." I hope your passifloras do well, it will give me hope that I can try some varieties that I have shied away from.

This post was edited by morningloree on Fri, Feb 28, 14 at 21:46


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RE: I am surprised

  • Posted by mark4321 10a CA Sunset 16/17 (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 1, 14 at 18:02

I thought I should add that someone in Central Florida (who sometimes posts on this forum) has posted pictures of the Tacsonia hybrid P. 'Oaklandia' happily growing and blooming outside. This is the first Tacsonia I am aware of that does well (including blooming) in Florida. 'Oaklandia' was initially sold by Annie's Annuals as P. tarminiana x P. parritae. There is agreement that this is incorrect; instead it is a P. manicata hybrid, perhaps with P. tarminiana. I'll give a link to his photos at the bottom. I can't link to his post, as the Facebook group is "closed", and content is restricted to members.

morningloree, if you have a blooming plant of Coral Seas/Glow I would encourage you to post on the Passiflora Facebook group I just mentioned: https://www.facebook.com/groups/passionflowers/ Membership is a formality, and I think it takes a day or less to be approved. There is strong interest in any Tacsonia that can be grown in climates with warm summers. When the 'Oaklandia' photos were posted, it was mentioned that 'Coral Glow' might also have heat tolerance. I have always heard that 'Coral Glow' was more heat tolerant than 'Coral Seas'. I understand that many of that pair have had their IDs confused over the years. Patrick Worley, who made both hybrids, is a member of the group and could surely sort out the correct name. The group has about 2000 members, including many or most of the most prominent Passiflora growers in the world.

Congratulations on getting P. 'Coral Seas/Glow' to grow. If it's not blooming, I wouldn't consider it a complete success. The Passiflora Society President lives in the Central Valley of CA (summer temps: 90+, but typically with cool nights). If I remember correctly he's grown that same hybrid for years and it hasn't bloomed (or maybe one flower?)

My main reason for emphasizing the temperature requirements of Tacsonias is that a ton of money is spent when failure is certain. I've sold Tacsonias and other cool-growing tropicals on Ebay, and even with clear warnings of the situation, many plants are sold at high prices and sent to a certain death. I hated doing this, and I think it's unethical to not clearly spell out their requirements.

Take P. antioquiensis as an example. Lots of plants and seeds of "antio" have been sold online. I would assume from my own experience selling that this includes thousands of dollars in plants and seeds sent to Florida and other Southeastern states. I'm not aware of a single bloom of this plant in those areas. This is no surprise whatsoever to those of us in California. We experience a tremendous range of summer temperatures as one moves from the coast (highs in the 60s) to inland (100+ highs). Many people have tried this plant, and they are well aware of how it tolerates just a little more heat than the immediate coast. A Florida summer is far, far more extreme than climates that doom it in CA. And many have tried, and failed, in both California and Florida heat.

There may be surprises and exceptions. P. 'Oaklandia' is an example.

A couple minor points. A seedling of P. x exoniensis will not give anything like the parent. The hybrid is not even self-fertile, so there must be another parent involved. "P. mollissima" does not exist. It's likely either P. tarminiana or P. tripartita var. mollissima. Most seeds sold as P. mollissima are actually P. tarminiana.

Here is a link that might be useful: Photos of P. 'Oaklandia' blooming in Florida


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RE: I am surprised

  • Posted by mark4321 10a CA Sunset 16/17 (My Page) on
    Sat, Mar 1, 14 at 18:10

There is now another source for P. 'Oaklandia'. This is Grassy Knoll Exotic Plants in Oregon. They sell more varieties of Passifloras than anyone in the U.S. I'll give their description, since it spells out the problem very bluntly:

"Oaklandia Passion Flower. Finally!!! A pink Tacsonia that tolerates heat! This large, easy vine has been growing in Florida for over a year and blooming! Until now, these pink hummingbird magnets were impossible to grow in warmer climates. The flowers are about 4" wide and hang down like parachutes with a short row of purple filaments in the middle."

Here is a link that might be useful: Passiflora 'Oaklandia' at Grassy Knoll


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RE: I am surprised

While the growth is vigorous, I don't have a bloom on P. jamesonii 'Coral Seas.' I make sure I keep them labeled, but that is the only proof I have. I also have 'Coral Glow,' but I transplanted it and it's not doing as well, which is probably my fault for putting it too close to one of my bushes. 'Mission Dolores' behaved exactly as one would expect in Florida, absolutely miserable. I also hate to place plants under conditions that they are not suited for, so I have avoided more experimentation with plants like P. antioquiensis. 'Oaklandia' does sound promising though. Central Florida does have extremes and on the other hand Passiflora 'Panama Red,' doesn't like the cooler end of our spectrum and two thirds of my plant died back. I appreciate all the information, I really have become fascinated by passiofloras and I've found great information here. I will post any blooms if 'Coral Seas' surprises me.


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RE: I am surprised

Hi morningloree,

I want to emphasize that I'm not suggesting you got labels switched between the two, but that it is something that happened before you received the plant. This is a constant problem for all plants. For those with almost identical names and that can only be distinguished in bloom by experts the problem becomes huge.

My understanding is that the application of the species name "P. jamesonii" to the P. manicata hybrid 'Coral Seas', is also incorrect. This confusion is common in the horticultural business.

I'll post on the Facebook group two questions and report back:

1) the name: 'Coral Seas' vs. P. jamesonii

2) heat tolerance: 'Coral Seas' vs. 'Coral Glow'


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RE: I am surprised

here's a pic of my P. Antioquiensis and my P. Exoniensis on their brand new trellis here in Orlando. we have had a few days here pushing 90F this spring and it has not shown any signs of wilting so far and at the time of taking this picture it was 85F in my back yard. The P. Antioquiensis was grown from seed (PSI sale) and is only about 4 months old and the P.exoniensis (the smaller one) was bought from kartuz greenhouses about 2 months ago. As you can see my P. antioquiensis has displayed the dimorphic leaf mutation and the majority of the leaves are 5 lobed (more info about this here http://passionflow.co.uk/auntflo1.htm) . I believe that the high humidity here helps to keep these plants from wilting like they do in california due to the decreased amount of transpiration. Hoping to see some blooms out of this and the exoniensis before summer rolls around and it gets too hot for blooms. and I've also attached a pic of my P. trisecta var. mollissima seedling


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The seedling:


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RE: I am surprised

  • Posted by mark4321 10a CA Sunset 16/17 (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 18:03

The P. antioquiensis looks fantastic.

If you don't have a backup, I would encourage you to root cuttings. They are easy in perlite.

I don't think I've ever seen a Tacsonia wilt during a period of brief heat. My experience is that growth speeds up during heat waves (when temps are above 90 F). 'Mission Dolores', and also P. antioquiensis, get deformed leaves like those on the right.

Mission Dolores normal leaf, leaf +heat photo md_leaf_plus_heat.jpg

I don't think water loss is the main issue when it comes to heat. Otherwise, grafting on heat-tolerant rootstocks would not improve heat tolerance. I have been to Strybing after hot, dry weather (upper 90s) and saw Tacsonias blooming like crazy.

The flipside of hot, humid days is that the temperature at night stays high. This is what kills plants, I think. If we get a 90+ day, temperatures typically plummet at night (50s or low 60s), generally with high relative humidity (90%+).

My P. antioquiensis at my previous address lost a bud when it hit 104 F, but otherwise appeared fine. P. x exoniensis (which is known for some heat tolerance), was unfazed and continued blooming. 'Mission Dolores' lost a flower, but otherwise appeared OK.

My understanding is that the problems arise with extended warm periods, especially warm nights (above 65 F). Socalbill (I think that's his name here--he's posted photos) lost both his P. antioquiensis and P. 'Mission Dolores' after a month-long heat wave in Southern California: highs often 90+, lows above 65. These were big, established plants in the ground that had produced tons of flowers.

I know the guy who donates most of the P. antioquiensis seeds to PSI (initials D.H.). He once told me that he thought P. antioquiensis was impossible in San Jose. I'll give a link below to San Jose climate.

I actually do think it's possible in San Jose, but it takes a bit of work, and luck. The plant will also die at about 27 F. This is permanent, no return from the roots...

Here is a link that might be useful: Climate of San Jose


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RE: I am surprised

  • Posted by mark4321 10a CA Sunset 16/17 (My Page) on
    Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 18:22

To follow up on 'Coral Seas'/'Coral Glow':

Patrick Worley responded to my questions in detail on the Facebook group. I would encourage people to read what he said.

To briefly summarize:

P. 'Coral Seas' may be the same as the hybrid P. 'Jamesonii'. These are very different from the species P. jamesonii, which may not be in cultivation.

P. 'Coral Glow' is the one with greater heat tolerance. Patrick said that P. 'Coral Seas' would always die for him in San Diego. I suspect he means Vista in this context (N. of San Diego). Vista is in no way an extreme climate.

He also pointed to P. 'Susan Brigham', (P. 'Coral Glow' x P. manicata) x P. tarminiana x (P. 'Coral Glow' x P. manicata) x P. tarminiana as a hybrid that has some heat tolerance. I think this plant is sold by Suncrest and available at nurseries in CA. I'm not sure if there is a mailorder source at the moment.

I asked Patrick if there is a way to distinguish between 'Coral Seas' and 'Coral Glow' when they are out of bloom. I'll follow up when/if he responds.


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I got 'Coral Seas' from Secret Gardens in Oregon and 'Coral Glow' from Aloha Tropics after I researched it's better heat tolerance. The 'Coral Seas' was labeled as P. jamesonii 'Coral Seas' and I understand that nomenclature doesn't reflect the true parentage. Here is what I found regarding the parentage by Patrick Worley:
There is no P. 'Jamesonii Coral Seas'. P. 'Coral Seas' is a selection of a
cross using a mixta hybrid commonly called P. 'Jamesonii' . This hybrid is a Tacsonia but in no way related to the TRUE species P. jamesonii.
P. 'Coral Seas' is a cool grower that is a cross of P. 'Jamesonii' and P.
mollisima, done in northern California, probably in the 1960s. P. 'Coral
Glow' is my own hybrid of the same P. 'XJamesonii' and a P. mixta and P.
mollissima cross that I did. It is much more heat tolerant than the P.
'Coral Seas' They look to the casual observer almost identical, but I can
always tell the difference. P. 'Coral Seas' has a twist to the petals as
well. My rule of thumb is if it is growing in southern California or in a
pot it is not P. 'Coral Seas'. It dies as soon as the weather heats up.
Like most things commercial growers have taken Coral Seas and Coral Glow and renamed them P. 'Jamesonii' because it is one that they know and they really don't know the difference.

Where is Maury Povich with the DNA testing when you need him? Who is this baby's daddy? I heard they have done some flow cytometry to look at the parentage of some passifloras. To my untrained eye, they look similar, except the passiflora labeled as 'Coral Seas' has grown much larger than 'Coral Glow.' After I researched a little more closely, I realized this should not be the case. The only explanation I can offer, other than getting the wrong plant, is that while it gets plenty of sun, it is protected from the most brutal of the Florida day by a large oak tree. It is also near a small water feature with water lilies. My two other cooler growing passiflora perished very quickly. I mentioned 'Mission Dolores' and I got a 'Piressi' in a collection that I ordered and it didn't last a week under a lanai near the pool! I wanted all the others offered within the collection, wasn't expecting much, but was surprised it immediately started to decline. In my particular part of central Florida, we usually stay low 90's to high 80's in summer, but the nights can remain the 70's, which may be the issue and August may have a few hotter days, it feels brutally hot to me, and when something says plant in full sun, I think twice! I have found full sun means either a good dose of morning sun or some afternoon sun. Most of the passifloras I have planted get plenty of sun, but a small break from all day. I will say 'Lunametista' is the most vigorous of all the passifloras I have. Nothing phases it temperature wise, I got it last year in April in a six inch pot and it has covered half of a trellis that is 6 feet tall and a 3x3 are behind it. I have several new plants around the original and I dug one up and it spreads by runners. I repotted it and the new plant didn't even wilt. Last year I even had a few blooms. Luckily I have it planted where it can do anything it wants. I have a patch of scrub palms that it is covering at the back of my property. Thank you for all the information, I continue to learn so much.

This post was edited by morningloree on Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 21:14


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RE: I am surprised

Thanks for all the helpful info mark! I hope my plants make it through the summer. hopefully I can keep the roots cool enough since they are planted in a shady spot where the plant only gets morning sun. I will definitely be taking cuttings in a short while so I can hopefully distribute some plants around the forum. also morningloree - another P. mollissima seeding sprouted a few days ago if it survives its childhood you can definitely have it I wont have room to give it a good home where it can grow nice and big as I already have too many vines :)


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Jost4318- Thanks for the offer of the P. mollissima, your vines look great. I wish you had room for more vines, I have Lavander Lady rooted cuttings and Lunametista small plants. I have a small P. loefgreenii that I will try to reproduce from cuttings, it is supposed to be a great pollinator. That one would be helpful to have if you want fruit or try a cross, hope you keep us posted on the progress of your vines.


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RE: I am surprised

Hi All,
Guess I should get on here more frequently. My passiflora 'Oaklandia' bloomed for the first time on February 4, 2014 however I've had the plant since last spring. Since it was a Tacsonia, I kept it potted in the shade of my entryway. When I didn't notice any adverse affects from the summer heat along with reports from Max Parker who grows his in California I finally put mine outside, in direct sun. It never wilted in the heat, now it is growing about an inch a day! I had 4 blooms and now it is just shooting for the sky (growing on a bamboo pole). Great to see others trying to grow these beauties as well. As mark4321 suggested in his post, another member here has successfully grown grafted tacsonia here in Florida too!


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Thanks for posting a picture of 'Oaklandia.' I will be giving 'Oaklandia' a try soon, I ordered one from Grassy Knolls. What an absolute beauty. I am hoping the passiflora that is supposed to be 'Coral Seas' will bloom, whatever it is, seems to be healthy.


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Glad to see all of the happy looking passifloras! Here's my own report:
After the Dec. freeze, 20F across Santa Rosa, most of mine are coming back.
For some reason I can't post pics here, I used to be able to. So I guess I'll just link to my flickr page.
Anyway, here's the gist of it:
Oaklandia coming back
Exoniensis undamaged
The rest are coming back from the roots, save for a few.
Max P.

Here is a link that might be useful: Flickr Page


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Hah! Figured it out, it was the new beta version of flickr, I switched back.
Passiflora 'Exoniensis'
Passiflora 'Exoniensis'
Passiflora 'Oaklandia'
Passiflora 'Oaklandia'


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RE: I am surprised

  • Posted by mark4321 10a CA Sunset 16/17 (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 6, 14 at 19:43

I may have mentioned this elsewhere, but I've heard from a couple people that Passiflora trisecta can take more heat than most Tacsonias. That is a white-flowered, bat-pollinated species, which is particularly cool for that reason alone. Sold by both Grassy Knoll and Annie's.

Max, P. x exoniensis looks great and it can bloom at that size. Any sign of little buds?

When viable they look like this, but it may make smaller, non-viable ones for a while:

exoniensis buds photo exoniensis_buds.jpg


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RE: I am surprised

  • Posted by mark4321 10a CA Sunset 16/17 (My Page) on
    Thu, Mar 6, 14 at 19:44

(duplicate deleted)

This post was edited by mark4321 on Thu, Mar 6, 14 at 19:47


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RE: I am surprised

No buds yet. The very topmost growth got caught in the screen door, but looks okay, albeit a little crooked. I would assume that would be where the blooms come from?
I have trisect as well, wintered in the garage. Next year I'm going to leave it out to see what it does.


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What beautiful passionflower vines, glad you got to post your pictures. What fertilizer do you use? I understand that for passionflowers, a fertilizer with a different balance that favors more potassium and less nitrogen is helpful for flowering. The only passionflower I have that did not like our winter was 'Panama Red.' It is coming back and leafing out. The native Maypops have just come up in my yard and I had to mark them, as our yard guy weed whacks them every year. 'Blue Eyed Susan' and 'Lady Margaret' are growing well. I also have 'Panda, ' P. loefgreenii, P. incarnata 'Alba,' and 'Ruby Glow.'


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I fertilize my vines with whatever I have on hand. Usually organic, but sometimes not. No matter what I'm fertilizing, though, I always use a low-analysis fertilizer, to reduce the risk of burning the plant. Another factor is our clay soil, which already contains many of the nutrients that plants need. It sounds like you've got the formula down, use a fertilizer with more phosphorus and potassium, and less nitrogen.


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