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mark4321_gw

Passiflora caerulea ID times two

mark4321_gw
15 years ago

This is a long question...

I have two totally independent questions about P. caerulea ID. I should know the answer to one of them in a couple days; possibly also for the second. I have additional questions about the second plant beyond the mere identification.

PLANT ONE: the nursery says it's P. 'Blue Horizon'. They give a picture:

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:EcZRWVgn1z0J:www.anniesannuals.com/plants/plant_display.asp%3Fprodid%3D1989%26account%3Dnone+annie%27s+blue+horizon&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Now to me, this kind of looks exactly like P. caerulea (Myles' photo):

http://www.passionflow.co.uk/common-passion-flower-passiflora-caerulea.htm

And not P. 'Blue Horizon' (Suncrest Nusery photo):

http://www.suncrestnurseries.com/images/passbluehorizon.jpg

Two questions: 1) Is the picture indeed P. caerulea? 2) Any guesses as to which the plant will be?

For (2) I will have the answer in a couple days, when a flower opens--I'm just curious if people want to venture a guess.

SECOND PLANT:

I was at our community gardens recently, which have a demonstration garden. They have a very large Passionvine covering an arbor. There were lots of fruit on the vine, lots on the ground. I had a long conversation with a master gardener working there about other things--she encouraged me to take some fruit. I didn't give it a close look, but I didn't notice any flowers. The fruit looked like P. caerulea. Later I opened up some fruit--4 total. Each had about 20 seeds--so very far from full. The pulp/arils were bright red--after putting seeds between moist napkins the napkins turned orange.

So I again may have an answer in 2 days. I'll check back at the garden. I'll email the master gardeners. If I can't find out, though, what can I say? Can I assume there are caerulea hybrids that retain the red pulp? Could the fact that ALL the fruits had few seeds suggest that it's a less fertile hybrid? Is there anything else I can figure out?

I'll check back in a couple days with the results of the identity of plant 1. If I find anything out about the second plat I'll post it.

I also have a few packs of 8 seeds from the second plant for an SASBE.

As an aside, I am looking for P. 'Elizabeth'. Obviously a discussion of trades would take place elsewhere. However, I live in the SF bay area, and I have no problem checking out local nurseries to find a trade--we have a lot of interesting stuff not available everywhere. Annie's Annuals and Perennials is an obvious choice.

Here is a link that might be useful: annie's annuals and perennials

Comments (7)

  • passionflow
    15 years ago

    Re Plant One
    Not P. 'Blue Horizon'. The darker band on the corona filaments is more obvious than on most P. caerulea but as it is a very variable species I would say it is P. caerulea.

    Re Plant Two
    Mark, you have to learn to take pictures whenever possible, even if just of foliage and not flowers! It does sound like a caerulea hybrid though - which typically, but not always have less than full fruit.
    Myles

    Here is a link that might be useful: Passiflora 'Ely'

  • mark4321_gw
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Myles,

    Thanks for all the feedback. Since the photo for the first plant doesn't match the label, it will be interesting to see what I get. I've had problems before with them getting a little sloppy--in one case showing a "photo" of a fruit that doesn't exactly exist in nature--a long and very strange story. That particular plant has turned out to be one of my favorites. Similarly, I would be happy with either P. 'Blue Horizon' or P. caerulea, neither of which I have. I should find out soon, and then I'll try to get a photo.

    Regarding the second plant, it's across town, and even if I did have a camera at the time (I have enough problems with a cell phone!) I wouldn't have thought of taking a picture--at the time I had just assumed it was P. caerulea. It was only later that I questioned WHY it had to be P. caerulea, and indeed the fact that the fruits had a modest number of seeds made me wonder. I sent off an email to the master gardeners (the organization founded by Nancy Garrison, btw) and they forwarded my question (is it P. caerulea or a specific caerulea hybrid?) to the woman I had spoken to. I trust that she can either answer this question or can track down someone who knows. So hopefully I'll hear back in a couple days. If I haven't heard and I'm in that part of town I'll either take a picture and look for late flowers or if I'm camera-less I'll take a leaf home.

  • mark4321_gw
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Myles,

    This should eliminate some possiblities.

    Plant #1 photos--the leaves show 3,4 or 5 lobes.

    So not P. caerulea, correct? So the plant does not match the pictured flower shown above in the Nursery's catalog.

    The bloom will open soon, so I'll see whether it is indeed 'Blue Horizon' (one would hope they got that right).

    Plant #2: I was over in that part of town and I was able to pick up a couple fallen leaves and a fruit. The leaves lost their shape some point after I picked them up--probably because they were no longer lying flat:

    I take it the 5 and 7 lobes are in fact consistent with P. caerulea. I didn't see any obvious patterns when I looked at the petiole glands, but there were a number. The other plant--it was getting dark and I didn't get a good look--it looked like maybe pairs at roughly 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 up the petiole--but usually 2 and not 3 pairs (?)--as I say it was quickly getting dark. Plus I really don't have experience looking at such things.

    I suppose I could have eliminated P. caerulea as a possibility for plant #1 immediately if I had a copy of Passiflora: Passionflowers of the World by Ulmer and John M. MacDougal...

    It's Miles to the rescue!

    {{gwi:31445}}

    OK, that's not completely true. While that is in fact Miles (my little nephew), the book is on it's way by USPS. I ordered it way back on Monday...

    Hopefully Timber Press won't sue me, but here's the sort of thing you find in the book. It would have made plant 1 very clear (i.e. not P. caerulea):

    I assume the above is a violation of copyright law, but Timber Press is such a great publisher you should actually buy as many of their books as you can. No joke.

  • mark4321_gw
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Plant #1 has bloomed.

    The verdict is: P. 'Blue Horizon' ?

    For some reason I'm not 100% sure--is the dark band on the corona filaments wide enough? The long length of the sepal awn (learned a new word--the pointed extension) seems consistent, though. Is this unusual? You may have to look at other pictures to see this clearly.

    I gave the plant a quick look and couldn't tell whether it was a seedling or a cutting. I didn't see any evidence it was the latter, though. I would assume if they were mass producing them from cuttings one would see mostly cut ends. How might I tell if it were a seedling? The plant is only about 1 1/2 feet long. I just found old flower stalks are apparent as far close to 4 inches to the base of the plant. So it's a cutting. I mention this because the nursery grows almost everything from seed.

  • mark4321_gw
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Plant #2: I heard back from the Master Gardener. The plant is indeed P. caerulea, bought from Raintree Nursery.

  • passionflow
    15 years ago

    Mark
    I think Plant 1 is P. 'Blue Horizon'. I am sure that the nursery will grow all its hybrids from cuttings.
    Myles

  • mark4321_gw
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Myles,

    I agree with you on plant #1. However, the nursery has had problems in the past. I bought, for example, a kiwi where the sign said 'Issai' "self-fertle" (acually parthenocarpic). I noticed later the tag said Issai's Children'--seedlings, presumaby. The plant did in face have seed leaves Finally, I was told that the fact that the plant was furry suggested A. deliciosa in its background. The nursery confirmed the plant was 100% A. deliciosa. They said they were slow to replace the signs and tags

    So anyway, when I see a plant like that where they've screwed up the picture (in this case they used P. caerulea) it makes me wondr what else might be screwed up.

    In my opinion Annie's is the best kept secret among California nurseries. It's not perfeect, though.
    arrived.

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