I cannot find composted pine bark fines. Only the available pine barks are decorative in two different sizes. The 7-15 mm is the smallest size available here. I cannot find turface and micro nutrients powder. The garden lime is not Dolomite and peat moss/sphagnum are look like mixed with compost too. Coco coir is also available. I heard that cat litter can be the replacement of turface but cat litter are very expensive here. We have two types of cat litter one is lighter and almost transparent crystal, another one is heavy and brown color. I do not like to get both of them.

1. Is it possible to use decorative pine bark instead of pine bark fines?

2. Is it very important to screen the pine barks (I'd like to make this preparation without screening)?

3. What is the purpose of screening, is it for the uniform size and to find non-pine bark materials?

4. Should I remove some pieces of wood I found in the pine barks?

I do not do gardening for profit I am just a hot chili container gardening enthusiast and new in this newly found hobby. I have been doing all my best to success this first time growing hot chili in containers. I have read this thread http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0212444023053.html but I think I cannot get my answers.

Any help and advice will be appreciated.

Regards,
Caelian

For the 5-1-1, you only need to remove the largest pieces of bark - bark over 1/2 inch (10mm).

1) Yes, I use decorative bark, uncomposted, exclusively.

2) Remove the bark that is over 10mm.

3) Screening promotes a more uniform mix with more predictable moisture-retention and drainage.

4) Yes, remove as much of that sapwood as possible. It decomposes quickly compared to bark.

With uncomposted bark, I would highly recommend a slow-release fertilizer mixed in.

Josh

Slow releasing fertilizer I have seen in the garden center but I cannot remember the NPK. I an going to prepare the mix at least two weeks before I use it.

I am going to grow only the hot and super hot chilies in this soil so weekly fertilizer is the advice as much as I remembered if it is wrong please give me correction.

You mentioned something about "ammonium toxicity and urea based nitrogen" in the container gardening forum. Could you please a little bit explain about this fertilizer. My friend is started use "urea" she told me it is nitrogen but she does not know much about advantage and disadvantage of it. She use the soil probably 2 parts mill pin barks, 1 part paddy husk and 2 part organic compost plus small amount of building sand.

Regards,

Caelian

The lime you have is okay.

Remove pieces of sapwood (not bark) - it takes up the available nitrogen as it decomposes. Don't worry too much about the size of the pine bark. 7-15mm is okay. No need to screen unless there are lots of fines or lots of large pieces. You screen only to make the size relatively consistent.

I use Osmocote fertilizer to mix with my soil. If you don't have that, do a web search for it to try to match it with what you can get.

The 5-1-1 recipe calls for Perlite and Peat. However, the peat fraction can be any
peat-based potting soil, a good quality compost, even coco coir in a pinch, Caelian.

You also asked about ammonium toxicity, and I missed it ;-)
With Urea-based nitrogen and certain organic fertilizers, the unused portion of fertilizer
sitting in cold soil can cause ammonium build-up. I have read that this occurs when soil temps
are routinely under 50F (10C). This is why using Fish Emulsion in containers during cold weather
is not recommended.

Josh

I'll use perlite it is available here and cheap. I will try to find something like Osmocote Fertilizer too.

I have multiple choices for peat-based potting soil, compost, coco coir and sphagnum. Sphagnum is recently available to my area I have never seen it before only I have heard. So I'd like to try sphagnum. I will tell to my friend about urea based nitrogen, the temperature over there is under 10 C at night time.

Regards,
Caelian

Thank you DMForcier for the name "Osmocote" and the opinions it makes me easier to find the slow-release fertilizer in the garden center. They knew the name but they do not have so they gave a similar one.

This slow-release fertilizer is also for flowers.

For this Al's 511 I would like to use this sphagnum and the slow-release fertilizer.

Please advise me anything else to make this 511 correctly.

Regards,

Caelian

Josh

These are the screened pbarks :)

screened pine barks

My quest of Al'(Tapla) 5.1.1 is getting progress I think :), thank you for helping me Josh.

Regards,

Caelian

Just to be clear, you do not want sapwood. Pick it out if you see it.

For a screener I use wire screen (aka wire cloth) with 1/2" [12.7 mm] square holes nailed or stapled to a wooden frame. The pieces that don't fall through have no dimension smaller than 1/2". They become mulch. The other half of the operation is to use screen with 1/8" holes to let pieces smaller than 1/8" fall out. These "fines" could consist of sawdust, which is mostly sapwood.

Your "sphagnum" looks like a combination of soil/compost and moss. Probably okay. You might want to use a little extra in the mix since there is so much air in it.

Did you get the perlite?

By the way I got only one bee :).

I have to find wire screen, may be next week I can get it. Before I have bought the pine bark I was thinking to make this 511 without screening as I mentioned before. After I got the pine bark then I changed my mind, sorry. It is a kind of magic of 511, feeling like to follow all the procedure correctly :).

You are right the sphagnum is mixed with organic compost and added lime too according to the labeled on the bag; I would like to screen it because I found big composted barks.

I have perlite the size is very small, I cannot find bigger size.

The doses of slow-release fertilizer and garden lime are not very clear to me, I have read somewhere in the forum but I cannot remember very well. Could you please tell me about these doses?

Thank you for helping me.

Regards,

Caelian

1 gallon of 5.1.1 gritty mix + 1 tablespoon garden lime?
1 gallon of 5.1.1 gritty mix + ? slow-release fertilizer

Caelian

I don't think the size of the perlite is important. Perhaps that's a good question to ask in the Container forum.

1 Tablespoon Garden Lime per Gallon of soil mix, yes.

For the slow-release, use the amount indicated on the package.

I prefer to add only a light amount of slow-release to start,
and then I take over fertilization with a liquid fertilizer for
the rest of the growing season.

It is possible to produce awesome plants with slow-release by itself, of course -
you just need to add more after a few months.

Josh

Now I do not have big enough plants for transplantation in this Al's 5:1:1, but I have prepared this mix for a small container today for a trail, after two weeks I would like to try one plant.

Caelian

Mark

Ohh DMForcier, thank you for the correction. I did not know
:(.

Josh the sphagnum is not very moisten it is almost dry.

Should I spray some water on the mixed soil?

I was thinking to wait two weeks but I couldn't so I transplanted very young two plants:)

The plants in the middle has grown in 1 part perlite 1/2 part peat moss and 1/2 part organic Compost.

Thank you all for helping me.

Regards,

Caelian

I do moisten the mix as I make it, which helps bind the ingredients together and evenly
distribute the Garden Lime.

These pots are a bit large for these seedlings, and the mix should hold moisture well,
so be sure not to overwater. Pale, yellow plants will be a sure indication. For now,
stick a wooden skewer, dowel, or long toothpick all the way into the pot, and leave it.
Check the stick every couple days to determine if there is moisture in the bottom of the
container. This will help you to keep from overwatering.

Josh

Thank you for the tips of monitoring the moisture. I will try to find out a bit smaller containers for the seedlings. Thank you for the advice.

Really I like this 5.1.1 when I touch it I feel it is going to be so good and my plants will love it :). I will update the progress time to time and if I have problems I will request for help here.

Best regards,

Caelian

Al's 5.1.1 Updates.

Thank you for helping me.The 5.1.1 is still doing fine. I have changed some of the over-sized containers for seedlings too.

Josh, I have few questions of 5.1.1.

Is it normal the 5.1.1 shrunk a little bit (small container only) when it is getting dry?

If I did something wrong please give me correction. This container soil is a bit shrunk.

Should I remove the small size ( very small/sand like) pine barks from the 5.1.1?

Should I screen for all these small particles?

I found the pine bark has sand like dust a lot so I am thinking to rinse the barks, however I am not sure it is a good idea or not. I am also thinking to flush water before I mix perlite and sphagnum a kind of cleaning the barks.Please provide me some advice.

The soil aeration is pretty good, the water came out immediately from the drainage hole when I poured a little bit more. Some of the particles are water retentive I think, but I am not sure it is normal or not. According to your advice I use skewers and some of the big containers's skewers are found wet.

Is it normal?

By the way I watered everyday :). I am going to stop watering everyday now.

Wet skewer:

Any help and advice will be very much appreciated.

Regards,

Caelian

Don't water every day ;-) Let the mix dry a bit before watering -
if the skewer is wet, don't water. This mix will hold plenty of moisture.
In the pic with the skewer in the container, the plant looks pale from too much moisture.
Let that container dry out, and see if the green color improves.

Rinsing the bark free of fines is not necessary, but I do like to rinse my Perlite to get
rid of the excess dust before adding it to the bark.

The seedling looks like it didn't germinate well, and something happened to the root.

Josh

I am very slow learner, I am not yet familiar with the 5.1.1. Still I keep learning most of my dark color 5.1.1 soil are heavier (over watered) than the light color. I thought 5.1.1 cannot hold water much.

The pale color plant may be got too much water, you already told me the container is big too. Now I realized that the container size of the seedling is very important. I was thinking to change the container but I think it will be more stressful to the plant so I keep it. In fact I watered a lot, when I saw the dry upper layer of the soil. The skewers I used before were not good too, it never got wet. I changed the new skewers yesterday.

I deleted the last picture seedling I think it is not relevant here. Sometimes my seedling containers fell down and spilled the soil accidentally so this seedling may be one of them I did not put it back properly.

Thanks,

Caelian

The 5-1-1 holds plenty of moisture, indeed :-) But it also holds lots of air, which is important.
Letting the mix dry a bit is essential to strong root-growth - first roots grow, then leaves grow.

Indoors, during the Winter, 5-1-1 could hold moisture for a week (or longer, depending upon
container size). The surface bark of the mix will look dry after just a day or two, and so that is
why we use the skewer in the pot so that our eyes don't fool us ;-)

If you set the big container on a stack of newspaper, that might wick out some excess moisture.

Josh

This skewer is some kinds of water proof, very hard and when we polished it shines like plastic, probably oak tree. It made me fool :) every two days I checked the skewers I found it always same. The one I use right now are very light and absorb water very easily.

Thank you josh.

Caelian

Josh use Turface and Teyo use expanded clay.

I asked the same question to Josh his answer is:

"Caelian, Leca is very large from what I've seen.
If it were broken into smaller shards and chips, it would work.

Do you have an autoparts store that sells calcined clay for absorbing oils?

Napa auto parts #8822 is an excellent (and more cost effective) substitute for turface."

Teyo's suggestion is cat litter. I am going to use cat litter because Turface is not easy to find here now.

This link may be helpful to you.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pepper/msg0112042712192.html?3 1

Caelian

i'm going to put here the pictures of the type of expanded clay i use, since there is no turface and no diatomaceous earth available, we do have pumice but it is much more expensive then this. bonsai growers use this clay to great success, and while exploring my options i have come to the conclusion it is just as good as other calcined clays. maybe it helps someone.
it is produced by a company called Liapor, and sold for plants under the name Floreopor, and for construction and isolation properties under the name Liapor. the difference is that the construction one is usually mostly unbroken pellets, and the plant one is broken/crushed pellets that expose the internal pores better.
i use the smaller liapor granules (1-4mm) for seedlings and larger floreopor broken granules for larger plants (4-8mm).

these are the larger granules, floreopor, or sometimes also called liadrain

this is a comparison side by side of the two types, on the right are the smaller granules, and on the left the larger crushed ones:

these are the smaller granules with the hand as a size reference

and a tree planted in larger crushed granules, floreopor

where i live floreopor (4-8mm) costs 4 euro for a 50l bag, and liapor (1-4mm) costs 9 euro for a 50l bag. there is very little dust in this, i don't sift it, just wash it in a kitchen drainer.

Caelian has posted images of the kitty litter made from DE he found locally, and here is a link explaining how it works, and some reports from all over the world on where there is DE kitty litter available:
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

please understand, not all kitty litter is suitable to be used as a soil replacement, only the types that do not turn to mush when wetted. the advantage is that this type of litter is generally very cheap.

The expanded clay in your picture is called here LECACULOR. It is from Sweden these websites are from the bag, http://www.econova.se/ and the distributor is http://weibulls.com/ . The available size is 8-16mm. 16 liter is cost about 7EURO/ $9.

4 EURO for 50l bag is very cheap to compare the price here. It looks good too. Now I do not know are they available here. Since yesterday the cat litter is still my first choice :).

I do not grow bonsai, I have bought one before and the LECACULOR I used is just feeling the gapes as mulch. I removed the soil because it looked too much in the container.

Have a nice day.

Caelian

When I saw it in your picture I thought they are LECA :). May be Liapor/Floreopor are available here with different names.

Caelian

Josh

I think it is expanded clay you mentioned. I saw it many times before I started container gardening I though it was sand. We use it for snow/ice related problems for our roads/streets.Today I picked up some of them and realized that it is not sand. If it is the one you mentioned then we can have our own version. I'll find out more information.

Thank you again Teyo, you are very resourceful and helpful.

New container gardener,

Caelian

Eric

Eric

Of course, I'm always looking for good ingredients to stockpile ;)

Josh

Eric

Eric, Josh told me about NAPA and I am not yet found and I give more attention on expanded clay Teyo mentioned before, this expanded clay is very good. Sorry for the pictures I thought it is too much pictures unnecessarily.

New container gardener,
Caelian

Caelian, thanks for the compliments, i'm not that seasoned a gardener but i read and learn as much as i can. Glad to be able to help a fellow eu gardener ;) one other thing, i don't know how close Danish and Finnish people are, but there is a great chilli fanatic in Finland who uses all sorts of advanced growing methods in your climate conditions. i suggest you take a peak at his site and forum, i'm sure you'll find some more local information and ideas for you: http://fatalii.net/growing/
I really love his site, always learn something new there :)

Eric

As for DE, i'd just dunk it in a bucket if water and leave for a few days, but would change water each day. It should rinse out anything. I used a kind of kitty litter before while experimenting that wasn't DE but some crappy sort of clay (it was more or less stable) that was perfumed heavily and had some colored granules too.I'd rinse it like that and the stinky and colored stuff would wash away fine. The plants didn't mind one bit. Later i ditched that for the expanded clay which i now use.

Eric

Here is a picture of an NFT system that I use for smaller leaf lettuce. Left open and reservoir put away for the winter so no ice will crack anything.

Teyo, the fatalli.net's bonsai chili plants are so beautiful, I am very surprised to see their skills. I will try to get more information from there that's useful here.

Thank you all.

New container gardener,

Caelian

Eric

Caelian, apologies for stealing your topic (again :)) ), glad you like fatalii's site ;) he has some sick hydro chillies growing!

Teyo, you are not stealing the topic :)but you elaborate the topic that's I like. I never think anyone stealing a topic. I started and we share together, we elaborate the topic together, someone started I shared too. One person one topic :( I do not like it, I like we all share and elaboration, whoever started he or she can ask the questions if he or she cannot get her or his answers.

Fatalii dot net forum is in Finnish it is very different from Danish. When I read the forum I used Google translation. I'll try to communicate with the forum members there they might knew a lot of useful things to use here too.

I have a question to you, Josh, Eric and others whoever can help me. I got a lot of small pine bark particles after I screened the pine bark with two different sieves so should I remove it or should I use it just like soil conditioner? Have a look.

You made me think something about hijacking other people's topic :). If I hijacked someone's topic before unintentionally so I honestly convey my apology for that.

Thank you all.

New container gardener,

Caelian

Eric

Josh

Josh

Eric

If it is not very expensive and complicated then I would like to try with one nice hydroponic ghost pepper. It should be the center of attraction in my room.

You are right about the fatalii.net when I log in normally without username I got the English version and if i log in with my user name then the forum changed to Finnish. I think I may made mistake when I chose the language. Thank you for the information.

New container gardener,
Caelian

Eric

New container gardener,
Caelian

For the comparison purpose I uploaded the picture again.

The middle seedling's (2) soil is 1 part perlite, 0.5 peat moss and 0.5 compost and the rest are 5:1:1.

All these three seedlings were re-potted in small size containers on the same day. The present conditions of the seedlings. The (2) is not in the 5:1:1 and the color is pale and the rest of the seedlings are in 5:1:1 and the color are dark green.

Still I keep learning Al's 5:1:1.

New container gardener,

Caelian

New container gardener,

Caelian

Josh

I am really happy with Tapla Al's 5:1:1. Still I keep learning to use 5:1:1 effectively.

Thank you for helping me.

New container gardener,

Caelian

By the way, I received the nice message from you in my e-mail, but there was no way
to reply to you (your profile isn't set to receive replies), so I will say thank you here :-)

Josh

For the Al's 5:1:1 proper screening is very important, my opinion is based on my experiences.

These sapwood has no problems for me :

But this one has real problem, it is water retentive and when it dried the size getting smaller that shrunk the soil . Really I hate it.

These pine bark fine is after multiple screening it works so good for me:

I made a second batch with it, I love it. It is so good for the plant. I really respect Tapla and Josh's efforts to help us to have a good potting soil.

Have a nice weekend everyone :)

Caelian