Bruce

Only other thing i can think of is overwatering? or possibly some fungus or something?

I have a small maui purple pepper plant that is about 4 inches tall and still has cotyledons. They do fall off eventually, but i think they usually stay on the plant til quite a few sets of the true leaves grow.

Jim

I know its not a pepper, but I have a melon vine now that's over a foot long with 4-5 sets of leaves that still has it's cots.

Could be over/under watering.
could be too much fert I suppose. But thats just a guess.

Like people, each plant develops in its own way on its own schedule.

JMHO

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this isn't a terminal problem that will become widespread and eventually fatal. I have three to four seedlings in each container and plant to keep only one so I have numbers on my side.
Bruce

My seedlings typically retain their cotyledons until they go into the ground (or containers).
Once in the ground, pests eat the lower leaves, or else they turn yellow and fall off from
the cool, wet soils of Spring.

Josh

Mark

Josh: Awesome pick there.
Thanks again,
Bruce

Its easy to do.

OK, here's the dope (not the hydroponics store kind)...

Cotyledon leafs are part of the embryonic structure of seeds. Their sole purpose is to provide the newly hatched seedling with energy until it has enough chlorophyll producing true leaves to sustain itself. Once the plant has no more use for them they die off. Timing of them dying/falling off varies greatly even within the same species. Environmental conditions will also affect when Cotyledons are dropped.

The above being said, over watering seedlings/larger plants can cause leaf drop (including Cotyledons) if not corrected in time. If Cotyledons drop before the first true leaf(s) are formed, you will loose the seedling.

FWIW

I did look at some photos of my plants from last year and the seed leaves were still there after they were several inches tall.

Wish me luck.
Bruce

Just an idea.

Good luck friend, I know the pain of loosing them young.

My experience is probably atypical, particularly in that I grow my peppers in dry conditions.
You can see in the pic I posted that the lowest leaves - the cotyledons - are lighter green
that the first set of true leaves. Sometimes, when I plant my seedlings, I actually remove
the cotyledons because they touch the surface of the soil or the container mix and make another
pathway for pests to climb my plants. If holes begin to appear in the lower leaves, I yank the
leaves immediately...and dump on the Sluggo!

Bill, great tip about the fan. I have a paddle-fan above the table where I start my seeds,
and I try to turn it on for three hours a day at least, especially when the lights are on.

Josh

Bruce

Hope you don't mind me chiming in, while waiting for Josh's response. I use orchid mix the past two years it better than just potting soil's way better results with seed germination rates. What did you use for your mix? You may have stated but I don't remember.

Mark

My comments on drying came from work at a nursery, where frequently the medium would wash out of the pots and one guy replaced it with mulch. Those pots were just constant trouble. Everyone always thought they needed more water. Maybe it is a case of not being able to accurately judge moisture by sight based on experience with finer particles? Just trying to help the OP have pepper happiness, not stir up anything about growing media. Cheers!

And it's not an "It works for me" comment. The principles that I'm practicing will work for most
gardeners, barring extreme circumstances or exceptional situations. I'm not trying to stir anything
up, either; it's just that this particular "someone" has been here from the start, advocating porous,
well-aerated mixes for seed-starting and seasonal growing.

Bruce, the seedling mix is significantly drier than the mix I use for the Summer.
For seedling mix, I screen my particles so that they fall in the range of 1/8 to 1/4 inch.
The ingredients are in equal parts: fir bark, perlite, and a porous grit (pumice, turface...).

During the Summer, I use the more moisture-retentive mix: 5 parts fir bark, 1 - 2 parts perlite,
and then 1 part of a fine particulate (peat, potting soil, turface, compost) to increase moisture.

The beauty of a well-aerated mix is that you know it's going to dry out, and you know you can water.

Josh

Bruce

Bruce

Have you tried transplanting a few of them into other planting medium to see how those do?

Sandy

Notice the difference in the color of the soil of the surrounding containers. The bell pepper container is in row 2 column 4:

Bruce

So I planted my bhut seeds in a Peat Pellet starter kit (3 seeds per pellet)... when it came time to transplant, I decided to break apart the peat pellets and save as many seedlings as I could.

out of a dozen pellets (3 seeds each) I had four pellets with no sprouts and 1 with a single sprout. The pellet with only 1 plant I put directly into a new pot (the way starter kit instructs you to do). That plant is least 2x if not 3x as big as all the others, even though it also has dark leaves.

The temperature around here has been in upper 70's during the day and mid 60's at night. I've been keeping my plants outside under the oak trees where they can get sun and shade. Hoopefully that will help them recover as well.

These are some of seedlings that went through the "traumatic transplanting".

This is the "properly transplanted" bhut.

If I did kill the majority of the transplants, the four pellets that had no sprouts.... have finally sprouted. It took a long time, hopefully these I won't screw up.

in the top corner of this pic is another peat pellet with a new sprout just coming up... I put a dozen chiltepin seeds in there 3 weeks ago. I had never harvested seeds before, and I'm very happy to see some signs of life from these.

I don't really know anything about the darkening leaves. I would be surprised if it was from over watering, though. That tends to cause them to lighten/yellow then fall off.

up until this week they have all been crowded under a 4' shop light (2 daylight bulbs). A few days ago I started moving them outside. If it's not the watering... maybe it was the light? though i haven't seen any improvement since moving outside...

1/2 the plants were transplanted into 3" pots with scotts garden soil... I ran out of pots and put the others into some 8-packs of eco fiber seed starter cells (1" cow pots). those have a mix of re-used peat and scotts garden soil.

Josh

I think that new container in the center will give me the opportunity to determine if the soil mix I used is just that way or if I accidently added something unintended to it or if maybe it is a result of over watering. If it stays lighter, and the seedlings don't develop darkened seed leaves, then I know it isn't just the soil but something I did wrong. I am making sure I water the new container separate from all the others and making sure that I don't over water it from the start. It just has sprouts from that store bought bell pepper and I didn't intend to grow any bells, but I just know I wont be able to bring at least one of the little fellas to full term.
Bruce

Here are my Jalepenos: Same story

Orange Tree Habaneros: They have no seed leaves left at all. The leaves you see are the first set of true leaves.

These are my Red Tree Habanero Plants. The one darker colored seedling in the foreground still has it's seed leaves, the rest have all dropped and what you see are the first set of true leaves which, like the other true leaves are green.

Now, these are an exception. These are supposed to be Butch T Trinidad Scorpions from another list member. They seem to be relatively un-phased. Although, they do seem to be behind schedule as do the others.

Now here is another slight variation. These are supposed to be Black Cubans (also from another list member) and while they are not really showing significant seed leaf drop, they are completely purple. This could be a trait for Black Cubans, I don't know. But even their true leaves look to be coming in dark colored.

Then, I have my Twilights (from list member). Like most of the other varieties, have dropped all their seed leaves and have just a small single pair of true leaves that are so far green.

Then, my last variety: Pepperoncini, seem to be holding their seed leaves pretty well but are quite dark colored. The true leaves seem to be coming in green so far.

Finally, a picture of my Orange Bell peppers which I planted much later and which have just in the last day or so started to turn dark purple. I was hoping they wouldn't turn purple and that way I could assume the problem was something I watered the others with early on.

The thing that I don't understand is that I have several house plants using this soil mix as well as three overwinter pepper plants (Bhut and two Hot Hungarian Wax). All of them are doing quite well and all have very normal colored foliage. And the peppers have been in that soil for a couple months longer than the seedlings. Could it be the lighting? I run 3 - 4' shoplights with 40W T12 bulbs. 4 bulbs are daylight 6500K and two are grow lights mixed in. The grow lights were swapped in a couple weeks ago.

So, I am probably past the point of starting a new batch and since these are not dying, I will probably stick with them until the die...if they do. Never-the-less, I am already behind in my schedule. They have been going about 5 weeks now and should be putting out two to three sets of true leaves by now. Last year I had 3" tall good looking plants at 5 weeks.

Bruce

On my last post six days ago, I noted that I stared some fresh Sweet Banana Pepper seeds directly into the MG orchid mix soil. As of today, non have sprouted. I expect to see something tomorrow or the day after. If they fail to turn purple and continue to grow at a normal rate without losing their seed leaves prematurely, then I will have my definite answer that it was the soil. But, I am already pretty confident that is the problem.

Wish me luck, a week from now, I should know 100% if it was the soil and I should know if the transplanted seedlings are indeed ready to break out of their slump and go on a growth spurt and save my season. Even if they do, I am down to very little room for further problems as I will have barely as many plants left as I want to end up with this summer.

Bruce

I think the ones in the MG Orchid mix will bounce back and start taking off in the next week or two. But at least you have your overwintered one ahead of the game season wise, good thing your overwintered plants were a success. Keep us posted with updates.

Mark

Here is one of the seedlings that I transplanted just over a week ago.

Even with the transplant shock it is way ahead of the others but for a seedling that sprouted about 6 weeks ago, it is still woefully way behind. I just hope all the transplanted ones start grow at a normal to fast rate now. I have trashed all the ones still in the old soil.
Bruce

Did you mention that the old soil was hardwood bark/mulch?
I'm wondering if there was serious nitrogen immobilization going on?
Had you done any fertilizing?

Josh

One thing though, When i watered, I did bottom up watering by dunking the containers in a bucket of water and letting it soak the soil. After a couple of containers, the water took on a dark ting to it. I figured it was tannins from the mulch. I am not sure it that was the issue or some other reason the mulch wasn't working for my seedlings. Seems the seedlings did great until they were forced to start relying on the soil for nutrients instead of the seed leaves. Then they just stalled out and soon after the seed leaves mostly died. So, it seems a lack of some nutrient could be the cause. I may never know but I do know I will go with something more tested next year. Probably just stick with the MG Orchid Mix as it seems to work fine for me on my seedlings.
Bruce

Hardwood mulch is no good for containers. Hardwoods don't have the high amounts of lignin and
suberin that are found in conifer bark, and so the hardwood/sapwood decomposes more rapidly,
compacts more rapidly, heats up as it decomposes, and binds Nitrogen as it decomposes. Could
also be root-inhibiting chemicals in the mulch, indeed.

Josh

After I posted last, I got to thinking that maybe the PH is all out of whack on that stuff too. I never tested it. I have one of those testers but never took the time to use it. I may grab a sample and see what it tests out at. I am just glad I have gotten past that issue and I am hoping to see few if any more issues until I get these things to size and get them in their permanent containers.

So, I will report back what I get on the PH test and if that is OK then we can conclude that it is likely your Nitrogen/decomposition/binding/lignin/suberin thing. In the end, all that matters is I don't use that stuff any more. haha.

80 degrees again today, my little fellas get some more time outside.
Bruce

pH test is a good idea. I'll check back.

Josh

Regarding snow, yes, we have a better chance of snow this time of year than we do temps in the 70's and 80's. We are getting temps 40 degrees above normal for mid March. And we have been way above normal for weeks.
This is a picture from March 31st last year.

Bruce

Last update to this thread. I consider the problem resolved.
Thanks for all the advice and support.
Bruce

Mark

Josh

I had a few more bhuts in peat pellets that took longer to sprout. so instead of digging the plants out of the pellets i pruned to just 1 plant and this time i used "miracle grow cactus soil" (oringally i used an dirt from a very old bag of scott's garden soil). On one pellet I kept two plants growing, just to see what would happen.

The difference is huge, the plants in miracle grow are larger than the orginals (which should me a full month ahead).

1 of the original transplants, still alive but very sad looking.

one of the new translplants

my 2 in 1 transplant

this was one of my first transplants. only 1 plant sprouted in the pellet so i put the whole pellet in the scotts soil. at first it looked great but now it's starting to darken.

Hmmmm, that does look pretty reminiscent of my problem. That Bhut in the bottom picture as well as the top photo looks a lot like ground up "Wood" which is what my stuff was made out of. Coincidentally, both of those are the ones exhibiting the darkening of the leaves. The problem my plants were having was clearly the soil. I transplanted them all to an Orchid Mix and within a couple days they took off and the darkening is all but gone. I also started a brand new container of Sweet banana pepper seeds in the orchid mix and they are doing great with no darkening of the seed leaves or emerging true leaves whatsoever.

Did you bottom water your plants (meaning you basically set them in a bucket of water and let the water soak from the bottom up)? If so, did your water begin to darken like a cup of tea after watering a couple containers. Mine did. But it stays clear with the orchid mix. I think there were tannins in that wood. Anyway, my advice is to get your seedlings into some more main stream growing medium asap.

When I transplanted mine after 40 days, most barely had a set of true leaves. Some were barely visible and most had lost their seed leaves already. As soon as I put them in good soil, they began growing normal. They have made more progress in the last two weeks than they did the previous 5 weeks.

Bruce

Mine seem fine in the cactus mix, but I wonder what the difference.

The cactus mix is pretty expensive (for the size of bag).