I would have expected much better root development. (This is a 7 Pot Jonah cross from ottawapepper, germinated 4-Feb.)

Even the larger, healthier plants I transplanted this weekend from 3" pots have few or no roots showing at the pot boundary. Soil is 'regulation' 5:1:1, and they've been getting quite a bit of full sun.

greenman suggested upping the ferts, which I am now doing, but I wonder if there is something else going on?

How many of your plants are puny weaklings?

(I'll get together some more pics. What do you want to see?)

This post was edited by DMForcier on Sun, Mar 31, 13 at 21:46

All of my plants are puny, truth be told.
I was so worried about over-fertilizing that I erred in the opposite direction. Now that I'm fertilizing properly, they are doing much better - two days after the first dose, they were visibly greener. Thankfully I have until the end of May to get them sized up and ready for 5-gallon containers.

Regulation 5-1-1, with Dolomitic Lime. Did you add any slow-release fertilizer? I usually do...but didn't this year, and I'm still kicking myself for not doing so.

This is 5-1-1, so I assume that you're top-watering your plants and then allowing them to dry out? Are they drying so much that roots are dying?

Josh

DMForcier, it is looking like you are battling the same problem as me. I wish I had and an answer for you, as that would mean I have solved my problem. I am working on the light issue and getting out from under my 6500K floros and into some real sunlight to see if that doesn't kick start them. I have already repotted with new and different soil. I have lost 25-30% of my plants already and the ones that are still hanging in there basically quit growing a few weeks ago.
Bruce

Ok, I just have to ask, how is it that you guys are judging that you are not overwatering? Because I was looking back over Bruce's pictures and one thing that stood out this time was that he potted them into larger pots much sooner than I would have. And now DM says he moved plants into larger pots even though they showed little to no root at the pot boundary, and I would not have moved them up in that case. It is hard to judge how much water is appropriate for a small plant in an over large pot and the soil can stay moist too long at the root area while being dry elsewhere. Also, I remember reading on here once that peppers are happier a little root bound.

That's just number one suspect. Other thoughts are fertilizer burn to the roots (but your foliage looks fine while the roots are going first?) and physical damage to the roots (how that would happen, I am not sure, do you pick the pots up a lot?) I doubt you have cut worms and wire worms in your pots...

I like me a good mystery, but I'm sorry you are having this frustration!

I just have to ask: What is the intended benefit of the 5-1-1? Seems like using it causes more problems than it solves. If I get this right, the 5-1-1 is basically nutrition-less, which means you have to keep adding fertilizer to allow the plants something to live off. My plants are all in a commercial compost mix (mostly peat), some of them have perlite mixed in. I have barely used any fertilizer, just a couple of waterings with this. The mix of course has some nutrition mixed in from the start, but going this route seems to avoid a lot of work during the initial weeks.

It would be interesting to see what happened if you tried potting a couple of plants in "regular" potting soil of some sort and compare the results to the rest.

I'm curious about using only H2O2. I understand using it diluted or using it when there is fungal pressure, but all the time? I am using 5-1-1 with osmocote plus CRF in the mix and my peppers are about 3 inches tall at four weeks. I just moved them from 2-inch pots to pots that are 4-inch square by 6 inches tall, and they all had roots coming out of the bottom and beginning to circle around the sides. Admitted I am not growing super hots, but I am growing Thai peppers, jalapenos, and seven other kinds. The seedlings I expect mysterious problems with are tomatoes. Pepper seedlings are generally trouble free for me in 5-1-1.

sunnibel, the ONLY reason that I repotted to bigger pots is that I thought there was a problem with the old soil or something in the soil. I figured while I was repotting, I might as well go a little bigger...definitely didn't repot because I thought they were out growing their original pots.
Bruce

Bruce, wasn't questioning why you potted them up, just saying that once a small plant is in a large pot it gets even harder to tell when and how much water it needs. I know you guys have good reasons for everything you do. :)

I Am Having Similar Issues. I Sowed Seed From Ottawapepper On Feb 7 And Most Of Those Seedlings Are About 2" Tall And At The Rate They Are Growing, Will Not Set Pods Until Next Year. Started In Mg Seed Starting Mix And Moved To A 5-1-1 About Two Weeks Ago.

Johansen,
the 5-1-1 offers superior aeration and drainage, which is generally what allows for excellent root-growth. Yes, it is essentially nutrient-free, other than the addition of Dolomitic Lime (providing Calcium and Magnesium). The 5-1-1 is more work, indeed, and recommended to those who don't mind the extra work up front. In my garden, it's a little more work up front, but less work at the end of the season (as far as watering and fertilizing is concerned). Another advantage is that pests aren't as much a problem (although I do deal with aphids if they find a way in).

Dennis, were you top-watering or bottom-watering?

Josh

Some good thoughtful replies here. Much to address.

Josh, I top-water. While I've gotten really good at reading a peat-based pot for need-of-water, I don't do as well with 5:1:1. I don't really think this is a watering issue, though. 1) The roots go pretty deep; with a wet soil they would tend to cluster at the top; 2) I treat all the plants the same (well, all within a given pot size), and there's quite a spread in results. 3) Based on observation when dumping pots, the soil tends to the dry side. But I rarely see wilting as one would with really dry pots.

Mix: Includes Osmocote. And I am recycling MGMC so there may be some nutes left in it. Plus I have been watering with a dilute MG solution (1/4 tsp per gallon) for some time now.

Bruce, they've been taking fulls days in the sun. Some love it; others just aren't responding. My mortality rate is somewhat lower then yours, fortunately for me. If the sickly little buggers do finally bugger off, then maybe 10% of those that have left the starter cells.

sunni, there was a worm in one that I didn't recognize. 3/4", thin and pasty, reddened at both ends.

I up-pot based on foliage because I can't see the roots. ;) When a plant doesn't fit under the lights I move to a bigger pot so I don't have to reduce the lumens on its siblings by raising the fixture.

cjohansen, pretty well answered above. You are one of the ones that prompted this thread, BTW. Your foliage is amazing.

This is my first year growing in 5:1:1 so maybe I'm treating it too much like a peat-based mix.

One observation, though: I do use peat-based soil (MGMC) to start everyone off, and I was seeing these differences in the starter tray. For instance, I lost about 75% of my 7 Pots and Douglahs in The Great Disaster simply because 75% were still too small to leave the nursery. Hmmm.. May be in that light the over mortality rate would have been somewhat higher.

Anyway, to get back into my comfort zone I'm moving puny plants back into the starter flat with MGMC and in the case of the pictured tiny fellow above that, plus a shot of fertilizer, seems to be making it happier.

OhioFem I only use 3% H2O2 when I suspect that a problem may be developing, and then only in small quantities. I have started injecting it directly into the roots with a long needle. So far I can't tell any difference.

The big test for 5:1:1 will be later this year when it gets really hot. In MGMC I was watering almost daily through some weeks. If this stuff doesn't retain water well enough I could be watering twice a day.

I'll try to get a picture of size differences.

Yes, one would expect roots at the top if there were anoxic conditions below. The plot thickens....

Josh

Just for your comparison. All my (non-super hots) peppers started at the same time eight weeks ago: 12 Cayennes leggy but none stunted. 24 Cherry Bombs: 2 stunted and should be removed. 6 Scotch Bonnets all fine. All in 3" pots. Rotating fan on low 2 hours per day. Mostly western window lighting. Overall: very healthy

Soil: 2 parts peat, 1 part potting soil., 1/2 part perlite , pinch of lime, pinch of 4-12-12 veggie fertilizer.

Also, applying a weak solution of Epsom salts water every 2 weeks. 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water.

This post was edited by uncle_t on Tue, Apr 2, 13 at 19:24

These two BJs germinated on the same day and were treated identically - until the bigger one was up-potted.

Josh, I've excavated a couple more plants and what roots there are are up high. I'm moving them and other runts into MGMC now. We'll see happens.

I've exhumed about a dozen plants now of various sizes - some big some small. It turns out that the plant in the first picture has the deepest roots of all of them!

Thus there seems to be two possible causes: 1) there is something about this mix that they really don't like; 2) the pots are too wet - something I have a lot of difficulty believing.

On the chance of 1) I've moved some plants back into MGMC, and on the chance 2) I'll be using skewers in at least a sample of the pots.

Is a puzzlement nonetheless.

Dennis

P.S. Any comment on the purple patches on the leaves of the smaller bhut above? Seems common on the runts yet I haven't seen anything about it being a sign of bad things.

P.P.S. If the roots of the first runt are relatively good, why is it a runt !?!

If the roots in the first picture are the ones that are the best, you are seriously lacking in rootage. I would expect to see 3, 4 times that much root on a healthy plant. See what the skewers tell you. One way or another it will help clarify things. :)

Based on data from the skewers and wiltage, this mix isn't behaving as I would have expected. It is actually retaining moisture better than the MGMC pots! With a moisture probe I can read that it dries from the top down, and the bottom may have quite enough moisture while the top half is dry as a bone.

Accordingly I have refrained from watering plants that are hinting that they want H2O, and they haven't tried to die on me but seem to recant and straighten up. I read this as driving roots down to get what it already there.

Either that or there is a heck of a morning dew this week.

Recent losses: One 10 week old Twilight runt, one Black Pearl seedling still in the starter cell.

Update: Overall I've $#1+-canned only 2 of the puny survivors. 2-3 more died back in the nursery. Most eventually started to grow. One plant - I believe it was the scorpion in the very first picture above - leaped out of the pot in June and is now one of my three largest plants in terms of leaf mass. A poblano I gave up on and moved into the flower bed a month ago has more than quintupled in size and set pods.

In no case have I been able to identify any one factor that caused puny runtiness.

I do have to add something, though. As I have up-potted all these plants I gave up trying to generate enough 5:1:1 to keep up. A month ago I invested in about 4 more big bags of MGMC. The plants that were moved into MGMC are MUCH happier than they were in just the 5:1:1. To some extent that would be due to more footroom, but i am sure that the dirt has a lot to do with it too. In fact, with plants that are in 5:1:1 and aren't looking great and don't need to be in larger pots, I am dumping some of the 5:1:1 and replacing with MGMC and they do respond.

Now, this isn't necessarily a condemnation of 5:1:1. With all the rain we've had this summer it's been difficult to fertilize because the rain comes along and washes the ferts right out of the pots. So a direct comparison isn't really fair - yet. However, at this point I'm leaning back toward MGMC as the preferred general solution.

That and not giving up on runts.

Dennis