PJ:

Finally made it back from god-forsaken Oklahoma(no offense Oklahomans). Congratulations on the Heat winning it all. I didn't see THAT conclusion AT ALL! LeBron finally DIDN'T choke!

Habjalokia:

I'm no chemistry expert, but from my research, wood ashes are hish in potash(potassium) and changes pH levels also. Maybe CHARCOAL would have these same characteristics? Just a guess on my part. /shrug.

Anyhow, Thanks to everybody for their input. If I DO finally try the famed 5-1-1, I'll share my experiences.

Heya Woo!
Welcome back! Yeah, I don't think anybody saw that coming! It was fun though, looking forward to next year!

This is actually the first time I've been back on GW in a few weeks too. I just started a new job and it is SUPER intense. I have no oportuntity to get on during the day like before, and with a 3 year old at home...I don't get much time here either..LOL. One down side is that I'll be traveling every other week, so I'm in the process of training my wife how NOT to KILL my babies while I'm away.....eeeekkkkkk!!!! It's a great opportunity though, so I'm not going to complain....too much anyways....LOL.

Anyways, I might be MIA on and off for a while - at least while I'm adjusting to the new schedule, but I'll do my best to check in.

By the way, I thought that I had posted a pic of my modified 5-1-1 on this thread...but I hadn't - so here it is.

PJ

A little more help on the 5-1-1 please.

I finally broke down. hat to get my ghost and thai in SOMETHING, and I didn't have space in the ground where the rest of my chiles are.

So, I got some bark, prelite, and peat(couldn't find turface).

Added 1 TB of lime per gallon of mix and used 2 TB of Osmocote per 5 gallon bucket(plant).

Now, on to the fertilizing. I've read a lot of you are using foliage pro. Couldn't find that so I picked up some Vigoro AP with a 3-1-2 ratio of NPK and small amounts of micronutrients. Will this suffice?

Am I to understand that I shouldn't use natural fertilizers? No compost tea, no compost, no ORGANIC fertilizers?

Feedback please.

Thanks

Kevin

Hey Kevin,
That vigaro should be fine, I used the MG version of that formula before switching to FP without any problems. The only real downfall of both the Vigaro and the MG 3-1-2's is the obvious lack of Ca and Mg.

As for organics, most people that use the 5-1-1 opt against organics - but it's up to you. The fact is that containers aren't the best environment for microorganisms, which are, of course, required to convert organic ferts into a form usable by the plants. Unlike mother earth, container mediums are subject to extreme variations from day to day. This is going to create boom or bust development of your microherd...meaning boom or bust nutrient delivery. The synthetics are going to give you a well balanced and consistent delivery of nutrients - especially if you use a low dose with high frequency, while organics will be sporadic and hard to dial in. Not to mention that the 5-1-1 isn't exactly Club Med for microorganisms, nor is it meant to be.

For my buck, the organics stay in the garden.

PS - If you're going to go with peat, you can also consider using the bark fines as a replacement. You bought them right? May as well use em up! Not that peat breaks the bank or anything, but it's one less ingredient to buy....and I hate peat...lol...can ya tell?? Check out what I mean in the link.

PJ

Here is a link that might be useful: Another option for you

PJ nailed it re: organics in the 5-1-1.
If the container is large enough, organics can work.....however, it will shorten the
life of the 5-1-1 (increase the decomposition process). It'll still last a good season,
but you won't get much more than that.

Josh

Josh and PJ:

So, Let's say I want to use half oak barrels. Would I be able to possibly use peat, compost, coarse perlite and the wood chips I mentioned at the beginning of this thread and still be able to lower the PWT you guys stress so much?

I really do want to go as organic as possible.

I've got the ghost and thai in a 5-1-1 and I'll give it a shot this year. I just hope the difference is worth it. I have had good success with three out of the four ingredients(peat, compost, and chips).

Even Miracle-Gro Organic Choice fert won't do with the 5-1-1??

Kevin

Here is a link that might be useful: wood chips link

You can do whatever you want, however, if you stray too far from the original idea of the 5-1-1 it ceases to be a 5-1-1. The ~idea~ of the 5-1-1 is to provide maximum structure, aeration, and drainage - with very little, if any, regard for organics. By adding in a bunch of peat and compost you take away from those properties that the 5-1-1 strives to create. If your hung up on staying organic - which is perfectly fine - simply put, the 5-1-1 may not be for you. Maybe you'd be more comfortable with something like a 3-2-1 with the 3 parts being comprised of potting mix/peat/compost/etc, the 2 parts being bark, and the 1 part being perlite. This would be a much better medium to use organic ferts in, as long as the container is big enough. Just be warned, it's gonna hold water and its gonna compress. You'll want to be extra diligent with your watering habits - not only for the plants, but for the micro-organisms as well.

Now, and most importantly, I would personally stay away from those wood chips....do yourself a favor and stick with bark. The chips are gonna decompose quickly and tie up nutrients, specifically nitrogen, as they do so.

As for the MG OC fert in the 5-1-1, I don't have anything else to add besides what I said a few posts ago...it's really your choice at this point.

Hope that helps!

PJ

Thanks PJ and everybody else. You've all been a great help and opened my eyes a bit regarding containers.

Kevin

Hi all,

I am considering a 5-1-1 or a gritty mix (or some variation) for large containers.
I would like to move the planters from time to time and am curious about the weight of the mixes.
Can anybody post weights of 1 gallon of different mixes, please?

For example:

1) 5-1-1
1 gallon ..... lbs (kg)
Mix:
5 parts Orchid Bark (pine bark fines), 1-2 parts Perlite, and 1 part Peat Moss

2) gritty mix
1 gallon .... lbs (kg)
1 part uncomposted screened pine or fir bark (1/8-1/4"), 
1 part screened Turface, 
1 part crushed Gran-I-Grit (grower size), 
1 Tbsp gypsum per gallon of soil

If you have your other favorite mix, please post it too!

Thanks!

Goldfinch,
this particular Thread is about the 5-1-1, so I think it best if "other favorite mix"
is not posted here (lest there be confusion).

The 5-1-1 is a bit lighter in weight than an equal volume of bagged mix, like Miracle Grow.

The Gritty Mix is significantly heavier, owing primarily to its inclusion of grit (turface/granite).

Josh

Josh,

Thanks for pointing out, I will create a new thread.

I know that some mixes are heavier than the others, I was curious about the actual pounds/kg per gallon/liters.

I wish I could help with the weights, but I've never weighed my containers.....
nor do I have any containers with bagged mixes with which to compare.

I saw your post at the Container Forum, and I think you'll get some relative weights (fractions),
if not actual numbers.

Josh

Since this pertains to the 5-1-1 (and Gritty Mix, for those interested), I thought I'd post
it here, as well. Al, who goes by Tapla on these Fora, put these mixes together and has offered
the recipes as a starting point for a customized container medium.

"Well-made 5:1:1 mix weighs about the same as a peat-based mix when dry
and about 2/3 the weight of most peat-based mixes at container capacity (fully saturated).

A well-made gritty mix weighs about 2-3X as much as a peat-based soil when dry,
and about 1.5X as much at container capacity.

Al"

It looks like it's very easy to screw up a 5-1-1 mix. I am sure I have. So here's a question:

Is a poorly constructed 5-1-1 still better than a store-bought potting mix?

Serge: It's only my 2nd year using the 5-1-1, but I would say that a 5-1-1 with a bunch of sapwood would be far worse than taking a bag of potting mix and adding some extra perlite for porosity.

At least with potting mix, you don't have a bunch of material sucking the nutrients out of the mix as sapwood does.

I'll let the experts chime in though.

Kevin

IMO, Kevin is right on. The bark is the key to the mix and getting to fine of bark, too course or one with too much sapwood will give you a growing medium that will likely not produce very good results regardless of the rest of the components used. As long as you have a good bark component, you simply need to add the other ingredients in close to a 5-1-1 ratio. The soil part of the mix can be any reasonable soil, peat or potting mix. The perlite should be mostly coarse with little dust. A bit of garden lime and some slow release fertilizer like Osmocote is about all you need.
Good luck

So I read through this and have a question, how many seasons can you get out of the mix?

TIA
NECM

Several. This is my 3rd year using it and though I've refreshed it and just made more each season, It doesn't look like It's degrading very much to me.

Kevin

Kevin's right....you can go 2 - 3 years with this mix, especially with some refreshing. I've certainly pressed mine for use with Citrus and other bonsai trees. For peppers, I try to make fresh mix every year. If you use uncomposted bark, you'll certainly get more longevity.

Josh

Would it help if you fairly dry them at the end of season, keep it air dry so it wont compost ?
I have a pretty good source here. It costs me around $3.50 per cubic foot, including perlite, lime and CRF. .

Does anyone have a good suggestion for a pine alternative? I'm tired of rubbing my eyes and itching when I garden. :(

You're allergic to the bark ??

I'm having at least some sensitivity to it- itchy watering eyes, runny nose, itchy skin even though I wear garden gloves. It's certainly nothing life threatening but an alternative would be nice. I'd really like to add more containers of peppers and not have to use so much space in my raised beds since they overwinter here easily. I could really use the space in the beds for things I can't grow in pots.

As I understand it you can use any bark that contains lignin (sp?) a substance that inhibits decomposition. As far as I know this includes all fir barks. I've never heard of using hardwood bark in a soil-less mix.

Seems to me that this question could be better answered in the Container forum.

Dennis

Conifer bark - fir, pine, hemlock. Not sure about redwood. Ask Josh or Al.

Kevin

Yep, fir, pine, hemlock...and *possibly* spruce if the bark looks right. Redwood and Cedar are not advised, as they tend to be too fibrous (and may contain chemicals that are not conducive to root-growth).

Josh

Dennis, I just figured I'd throw it out there since I'm specifically growing peppers in pots. I had found a discussion on the container forum where someone was looking for alternatives because they couldn't find the right size bark and there were a lot of responses with helping the person find the right bark but no mentions of suitable alternatives.

Thanks Kevin and Josh. I've never seen hemlock anything anywhere. I'll have to ask at my local nursery this weekend. Otherwise I might just have to wing it and shoot for the right texture if not the right materials.

IMO the size of the bark pieces is over-emphasized. You don't want them too small, granted. But "too big" should be reserved for chunks over 2". The bark is essentially a filler that also holds some moisture. If you can find a chunky alternative, go with it.

Dennis

Or you can run it over with your car several times...

Size is majorly prohibitive. The larger the bark, the faster the drainage....at first. As the mix settles, the fine material migrates to the bottom of the pot, leaving the top of the pot dry and the bottom too wet. In addition, overly large bark reduces the room for roots to grow. 1/2 inch bark is the upper limit, and for very good reason.

Josh

Now that we're back to talking 5-1-1 again. I have a couple questions Josh...

First, have you found a different source other than GreenAll for your fines? Don't get me wrong... the stuff is a perfect size. But with that perfect size comes very small pieces of sapwood that takes forever to pick out and even after picking, I know there's still quite a bit left in it.

I'm almost thinking that it would be easier to buy large nugget, pick the LARGER sapwood pieces, and then do what Dennis suggests... stick in a pillowcase and drive over. Then screen.

Also, have you found an acceptable bark(even if large nugget) at any of the big box stores?

Kevin

Hey, Kevin, I've stuck with Greenall Micro Bark, only venturing off the reservation a few times. Every once in a while, Home Depot has Earthgro in the right size, but usually it's way too large. Beware, however....the Earthgro has even more sapwood. The other bark I've used is really the same as the Greenall, just in a different package...E.B. Stone's fine-grade "Orchid Bark" - which is more expensive for the purple packaging ;-)

As long as the sapwood is less than 10% of the overall product, I think the Osmocote is more than enough to offset any Nitrogen immobilization.

Josh

"Or you can run it over with your car several times...

Hmmmm... I drive a 1960 Buick. I'm afraid I would probably end up with a pillowcase full of dust. :D

1960 Buick Gunboat! Awright!

2" is too large, I suppose, but I've been using pieces up to 1" with no noticeable problem. 'Course, I don't use 5:1:1 with very young plants.

Dennis

I may have found something that will work for me- at least as a good starting point and so far it doesn't make me itchy or sniffly!

It's Sta-Green tree and shrub mix from Lowe's. At just under 6 bucks for a 2 cuft bag it's seems like a pretty good deal.

Compost (a write up in Wired Magazine about this mix said: "Sta-Green’s formulation varies by region, but typically a significant percentage of it is decaying plant matter. A common ingredient is rice hulls, which retain water. In Georgia, half of the mix is pine bark, which can help ward off root rot. In California it contains “forest products” "mostly mill leftovers."

Potassium Nitrate
Ammonium Phosphate
Urea
Reed-Sedge Peat
Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss
Ground Dolomitic Limestone
Potassium Sulfate

Any thoughts? Also, we've just been slapped with even more water restrictions (effective immediately,) so I need to consider water retention- screen less of the small particles out of increase something else?

I wouldn't use that shredded, dusty bark mix, personally. Lots of sapwood in that handful alone.

Josh

Oh, well. I'm probably going to just stop bothering about 5-1-1 then.

Veda,
can you find Greenall Micro Bark?

Josh

Josh, I used several store locators and it looks like the closest place is 35 miles away. In a car that gets 7 miles to a gallon and gas around $4 a gallon that's a $50 bag of bark. :) For that $50 I can get a yard of a good raised bed mix (29.99) and a yard of good bio-solid free compost (19.99) from my local nursery and fill 2 more 4x8 raised beds (I get the 2x10s to build them for free,) which is looking like a better solution for me than trying to do pots at this point but I do appreciate the suggestion.

Of course! Yes, beds would make more sense, especially in your zone. More moisture efficient.

Josh

Veda: those store locators aren't the best for finding things sometimes. But...anyhow, do you have an Armstrong's Garden nearby? They have the microbark for 10/2cf.

No, Kevin, we don't have them here- we have big box stores and small independents. The closest is either Anaheim or Temecula- about 30-35 miles either way. No worries, I'll just keep doing what I have been- I'm up to my eyeballs in peppers so it's not any kind of emergency. I'll revisit the possibility of pots with 5-1-1 at a later time if the right materials become available.

5 - 1 - 1 questions/answers from Container Gardening Forum.

@ daveintexas.... Actually I was the first to be Disneyed for Bumping threads.

Oh, guess what?

Here is a link that might be useful: Does my 5:1:1 mix look right?

Figured I'd bump this thread.

Oh my! Days of yore!

This was a nice thread, and I appreciated the discussion of using Turface in the 511 mix instead of Peat

6+ years later things have changed. coco coir is widely available and is better than any type of growing media out there, especially peat based. it is also inexpensive, around the same price as peat. i can buy a coco brick for around $12 which is enough to fill an entire wheel barrel.

coco allows for superior aeration allowing roots to breath and allow oxygen to get to the roots. there is also coco coir that is a bit more coarse (if you want even more aeration). no need for perlite, pine park, etc..

i typically mix 3 parts coco with 1 part worm castings for a superior potting/seed starting mix.

@stevie you can find as many people who hate coir as who like it. One champion bonzai competitor says some really nasty things about it here. (Of course that same person also seems to hate bark, but that's a separate story.)

The reason Turface is an interesting substitute for either peat or coir is that Turface does not break down. With peat and coir the ingredients disintegrate into small particles that completely undo the reasons for the 511 mix being used in the first place.

coco does not disintegrate, it resist decomposition and last several years..

i have made a quick video showing how airy it is, and it's certainly not "dust" like it's mentioned in that 2 line sentence about the person in that link you posted say it is, and as i've said, coco can be purchased in coarser grade too. i'd imagine mixing the finer grade coco with the coarser coco would make one hell of a mix that will put the 5-1-1 mix to shame and keep so much money in your pocket.. but i think just the normal texture coco is fine, there are plenty of people who use it on thehotpepper forum by itself with amazing results.

it does not compact at all despite how hard it is squeezed. very fibrous which is why it does not really need any additives such as perlite, bark, etc..which saves huge amounts of money.

the amazing thing about is it has tremendous water holding capacity while still staying light and airy and not suffocating plant roots.

there are so many other reasons why it's superior to just about every type of planting media out there. research and very much doubt you'll find many valid negative things about it.

@stevie Google "Does coco coir disintegrate". You will find site after site after site after site that points out that coco coir is made of cellulose, rapidly disintegrates, collapses, and steals the air pockets that it initially creates.

The entire reason to use the 511 formula is to create larger particles in the soil mix. If you want to be a purist about that idea, coir and peat both have issues.