5-1-1 is conifer bark-perlite-peat

The "gritty mix" contains conifer bark-turface-crushed granite (1:1:1).

Both are very nutrient poor. Yes, it is almost a hydroponic approach.

Oh, also, check the container gardening forum.

There is a substitute for turface...a specific NAPA floor dry. The container forum has the exact part number.

Here is a link that might be useful: container gardening

Yup, was just about to say "Hit an auto-parts store for floor dry/oil absorber". Its the exact same stuff, at a fraction of the price.

Its pretty neat the first time you use it too. When you pour the water in it fizzes like a soda. All the tiny air pockets in the clay (that hold the water so well) take a split second longer to fill up, so it releases tiny bubbles just like a shaken soda bottle.

You mean Kitty Litter? I'm already up to my knees in the stuff - because I'm up to my knees in kitties. Well, only the three left (we have coyotes). But sometimes it feels like knee level.

I tried planting in-ground my first year. Basil, cowhorns, sage, thyme, oregano. The last three are still at it three years later, but the basil and cowhorns didn't do well at all. The mix was 1:1 MG Garden Soil and native topsoil/clay. Can't point the finger at the clay, but I'd gravitate toward something else given the choice.

Perlite is inert, I gather. So it could be replaced with just about anything inert? (There's already some in the MGMC, but not a lot.) Or just left out entirely?

I also have some cow manure compost. I am thinking something along these lines:

6 parts bark fines
2-3 parts MGMC
1 part manure compost
1 part kitty litter

??

I suspect that the feeding of 5:1:1 or the equivalent has already been addressed. Thread pointer?

TIA
Dennis

Yeah, if you can find plain, unscented, untreated kitty litter its the same stuff too. Hard to find it these days though. At least for a reasonable price (seems to be swinging back around towards hipsters so they price goes up). 'round these parts it is, anyway.

It is a soiless media so yes it is considered hydroponics. I just made a huge batch of the 5-1-1 and I am letting it ph. I even took just pine fines and filled a 4 inch pot and dunped water on it and it drained right through! When you add the perlite it makes the mix even higher porosity! Pine fines sure are the best replacment for peat!

I know this is drifting off topic, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

What is the point in a mix that has little nutrient value and holds no water? If this *were* a hydroponic setup, where there was a constant feed of nutrient-rich liquid, it would make sense. But I have no intention of daily feeding.

Why should I expect this to be successful?

It has high air porosity so plants will yield higher.

You can add a CRF to it so you dont have to fertilze every time.

It is best of both worlds. The one part peat in the 5-1-1 to me seems to hold water and nutrients just perfect and will not fill in the macropores. The perlite adds more pores, and too holds water and fertilizer. The pine fines hold water and nutrients as well and all of those I mentioned hold lime that is added when making it. The lime is important here.

If you were to try groing in pure coco chips they are already at a ph of 6 so there is no lime to be added, there for there is no long term ph buffer so the water needs to be ph balanced of the water/nutrients.

The 5-1-1 is a perfection as far as I see it. It has a long lasting structure, and a high porosity, yet holds water/nutrients.

Finally, soil mixes with added compost can have a very strong buffer making it easy to grow in. You will not have the same high yield results, but will have a high buffer and will not have to water as much.

I went to the garden center and picked up a 2 cu ft bag of pine bark, after sifting it made 5 gal of pine fine in the right size range. I use the rest of the mix as decrotive mulch and in other large cotainer mixes. So really I pay 2 bucks for 5 gal of pine fines that will last years. I only I have to add a little perlite to get the same porosity as a mix of 70% perlite and 30% peat! That is saving right there and a key point!

Starting to make more sense to me. (Asked similar question on the Containers forum. Maybe the sum of the two answers will bring it all into focus. )

I haven't been considering the pH, but should. I might make one mix with lime and another with compost and compare.

> "5 gal of pine fines that will last years"

?? The fines are the principle ingrediment. 5 gal makes about 6 gal of "mix". That might last me for repotting two plants. How are you making it last for years? Are you re-using?

But point taken. It really is a low (i.e. zero) cost element for me.

Yea I reuse it. I noticed it can last a long time of being reused. That is why I hear many say it lasts 3 years plus.

I think there is some advantages to soil. Soilless takes a some attention to fertilizer, but you can be growing very healthy roots!

Read the first post in this thread (the 15th iteration because it keeps hitting the limit).

It explains a lot of the background on the 5-1-1 and gritty mixes. There are also a couple of links within the first post to other major threads of interest.

If you have time to read through some of the 15 parts, it is really pretty interesting and some potential pitfalls are discussed, etc..

Here is a link that might be useful: RE: Container Soils - Water Movement & Retention XV

Hi, I'm from Australia and would like to know if zeolite can be used as an alternative to Turface. The only source of turface I can find is way too far and way too expensive to use.
Any thoughts please?

Phattboy: I've never heard of it. What I see most often suggested is oil absorbent(like what auto mechanics use on oil spills), or kiltty litter. But not just ANY kitty litter -- you want it to be unperfumed for one, but you want calcined clay. One way to test it is(I have read) is to moisten some, put it in the freezer, and if it gets mushy, you DON'T want it.

I had a problem finding it at first also. Until I tried commercial landscape supply places like John Deere landscapes or Ewings. Not sure if they're global or not though.

Maybe Josh(Greenman28) can help. He's the resident 5-1-1 expert. You may also try the container forum.

Good luck

Kevin

This is an old thread by Dennis. But there are few alternatives to Turface:
--Various floor dries sold by the auto part store. Got to make sure that it won't fall apart when soaked in water for a long time.

-- some cat litter stuff may also work . Again, provided it will not fall apart when soaked. Another issue with the cat stuff maybe the perfume added to it.
-- Pumice ( crushed lava) is yet another alternative.

Native GA clay soil/rocks is not an option. The clay in turface and DE in floor dry is fired,( like brick). So it won't fall apart and should have limited absorption property.

Yeah, I posted this when I wasn't sure what went into 5:1:1. Turface isn't used in 5:1:1 - it is used in "gritty mix". See the Container forum for more about all this.

Dennis