I wonder the same thing. I'm also an Engineer but not thinking about the numbers as much as the structure of the pepper itself and how much "capsaicin" a pepper can hold. I think we might be near the max now. But if we were to tweak the Trinidad Moruga Sc. with something that would help it "hold" more capsaicin in the pod membrain, seeds, etc. that might make it go up even more. It has a lot of empty space inside the walls of it, for more heat imo. If that makes sense. What about additives to the soil that will make peppers produce more capsaicin. But I bet that is what has been going on already the last several years.

But this is just based of of pics and vids that I have seen, I'm not a botanist. lol...

This post was edited by kclost on Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 16:54

Capsaicinoids are the substances commonly referred to as capsaicin as a whole group. ...and for the most part that's just fine (except for the chemist purists) because the sub-groups are all capsaicin based anyway except for the fatty acids (such as N-Vanillyl groups) which are also considered part of the capsaicinoids.

Like most things involving peppers...it's biopathway to production is mostly unknown, though some enzyme promoters have been found. We know peppers make it...we don't fully understand why or how. We know that some stresses can increase production in some peppers...we don't know many of the why/how it turns on the process in the plant. Water stress is somewhat understood on enzyme reactions in pepper capsaicin production, though it's not down to a "formula" (aka, withhold water at this stage of development, in this amount, for this many days, to get this percentage of increase).

There is research (past/present) of different growing medium effects on heat, but most of these mediums are enzyme impregnated gel mediums...which makes it a bit more "lab" than "real world" because of cost and practicality. These studies have been able to increase a plant's capsaicin production because of the introduced enzymes, though...some significantly.

Myself, I think any natural advances in increased hot capsaicins in peppers will need to come via GMO to somehow ramp up natural production of the suspected/known promoting enzymes in the plant. That said, it's highly unlikely given total synthesis or in vitro ("test tube") production of cells would likely be a cheaper method to the commercial market that cares about such a thing (weapons, medicine, etc).

That said, like most plant evolution...all it takes is a natural or hybridized "genetic freak" to push levels up.

As far as what point you can push it up to before a pepper becomes endangered or non-viable-fruiting because of excess capsaicin production...I have no idea, or if there even is a level where it becomes a danger to the fruit. There may come a day where someone makes/finds a pepper so full of these substances you can cut a pepper open and see visible crystal structures of the capsaicins within the fruit if it's possible without ruining the fruit.

this gives me an interesting thought.

when you cut open a superhot (and even some habaneros) you see a layer of oil coating the inside surfaces. when you cut open a tabasco, you find that it is "juicy", meaning it has liquid inside of it. that liquid contains some capsaicin. I can't help wondering if the way forward to a new ultra-hot (the next step above a superhot) would involve a cross with a tabasco, or another 'juicy' pepper (I'm not sure if other peppers are juicy too). now, assuming I am missing the mark and the juice is an entirely separate concept from the oils in a superhot: the way forward is to selectively breed peppers with the goal of producing a thicker layer of that oil. successive generations of this could lead to a pepper that is completely full of that super hot oil, and we could set crazy new records.

I might have to try to cross a brain with a tabasco now, see where that takes me.

I read that different pepper species produce different capsacinoids. Given that the type produced by rocoto peppers is different from chinense, it is probable that some type of cross breeding could result in a pepper that produces both types.

The problem I see is that there will come a point where production of one capsacinoid cannibalizes production of another. In other words, there is only so much pepper oil a plant can produce.

Are we near that limit? I've seen some evidence that we can get at least twice as hot with current genetices. That would take a 2 million scoville pepper up to 4 million. I can't even eat cayenne much less super hots. I don't think anyone could safely eat a 4 million scoville pepper.

Gotta also consider the test.
Some look for X amounts of whatever specific thing.

I think the hottest of the hots would have to contain every version of Cap. oil.
Might take Monsanto to gene cross Manzanos to get the several versions they have in them with stuff any individual pepper has in it.

For me,7 pots are my choice.
I don't see all the flavors in the supers people post about in general.
Actually I use most supers as additions to a LOT of other peppers.
A LOT of other peppers taste WAY better but don't have the heat I like.
Lots of supers suck in taste compared to lesser milder stuff.
BUT the combo of different stuff is better than anything around by itself.
I hardly ever met a pepper I couldn't make something great out of.
Never will.
I tune things to my taste and flavor profile.
NO ONE PEPPER ALONE COULD EVER DO THE SAME THING.

I'd bet anyone would love their scourcher better if a touch of this or that was added to it.
But heat alone isn't what I like.
Gotta be a total blitz of the sences,Peppers,heat etc. to make the whole thing GREAT.

Edited...vide infra.

This post was edited by maple_grove on Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 17:12

smoke, I am generally a fan of reading your posts, you clearly have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to growing peppers. infinitely more than myself. but in this case I'm not exactly sure how your post pertains to this discussion. I do agree about mixing pepper flavors though. when I make bhut-based hot sauce, the complaint I used to get was that the heat doesn't hit you until after you swallow. so now I add tabasco peppers to the mix at a ratio of 1:1, because the tabasco's heat hits you instantly (tip of your tongue burn). that way I round out the heat profile. and I personally like the flavor of the 2 superhots I have personal experience with (brain strains and bhuts) more than I like the flavor of most the milder ones I've tried. the only difference is with the superhots you can't taste it for long before all you experience is heat.

also, I was under the impression most varieties of pepper included multiple types of casaicinoids in different amounts (some of which don't actually produce a 'heat' sensation, but are more related to flavors), and the ratios were what determined the heat profile.

I'm not that interested in this question for the sake of my consumption. it's not that a 2mil SHU pepper isn't hot enough for me, not at all. heck, I can't and won't even try to eat a whole bhut pod (I just make wicked hot sauce). I'm just interested in the theoretical possibilities.

OK, I'm going to edit my previous post in order to reframe the question from an engineering perspective.

The number of Scoville heat units (SHU) indicates the amount of capsaicin present per unit of dry mass. Since Scoville ratings are defined per unit of dry mass, comparison of ratings of between products having different water content can be misleading, and it's only the dry weight of the pod that would be 8-fold less pungent than pure cap. (If you were to dry it out without volatilizing a lot of the capsaicinoids, something my dehydrator cannot do).

Interestingly, when you look this up on Wikipedia, it presents Scofield ratings for chemicals including capsaicoids, and there are two molecules rate higher than capsaicin: tinyatoxin at 5.2 billion and resiniferatoxin at 16 billion SHU. That's 1000 times hotter than pure capsaicin, imagine that!

Resiniferatoxin is structurally unrelated to capsaicin. Here's what wikipedia has to say about the former:

"Resiniferatoxin (RTX) is a naturally occurring chemical found in resin spurge (Euphorbia resinifera), a cactus-like plant commonly found in Morocco, and in Euphorbia poissonii found in northern Nigeria.[1] It is an ultrapotent analog of capsaicin, the active ingredient in chili pepper.[2]

It activates the vanilloid receptor in a subpopulation of primary afferent sensory neurons involved in nociception (the transmission of physiological pain).[3][4] RTX causes an ion channel in the plasma membrane of sensory neurons ��" the transient receptor potential vanilloid 1 ��" to become permeable to cations, most particularly the calcium cation; this evokes a powerful irritant effect followed by desensitization and analgesia."

The truly hardcore chile-heads may may ultimately gravitate to Morocco or Nigeria to nibble on the spurges. ;o)

This post was edited by maple_grove on Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 17:37

Resiniferatoxin is a bit tricky because it will cause human tissue to become visibly irritated and swell even in small doses (micrograms of exposure)...especially those that are sensitive to it. It can cause nerve damage in high doses leading to permanent loss of sensation (touch, pressure, hot/cold, etc). Common pepper capsaicins, even in high/concentrated doses, tend to only irritate mucus membranes and thin skinned nerve heavy areas (such as lips). They very rarely lead to long term or permanent loss of sensation in nerves.

There's a reason it's not used to produce "pepper" spray. It kinda crosses the line between reasonable non-lethal and dangerous non-lethal.

This has been very interesting to follow. I love learning about the complicated science involved in what is otherwise a simple hobby. Love it.

As a lawyer by trade, however, my first thought is not theoretical but practical - the potential injury/danger caused by breeding and sharing/selling an "ultrahot" would likely cause restrictions in its distribution. You'd end up having to pick up a few grams of ultrahot seeds from some shady character in a Denny's parking lot.

I realize fully that this is not the discussion, though, but rather whether it is possible.

Keep up the educating, people.

I can't help thinking back to the thread about graft hybrids, and using that method to exchange DNA between varieties of pepper that otherwise couldn't breed on their own.

I still think though that the way forward would most likely be selectively breeding for thicker layers of capsaicin oil on the inside of the pods in already-super-hot varieties. this would take a while, but what's the rush?

mctiggs brings up an interesting aspect, the legal liabilities. in my opinion it would be no different than the risks involved in a moruga scorpion. your responsibility is to inform your customer the risks, and make sure they understand them. I mean really, this exists on the market already:
http://www.hotsauceworld.com/bl6amrepeexe.html