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songbirdmommy

Road to self sufficient living

songbirdmommy
16 years ago

Hi!

My Hubby and I are seriously considering buying a spread of land and becoming as self sufficient as possible.

I would love to hear from others who have done this.

Currently we are doing pretty good with the 1/2 acre we have, but, living within city limits, there is only so much we can do.

Has anyone here just pulled up stakes and done it?

How much land should we look at realistically.

We have found several properties that we feel would be good, they vary from 4 acres up to 238 acres.

What should we look at and consider?

Abviously water is one. All the properties have adequate water, ponds, wells, and lagoon systems in place. Some already have homes, others do not.

All ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Have a wonderful day!

SongBirdMommy

Comments (18)

  • atash
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >>Has anyone here just pulled up stakes and done it?

    Working on it. For us this is not easy, and requires quite a bit of planning and preparation.

    >>How much land should we look at realistically.

    Depends on the part of the world you are in. You could survive on around a fertile acre in the tropics. Is the land in Utah? Cold? Dry?

    >>What should we look at and consider?

    The land need to be arable without irrigation for one thing. For another, it needs to be relatively inexpensive, like farmland that has been pulled out of production due to low profits, and not too close to suburban areas (land speculation).

    Calculate your return on investment before you buy.

    >>>All the properties have adequate water, ponds, wells, and lagoon systems in place

    What's feeding them? If the answer is not "adequate precipitation", think twice.

    *** I am currently writing a book on why homesteads fail. I hope to have it ready by January. ***

    #1 problem is high taxation in the "western" countries that destroys real capital. Instead of accumulating capital, most "western" people borrow. They are debt-based economies. This is intentional.

    #2 problem is probably debt. It is very difficult to outrace accumulating interest from the proceeds of a homestead. That's why Nathan Rothschild referred to compound interest as the 8th wonder of the world.

    #3 problem is lack of division of labor. Real farmers and pioneers had lots of helpers (working children). And they were much more sociable and cooperative with each other than moderns are, almost predictably. Division of labor is necessary because one ties up too much capital owning redundant equipment and tools that sit idle most of the time. You can't plough, and weave, and bake, and dig wells, and everything else, all at the same time. In traditional agrarian societies people living in farming villages with enough division of labor to make the farms feasible.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Mutually Assured Survival

  • gardenlen
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lots to consider songbirdmommy,

    'atash' highlighted some good points, you may find as we did there is no pioneeer spirit in the rural areas anymore, not even the hospitality they used to be known for.

    you need to take this project away from the influence of the heart and back to the infuence of the head, develop a good criteria is ultimate, and learning how to pick good land is anotehr, we have some notes on our page about rural dreams, also a couple of essays one on "self-sufficiency" an the other about "sustainability"

    yes our pioneers grew their own helpers having up to 17 in some cases, and it wasn't an easy road with mortality but they did it, and in many case wher able to help each other as they could, doing our family ancestry at the moment it is a real eye opener.

    len

    Here is a link that might be useful: len's garden page

  • fruithack
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Half acre in city limits has a lot going for it, unless water is outrageously expensive. You will need cash no matter where you live, and cash is much more easily obtained in the city. I've lived the extremes and an apartment in the city is not much worse than 40 acres in nowhereville. I'm on 5 acres close in now, but could be almost as happy on 1/2 acre in city limits. Bootleg 4-6 chickens, and plant intensively. Lots more opportunities for scrounging in the city. The simplest things are a struggle in the sticks. Your life will become about a lot of things you now take for granted. Really, it comes down to the character of the community as much as anything.

  • seraphima
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Are you going to farm it? With or without tractors and farm equipment? Or with horses? How are you going to heat your house and with what fuel will you cook? (If wood, how many cords per year, and what acreage for a woodlot.)
    If you are going to farm/truck garden with no horse or tractor, then 1 1/2 acre per adult plus some pasturage for goats or a cow. If you have horses, figure out how much pasturage and grain growing area per horse.You can then farm more land. If you are hoping to use tractors/combines/farm equipment, then more land, and a job in town to pay for the gas.

    Please, could you restate your premise with a little more detail?
    Thanks, seraphima

  • crankyoldman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I couldn't agree with fruithack more about the city/country thing. The amount of time I wasted in the country worrying about things like the boiler, the fuel tank, or just getting out of the driveway was enormous. Another constant worry was whether the well would run dry, and the electricity was always being knocked out there. The people were anti-social, small-minded, and a number of them were violent or just plain nuts. They didn't know jack about supporting themselves or being good neighbors.

    If you want to farm, that is one thing. But if you want to be as self-sufficient as possible, you can do that in the city, and I think it's much more attainable here. There was a lady I ran into who was doing it on 1/4 acre in the city that she planted intensively and had a couple chickens. She grew all her own food except grains.

    Having a lot of land encourages sloppy thinking about growing things, IME. I found that I had more and better production growing way fewer plants much more intensively, some even in large pots, then I did growing them the old-fashioned way in rows when I was playing farmer. My neighbor here in the city is an avid veggie gardener, and it is great to be able to compare notes and share stuff. And let me tell you, it is even better to be able to sit here nice and toasty with a furnace powered by city gas while I plan what I will grow next year, instead of standing outside trying to unfreeze the fuel line and paying about four times as much per month for fuel than I am now.

    So in short, I would recommend thinking outside the box about how you grow on the land you have now.

  • alabamanicole
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tried it, sort of. As a single person with a full time and then some job (at home) I really didn't expect to make it, but I hoped to get close. Uh uh. There's just not enough hours in the day to do all the work and too many problems to deal with, and I didn't even acquire any livestock yet. Two people would be better... but what happens when someone is sick or injured? And some jobs just take two or more strong backs. The rural support system our grandparents had just isn't there any more. More of the "rural" people around here are gentleman farmers or commute an hour + to work so one person and the kids can stay at home. The one exception I know has a wife who bring home the extra salary they needs to make it as a small farmer -- and he has kids and a farm hand to help.

    There's a lot of reasons why modern homesteading doesn't work; like property taxes, utility bills and a much higher standard of living which brings about expensive things like medical bills.

    Now I am looking at selling and moving into town, into just such a lot as you are leaving. :) Unfortunately, most of the work I did will now be wasted since a potential buyer will be one of those commuters. Maybe a lucky family will get this place and one spouse and the kids can work the property while there other spouse works. Or they will have enough of a nest egg put by for early retirement.

    I think your current situation might be better than you know and you may get more mileage out of improving your current property. Or a larger lot nearby may be a good solution -- picking up stakes also means leaving behind your support structure in terms of friends and family, and that can be a very tough blow. But ultimately, what you need to do depends on your goals. If you really want to live in the country, then worrying about the well might be a small price to pay and it might be the right choice for you despite the relatively discouraging posts from people here. Just be aware it may be much, much harder than you think.

    On the other hand, the problem with intensive gardening is that it is ultimately draining on your soil resources and requires outside inputs or your soil will become depleted of things like minerals and your produce will become less nutritious. (Not unlike the problems with modern intensive industrial farming; the fresher produce from home is hands down better than those veggies.)

    Intensive gardening -- while I have done it and like it -- is somewhat of a luxury. But it's much easier than rows in the dirt! Admittedly we had a very tough year here, but I consistently grew more veggies in my little about 50 square feet on my patio in containers in the city than I did in a 30x100 foot raised bed garden out in the dirt this year. Ouch.

    Rooftop water collection and a large cistern can secure much of your personal water needs, city or country. Unless you need a livestock pond, water may be less of an issue than you are thinking.

    And if 4 acres in the countryside that already been started is up your alley and Alabama sounds good to you, let me know!

  • Belgianpup
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A wise person once said that if you can't intensively grow (and keep under control) one acre, you're surely not going to do it with fifty. As Nicole pointed out, there just aren't enough hours in the day for one or two people get everything done.

    You'll never be truly self-sufficient. It isn't possible. The closest anyone has come to it was the mountain men of the old days, and most of them died by the age of 35. You just can't plow, plant, keep the tractor going, keep the well pump going, be an ironmonger, weave your own fabric, etc. If you mean self-sufficient in food production, you should be able to support two people on less than an acre of decent land.

    Going out into the sticks is the dream of many people. Some actually accomplish it, then spend the rest of their time there regretting it. Or they leave and go back to the city feeling like failures, when the worst thing they really did was not do their homework.

    I would suspect that your realistic max for production would be about five acres of arable land. More if you find something with trees. Don't make the mistake of thinking you'll be cutting down the trees to plant crops.

    Have any water sources tested. Many worn-out farms are loaded with chemicals. A lot of algae in standing water is a clue (excess nitrogen and phosphorus). Rainwater and cisterns are your best bet, as mentioned above. It's cleaner than anything you'll find on the ground.

    You should have the soil tested, too. Make sure they're testing for the important trace minerals, too. Figure out how much it will cost to bring the soil back into balance. You either get the soil right, or everything else will go wrong.

    If you buy five acres or so on the edge of town, make sure it's zoned for agriculture before you buy. Some people have been surprised at the zoning.

    How old are you and hubby? If this is a retirement farm, you'll have to hire help sooner or later.

    I'm assuming that you're reading and reading and reading.

    Natural Land Care by Pat Coleby
    All of Mollison's Permaculture books.
    All of Gene Logsdon's books on farming
    How to Make $100,000 a Year Farming 25 Acres by Booker T. Whatley
    All of Joel Salatin's books
    Micro Eco-Farming by Barbara Berst-Adams
    Subscribe to AcresUSA magazine and start reading the books they recommend.
    Read about GM crops and how they're affecting non-GM crops

    What you need to find out is what questions to ask about the properties you might buy.

    And be shot full of luck wouldn't hurt, either.

    And I really hope you find the right place.

    Sue

  • stoneunhenged
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If your goal is self-suffiency and not small-scale market gardening, a relatively small amount of land will do. Four acres will work just fine if it is efficiently planned. The single most crucial element is access to sunlight. Solar radiation on plants is the only 'free lunch' out there. Don't buy a shaded lot or a lot that can't be cleared of large trees.

    I would recommend building raised bed gardens and keeping chickens as a good start. The raised beds will allow for intensive vegetable gardening and, done right, will be very productive. A few chickens will give you eggs year 'round and will give you an efficient way to dispose of excess or defective produce and table scraps. You can use the chicken manure to fertilize the raised beds.

    Once you have mastered these basic skills --and it may take you a few years-- then I would move onto large row crops (corn, melons, etc.) in a field garden. This will require more equipment and a new set of skills. You might also want to consider raising a pig or two at this point; also an increase in the skill level and capital investment needed to be a farmer.

    Then, from here, it's just a matter of scaling up to suit your needs. You may want a small orchard. You may want to try other small livestock. But, I'd recommend you start with the easy stuff. Even the basics -- a raised bed garden and chickens-- could with some work supply well more than half your family's food needs in a relatively short period of time.

  • songbirdmommy
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you everyone for your feedback, more is appreciated.
    A little more about our family.
    We do have a large family and we homeschool. I am a Master Gardener, the gardening thing is not a problem, unless you live in a snootyville area like we do.
    We moved here, not knowing the "rules" of the neighborhood and the laws we do break to live the way we would like.
    We have 12 "bootleg" chickens, we are restricted with what we can and can not plant and how much of our yard must remain "pristine, park like"
    Sterilant was put on A LOT of the ground so that nothing will grow even with scraping off the existing topsoil and adding compost(with is illegal to do also).
    We have been turned into the association for growing Pumpkins and corn! Oh my!
    Nothing was said about the Kale, broccoli and lettuce growing in a gorgeous conatainer on the front porch thought! LOL
    My Hubby is a hi-tech guy and was one of the start up guys for a well known computer hardward co.
    We are sick of the rat race, especially with living here this past year.

    Basically we can move anywhere in the counrty.
    We want a place that is kid friendly, small scale farmer friendly, some place we can put down roots and call home for the rest of our lives.
    We want a "simpler" way of life, especially if life to goes to Hell in a handbasket, we want to be able to provide for ourselves.
    We have lived through earthquakes and riots where grocery stores shelves have been stripped bare.
    Now with food recalls and tainted foods and everything, we just want to minimize the risk and exposure to "stuff".
    For those who say, yah, well even breathing will kill ya, your right, but you can either breath fresh air or sit in a garage with the car going...
    With the price of oil per barrel sky rocketing, it will only be a matter of time before it shows up on the grocery bills.
    I do not mind canning and storing, we currently have 1-2 years worth of food saved of basic stuff, just in case, and rotate it into our normal daily diet.
    The home we had before this one had not restrictions on land use.
    We lived on an acre, heated our 4400 sqft. home with a wood burning stove.... well almost all of it was toasty.... the Master Suite wasn't!
    We understand and appreciate the large amount of work cutting and hauling wood for heating, and we are willing to do that, but would like to look into better ways...

    Berm homes with solar panels.
    Having the solar heated water heat the floorboards, radiant heat?
    Collectors also warm the water used for cooking and cleaning.
    Windmill to drive a water pump.
    A large pond or small lake to fish and recreation(swim and canoe in).
    Greenhouse for year round food production.

    We have found two propeties that interest us.
    One is 5 acres, on a main street just two miles outside of town, which could put us in town within 20 years, with new homes all around.
    We LOVE the home, it is perfect for our family, but we would have to add a fireplace/wood or cob stove, solar panels, fix the well & windmill, then hope the water is good.
    It has a wonderful large Morton building, a barn, slab for a small greenhouse and a guest house perfect for our two older sons who both have expressed interest in helping us out(for free room and board while going to school)

    The other is 80 acres, has a 1.5 acre spring fed pond, lots of rolling grasslands and wooded areas, about 20 minute drive from town and a mile off the hwy. on a dirt road. I like this property better.... the HUGE drawback???It has electricity up to the proprty line, but no utilities, no structures.
    But this could also be a plus, if was want to build a Berm House....
    Has anyone done improvements to their land? How much does it cost to add electricity. dig a well. make a lagoon system?

    We are not in a hurry to buy, we are just testing the waters to see what is out there and if there is a property that will work for us and is in move in condition. So far these are the two that best fits our criteria, but neither is perfect.
    I keep wishing I could move the home from the 5 acre farm to where the 80 acres is.... then I think it would be a no brainer! LOL

    We are planning to get a jersey cow, I think someone asked about that. We have a seller lined up for when we are ready to get her.
    I will be making my own dairy products(make most of it as I can... we have a friend that owns a dairy farm in the next town over that I get cream/milk from once in a while.
    We also want a lot of fruit trees.
    We had a small orchard at our last home, this one has no fruit trees.
    Canning and drying them for the winter and spring is BIG for our family. Used up the last bottle of peaches from 2006 last night.
    We would like to increase our flock size to about 50. We allow ours to free range during the day(currently they prefer to stay cooped up because of the snow we have received this past week)We go through A LOT of eggs!
    Obviously our neighbors now would have nuclear meltdowns if they knew we wanted to keep bees as well.

    These are a few of our thought of sustainablity.

  • alabamanicole
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am really sorry to hear about your community. It sounds like you wouldn't want neighbors that short sighted and oblivious anyway, would you? Me, I'd love to have you as a neighbor. :)

    You are dreaming big but I honestly would suggest you pick a place, move there and rent for a while to see if it suits you before embarking on a homestead project.

    Since I am currently planning a green home and have been fixing up this rural property, I may be able to help with estimates a bit, but local costs can vary widely, particularly with utility service. So these are just general numbers.

    On that 80 acres, going off-grid might be cheaper than pulling utilities in if you want to get back off the street a-ways. Providing, of course, you can generate sufficient energy in your location. Out in the boonies, you just need power, and maybe phone and cable. If there's even cable access -- otherwise you'll need satellite internet/TV. And there are always cell phones. You'll have a well and septic system for water and sewage disposal.

    First, you CAN move homes. Purchasing a small older house is often cheaper than the actual fees moving it to the property. You could use that as a base of operations while building a new home, and then it could be the guest house. The boys can fix it up as part of their free room and board. :) Alternately, people always want someone to come and get rid of an old trailer. Not high class accommodations, but as a temporary home it would be fine. You do want to be nearby while the house is being built to keep your eye on things.

    In my area, construction costs for stick-built un-energy efficient homes are about $100/sq ft including lot cost. ICF construction with Icycene roof is about $115/sq ft including lot costs. (I don't yet know the raw figures without lot costs, but I just purchased 1/3 acre, unfinished, for $30k and it will be $50-$55k by the time I put a building pad in. FWIW.) Those prices can vary a lot depending on the finish level you want and how much you do yourself or if you act as your own contractor. Which, unless you've done it before, I don't recommend. Or at least get a good consultant.

    I can't recommend ICF as a construction material enough, especially if you are in a tornado or hurricane prone area. ICF will also work for bermed houses and daylight basements extremely well, and be completely dry inside. A typical ICF home uses less than half the energy of a comparable stick frame home -- and even less if you try harder.

    SIP construction is another energy efficient building method -- also a premium price over stick frame.

    Don't forget to look at passive solar home designs. Choose a pro; a poorly designed passive solar home is an uncomfortable nightmare. My chosen architect has a web page at http://www.sunplans.com with many of her plans online for viewing. Passive solar homes don't have to look funky or ultra modern.

    Digging a well is about $5k-$10k or more, depending on depth. Plus pumps, tank and trenching up to the house. There's no guarantee you'll hit water when you dig but you have to pay anyway. When I looked as restoring my well, the well was good and clean and very wet, but the other bits would cost about $2000.

    Solar hot water heating is not very effective for radiant heating and when you include the backup systems are usually not energy efficient at all. The people I know that have it have 3 problems -- 1) it heats the house in the summer much better than in the winter, 2) the hot water for showers is never hot and 3) the amount of solar capacity needed to really heat the house is just too much.

    In most areas, an electric geothermal heat pump is more cost effective and works better. You'll have to do core samples to find out if it's suitable for your land, but you can also lay the lines in a nearby pond even more cheaply. I'm not sure if that's compatible with livestock using the pond, but I would guess not.

    If you have a PV array to supply that electricity, all the better.

    Stand-alone solar hot water without the heating, provided you have the proper exposure and required sun, can be a big energy saver.

    Before getting on the solar bandwagon, be sure the property is in a latitude and climate where solar is effective. Many places in the US are just not good for active solar, either hot water or PV arrays. (Passive solar works anywhere, as does daytime solar space heating.)

    That goes double for wind power. Unless you have a strong, unidirectional prevailing wind, putting up a windmill is going to be more pain than help, and windmills take a lot of expensive maintenance. They are generally not effective at the home level.

    Outlying greenhouses are fairly cheap to build if you aren't going to a fancy glass or acrylic one. You do need to replace the plastic every 2 or 3 years. In reality, most climates don't need a greenhouse to produce food all year round. Come down South and you'll prefer winter gardening when there are no bugs. :) Or, design the home with the greenhouse attached (a conservatory) and enjoy the benefits of the plants all year round. Just provide pollination.

    Making a pond will not be too bad. You just need a local operator. It's cheap to hire a guy with his own backhoe; often cheaper than renting one and attempting to do it yourself and taking twice as long. Call it $500 a day. He'll probably dig a 2nd pond, then at the end, break the dam between them. However, if the pond is fed from groundwater or an underground spring you may not be able to go very deep because the equipment won't be able to operate in the water.

    Of course, if the water table is that high, a daylight basement is out of the question unless you have a convenient hill.

    Septic tank costs depend on the number of bedrooms in the house. In most areas, expect now to build an engineered mound system; ~1000g gallons for a 3 bedroom house. $20k-ish.

    Do consider coming down South. The climate is mild and many people here are not far from their rural roots, if indeed they ever left. Most places are livestock and farm friendly and hunting and fishing are just normal recreation you can do nearby. Land prices are still affordable but unlike what you may have heard, the place is not filled with gun-toting Klan members. (But yes, all your neighbors own shotguns and you will too if you don't already.) It's suitable for solar, and most of the unincorporated areas don't have building codes and inspectors so you can do anything you want provided it clears the health department.

    I think that's enough for now...

  • stoneunhenged
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I second the motion for you to move South.

    I live in North Florida near Tallahassee. It's a great place to raise kids...and food, for that matter. We live about twenty minutes from the center of town but have about a dozen pigs, a small herd of cattle, a small flock of sheep, chickens, two greenhouses, a small orchard, and two field gardens. My kids get the best of both worlds: access to the sort of things you would expect in a university town that is also the state capital, but they also live on a farm and see that side of life.

    Like your husband, I started my own company and could live anywhere. We also have a house in Montana, but I couldn't imagine living there in the winter. On our farm in Florida, we have maybe ten nights a year when it freezes (like tonight, actually) but I am able to grow citrus. We have a lime tree right outside our front door. The Gulf is less than 40 miles away, but we are sheltered from hurricanes. And, we have the best groundwater I've ever seen: crystal clear, near the surface, and available in unlimited quantities.

  • fruithack
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The secret to finding a great anything (community, piece of land, employee, vehicle, spouse, etc) is to PERSONALLY invest the necessary time and effort to see and evaluate a LOT of that thing. After you've invested the effort, you will know almost immediately when you come across EXACTLY what you are looking for. No substitutes that I know of. Feel sorry for the folks who think that fate has blessed them as the first thing they see is IT. No resistance in the process, patiently enjoy the process of the search, and you will be rewarded. Your goal will also undergo a healthy process of revision and evolution during the search.

  • Carol_from_ny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd suggest you add some guinea hens to your flock. They do a excellent job eating the bad bugs, they don't make dusting holes nearly as bad as hens, they will eat snakes and generally won't do the damage hens do to gardens and they are good watch birds.
    As for a house I'd think ideally a home which was as maintenance free as possible and as fuel efficient as possible would be your goal. It would give you the maximum amount of time to devote to other things.
    For this I'd consider an underground home. The up front cost may be more but over time and with proper planning it could be your best bet.
    A soil/water test before buying any property since you plan to live off the land would be my number one priority.
    When you raise livestock at some point you are going to need a vet who specializes in large animals. When looking for a place to set up I'd add that to the list of things to check out.

  • texas_greenman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think your 80 acre solution obviously has more options. You can start the permaculture activities as soon as you buy the land. Plant lots of fruit trees (different species and varieties) around the edges of the woodlands. Put in lots of perenials as soon as you can using guilds and other permaculture designs.

    Set aside some land for pasture and strongly consider native American Bison rather than the invasive swine and bovine.

    Use a grey water system and composting toilets and you will never need the nasty, wasteful septic tank or sewer system.

    Plan to produce way more than you need, then trade with the community.

    Consider moving to an area with a thriving organic farmer's market. That means you have many local growers who think like you do. Form a co-op. That is one way to overcome the destruction of community in our current culture.

    Have fun.

  • fran_always
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SongBird, have you looked into the CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) movement, where several families share land and/or work? I am not familiar with the movement, just reading Scott Chasley's "This Common Ground" right now. It sounds interesting work-wise and it includes you into a community of like-minded people. Plus, of course, these are organic farms.

  • survivalgardening
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The is a family in Passadina California that is self sufficient on 1/10th of an acre. The website is www.pathtofreedom.com or you can find them on you tube. If they can do it so can anyone. I am currently embarking on the same venture on a two acre plot. I have over 100 fruit trees a huge garden over 75 chickens and a few goats. I am planning on a green house and still have room for growth. 2 acres is a lot of land for a small family. Look for a book called square foot gardening and another called backyard market gardening. These will give you a good start. I hope this helps.

  • cameron_fartherforward_com
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am curious how this turned out for songbird - did they make the move to the 80 or the 5 or stay put or did they do something different entirely?

    I second the suggestions of texas greenman - infusing the right blend of perennials and getting the forest garden concept started ASAP is key.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Farther Forward

  • TheMasterGardener1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes I am trying the same thing. Alot of info on here helps alot thanks guys. I just found one needs 800sq ft of raised beds to provide for one person. I plan to grow everything I need and some with only 600 sq ft provided I will buy rice. Yes a water well is important or a source of water that can be filtered or declorinated. Rain water is an option. I would love to find land with natural water sources on it but that may be pricey?

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