Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
powderpuff_gw

Dyna-Gro Folilage Pro vs Dyn-Gro Grow Question

powderpuff
10 years ago

First let me say, I have used Dyna-Gro products for over 10 years, used to used them for my orchids too.

I called Dyna-Gro back then and discussed which formulas to use. I was told to use the GROW formula which is 7-9-5 or All Pro 7-7-7 on plants that bloom and Foliage Pro 9-3-6 on plants that produce foliage or plants that need a push to produce roots.

I have also used Pro Tekt for many years. I have used their Mag Pro as well to force blooms on reluctant bloomers.

My staple for plants that bloom was always the 7-9-5 Grow or 7-7-7 All Pro.

My question is, what is the reasoning for using the Foliage Pro which is high in nitrogen? Is there a difference because of the Gritty Mix? I'm going to call Dyna-Gro again today but I wanted to ask here, since this is Al's mix and I'm not sure if the mix ingredients necessitate the use of a high nitrogen food vs a balanced or the 7-9-5. All Dyna Gro products have the essential minors in them.

Comments (35)

  • plumejunkie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nitrogen (N) aids in strong leaf and stem growth and promotes dark green leaf color. Too much nitrogen causes soft foliage and delays flowering, while not enough nitrogen causes stunted growth and leaf yellowing.

    Phosphorus (P) is needed for root development and also helps the plants to set buds for flowering. Not enough phosphorus can cause stunted plant growth.

    Potassium (K) improves plant hardiness in both hot and cold weather. It also helps in seed production and improves the size and quality of flowers. A plumeria fertilizer with not enough potassium will result in poor cellular structure therefore a weak plant, reduced flower quality and flower size.

    When using the gritty mix you need to fertigate. You need to constantly feed your plants because there is no soil to provide nutrients to the plants.

    Hopes this helps

    Jason

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    PJ, I understand all of that. I also understand GM is has no nutrients. My question is, why is Foliage Pro with a higher nitrogen number preferred over the other 2 that Dyna-Gro specialists suggest to use for flowering trees. Does the Gritty Mix have some special need for a high nitrogen number? I feel based on what Dya-Gro specialists said that the best for Plumerias is 7-9-5 or 7-7-7. However the one thing that they cannot comment on is why GM may need a number high in N since they aren't familiar with that particular mixture, but they are very familiar with other inert mixes and still suggested 7-9-5 for trees or plants that produce flowers and and 7-7-7 or Foliage Pro for ones that don't. That is not to say FP cannot produce flowers but they say it's not the preferred formula.

    This post was edited by powderpuff on Tue, Jul 23, 13 at 0:40

  • mksmth zone 7a Tulsa Oklahoma
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just my opinion but It could be because someone once said it was better and everyone believed them based on credibility. I use FP because of that. I see good results from using it so I see no need to try something different.

    scientifically I have no clue.

    Mike

  • plumejunkie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmmmm, well powder puff, unless I'm reading your post wrong, they don't seem to be encouraging you to use foliage pro. Since you have a plant that blooms & is a tree, they suggest you use the grow formula.

    Side note - I think it's important to adjust your formula as the season changes, especially if you live in a place with colder winters. Earlier in the year, something with a higher nitrogen is ok because your trying to stimulate growth. As the season progresses, it's important to bump up the phosphorus a LITTLE bit (too much phosphorus can cause calcium & magnesium deficiencies) to create more bud sets, it's probably ok to lower nitrogen a bit so more energy is going into bud development instead of green growth. Towards the end of the season, it's important to cut out nitrogen all together to stop new growth & protect the plant for winter. Potassium may stay the same level throuought the season or even be raised once blooms arrive. I came to this belief after reading a number of articles by Jack Morgan. I wish I could find them, but his sites are allowed up.

    Me personally, I use a combination of fish emulsion for nitrogen, Jamaican bat guano for phosphorus, & kelp meal for potassium. I adjust the mixture accordingly depending on the season. I throw in some black strap molasses to feed the bugs in my mix(has some soil). I also add some potassium silicate & fulvic acid maybe once a week.

    I've heard of dyna grow, but chose to stay away because of the salts. If your in a gritty mix it's probably not as big of a deal.

    Anyway, you seem to have something that's working well yor you & that's great! Excuse my rant, I really dig this kind of stuff. Ill be interested to follow this thread & see what pops up.

    Peace & happy growing,
    Jason

  • PRO
    the_first_kms2
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have understood Foliage Pro is recommended due to the 3-1-2 ratio of the NPK in it which is believed to be the most likely absorption ratio of tested plants (most likely food crops or big agri-business crops). Even the soluble miracle grow (blue granules) has a 3-1-2 ratio so I guess its relatively common.

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    plumiejunkie, that is correct. They said Foliage Pro is best for seedling or young plants that need to be pushed to grow and nurseries use it for that purpose because they need accelerated growth to push them out the door and into the market and that if they are blooming plants after they grow quickly they then use the bloom formula to push blooms on the already pushed growth so they can sell them quickly.

    The 7-7-7 has less micros and they thought less of that one, but it is supposedly cheaper.

    The recommended Grow, the 7-9-5 unless they were babies, which most of mine are not. For newly rooted cuttings, seedlings, that are small and you want to really push growth, then use the Foliage Pro. They said the high nitrogen in Foliage Pro can affect blooming plants.

    I also have to wonder how much environment plays a part in which one to use. Cooler day time temps, less intense sun, more or less cloudy days, night time temps, etc. They said the potting medium should not make any difference unless you were using a lot of ingredients that are high in nitrogen already.

    Based on what they said, I'm switching back to what I used for years, the 7-9-5 unless they are babies that I need to push growth on. I believe too much nitrogen causes too much soft leaf growth which can be stressful to the tree in extremely high temps and hot tropical sun.

    If they need greened up, Epsom salts or Spray and Grow always does the trick.

    You made some very good points here and I agree with all of them:

    [" I think it's important to adjust your formula as the season changes, especially if you live in a place with colder winters. Earlier in the year, something with a higher nitrogen is ok because your trying to stimulate growth. As the season progresses, it's important to bump up the phosphorus a LITTLE bit (too much phosphorus can cause calcium & magnesium deficiencies) to create more bud sets, it's probably ok to lower nitrogen a bit so more energy is going into bud development instead of green growth. Towards the end of the season, it's important to cut out nitrogen all together to stop new growth & protect the plant for winter. Potassium may stay the same level throuought the season or even be raised once blooms arrive. I came to this belief after reading a number of articles by Jack Morgan."]

    I have never had a problem with salts with Dyna-Gro. I do flush my pots really well and do not feed with every watering. I also use some other products but they are super pricey and not practical for routine use with over 125 trees in 3-25 gallon pots or in the ground.

    I meant to add I do use Pro-Tek but not every single time. I believe if you use it every time you feed it causes distorted leaves and I'm not the only one that has noticed this.

    Tex at Florida Colors and Emerson Willis use Vitazyme. I got some and will be trying it. It's NOT a plant food, more like a Superthrive, but different:

    (An all-natural liquid biostimulant that includes brassinosteroids, triacontanol, enzymes, vitamins, and other powerful but gentle growth stimulators.)

    http://www.plantdesigns.com/vitazyme/

    kms2- perhaps, but I would like to see the studies on that summation and what plants, soils, conditions that caused that determination. I have 2 gallons of Foliage Pro so it will get used on the babies, and once in a while if I notice yellow leaves, but I'm going back to what I used to use and what Dyna-Gro recommends for plants that are not babies and that bloom, the Grow 7-9-5. That was my staple for Plumies, orchids and any flowering plants in the past. For the non-flowering I used the Pro 7-7-7 and Nutricoate time release. I'm also going back to using some time release in the pots. A quick note, if a Plumeria is root bound and there are lots of roots on the surface, I suggest do NOT use the time release on top, it will burn those roots.

  • Minderella
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a question. I used the Protekt and foliage pro together for the first time last night. When I added them together they formed like white globs. Are you not suppose to mix them together? And I also didnt know there are more products than FP and Protekt. I used FP all last year. I will have to look into this. Also have heard lots of the spray and grow lately. I am so confused now.

    Mindy

  • elucas101
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Minderella, add the ProTekt first, then add more water, then add the Foliage Pro. They bind together if added in reverse or directly together.

  • Minderella
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you Elucas, I added them first without water in the bucket. Will try filling with water first then adding Protekt then water then Foliage pro

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mindarella, don't feel bad, the first time I used it years ago I put Dya-Gro and Pro-Tekt in an ortho sprayer, undiluted, what a disaster. A big globby mess that immediately clogged up the sprayer.

    There are lots of other products but Dyna-Gro is very affordable and very good. There are several formulas as well as some special ones. They have a website and you can also call them. Their customer service is very good and very knowledgeable.

    My staple is Dyna-Gro GROW formula, not Foliage Pro. Either will work but most Plumeria growers suggest balanced or one with a slightly higher middle number. Jungle Jacks, Exotic Plumeria,Brad's etc. ,,,,, none of them recommend a higher nitrogen food,

    This year I moved mine to the Gritty Mix so changed my feeding habits based on that and used Foliage Pro. I got almost zero blooms but lots of soft green foliage here in Florida. What works well in one area may not work so well in others. I switched back to Grow formula and already the leaves are harder, and a few inflos are trying to start. We have had rain and clouds off and on for a month so I don't have much hope for them just starting to try to bloom so late in the season.

    Next year will be better. At least I haven't lost any and they are growing well, roots spilling out of the holes in the pots.

    I use Spray and Grow also. Not a lot but if they look a little pale, it really greens them up super fast. I feel that some plants may have trouble taking the food up through their roots at times, but they can always take it in through their leaves. That's the only product that I see nearly overnight results with. I like it. It's a pain and takes time to spray it on the top and bottom of the leaves, but it sure makes them look nice if they are a little pale due to the hot sun every day. Mine stay nice and dark green unless we have several days of hot Florida sun, then they get paler. The Seaweed products work miracles too for greening them up.

    Here are products I have used in the past and like. There are so many available and everyone swears by something different. Whatever works for you in your area. The only one on this list that I don't suggest using more than once in a while is Hawaiian Bud and Bloom. I will use it on a potted plant very rarely and never on my Plumerias in the ground because FL soil is already high in Phosphorous. Supposedly Hawaii growers have good luck with it though. I use it more on things like Gardenia, Hibiscus, things like that. It makes Hibiscus bloom like crazy!

    Flora Nova Grow 7-4-10
    Flora Nova Bloom 4-8-7
    Grow More Hawaiian Bud & Bloom 5-50-17
    Spray and Grow
    Grow More 3130 16-Ounce Cactus Juice 1-7-6
    Bills Perfect 6-11-5
    House and Garden Magic Green
    Seaweed Extract Liquified Organic Kelp .1-.1-1.5
    Bonadea Gardens Sea Magic Seaweed
    Atlantis Fish Emulsion 2-4-0
    Root Organics Buddha Bloom- 0.5-5-15
    Floralicious Organic Enhancer Bloom 1-1-1
    Dyna Gro Bloom 3-12-6
    Dyna Gro Grow 7-9-5
    Dyna Gro Foliage Pro 9-3-6
    Dyna Gro Mag Pro 2-15-4
    Dyna Gro Protekt
    House & Garden Root Excelurator
    Pennington Epsom Salts

  • Minderella
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just bought a new container of Foliage Pro. I will look into the Grow formula though.

    I forget where in florida you live. I am in central, nw of orlando

    Mindy

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    2 places, central Florida and the Keys. All of my trees in the Keys go in the ground and stay in the ground. I'm south of you, near the Tampa area and we do get freezes here. My big ones are now mostly in the ground. I will lift soe in the winter just like a VERY successful grower and friend in Texas does each year. His get bigger and more beautiful each year since they are not forced to live in hot confined pots all summer. I'm going to leave a couple 8 foot ones in the ground and use a frost blanket this winter. We shall see if they make it.

    I recall an article by Bud Guillot where he said none of his had ever seen the inside of a pot. He roots them in the ground and grows them in the ground. That's how it is done in the Keys and Miami area. It can also be done in central Florida except winter protection has to be provided which is a pain.

    The main thing is do not let them get wet then store them in a cool garage. Get them in before a rainy cold front comes. They can take more cold than one thinks, but they cannot take cold and wet, particularly the youngsters. Get some used pallets, keep them off the cold floor, keep the tips away from cold walls, do not let them touch them. On warm days, if you have them in a garage or greenhouse, give them some fresh air, and even a tiny bit of water IF and only IF it is going to be warm until they dry out again. By tiny bit of water I mean 1/4 C for a 1 gallon pot, 1 C for a 5 gallon pot. I lost a LOT this past winter, all 1-2 year old rooted cuttings that got rained on then put in a garage in advance of a cold front.. All of the larger ones made it with no problems.

    I just ordered 2 gallons of the grow formula, the Foliage pro will be used for seedlings and other various yard plants and some very young rooted cuttings. Not for the big trees on a regular basis. I cannot find one Plumeria nursery or large grower of Plumeras that recommends that nitrogen be the highest, not one. If I do, then I may reconsider,.

    Too much soft leaf growth for the blistering FL sun and heat. Even Pro-tek can't protect roots & leaves from stressing out in black pots, with 95 degree + temps with no breeze. The babies that are in 1-5 gallon pots are now being painted white so they are very cool to the touch, HUGE difference.

    Double potting and mulching help but why go to all that trouble when they will still be hot, why not just put them in the ground and lift in the fall? It's so much easier than worrying about them all summer.

  • Minderella
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know what you mean by lift sow. Are they in pots and put in ground or just put in ground and then dug up when it gets cold?

    Powderpuff, you are so wonderful giving me all this advice. I so much appreciate it.

    Mindy

  • honeybunny2 Fox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Minderella, a picture is worth a thousand words. Look under Emerson's Plumerias on the web site, then look under Other Plumeria Pictures, then look at the pictures that are labeled garage. This is how you lift sow. Can be pots, or large rooted bare root plants stored for the winter. Usually done week after Thanksgiving here in Texas. Barbra

  • PRO
    the_first_kms2
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Powder, wanting to see those purported plant studies makes sense to me. The short answer to your original question about why foliage pro is recommended is...because Tapla said so.

    Dynagro fertilizer product are in my opinion unnecessarily difficult to acquire and expensive for the same results as most anything else with similar numbers. I always say to use what you think works and be consistently routine about it. Then experiment with new things and compare result.

  • Minderella
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Barbra. I tried to find the pics but couldn't. I am not too good at this website looking for things
    Mindy

  • honeybunny2 Fox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Minderella, I will write it down, like I give cooking instructions. Seems to help when I put in steps.

    Step 1: key into your windows internet explorer website search, the words "emersons Plumerias"-- This will take you to www.emersonsplumerias.com. You need to left click on this or you can just key in www.emersonsplumerias.com.

    Step 2: after you enter www.emersonsplumerias.com, it will take you to "Trees of Color" Emersons Plumerias page.

    Step 3: On this page on the left side under Plumeria Galleries, count down 18, and select "Other Plumeira Pics" left click on this.

    Step 4: This will take you to pictures he has taken of his house and yard. You need to look at the pictures that say garage, or back of garage, I think there are 6 different pictures. Good luck. Barbra

    This post was edited by honeybunny2 on Sun, Jul 28, 13 at 21:52

  • Minderella
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you Barbra, I was looking for it in GardenWeb site. I am such and idiot. Mindy

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello everyone,

    I wasn't going to post because it seems to be a touchy subject to some people....

    All I am going to say is that everyone has the right to read and then decide and make their own decision on what is best for them...this goes with soils too.

    No one told me to pick what type of fertilizer to use... I decided for myself what was good for me based on my own findings. I have tried many things over the years and I have and will continue to use what I like and what works best for me.

    Use what you like ... There are all sorts of fertilizers out there for you to try...

    See what works best for you and then what is convenient for you as well.

    I like that I don't have to change during the summer.. I do use Foliage Pro and ProteKt. It works the best for me. I have 24 Inflos forming and this has been the best year ever. I said that last year too! So each year seems to be better and better...We do know it is what we do in the year before that produces what we see this year... So i am seeing positive things here.

    I respect everyone here and I also respect Tapla (Al). He has been a great help in the development of my trees (Plumeria) and other container trees too!

    No one is saying that you need to use this or that... You can make up your own mind and then try and see what works for you.

    All I will say is that my trees have never been healthier and I have more Inflos each year... I guess it is working for me!!!

    Thank you Al.. I do appreciate what you try and share. It is what you want to take and learn... I have taken things from you and others too and applied this to my growing abilities... I guess my trees are happy!! ;-).

    That is what I am looking for... Happy trees, healthy blooms..

    Laura

  • honeybunny2 Fox
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love Al gritty mix, but unfortunate I can not use it for my rooted plants. I can only use it for rooting cuttings. I have found nothing better to root cutting in. My plants, cannot live in the gritty mix, since I am not there to water daily. My plants are in full South Texas sun, with coastal winds. They need a soil that can retain some water. I have been using K's soil mixture. since he put his recipe on this forum. I have renamed his soil mixture Special K". I think different circumstances require different choices for plumeria soil. I tried the gritty mix, but had to switch because of my circumstances. I agree with Laura, you need to do what is best for your plants. She has healthy plants, the pictures she post shows the great success she has using Al's gritty mix. My plants in the ground, have 1/2 gritty mix and 1/2 garden soil, I am going to have to change this to 1/3 gritty mix to 2/3 garden soil next year, for now I am going to install drip irrigation to get more moisture to my plants. This is how I am learning by trial and error. My best advise to anyone on this forum, is to check with the people who live in your area, and see what works for them. Barbra

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Mindy...

    What I meant by lift is to plant them in the ground in the spring. Let their roots be where they want to be(underground) for the summer, then In the fall or early winter if you live in an area where they must be protected, when temps begin to dip, dig them up with the soil they are in, trim the roots if you want to and put them in a pot, wrap them in burlap, put them in a box, hang them up whatever you want to do, and then store them wherever would put a tree that was in a pot all summer. Check out honeybunny's links on this thread to see how Emerson does it in TX.

    honeybunny...

    I agree about the gritty mix. You can't beat it it for rooting cuttings or for newly rooted cuttings IF the pot is sunk in the ground or painted white. A newly rooted cutting can fill up a 1 or 3 gallon pot fairly fast and in a black pot in TX, FL the roots just bake. I think the bigger ones can survive in the gritty mix IF the pots are plunged or painted white and if you water 1-2 times a day when it's hot and sunny. It has a distinct advantage during heavy periods of rain but a distinct disadvantage during periods of blazing sun and intense heat

    I agree that Laura has beautiful healthy looking trees and beautiful blooms but that is in Virginia Beach. They get hot, but the sun intensity is not even close to what it is in TX and FL. All one has to do is compare the average temps there to ones in FL and TX then also figure in the tropical sun factor and heat index and there really is no comparison. So what thrives there with a certain mix or food will not necessarily thrive elsewhere and may decline elsewhere.

    Also, and I do not know the answer to this, but I wonder if it's possible that some plants are genetically programmed to need different amounts of nitrogen. I would not think that Plumerias whose native habitat is often in soils with barely any nitrogen would not require the same as a rain forest plant that grows in heavily organic composted soil.

    Honeybunny... isn't Emerson fabulous? He is so knowledgeable and the amount of work he puts into Plumerias is amazing. He has planted them all over the United States just because he wants to. A wonderful man. He's stored them in his garage like that for as long as I remember and I believe I first met him around 1996-97. If it weren't for Emerson there would be no Gulfstream or Ryan Chelsey. I knew those mother trees, so sad they were bulldozed. They live on because of Emerson!

    Laura... I had no idea it would be a "touchy" subject and it shouldn't be. I think that people that grow Plumerias should chime in. I began to have doubts using a high N food when everything I have ever read or been told says not to. I have used Dyna Gro for many, many years. I used to buy it in the 5 gallon containers. It's not nearly as expensive that way. You know that I think your trees are gorgeous! I'm not doubting this works for you right now. But who's to say in a year or two you will not begin to notice elongated, thin branches, soft foliage, etc. or you may not. I noticed it. My leaves were thinner, not heavy and thick like i am used to. I called Dyna Gro and that's how this got started when they said to use the GROW formula for flowering trees.

    Al, you should not assume that you are always right regarding the growing habits and needs of Plumeria because, and I don't mean this in a rude way, but you have almost zero experience with them. To assume that all plants needs are the same regarding how much nitrogen they need is rather silly. ..unless I am misunderstanding you and if I am please correct me. I love your mix, I do not agree with your choice of which Dyna Gro formula for Plumeria and neither does Dyna Gro. I called them.

    Also there are lots of other brands that have basically the same benefits as the Dyna Gro brand but many are more expensive, many less expensive.. There is a guy in SE FL that grows Plumerias and he uses all of those super expensive hydroponic foods and his blooms are magnificent.

    Which 2 Piumerias do you have and do you have any photos of them blooming?

    kms 2... I do like Dyna Gro but I sure don't think it's the only thing out there. I have several different ones but used Foliage Pro this year because of this forum. I began to suspect it was not the best formula and thought I should go back to my Dyna Gro Grow formula and others so I called Dyna Gro, It's really not nearly as expensive as some of the others that some people use to get those incredible bloom colors. Some of those hydroponic foods are ridiculously expensive. I like some time release on mine also. You can use both. FL Colors and many growers do. You just use less time release if you are also using others. It's just a matter of finding what works for you, with your schedule, your watering plans, your temps, heat index, potting medium, in pot or in ground, affordability, etc. etc. Also, there are a lot of Plumeria growers that won't use anything but organics and many of them have gorgeous trees and blooms.

    There are also many Plumeria growers, commercial and non-commercial on Facebook. I have yet to see one recommend a food higher in nitrogen. Many of them are into organics like seaweed, fish emulsion, coffee grounds, and many different other foods. You name it, someone has used it either now or in the past and once again what works one may not work well for someone else.

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HI Powder..

    Thank you for the kind comments on my trees. They really are thriving In my area and looking very happy!!! We are having a heat wave here in VB too! Temps can get very hot here as well, but I'm sure not as bad as Florida and Texas ... I take good care of my trees and try and do what I think is best. The response i see from my trees in the care that i I give them as far as watering and fertilizing is my indicator that they are happy. The leaves and overall health of my trees are the best I have seen .

    I hope you are having a good summer!!

    Here is to everyone having a good growing season!!!

    Take care,

    Laura

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Laura! ::)

    It's been so hot here, but actually the NE can have worse heat waves than we do. We almost never hit 100. TX gets much hotter, but the sun is so intense down here and the heat index is off the charts.

    Mine are all doing good, haven't lost any, growing a lot, some inflos, not as many as usual but that was to be expected plus we have had an incredibly cloudy, rainy June and July.

    As always I enjoy seeing the pictures of your beautiful trees and blooms.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    PP - I don't make a lot of assumptions- especially that I'm always right, and I'm very clear on what topics I am and am not qualified to comment on. I avoid those topics (like IDing varieties) because as you so often point out, I don't have a lot of experience growing plumerias.... and I've readily admitted this fact even in my first posts after being invited here to comment. I value my credibility, so you won't find me discussing topics that jeopardize that credibility. I didn't say (not even close) that all plants needs are the same re nitrogen, so you don't even understand how to interpret my comments. Plants' need for nitrogen varies considerably, but the ratio at which they use other nutrients in relation to the amount of N they use does not. We do know that no plant uses more P than N - not even close.

    There are thousands of varieties of woody plants I have never grown, but that sure doesn't mean that I'm clueless when it comes to putting together a program that comes about as close as you can come to allowing the plant to grow to its genetic potential (including plumeria - just another plant) ..... and I can usually very quickly spot why your and other's plants are not attaining THEIR potential. I've been doing it and teaching others how to avoid the pitfalls and add to their plant's potential, and getting paid for it, for a very long time. You'll never catch me operating at beyond the limits of my knowledge. Everything I offer, I can back with sound scientific reasoning.

    You're not the only person who has called Dyna-Grow and received information that Dave Neal, it's CEO, doesn't agree with. I've spoken with Dave on the phone several times about technical issues, and disagreed via email with the same advice you're taking for granted as golden. I wrote Dave and asked why his employee gave out the advice (to use 7-7-7 and 7-9-5 for blooming plants) you are accepting w/o question. Here is a copy/paste of the reply, which I've saved because this is a common topic. I've actually posted his reply on this forum but to another thread:

    From Dave: "Al - You are correct. We market high P fertilizers because people "believe" [his emphasis] they need them. As you have noted, our Foliage-Pro does a great job start to finish. However, it is simpler to give the market what they think they need than to try to reeducate it [my emphasis]. There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important. P is typically 5th or 6th in order of importance of the six macronutrients. There is little scientific justification for higher P formulas, but marketing does come into play for the vast majority of users who lack any real understanding of plant nutritional requirements. Therefore, the market is flooded with a plethora of snake oil products that provide little benefit and can actually do harm. For example, one exhibitor at a hydroponic trade show had a calcium supplement with 2% calcium derived from calcium chloride. Can you guess what continued application of 2% chloride would do to plants?'

    I hope this answers your question and am sorry for XXX's (name deleted) inaccurate response.

    Cordially,
    Dave Neal, CEO
    Dyna-Gro Nutrition Solutions ...."

    No one said Dyna-Grow is the only thing out there, and no one is twisting your arm to use it. It just happens to be an excellent product - especially if you understand and choose the most favorable ratio - the one with the least potential to limit.

    It is very commonly noted that what is most important is finding "what works best for you" (and I'm talking here about the collective 'you'). A huge % of growers are incapable of actually determining what works best, mostly because of the huge number of variables that contribute to or diminish a plant's vitality. If they or someone else has a good season, they often assume their methodology can't be improved upon, or think mimicking another's methods will ensure satisfying results. If you're searching for what works best by trial and error, or by looking at a picture and saying "I'm going to use what he/she is using because that's a pretty picture," you're really not in the game, and you're relying on chance. If you have to call someone for advice, you put yourself at risk that the advice might not be as solid as you think (note Dave's reply). If you're making decisions lacking the understanding to make them on your own - you're not even in the game.

    Plants grow best in their sweet spots. There is an ideal temperature range, light level, soil composition, pot size, fertility level, fertilizer ratio, moisture level. You can plop your plants right in the middle of the sweet spot by paying attention to what science says. Ignoring science and hoping you can make up for a poor soil by tinkering with a fertilizer ratio, or make up for root congestion by fertilizing more is an exercise in futility. Those growers who do understand the scientific side of plants' needs and take a broad-minded holistic overview of growing are at a very distinct advantage when it comes to plotting the most favorable course. They understand what it takes to eliminate to the greatest degree possible the effects of limiting factors, one of which would be a poor nutritional supplementation program. That's what growing is all about - what defines our ability as a grower is how good we are at eliminating limiting factors. Good/knowledgeable growers don't ask their plants to grow at or near the limits of what they are genetically programmed to tolerate.

    There is no shame in not understanding a plant's nutritional requirements, few do, but not understanding their requirements and still wanting to argue about them isn't going to do much for a person's credibility. The only upside to that is, the discussion provides a platform others might learn from and helps to sort out who really does understand.

    Al

    This post was edited by tapla on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 16:12

  • powderpuff
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al,
    So you are posting a private email from the CEO of DynaGro. Did he give you permission to publicly post his email in which he states that all of the other Dyna Gro products are basically marketing scams just to sell products that he thinks actually do no good and are bad for plants? I might just have to send him an emall myself regarding this and also ask him how many Plumeria he has grown and
    bloomed and for how many years.

    Dave Neal CEO of Dyna Gro said in an email, according to you, Al, that:
    ". There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important."

    SOME evidence but environmental factors are PROBABLY more important.

    Can't get much more iffy than that.

    and he also said according to you " it is simpler to give the market what they think they need than to try to reeducate it".SO basically he is saying he believes the other formulas are just to make money but he doesn't think they work?

    tsk tsk......

    Here is what the Plumeria growers recommend, you know, those growers that grow 1000's each year for many many years. The ones that have enormous trees that are often 30+ years old. Amazing how they managed to survive. Also do you understand that a Plumeria has to BLOOM to branch and the more it blooms the more it branches and that is what keeps it from becoming a tall skinny ugly stick? Do you know that their N needs are NOT the same as other plants or trees and they flourish and bloom in native soils high in P with very little N?

    Talk to these growers, tell them how they are doing it all wrong. Maybe Dave would like to contact them and tell them the same thing, try to convince them to use Foliage Pro.

    Keep in mind that there are many other smaller growers that do not have websites or do not have the info as to what they feed on their websites. There are many growers on facebook too. I could have made this list 5 times as long with the same answers but I do not think it is right to post peoples responses on facebook or emails to me so I am only posting here what is already available to anyone on the internet. You have yet to show me ONE Plumeria nursery that suggest a food with a higher N number. I'm still waiting.

    Exotic Plumeria:

    WATER SOLUBLE FERTILIZER SHOULD HAVE A PHOSPHORUS CONTENT OF 50 OR HIGHER. GRANULAR FERTILIZER SHOULD HAVE A PHOSPHORUS CONTENT OF 20 OR HIGHER

    Brad's Buds and Blooms:

    Use a high phosphorous fertilizer once every 2 weeks (look for the high middle number in the formula (15-30-15 for example), for plumeria, such as Miracle-Gro Bloom Booster after your plants have been with you about 2 weeks and had time to settle in.
    I also recommend using a product called Spray-N-Grow once a week on the leaves of all these plants for fantastic results

    Jungle Jacks:

    Fertilizer: We generally use commercial mixes with a 1-1-1 ratio or similar for our larger plants, and a time-released fertilizer on our smaller plumeria.

    Upland nursery:

    Fertilization should be applied during the growing season, balance 20-20-20 is a good fertilize to use during the growing season then switch off time to time with the fertilizer that has a high number of phosphorous such as middle number 50. We recommend the “Grow More” brand because we see the result better than any other brands. When the plumeria start to get into a dormant season, stop feeding the plumeria and wait until the next growing season to feed them again.

    Florida Colors:

    Feed your plumerias with a fertilizer high in Phosphorus (the middle number), such as Super Bloom or BR-61 to start the year. A consistent feeding program with a even number fertilizer will produce vigorous plants with large showy clusters of flowers. Foliar feeding helps with bloom production. Feed every 2-3 weeks from March/April through September. New formulation 11-40-6 Time-Release granular fertilizers are available now, which may be applied every 8 weeks or so. Avoid fertilizers high in Nitrogen (the first number) to maintain compact growth.
    Here in south Florida our trees, that are IN THE GROUND, get a shot of triple super phosphate every October. It makes a huge difference in spring bloom.

    Plumeriaparadise:CA

    Once seed has germinated and is transplanted, I stop spraying fertilizer, and actually fertilize every 3-4 weeks with a high phosphate fertilizer, such as 10-50-10.
    A Note About Plumeria/Adenium Fertilizers:
    There is much debate amongst home users as to which fertilizers give the best results. The suggestions given above are simply the ones which have worked well for us. Please keep in mind that all plants have individual feeding needs and a 'one size fits all' fertilizing plan generally will result in poor results.

    We at the nursery use these products and they work well for us. Plants can be OVER-FERTILIZED. Please follow directions. In our experience, we like to fertilize more often during the flowering season, but with a much higher dilution. This provides a constant feeding for the plants. For example: If the directions call for one scoop per gallon of water, and you are fertilizing once a month, we would put 1/4 of a scoop and do it every week during normal watering.
    Rootone (Rooting Hormone Powder), Dip n Grow (Rooting Hormone Liquid), Spray n Grow Products (Spray n Grow and Coco-Wet), SuperThrive (Multi Nutrient),GrowMore® 5-50-17 Hawaiian Bud & Bloom (General Blooming Fertilizer), Epsom Salt (during signs of yellow plumeria leaves) and Honey (it is a great natural antibacterial that is used in the rooting process).

    PACIFIC PLUMERIA:

    Many will bloom before developing leaves and others will not. Once the leaf growth has developed, the summer regimen of care can be followed. However, in order to discourage excessive stem elongation and to promote flowering, fertilizers low in nitrogen and semi-high in phosphorous are recommended. Once again, 16-16-16, 15-30-15, 4-26-26, and 6-30-30 are excellent choices. Keep a Plumeria healthy by feeding once a month and by watering as necessary.

    South Coast Plumeria Society:

    We can safely say that all we plumerias enthusiasts are out to get those beautiful blooms! Besides ample sunlight, Plumerias require consistent fertilizing.
    Fertilizers usually contain the primary nutrients: nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. They should also contain secondary nutrients, which are calcium, magnesium, and sulfur. To complete the mix, fertilizers should contain the micronutrients iron, zinc, manganese, copper, molybdenum, boron, and cobalt.
    Plumerias usually like low nitrogen, high phosphorus, and high potassium with all the secondaries and micronutrients. Nitrogen promotes growth and foliage development. Phosphorous promotes blooms, reproductive activity, and root development. Potassium helps with overall vigor, branch thickness, and resistance to insects and pathogens
    .
    Jim Little's book Growing Plumerias in Hawaii:

    "In discussing the topic of fertilizer it is important to distinguish the differences between trees that are growing in the ground from those that are growing in pots. While each has different requirements, one of the best things about Plumeria and fertilizers is they will tolerate any type of fertilizer but they have been proven to produce more and bigger blooms using a high phosphorous content such as a 10-30-10 or similar ratio, depending on the manufacturer. For tropical and subtropical FLOWERING trees and plants growing in the soil, many commercial growers use NPK 20-20-20 granular, liquid feed or both. For potted plants, a recommended blend is Osmocote 14-14-14, a time release that lasts for approximately 3 months. Osmocote 18-6-12, also a time release fertilizer will work for about 6 months and is used by plumeria growers seeking a faster than normal growth rate."

    Tropical Plumeria:

    Before planting, make sure your soil is rich and organic. You can add manure or compost to ensure adequate nutrients in the soil. Once planted, you will need to fertilize your plants quarterly. For large, beautifully colored blooms, choose a fertilizer that is heavy in phosphorous. This is the second number you see on the label of plant fertilizers. When in doubt, try to find a product listing Plumeria on the label.

    Floridaplumeria.com:

    As mentioned before plumeria are heavy feeders. However, in order to discourage excessive stem elongation and to promote flowering, fertilizers low in nitrogen and high in phosphorous are, once again, recommended. Keep a plumeria healthy by feeding once or twice a month, and watering as necessary. The recommended foods can be sprinkled directly on the soil and then watered in. Consider using two tablespoons per five gallon pot per month

    plumeria101.com:

    When fertilizing Plumeria you should use a high Phosphate fertilizer (middle number), like Peters "Super Blossom Booster 10-50-10". If you use a fertilizer high in Nitrogen then you will make a healthy but tall and leggy plumeria. Plumeria in general only branch when they bloom, therefore you must use a fertilizer that will promote the most blooms. Which in turn makes the most branches. If you find a Plumeria full of branches, then you'll know it's been a good bloomer.

    The Handbook on Plumeria Culture by Richard and Mary Helen Eggenberger:

    "There are however, certain nutrient combinations and fertilizing principles that almost always produce the desired results. Plumerias thrive best with a fertilizer low in nitrogen and high in phosphorous., with ample potash and balanced trace elements, especially iron and magnesium which helps prevent chlorosis and leaf burn respectively. Nitrogen is necessary to promote overall plant development including healthy stems and foliage, but too much nitrogen will promote vegetative growth at the expense of flowering."
    It goes on to state the benefits of Epsom salts to promote green leaves and lower soil PH if it is too high and also state time release fertilizers are mostly balanced at 13-13-13 or 18-6-12 and not suitable for Plumeria due to their high nitrogen levels.

    So.... better start emailing and calling, tell them how wrong they are. Have CEO Dave call them too. I'm sure they will immediately change what they have done for years because a CEO and 1 poster on GW said so. /s

    Lantana is a FL native. It attracts butterflies and is a non stop bloomer. Since I started using Dyna-Gro FOLIAGE PRO formula a couple of months ago it stopped blooming and got so lush and scraggly I had to cut it back.It regrew still no blooms. I stopped using FP and went back to GROW and now it's blooming like crazy again, is more compact and full like it used to be and the butterflies are back.

    Al, we disagree, and we are done.

    Edited...removed rest of post and emailed it.... will perhaps post it later.

    This post was edited by powderpuff on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 3:28

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I posted one private e-mail from Dave; however, Dave was aware that I was working in a forum setting and would be using what he said to show you can't always believe what you read. That would be the quote about nutrient ratios. The quote about pH/Pro-TeKt on another thread was gleaned from one of his offerings on another forum site where our paths sometimes cross. You assume he might mind if I quote him - I know he doesn't. He's as interested in seeing growers get what they need to make informed decisions as I am.

    I find it interesting that you thought you occupied the high ground and were more than ready to quote advice from one of Dave's employees when it seemed to suit your immediate need to refute what I said, but are instantly ready to refute in total the CEO of the company as soon as you learned what he said doesn't mesh with that need.

    Here are a few excerpts from what many consider the bible on container growing, written by Dr. Carl Whitcomb, PhD. They can be found in the 'key points' section at the beginning of chapter 9 in his offering "Plant Production in Containers II".

    2) When other factors that can influence growth are not limiting, it is the combination and interaction [the term 'interaction' refers to antagonistic deficiencies and toxicities] of the 12 nutrient elements that are responsible for energy production and growth in plants.

    3) The more precisely the 12 essential nutrient elements are synchronized relative to plant needs, the more rapid growth occurs.

    4) Excess of ANY [my emphasis] nutrient element, especially nitrogen, IS [my emphasis] as undesirable as a deficiency. [So according to another PhD, excess P in the soil solution IS undesirable. This is commonly repeated in virtually every meaningful text on growing plants in containers, and is a universally accepted extension of Liebig's Law of the Minimum.]

    5) When temperature, growth medium, moisture, drainage and oxygen to the roots and other factors are optimum or at least reasonable, all or nearly all plants grow best with the same proportion of nutrients. Plants grow at different rates, but the rate of uptake and utilization of the 12 essential nutrients is the same.

    9) In containers, the opportunity exists to control all 12 nutrient elements. If you do well, plant growth is excellent. If you do poorly, plant growth is poor and often you get to try again.

    Immediately following the key points is a discussion, the lead-in to which is the question "Do Plants Vary in Nutrient Requirements or are Needs Similar? He gets into the meat of the question in the second paragraph: There are huge differences in tolerance [emphasis in the original] among species relative to many things, including deficiencies or or extremes of any one or large groups of essential nutrient elements as well as nonessential elements. On the other hand, most, if not all species of plants grow best with the same levels and PROPORTIONS [my emphasis] of essential nutrients. How can I make this statement? Based on 40 years of study and research this conclusion is firmly supported. Here are but a few of the studies and experiences that support my position [and he goes on to substantiate].

    Page 214: "...... yet improved growth [using Micromax] and quality of thousands of species in an array of climates around the globe strongly supports the hypothesis that most, if not all, plants share a common metabolism and requirement for nutrients [my emphasis]. But, early-on there was a time when this conclusion was in question, For example, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, study after study showed that plants in containers grew best when the mix was amended with 3-4 lbs of single superphosphate, 0-20-0. Osmocote formulations like 18-6-12 [3:1:2 ratio] appeared not to provide sufficient phosphorous. This was also at a time when it was commonly touted that high phosphorous increased flowering (which is now known to be false) [direct quote - my emphasis]. A trip to Australia to work with container nurseries brought the entire phosphorous issue into question. .......

    The question of [ideal] phosphorous level for optimum growth occurred about the same time the Micromax formula was introduced. The way to answer the question was to set up experiments and "ask the plants". The results were both fascinating and revealing. When no Micromax was added to the growth medium, plants grew best with 3-4 pounds of super single phosphate/ cu yd, as had previously been observed. On the other hand, when Micromax was added at a rate of 1.5 pounds/ cu yd, there was no benefit to adding the phosphorous beyond the level present in Osmocote with a 3:1:2 NPK ratio [my emphasis], such as when 15 lbs of 17-7-12 was used. Why? Single super phosphate undergoes little refining during production and contains a substantial quantity of micronutrients. My students and I had fallen for the obvious: that plant growth response to adding 3-4 lbs of single superphosphate was due to the phosphorous, whereas in reality it was due to micronutrient impurities. When Micromax was added to the mix, there was no need for, or benefit from, adding super phosphate. Another clue was the fact that single super phosphate, 0-20-0, which has little refining, had produced benefits, where triple superphosphate, 0-46-0, that was more refined and concentrated, did not."

    In the past, tolerance has frequently been confused with requirement. ....... Requirement for optimum growth was the same, but tolerance for extremes was very different.[his emphasis]

    You criticized, ""Dave Neal CEO of Dyna Gro said in an email, according to you, Al, that:"

    "There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important."

    SOME evidence but environmental factors are PROBABLY more important.

    Can't get much more iffy than that.""

    You tip your hand to the fact you don't understand that Dave refers to day length [more specifically, night length] as the environmental factor probably most responsible for bloom induction. Please explain what is iffy about photoperiod.

    It doesn't matter to me what you or anyone uses on their plants, and some of the high P formulations that aren't crazy out of balance like 1:1:1 ratios (20-20-20) and 2:3:2 ratios (10-15-10) may not cause significant symptoms. If you're interested in seeing how much your plants will tolerate, then by all means - go for as much P as you can fit into a box; but, if you're looking to set your plant down in a containerized root environment that provides the ideal macronutrient ratio for best plant growth/vitality, you'll be looking at those fertilizers with a macronutrient ratio of 3:1:2, or extremely close to that. Before you can hope to put together a program that works to specifically manipulate plants to bloom better, you need to have at least a reasonable understanding of how plant nutrition works ..... or you're not even in the game. Reducing the ACTUAL amount of N supplied is by far the best nutritional starting point for more blooms, and there are precious few actually skilled enough to set their plants on a course that rides the edge of a N deficiency, so the next best thing is to shoot for optimal plant health. I'm certain that if container gardeners had the ability to effectively focus on maximizing vitality (health), the number of blooms would be superior to those of the grower who thinks P in excess is just the ticket. It makes absolutely no sense.

    What it boils down to is this: There are no plants that use more P than N. To be on the safe side, let me phrase that as, 'there are no plants we might commonly grow in a container that use more P than N'. Are there? Name one? If not, there is no scientific justification for providing any plant with several times the amount of P it can use. We KNOW that an excess of anything soluble in the soil solution is a negative situation with only the potential to limit.

    Professor Tom Ericsson has a PhD in Botany; he is an Associate Professor in Ecophysiology, and works as a teacher, researcher, and consultant in the field of plant nutrition at Movium.

    “All plants need the same nutrients in the same proportions; therefore, specialty fertilizer products aren’t necessary”.

    "They all want the same nutrients served in the same proportions at an even rate. The only difference is the amount they want, or rather how fast the rate of delivery should be. Fast growing plants need more nutrients than slow growing ones, but still at the same proportions."
    "Tom Ericsson has analyzed plant tissues in a large number of plants, both annuals and perennials. Plants growing on poor soils, as well as plants growing on soils with both high and low pH values, have been used. Root, stem and leaf tissue was analyzed.
    The analysis shows that nutrient contents vary greatly between different plants. However, the proportions remained remarkably similar."

    Let me know if you want the entire piece posted so you can see I'm not cherry-picking the quotes.

    We obviously travel in different reading circles. No matter how many sources you find that suggest high-P fertilizers are appropriate for some plants, the fact remains that you are quoting and depending on the opinions of growers who would have been the students of the degreed sources I'm quoting.

    That you accepted what Dyna-Grow says when it seemed to mesh with your contentions, and rejected the CEO's offerings because they aren't in accord with the contentions you can't support with your own reasoning is an important consideration for those growers who might wonder who to believe. One thing is certain, there isn't anything bad to be said about 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers' effect on a plant's health due to the ratio, but the ratios of excessively, even moderately high-P fertilizers have a host of potential inherent limitations that increase in likelihood and severity as the N:P ratio starts to favor P as the predominant of the 2 elements.

    I would have liked the opportunity to reply to your email, but you have your settings arranged so you're the only voice in the conversation. ;-)

    The sun is shining and my mower senses it's near time for its regular exercise, so I better go attend to its needs. I wish you the best in your growing endeavors. No time to proof, so I hope it's coherent.

    Al

    This post was edited by tapla on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 14:13

  • Monita Johnson
    8 years ago

    Hello Again All,

    Needless to say, my peace lily is coming along great now. Thanks for the informative information that you, Al have passed onto me. I needed that wake up call. Was thinking that I was actually doing my plants (Heart Leaf Philodendron, Golden Pathos and the Peace Lily) some justice by just watering them when the top 1 to 2 inches became dry. Now, I put my order in for the peat moss, sand and perlite along with the foliage pro as well and it will be on it's way very soon. And soon, but slowly, I'll be adding some succulents to my plant collection such as aloe plant, cacti plant and maybe a palm tree of some sort; still researching the trees though.

    I spoke more with grandma and yes, she's getting old now and may even becoming a bit forgetful. I told her some of the things that I have learned from your previous postings and she totally agreed with you. Grandma said "Yes, you have to pay close attention to your plants because they actually do speak to you through their leaves." Yellowing, constant leaf dropping and gnats, and other bugs tell you that your plant is in the struggling stage and ready to go into the kill over stage" as grandma puts it, and she's absolutely correct.

    Al, I asked grandma, do you remember telling me to put some coffee grinds around the bed of my peace lily? She said "Yes, I told you to do this because the coffee grinds act as a bug repellant for the time being, ONLY but that doesn't correct the actual ill of the plant itself." So, grandma has also told me to "Wait until Mid-Spring to the Beginning of Summer to begin cutting back roots (Root Pruning) and repot in same pots after cleaning the posts really good and use new soil." Now grandma says she use to use MG but now she uses FOLIAGE PRO and has been for about three to four years now as someone (One of her Home Health Aids) has told her that they have used it and have had great experience with the fertilizer. No wonder why grandma plants looks so beautiful year after year. I noticed to that she had a spider plant that had grown so very big and had a bunch of babies hanging from it. She had the spider plant for years. I must have been about 35 years old when I first saw the plant in her living room hanging in the window in a pretty hanging pot. I'm now 47 years old. And she claims that she hasn't repotted or potted the spider plant in about 5 years or a little longer. And the plant still looks so vivacious and healthy. She gave the spider babies to her Home Health Aid. I asked grandma, why didn't you give me any? She said "You wasn't interested in plants and it would have been a waste of time." Right again grandma. I wasn't interested in plants at that time.

    Al, now that I'm learning more about plants, I want to help grandma with her plants and share these wonderful growing experiences with her as well. She'll be 92 years old next year, July 4th. Maybe I can surprise her by cutting back all of her plants' roots and repotting or potting up as a birthday gift to her. I'm sure she'll love that.

    I'm still in the learning stages and I will take a lot of the information you've given, to do my very best in caring for "What is best for the plant and not what is convenient for me."

    Have a wonderful Holiday,

    MJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    Hi, MJ. Sorry I didn't see your nice message before the Holiday. Your kind words are much appreciated. I hope your Christmas was a wonderful holiday and that you'll have a great 2016 as well. Say HI to your grandma for me also, and extend the same good wishes to her?

    Take care.

    Al

  • Monita Johnson
    8 years ago

    Hey Al,

    Thanks, I'll be sure to tell geandma your kind words. I'm sure she'll be like, "who in the world is that?" I'll most likely say, "that's my plant expert). Lol.

    Al, once I receive all the materials I purchased, via Internet, such as: sphagnum peat, perlite, pine bark and foliage pro, how do I mix the materials in ratolio to one another to be sure that I have a good draining soil for the plants? Of course I will not be doing any mixing, repotting or potting up until mid- spring or early summer. Oh, and I believe I put an order in for lime; if I'm not mistaken, will I need to use the foliage pro fretilizer once I add lime, or should I hold back the lime and just use the foliage pro? This is for all house plants, and espeacialy my peace lilies.

    Thanks in advance for any recommendations you have to offer.

    Sincerely,


    MJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    The size of the particles a medium is comprised of dictates the ratio that would be most effective. Have you read the thread that explains how water behaves in container media? There ARE recipes in the opening post of that thread, but an understanding of the concept discussed there is much more valuable than the recipes.

    If you're making the 5:1:1 mix, you'll probably want to use dolomitic (garden) lime to adjust pH, even if you're using FP 9-3-6. If you're using the gritty mix, you can skip the lime and use the FP 9-3-6 only for at least 95% of the plants you're likely to grow, and perhaps as many as 99%. I only modify the 9-3-6 for tomatoes and hibiscus. Everything else I grow gets 9-3-6. Nothing I grow in containers gets as much as or more P than N. It's very difficult to justify high-P fertilizers when the average plant uses 6X as much N as P.

    Al

  • Monita Johnson
    8 years ago

    Thanks Al for responding,

    I'm sorry I work night and that's when I can usually respond to posts. I don't and won't expect you to answer until you're up and ready to do so. But I'm an night owl myself.

    So what you're saying is that the bigger the particles in the soil the less water retentive (PWT) in containers the soil will be and aeration, nutrients will be readily available to the plants, am I correct?

    I'm sorry Al, I did read the posts and still dont have a full understanding of how to get rid of the perched water table in container plants, what to actually add, how much of the materials to add for better health of plants etc, etc, etc. But soon I will grasp the concept, eventually. I'm learning and the great thing about me learning how to care for plants properly; I thought would frustrate me, instead it's really fun.

    Al, I will read, re- read again and again until I fully understand and can put all the information together in my brain and actually put this valuable information to great use. I have a little time to work all in; until spring (2016), to grasp the whole concept and use it.

    Thanks again for responding and have a great and productive morning.

    Truly,


    MJ


  • Monita Johnson
    8 years ago

    Hi again Al,

    I apologize if I'm being a bugger boo becsuse I certainly don't mean to be. But I had a question concerning the garden lime (Dolomite). After liming soil consisting of your 5-1-1 gritty mixture, how long should I wait begore putting plants into plant pots? Should I wait at least a week (7 days) or more?

    I read in one of the threads that had to wait at least 6 months but that's only for outside gardening, right? That's where I get a bit confused. I get confused with the processes of how soils are treated when it comes to outside gardening soils in container plantings ( inside gardening) are treated.

    I know that the same basic principal still apply as far as water retention (PWT), space, air and fertilizeing is concerned. And I'm fixing this problem as soon as I receive my materials that I ordered.

    Thanks again in advance, Al. You have really been a blessing. I now call you the plant Gardian Angel. (Smiles).

    Truly,


    MJ

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    8 years ago

    If you're talking about the same material. smaller particles hold more water than larger particles. If you're mixing materials, large particles that are internally porous CAN hold more water than smaller particles that aren't internally porous. E.g., a large sponge holds more water than a jar of marbles equal to the sponge in volume. O/a porosity can be impacted by the internal porosity of the ingredients IF the internal pores in particles are open as opposed to closed. Some material have closed cells in which air is trapped and water cannot move into the internal pores (perlite). Products like Turface have open cells and water can freely move in and out of pores.

    You're best served if you consider container media as being essentially devoid of nutrients, which means you should shoulder responsibility for ensuring your plants get all the nutrients they need to grow normally. The
    goal for fertilizing containerized plants can easily be described. Ideally, we
    would work toward ensuring that all the nutrients plants normally secure from
    the soil are in the soil solution at all times, in the ratio at which the plant
    actually uses the nutrients
    , and at a concentration high enough to ensure no
    deficiencies yet low enough to ensure the plant isn't impeded in its ability to
    take up water and the nutrients dissolved in water. This goal is easily
    achievable using one water soluble synthetic fertilizer. Generally speaking, variation from this stated goal is much more likely to end up as limiting than beneficial. High-P fertilizers (in containers), "tonics and magic elixirs" like Superthrive, VF-11, Spray-N-Grow, have more potential to limit than benefit - or they simply have no potential upside. Adding some extra Mg in the form of Epsom salts is also much more likely to be limiting than a plus.

    Depending on how much moisture is in the soil and the size of the lime particles when you add the lime, the reactive phase might take up to 2 weeks (for container media). I often plant in the 5:1:1 mix same day I made it or next day. The only problem you might see would be a few deformed leaves or some first fruits BER if you're growing things like melons, tomatoes, peppers if you plant before the reactive phase is complete - this, because Ca is necessary in the nutrient stream at ALL times if cells are to form normally.

    The delineation between indoor and outdoor gardening doesn't center on where the pot is located. The delineation is determined by several factors that make container gardening an entirely different animal than growing in the ground. If, on a 1-10 scale you put growing in gardens and beds at 1 and hydroponic growing at 10, conventional container culture is probably at 7 or 8 - much closer to hydroponics than actually growing in the earth. The primary differences center of soil chemistry and physics. Physically, water behaves much differently in the earth than it does in containers, and the chemical difference between mineral soils and container media is much different; so in the end, growing successfully in the earth or in containers requires widely divergent approaches. Many growers cling tightly to the idea that if it's worked in my garden for all these years, it will work in containers, too, only to discover that the reasoning isn't supported by results.

    I'm glad you're having fun - that's important. People are attracted to enthusiasm and determination to take control of one's own growing experience. I just said the very same thing to another grower at the thread I linked you to a few posts upthread.

    Sorry for the tardy reply - a busy time of year. Have a Happy New Year!

    Al

  • Monita Johnson
    8 years ago

    Hi Al, Happy New Year!

    Al, thanks so much. I believe that I will stick to the 5-1-1 mix (NO WORM CASTINGS). I have all of the ingredients now for the 5-1-1 mix and the Foliage Pro fertilizer and will begin making my mix beginning of Spring for all of my indoor/house plants (peace lilies, heart leaf philodendron, golden pathos and spider plants). Everywhere I look via on the Internet, everyone is saying that the 5-1-1 (Al's Mix) is perfect for good drainage and plant's uptake of water, air and available food. And that's exactly what my babies need. And that's what they'll get. I would love to start making the mix now and setting my babies (indoor/house plants) in but I am so afraid to do so. I don't know why but I think it'll hurt them because of the Winter months. I'm going to do the peace lilies (take out of old soil, chop off around 2/3 to 1/2 the root; especially the encircling fat roots and repot in same pot with the 5-1-1 mix and see how the peace lilies respond to the mixture. If I get a GREAT response. I will repot the others in same pot in 5-1-1 mix as well. Or, I may even repot UP to a size larger pot for the others since the other plants has gotten so big and can use a one size BIGGER pot. It sure wouldn't hurt now that the water will drain out much better without leaving that perched water behind.

    Thanks again Al, and it's ok that you didn't respond right away. I know you're very busy and it's the holiday where you're most likely spending time with the loved ones. I just appreciate the fact that you did respond.

    Enjoy your loved ones.

    MJ

0
Sponsored
Grow Landscapes
Average rating: 4.5 out of 5 stars8 Reviews
Planning Your Outdoor Space in Loundon County?