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Does anyone know what happens when...

Posted by jandey Tx8 (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 6, 12 at 13:18

you bury the graft union on an established plumeria?

I've been wondering, too: are plumerias prone to rotting if you bury what would be considered the "root flair" area at the base, since they are almost always grown from rooted cuttings? Do they suffer when replanted deeper than where they were originally rooted? Would additional roots grow out from the area now buried? Am I making any sense?

Any long-time growers out there know?

Thanks!
Jen


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Does anyone know what happens when...

Jen, that's a good question! I often wonder the same thing since I think the grafted portion is an eye sore. I too want to plant it way down. If I can do that then I would not mind getting more grafted plants. Hopefully some experts here can answer that for us.


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I have, on more than one occassion, planted a plumeria deeper than it was originally rooted. The reason usually is that the plant won't stay upright, either not having enough of a root system yet or becoming top heavy and in need of repotting. Sometimes I just don't pay attention when potting them or planting them in the yard.

Not so sure on the graft site.
Tally HO!


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Luc of FC and many others recommend that if you have issues with seeing the graft scare to bury it. There are no issues by burying the graft union.

Cheers


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Yay! Thanks, freak4plumeria!
I just might plant my new Bangkok Fire deeper with the graft below the soil line. :)

-Robert


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Oh yeah!! That's great news! I will need to repot my Charlotte Ebert anyway for the plant is getting way too tall for the 2 gal.

Does anyone know when we can repot our plants? My CE is still blooming, not much but still going. Thanks!


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I repot year round.
Just don't water if they are dormant.
Tally HO!


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Oh ok... I'll repot soon and hide the graft site then. Thanks!


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  • Posted by mksmth oklahoma 7a (My Page) on
    Fri, Jul 6, 12 at 21:32

I see an increase in grafted plumeria sales in the next few days ;)

Mike


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Think I'll wait to do something like that after next years report on how that goes. You all keep us informed ok?

Actually, although I have not yet ordered one, I am anxious to try a grafted one.


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Ok I will report back after I repot my Charlotte Ebert soon. I have to lean it against other pots right now so it doesn't tip over. So might as well experiment it right? :)


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Hi Jen,
fisrt time poster here.
When plumerias root they develop roots mostly around the cambium line, like the 4-weeks old cutting in the first picture. Initially, roots fill the whole perimeter of the cambium line. Rarely plumerias develop roots from the side of the bark during the rooting process.
As plumerias get older, they develop no more roots. Side roots just develop on primary roots and form a bigger rootball. In any case, I have not seen a plumeria ever develop roots from the side of the bark, as the plant gets older. The next two pictures show a two-year old and a seven-year old plumerias. Roots were trimmed back so you can easily see. No roots developed anywhere (bottom or side of the trunk), besides the original roots at the cambium line.
To answer your question, you can plant any plumeria deeper. It will never develop new roots from the side of the bark.
For some reason it only uploaded the last image. How do I post multiple images?


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Hey, guys, thanks for the feedback! I have a couple of very-good looking grafts and a couple of lousy ones. Then there are the tall single-tips I'd like to replant lower.

Citizen, you can just copy and paste the photo code, then hit return, space, and copy and paste the next photo's code and so on.

Good to know about the roots never developing from the side bark. Citizen, your info looks familiar, like the article in the latest PSA newsletter.

I guess it's okay then to bury deeper, that rot won't occur on bark that was previously above ground.


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Hi Jen,
lol, I wrote the PSA article. You got all the information there so I am not going to elaborate.
However, I still cannot post multiple pictures. If I use the internet explorer to copy and paste, the paste button on this site is not active, so I cannot paste it. I can only add pictures through the 'Image file to upload' function of this site, which does one picture at a time. I tried my Mc and when it pastes into this site it adds the file name and not the picture. I do not know what I am doing wrong. What do you use to copy and paste?


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I got some more great info from your article--thank you! Unfortunately, it was too late for those cuttings I have that are angle-cut, lol. Oh, well.

I post all my images using Flickr--you can use Photobucket or any photo hosting site--and there's a share function there that enables you to post as many images as you want in a thread here, independent of the GW function.


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Thanks Jen, tc


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Hey Jen,

Remember the problem i had with my Guillots Sunset? It split on me from the side... here are a few pictures of it then. Now, it is doing just as good as the original pic. I suspect that the split came from when i rooted the cutting and it suffered side burn. It split at the burn and new roots came from the split. thought it would be interesting to some.. I know this is different from any grafted site.. but thought i would show what can happen..

Photobucket
PhotobucketTake care,

Laura


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Laura, that's one of the reasons I wondered about burying deeper, remembering when you first posted that split that grew roots. My GS cutting got sunburn like that, too, btw, but it's clawing so my fingers are crossed. (Thanks, B!)


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Hi Laura,
I am very interested in what happened to your plant. I am doing some work on tricking plumerias to develop roots from the side of the bark. Plumerias cuttings do not naturally develop roots from the side of the bark. By developing roots from the side of the bark, we can anchor the plants better and they will be more vogorous. So far I am able to do this through some special cuts on the side of the bark, just like the picture ( strong roots coming out of the cuts). I plant to write a PSA article on it in the near future.
Your plant looks badly sun burned on the side of the picture view. Is the sunburn all the way around the perimeter or just on one side? Typically plants that get damaged on one side do develop new roots on that side. Half of the roots on one of my plumerias rotted and the plant develop new roots on that side to replace them.

Thanks,
George


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Hi George, I received a plant that was grafted and the root stock had horizontal cuts up the sides with roots growing out of them. It was as if they had used a potato peeler to cut some of the bark in strips. I wish I had thought at the time to take a picture of it. In the future when I repot it I'll have to remember to take a pic. I do remember someone trying that very same thing, but don't remember their results. Peg


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Hi Pcput,
thanks for your input. Were the cuts through the bark reaching the wood? How wide were they? Where did you buy that plumeria from?
My work shows that cutting the bark with a pototoe peeler does not produce roots (see attached picture). As a matter of fact most cuts will not produce roots. It takes special kind of cuts, which meet certain criteria to produce roots. This is why I am so interested and I am asking so many questions.

Thanks,
George


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George, I'll do the best I can to answer your questions. It came from FC this spring and I bought 4 plants and don't remember which one it was. Maybe you could contact Luc and he could tell you if he is doing something to grow more roots. Maybe it was just a freak thing that happened some how since it was only one plant that had them. The cuts appeared to be very shallow just through the bark and in strips less than 1/4" wide. The roots were very fine. If I remember right there were 4 cuts. Now I could kick myself for not taking the pic. Hope that helps some. Peg


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Hi Peg, Thank you so much for the info. It appears that these strips were cut on purpose to enhance rooting. I am doing some experiments with slots also (do not have full results yet). Did the slots looked like the picture below? Also, those fine roots, were they much shorter than the bottom roots (this would mean that they were delayed in developing over the bottom roots)? Also, were they of similar diameter or much thinner than the bottom roots?
Thanks,
George


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George, they looked like that but were cut vertical. The roots were shorter and much thinner than the bottom roots. I don't remember how far up from the bottom they were, but would guess about an inch up. I hope this is helping. Peg


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Hi Peg,
Thak you so much for your help. I also looked at vertical strips. They do develop some roots but they are not as good as some of my other cuts (picture below).

Thanks and tc,
George


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George, did you write "Optimal Cutting Angle for Rooting Plumeria" for PSA May 2012 Plumeria Potpourri issue? I was just reading it on another forum.

Your more than welcome and if I knew which one it was I would be tempted to unpot it to get a pic. Peg


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Hi Peg,
I did write the May article. I also wrote a follow up in the July issue. I also wrote one about callusing cuttings before planting in the March issue.

Regards,
George


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Hi George,

Hi Jen!!!

Im so sorry it has taken me so long to post back to your question. I am at work and i have been on the road, well..actually in the air!! So i can't post or read these forums until i get back into the hotel.

My Guillots Sunset is doing great and i did have other cuttings that did develope sunburn when i was rooting them. They all seemed to do well just like the pictures that i posted. The same tree is looking great and i will take another pic for you when i get home. Probably on Tuesday. I will pull the tree out of the container for you to see. It did have sunburn on one side, but when you look at the pic it looks like the rest of the stem has dried up. I will say that i was amazed at how this tree kept right on going and didnt show any signs of stress.

I remember posting last year and wondering if anyone had seen this happen to their trees.

I would love to read your article. Always interested in reading about our Plumeria.

I hope this helps..

Take care,

Laura


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  • Posted by Tropic_7 9 West Bradenton Flo (My Page) on
    Sun, Jul 8, 12 at 23:43

This whole posting has my attention and I appreciate the photos and study you all are doing! Very interesting!
Thank you, Stuart


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Hey George,

Here are the pics from last year. Guillots Sunset cutting that i rooted in Clear bottles that developed sunburn at the stem. It continued to do well, then i saw the split and the new huge, strong roots coming from the side of the stem.

Summer of 2011

Photobucket


Photobucket

Summer of 2012

I pulled the tree from the container and i know that i need to repot, but i will wait to do this, but i wanted you to see the roots system and see how it is thriving. It appears that the small roots that appeared on the side did take off and from a huge base on that side of the tree. The other side looks the same, but the roots are not as healthy. The overall health of the tree is apparent. It is doing great, but im sure it is screaming for a larger pot. : )

Here they are.. Pics taken a few days ago..

GS

A view of where the roots first appeared..
Photobucket
Photobucket

Photobucket

I will do a full repot on this tree this spring...but if you want me to experiment for you...i wouldnt mine checking where the roots are the healthiest and do some checking for you. I know you are doing this for your article and i dont have any doubt that if i did a full bare root on this baby, it will be fine. Let me know how far you would like me to take this. I find it facinating as well..

Take care Geroge.

Thank you for the nice email too!

Laura


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very interesting topic. Now I want to go check the roots on all the ones around the yard.
George, I am reading all your articles.
Thanks for all the information.
Tally HO!


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Hi Laura,
thanks for posting these pictures.It is very helpful in the work I am doing. What happens plumerias do not naturally develop roots from the side of the bark. The only time they do develop roots from the side of the bark is when there is some kind of injury to the bark or wood underneath. In the third article I sent you, there is an example where a few large roots on a plumeria rotted and new roots developed. New roots are always associated with growth of new wood at the cambium line, which wood anchors them. This appears to be the case with your plant. The sunburn bark is lifted by the growing new wood underneath.This is exactly what I am trying to accomplish in my current project. Roots from the side of the bark will anchor the plant better and make it more vigorous. Your plant has a full set of roots around the perimeter of the cambium line at the bottom plus those roots from the side. This is why it is doing so well, even though one side is sunburned. I will be interested to see the whole root system next spring. Just use a water hose to wash the dirt away and repot it afterwards. It won't hurt the plant.
Here is a picture of a graft that developed a full set of roots in mid air. Doves were landing on it (plant next to my bird feeder) and it tilted. The top part fused to the rootstock whereas the bottom part develop roots. So developing vigorous roots from the side of plumerias is very possible. I am having good sucess so far in developing roots from the side of the bark. I just need to understand it better before I write an article. My next few articles will be about grafting anyway, so I can wait till the springtime to get your pictures. I really appreciate your help.

I notice that you use normal plastic pots for your plumerias. I have found that plumerias do a lot better in squat pots (short and wide). For example, a 5-gallon normal pot is 12" wide by 11" tall, whereas a squat 5-gallon pot is 14" wide by 10" tall. You see the roots of plumerias come around the perimeter of the cambium line (just on a single plane) and point outward. From there they go up and down in the soil. Plumerias like the wider pots, where the roots spread out better.
tc,
George


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I love the education we get on this forum. There is always some new bit of knowledge to learn every day. Fabulous information and pics. Clara


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let`s see if this pic works.
George, this is a plant I picked up yesterday. Larry wasnT sure if it as a cutting or a seedling. I`ll get some better pics tomorrow of the roots.
Tally HO!


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Hi Beachplant,
thanks for the interesting picture. It is definately a cutting. Seedlings develop a long tap root at the bottom. It appears that this cutting was rooted in the horizontal position. Its main trunk turned up, almost at 90 degrees to the bottom part, and the bottom of the cuttings has only a couple of roots. All the roots are at the bottom of the horizontal section that was burried or was touching the rooting medium. It will be interesting what would happen longer term. That will determine if it is desirable to root a cutting like this or not. Where did you get this?
Regards,
george


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Yes, roots can form all along stems and trunks provided the wound (man-made or nature-made) is deep enough. This is why we can air-layer them. Sometimes it happens unintentionally.

I once watered my plants in the garage too much over winter. They pretty much rotted from just below the soil line and on down, however by mid-summer most had re-rooted themselves just above the rot line.


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George, I got this from Larry in LaPorte. His gardening style is like mine, stick cuttings in the closest pot. He has cuttings stuck everywhere, this was in a pot in one of his greenhouses. He pulled it out a day or 2 ago when seperating plants, who knows how long it had been on it`s side. He didn`t know what it was. He had it sitting in a barrel of water yesterday since he hadn`t gotten around to planting it.
I have to go find a short squat pot for this one, it won`t fit in any of the empty pots I have.
Tally HO!


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Dave_in_Nova,
do not ever water plumerias in winter storage. The roots will rot every time. When plumerias are dormant they do not need water. Once I left a plumeria for two full years in the garage without a drop of water. Not only it survived, in the springtime it bloomed in the garage!

Beecplant,
thanks for the info. I do not know of anybody who roots cuttings in the horizontal position. I wonder if Larry knows something we do not know. I might experiment with it.
tc,
George


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I believe Jim little talks about that kind of rooting larger cuttings very briefly in his book.


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George, I have a feeling this one just fell over and got overlooked. He has a tendency to stick things wherever he finds an empty spot and they are jumbled about.

I might try putting one horizontal, there is big chunk of something in the backyard the dogs knocked off one of the plumerias.
Tally HO!


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Beachplant,
I hope it works for you. Then you can name the method "gone to the dogs" lol
George


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See this is a perfect example why I love this forum! I learn so much here. Always something new to learn. Everyone shares experiences. I think we should all have a plumeria reunion lol


Jackie


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George, Here's another one for you. I just got this plant (grafted) from FC. I see no damage at all where the root is coming out of the bark. Interesting !!! Got to get a better camera. Peg

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket


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Thanks Peg,
as I said in my article, occassionally plumerias will pop a root from the side of the bark during the rooting process. This is however a very rare even. Most plumerias do not develop any roots from the side of the bark during the rooting process. In addition, as they grow older, none ever develops roots from the side of the bark. What I am trying to acheive in my current project is not just to make a root or two from the side of the bark but rather to develop two to four times the number of roots that are at the botttom. This way, the plumeria plant will be anchored very well and will be very vigorous.
George


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Laura, I can't get over how much Guillot's roots grew over one season. Great shots you got of it. My sunburned one is pushing leaves now so I guess all is not lost. Must be a vigorous variety.

Peg, I think if you pull your camera back a few inches it'll focus fine on the plant. You got a nice focused shot of the perlite, hehe. That is a very unusual root, like what you see on adeniums.


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Thanks Jen. I think that was the problem it wouldn't focus on the cutting. I have trouble holding still too especially when I'm holding the cutting too. It usually looks better if I cut off the flash and then I have to hold the camera still longer. I think I may need to practice more too. :) Peg


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Bump....

This is for George that is writing his article.

George, i don't have the orginial pics in my files, i just have them in Photobucket.. I see the other pics that you refered to in your email. I did replant the GS deeper after i pulled it from the original pot. This summer, i will rootprune this one and i will add these pics to this thread.

I wish i had the original pics for your article, but if you click on the pics, it will take you to the photo in my photobucket which i have open... you can use the codes to copy.

Hope this helps...

Laura


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Aloha out there...I have a friend in his 80s who has been doing plumeria for a few years now (21) and he has given me many large cuttings and a few small. He has had me take a razor blade (cleaned) and ever so gently (no white coming out) lightly score the bottom of the cutting for 2 inches or so before I dip it in root tone (vertically up and down the stalk) He swears that roots will come out often thru these tiny cuts/scores....I have never pulled up the cutting though to see but he has....fascinating stuff....Aloha, roxanne


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By coincidence, today I potted up a Madam Poni cutting I got from MPG last September. I noticed that most of the roots seemed to come from a ring an inch or so above the end of the cutting. A lot of the roots broke off, but in this pic, you can make out one root coming from the bottom of the cutting cambium line at about the 10 o'clock position, while the majority of the roots ring the cutting emerging from the bark above the end. Very strange.

 photo IMG_1472_zps9c916c42.jpg


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Hey Delton,
it appears that the bottom section rotted and roots came out at the perimeter of healthy bark. Cut into the bottom surface and see if it is dead.

George


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Thanks George, I've already potted it up, That sounds like what happened though. When I look at the other pictures I took of it, it does appear that the bottom is rotted. Hopefully that won't cause a problem later on, but time will tell. Will definitely keep an eye on it for rot from now on.


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