I asked a good plumie friend of mine and she swears by Foliage Pro..she said her plumeria are blooming like crazy!

I like FP and use it often, but I am wondering what others use here?

Thanks,
Andrew

I use Foliage pro also, but I also use it for all my potted stuff, citrus, bananas, mango, etc. I dont have enough plumeria experience to say if it aids in producing more blooms or not. Ive read some still swear that a high P helps but then others say a lower amount of given N is better.

Mike

New studies have shown that high middle number does not do anything because the plant cannot absorb all that phosporous. To me the most important number is the N number because it controls the vigor of the plant. I use about 10-12N in the first fertilizing about early April. I use 8-10N is the second fertilizing around mid June. I use 5N in the third fertilizing around early August. I never fertilize in September. I did once fertilize some newly rooted cuttings in September and I lost half of them to black tip in winter storage(lost the whole plant!).
I believe using about 12-24-12 for first, 8-10-10 for second, and 5-10-10 for third fertilizing is ideal.
George

your aztec is amazing. My hope is to have one that size and shape. I have the pots just need the plants to grow, LOL.

Correct me if Im wrong but your in South Texas, right? Have you ever had to move it in for protection. If so I bet that was/is a chore.

mike

Citizen_Insane : can you post a photo of your dolly and how you move your really big plants??

I think that readers should look at the thought that your tree has never been repotted as something to be avoided if possible, and not embraced as a standard MO unless they are willing to accept the limitations imposed by tight roots. Even potting up is very limited in its ability to return a tree to something closer to its genetic potential in growth and vitality.

About fertilizers:
The numbers on the fertilizer package mean nothing, insofar as how much N you are giving the plant. All they tell you is how much N you deliver in relation to the other nutrients the fertilizer happens to include. For instance, if you had 2 soluble fertilizers, 20-20-20 and 10-10-10, if you follow the instructions on the container you will be delivering exactly the same amount of N in either case. The reason is, you will be instructed to add twice the amount of 10-10-10 as 20-20-20, ending up with a solution of the same strength. Miracle-Gro makes 24-8-16 and 12-4-8, both fertilizers in a 3:1:2 RATIO. You'll use twice as much 12-4-8 as 24-8-16, but you'll have the same strength solution in the end. So it's NOT the numbers on the package that determines how much N a plants gets, it's the actions of the grower - how strong the solution and how often the application. YOU control the amount of fertilizer a plant gets, not the numbers on the package - they only control the RATIO.

For containerized plants, it's very difficult to make a reasoned case for using a fertilizer with the middle number (Phosphorous - P) equal to or larger than the first or last number (Nitrogen/Potassium - N & K) because plants use about 6x as much N as P and 3.75x as much K as P. After all the factoring is done for the fact that P %s are actually reported as P2O5 and K as K2O instead of actual P and K content, we learn that fertilizers in a 3:1:2 ratio like Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 or the common 24-8-16 and 12-4-8, actually supply nutrients in almost exactly the same ratio as the average of all plants ..... and the variation in the ratio in which plants use nutrients is small. What varies most is the VOLUME of nutrients used, rather than the ratio. There are few exceptions.

I wrote something a while back about high-P fertilizers - I'll post it to this forum - easier and more conspicuous to the group, perhaps, than trying to explain it here.

Again, my apologies to George for the critique, but I thought the forum might benefit from the observations. I beg a pardon. Take care!

Al

Plumeria dont back bud and only grow from the tips or cuts, right?

Mike

Also, plumerias here in the Houston area only grow at the tips. They do not produce branches anywhere else unless they are pruned back. Pruning them back produces an ugly tree for a few years.

There is no way I am going to atempt to re-pot this tree. It litterally weighs a ton. I cannot lift it up. I have had some back problems and there is absolutly no reason to do it. I am happy with its shape and blooming habit. Now, if it was not blooming much because it was root bound that will be a different story.
tc,
George

Thanks Andrew for a great thread!!!

I also like the Foliage Pro and I also use the Pro TeKt when i do fertilize my Plumeria. The combination of these work well together and i also like the idea that Foliage Pro has all of the essential nutrients in it already, so i dont have to add anything to my mix and this saves me time when watering around 90 trees.. :) I fertilize my trees every 10 days in the growing season and will back off in the fall, however.. i still give them a diluted amount during this time. Last winter when they were growing under my T-5 lights, i reduced the amounts to 1/4 of the strength while inside the house. The dormant trees that were inside the backroom were watered once a month and that was limited as to how large of the container. I understand some do not water while their trees are dormant, but i have always given my trees just a drink every month while sleeping for the winter (five gallon pot 1 cup or so in the winter) I also will add just a little Foliage Pro to this and have done this so for the past two winters. They have thrived in the last several years with this method and i just wanted to share some of the things that I do here in Virginia.

It is very interesting to hear what other like to use and why.

We all learn from each other and i always leave these forums with more information and it make me even more encouraged to learn more from all of you!

Thank you George for sharing the reasearch that you provide. I really enjoyed the articles on cuttings!

Al.. Thank you for all of information you share. It is so helpful to us and we all have learned so much from you.
Especially about soils and nutrition on our trees and plants. I am just amazed at how much you contribute to all of the forums. Thank you for takng the time to share..

We all like to understand the reasons for what we do ... I have more inflos this year and i really attribute this to a good feeding system as well as having all of the other neccessary requirements taken care of.

Water
Fertilizer
Fast Draining mix
Plenty of sunshine
Letting them grow and not messing with them to much!!! : )
(not poking around looking for roots, etc... "No mother hens!!" : )

Thank you all for the great information.

Dave, I also use a Dolly for some of my Palms in containers. It is similar to George's but isnt as nice. That one looks like a very study lift!! Good job on that one George.. If i didnt see the handle, i would think it was part of a fork lift!!! :) i bet it works great. I will remember to keep clear of the pool! That must have been a mess..

My Plumeria stay in Five gallon containers because i wont let them get any larger .. Your Miami Rose that you gave me (The Monster) will be root pruned in the spring. I potted her up when i brought it home last year and she is doing great. The first inflo from this spring is still blooming and i am just amazed. I have a second inflo from another branch and i cant wait to see this one get started. Your tree is the tree that i did my cutting experiment on using two different mixes. I was quite amazed at the finding from these same cuttings and i was amazed at the size of the roots in the Gritty mix verses the standard 1/2 cactus 1/2 perlite. ALways fun to see and experiment..

Love it!!

Kathy...great info on your Dolly! Thanks for the link!

Have a great day everyone

Laura

And how on earth are you getting all your other plants blooming so richly, especially the bougainvillea? (I'm still mystified by bougainvillea after several years of trying to grow it.) You clearly take wonderful care of your garden.

Jen

I don't mean to hijack the topic or anything, but I did notice another Oklahoma grower in the thread and I was wondering how much sun you give them in this 100-105 degree heat. I have a fairly new rooted cutting that I order and I am paranoid about watering too much and getting trunk rot, so I haven't been watering until it has completely dried out. The other day I noticed a little bit of wrinkling on the trunk. I don't know if it's still too much water, not enough water. Maybe too much sun and not enough shade. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

I have assumed that this is a pretty permanent situation and that hopefully one would have decades of enjoyment out of an installation like this. In reality, what could a person actually do? Maybe dig around the perimeter of the pot or something?

I have never seen Plumeria Rubra grow from anything other than the growth tips, even in native areas. I agree 100% on your pruning observations... I've seen trees that are have been heavily pruned several times and the tree does not wear this well. Eventually you've got huge, gnarly main branches that sprout out tiny tips.

I would love to compare a 20 year old seedling to a 20 year old cutting-grown tree to see how they differ, but of course even that comparison would have to be taken with a grain of salt since the genetics would always be different.

This particular variety that you see in the pictures I developed myself. It has a very nice color and goes grazy when in bloom. I named it after my wife. It is called Frances. I gave some plants to friends with little gardening experience. They love it. The more they neglect it, the more it blooms! lol
tc,
George
P.S. I will post some pictures of my yard later

glad to see you here. Im from Tulsa. Our group of Okies is getting bigger by the month :)

My 2 year old trees are getting sun from rise to set. they are in 5 gallon containers and sunk into the ground. All newly rooted ones I got this year are getting sun from rise to set, however I did make a shade cloth that gives them some shade during the midday. Im having to water just about everyday but my soil mix is very free draining. In this heat and with our prevailing winds its pretty hard to overwater. I also mist mine every morning. I fertilize once a week during the summer with Foliage pro at about 1/2 the recommended rate into the soil.Its has everything plants need so It makes life easy. Ill also foliar spray at the same time. I will stop fertilizing sometime in September. I havent found a dealer in Oklahoma so youll need to order it online. It does last a long time since you are only using 1/4 to 1/2 a teaspoon per use.

Mike

Take good care

Jackie

To both George, Al and anyone with something to add - I'm kind of confused though I guess when it comes to the root bound thing though - I've always been told it's not a good thing for plants and also usually see reduced performance on a root bound plant. Is the abundant blooming due to the fact the plant can no longer focus on foliage or root development and therefore puts all of it's energy into blooming? Is this really ok to allow plants to become root bound and leave them that way for X amount of time?

In root bound plants, large perennial roots occupy nearly the entire volume soil of the container, plant vitality declines, soil in the original root-ball compacts - making watering difficult. I have seen soil so hard in old root balls that in some cases a chisel was required to remove it.

In plants that are potted-up, rootage becomes entangled. As root diameters increase, portions of roots constrict flow of water, nutrients, and photosynthate (food) through other roots, much the same as in the case of girdling or encircling roots on trees grown in-ground. The volume of fine feeder roots, the workhorses, to more lignified and perennial roots becomes badly skewed to favor the larger, and practically speaking, useless roots.

Initial symptoms of poor root conditions are progressive diminishing of branch extension we see as slowed growth, and reduced vitality. As rootage becomes continually compressed and restricted, foliage becomes concentrated very close to apices as nutrients are robbed from recently emerged leaves to fuel the growth of only the newest foliage. Branch extension stops and individual branches might die as water/nutrient/photosynthate translocation is further compromised. Foliage quality may not (important to understand) indicate the tree is struggling until the condition is severe, but if you observe your trees carefully, you will find them increasingly unable to cope with stressful conditions - too much/too little water, heat, sun, etc. Trees that are operating under conditions of stress that has progressed to strain, will usually be diagnosed in the end as suffering from attack by insects or other bio-agents (disease) while the underlying cause goes unnoticed. This is due to the reduction in metabolism and the decrease in protective biocompounds linked to metabolic impairment.

I want to mention that I draw distinct delineation between simply potting up and repotting. Potting up temporarily offers room for fine rootage to grow and do the necessary work of water/nutrient uptake, but these new roots soon lignify, while rootage in the old root mass continues to grow and become increasingly restrictive. The larger and larger containers required for potting-up & the difficulty in handling them also makes us increasingly reluctant to undertake even potting-up, let alone undertake the task of repotting/root-pruning which grows increasingly difficult with each up-potting.

So we are clear on terminology, potting up simply involves moving the plant with its root mass and soil intact, or nearly so, to a larger container and filling in around the root/soil mass with additional soil. Repotting, on the other hand, includes the removal of all or part of the soil and the pruning of roots, with an eye to removing the largest roots, as well as those that would be considered defective. Examples are roots that are dead, those growing back toward the center of the root mass, encircling, girdling or j-hooked roots, and otherwise damaged roots.

I often explain the effects of repotting vs potting up like this:

Let's rate growth/vitality potential on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best. We're going to say that trees in containers can only achieve a growth/vitality rating of 9, due to the somewhat limiting effects of container culture. Lets also imagine that for every year a tree goes w/o repotting or potting up, its measure of growth/vitality slips by 1 number, That is to say you pot a tree and the first year it grows at a level of 9, the next year, an 8, the next year a 7. Lets also imagine we're going to go 3 years between repotting or potting up.

Here's a fast forward example of what happens to the tree you repot/root prune:
year 1: 9
year 2: 8
year 3: 7
repot
year 1: 9
year 2: 8
year 3: 7
repot
year 1: 9
year 2: 8
year 3: 7
You can see that a full repotting and root pruning returns the plant to its full potential within the limits of other cultural influences for as long as you care to repot/root prune.

Looking now at how woody plants respond to only potting up:
year 1: 9
year 2: 8
year 3: 7
pot up
year 1: 8
year 2: 7
year 3: 6
pot up
year 1: 7
year 2: 6
year 3: 5
pot up
year 1: 6
year 2: 5
year 3: 4
pot up
year 1: 5
year 2: 4
year 3: 3
pot up
year 1: 4
year 2: 3
year 3: 2
pot up
year 1: 3
year 2: 2
year 3: 1

This is a fairly accurate illustration of the influence tight roots have on a woody plant's growth/vitality. You might think of it for a moment in the context of the longevity of bonsai trees vs the life expectancy of most trees grown as houseplants, the difference between 4 years and 400 years, lying primarily in how the roots are treated.

Nurserymen know that the growth/vitality of a plant left to become root bound to the point that the root/soil mass can be lifted from the pot intact will be permanently affected. Even if that plant is planted out, it will suffer the effects of the constriction in the original root mass unless it's corrected at planting time.

It's commonly repeated that (name a plant) likes to be grown root bound. It doesn't - no plant likes root constriction. WE might like it because it serves as a tool to bend the plant to our will in particular cases, but it's stressful. Stress always leads to strain if uncorrected and strain to death if uncorrected. It may take a while, but the progression is only reversible by correcting the offending root condition.

"Is the abundant blooming due to the fact the plant can no longer focus on foliage or root development and therefore puts all of it's energy into blooming?"

The increase in blooming associated with tight roots is a response to stress triggered by chemical messengers that move throughout the plant. Energy sinks (where the plant allocates its energy) have a pecking order. The priorities in order are flowers, fruit, leaves, stems, roots, so blooms are already a priority. Most stresses, tight roots included, increase the strength of the sexual sinks - flowers fruit. So how much stress do we allow for the sake of a few more blooms. That's an individual decision, but sooner or later it's going to catch up to you. A better way to increase a plants bloom response than tight roots would be nutritional manipulation. You get the same bang and a healthier tree.

"Is it ok to allow plants to become root bound and leave them that way for X amount of time?"

Not cracking wise here, but it's ok to do whatever you want with your plants. We all order our priorities according to our needs and preferences, so I can't answer that question for you. You need to weigh the variables and decide on whether you should or can expend the effort to work on the roots, or tolerate the symptoms of inevitable continual decline. I always repot my favored trees first, in case I run out of opportunity due to time constraints. That way I know my least favored trees will bear the brunt of the effects of my neglect for an extra year. Keep in mind though that in my case, since bonsai is my focus and small soil volumes the norm, I see the effects of tight roots on growth/vitality in FF mode.

Al

Mike, how do you grow a mango in a pot? That is one giant tree, the one down the street was about 20` tall before Ike killed it and the one next to my apt in Hawaii was up to the 12th floor of the building.

Tally HO!

So to get bougs to bloom well, you recommend potbound and fertilizers, also pruning back in Fall or early Spring?

What about letting them dry out for a spell in summer to initiate blooming?

Dave

That's a good point, we can do whatever pleases us to do with the plants, although it's good to know what the ideal is for the plant and then be able to manipulate it how we want. So in that sense, the nutritional manipulation would point back to using something other than, say, the Foliage Pro to promote greater blooming? And if so, what would you recommend?

George, those bougainvillea are incredibly beautiful!!!

I used to grow bougainvillas in 25 gallon pots. In the springtime they grew branches as much as 15' long, with lots of leaves and no flowers. I planted a bougainvilla in a flowebed with citrus, where it was getting too much nitrogen, and it towered 10' above the fence. It never did make a single bloom.

The best bougainvillas I have seen are in rocky Greek islands. They grow in cracks in the rock with little soil and little water (does not rain in the summer) and they make huge spreads and bloom like you have never seen. Here is an example in the picture below.You thing anybody ever fertilizes this plant?

When bougainvillas bloom they make flowers on little branches and not on strong new growth (what I call water suckers). Just like in the picture below in a Greek Village on the mountains.

Here is a picture of the bougainvilla I showed blooming earlier, after it has finished blooming.

Now, here it is blooming. Notice how many blooms all these little branches have on them.

Here is a vigourous branch, even with a root bound bougainvilla. This branch will make a few flowers at the tip and that is it. You do not want bougainvillas to grow like this. That is why they do best when root bound!!!

You cannot look at things as black and white and say root bound plants are bad. Everything is relative.
tc,
George

Another key to fertilizing is timing. I fertilize mine right after flowering. This induces new growth and they will flower again shortly. Just use a low nitrogen fertilizer to avoid too vigorous growth.
With respect to the Medina product, I heard some good things about it from other plumeria growers. I have no experience with it. I use mostly granular fertilizers.
tc,
George

I have collected plants from the wild that grow in crevices and cracks or duff in a small depression in the rock. I have a black hills spruce that has a trunk thickness of only about 1.5", and the forester that collected it (does timber surveys for the dept of the interior) from a crevice estimates it's age to be in excess of 300 years old.

I repotted 2 bougainvillea this summer that were rootbound. In both, growth was virtually nonexistent because they were badly rootbound. By chance, both were given to me by 2 former members of our bonsai club who were unable to care for them properly - one because of old age, the other time constraints. After repotting, the plants took off and have grown more in the last week than during the entire previous growth cycle.

I've seen the same response in literally thousands of plants I've repotted, some in containers as large as 50 gallons. There is nothing other than anecdote that would cause anyone to believe that plumeria or bougainvillea are immune to the effects of tight roots. Nurserymen make it a point to pot up plants before the root/soil mass can be lifted from the can intact because of the ill effects of tight roots on growth, vitality, and ultimately their bottom line.

I was cautious to allow that the stress of tight roots can induce more abundant blooming to a point; but while this makes the grower happy, it is actually the plants unhappy response. There is a clear distinction in those perspectives, and looking at blooms as a sign of a plant's state of health is a mistake. Plants will bloom as long as they have enough energy to sustain themselves. Growth is the more realistic measure of a plants vitality, and by growth I mean the increase in a plant's dry mass, not branch extension or the appearance of new growth that comes as a result of the plant robbing nutrients from older foliage. Simply put, growth wanes as root constriction increases - vitality accompanying it. There is no getting away from that fact, and simply saying it isn't so doesn't make it so.

In order for a plant in a large pot to not suffer the effects of tight roots, you would have to be saying either that A) plants in large pots don't get root bound, or B) being root bound in a large pot has no effect on the plant. I can't imagine how either argument can be supported, and can't envision another.

I explained WHY being rootbound impacts growth and vitality, but essentially you said you disagree, but not specifically what you disagree with. Maybe we can work this out if you'd like to be specific. If you do decide to elaborate, please explain what leads you to believe "...the relative size of the pot makes all the difference in the world." My considerable experience repotting large plants is very different, and I can explain clearly why it's different.

I'm not trying to change your mind, but for others following along, I'd hate for them to get the impression that any (species of) plant in any size pot is immune to the effects of root congestion. W/o question, plumeria, bougainvillea, oak trees and petunias all respond in predictable fashion to root congestion.

Take care.

Al

Not only that, they do not flower very well on the thin new branches. They flower much better on slow growing thick branches. Look at the two branches that flowered how little the flowers are and how long and how fast the split new shoots grew.

I am afraid if I prune back the tree, prune the roots and re-pot it, I will ruin that tree. As it is, it blooms nicely every year, the blooms are normal size, and it does not grow a lot. Why would I want take a chance to ruin a good looking tree based on a theory about root bounding? It makes no sense to me.

By the way, plumerias in the Houston area do not grow like they grow in the tropics. Here is a plumeria in a coastal town in the island of Cyprus. Look at how full it is. You will never see plumerias looking like that in Houston. Here, because of the heat and humidity plumerias grow tall and narrow and they are not very full. My Atzec Gold is a good looking tree by Houston standards. By the way that's my wife and I in the picture.

With respect to bougainvillas, I have shown you pictures of what they look like blooming and after blooming. You are telling me my plants are unhealthy and do not perfom up to their full potential because they are root bound. You grow bougainvillas. Please post some pictures of what healthy bougainvillas look like and how they bloom. That is the only way you are going o convince me your way is better.

tc bud,
George

My point is simple - your tree's health and growth rate would benefit from a full repot - nothing more than that. I never commented, to my recollection, about your boughies, other than to point to the fact they respond in kind to root congestion. That you don't want to repot, can't repot, don't want the tree to grow, don't want to ruin the looks of the tree are all personal decisions that have no bearing on my contention. I'm not trying to talk you into anything or convince you of anything.

The purpose of my comment was far removed from any intent to diminish you. I simply thought it was an opportunity to make a point the forum could benefit from. As it happened, it's turned into a significant debate, which I'm fine with - I have no problem presenting my case and letting others decide.

The fact is, the growth rate and vitality of your tree is being negatively affected by the condition of the roots, and decline will accelerate as the congestion increases. Period. What you do about that doesn't burden me, but it would be nice if others came away with the idea that root congestion is not a good thing for any plant, even if it DOES maker them bloom better. Good for the grower - perhaps, good for the plant - NO.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be willing to allow a certain level of root congestion if our plant responds to the stress of tight roots by producing more blooms, but the health of the plant is an extremely important consideration. The greater the stress you subject your plants to, the greater the likelihood that disease or insect infestations will add to the toll, and the greater the reduction in growth rate. In so many cases, I get a plant making its last circle of the drain, accompanied by the question, "What can I do to bring this plant back to how it looked when I bought it?" or similar. Almost all have badly congested or rotted roots.

You either believe me or you don't. Even if I didn't grow plumeria or boughies .... you don't need to be the bus driver to know what makes the wheels go round and round. And I'm really not interested in convincing you of anything (not being snotty). What I'm interested in is making sure other forum members get information they can rely on.

To wit, A) tight roots affect growth and vitality. B) Potting up only partially returns a plant to it's potential for growth and vitality. C) Repotting, with its accompanying root pruning, fully restores a plant's potential for growth and vitality (within the limits of other cultural factors that have the potential to limit growth). If you want to debate, that's fine, but those are the points I'm making, so let's stick to the topic. I don't really see what there is to argue about in those contentions.

One thing for all of us to keep in mind is - A healthy plant is impossible without a healthy root system. Root congestion limits root health, root function, and skews the ratio of coarse:fine roots to significantly favor coarse roots, which is a decidedly bad situation (for the plant).

Al

Jackie

Hey Al - That was someone else's method, but plumeria will carry on without missing a beat if you do your root pruning in the spring before your plant wakes up. It's a good idea to take a look at Laura's pictures. She's a pal, so I can poke her in the ribs a little and say she's a lot more timid about root pruning than I am, but that will change as time passes. Maybe she'll tell you what I told her when she was in vacillation mode over pruning the top of her DRs. ;-) .... and maybe not. Lol

Oh - if you're thinking about potting up a rootbound plant now, the answer is yes, if you cut off the very bottom of the root mass, and score the sides if the congestion is bad, the plant will show its appreciation. It's a good way to help a struggling plant get through until you can do more extensive work.

Best luck!

Al

-Amber-

-Amber-