Btw, I have the ability to host/create a website pretty immediately, and am the type that if I can't find the tool I'm looking for, I'll make one myself, so... if there's not a good resource out there, would there be interest in creating one? Like, would folks be interested in contributing photos of their own acquisitions, describing the conditions under which they grow, how they smell, what type (seedling, graft, cutting, etc.) to build a useful resource that isn't tied to a seller's website?

Pardon my exuberance :)

It sounds like a wonderful idea that would prove especially useful to us newbies! Hopefully, those forum members with lots of personal photos will jump in and allow the use of their pics and be willing to contribute. Many people water mark their photos.

Yup, I remember reading one person here who had their personal photo lifted and used by someone selling cuttings online. So even for those who don't watermark whatever is submitted, I'd have one added, to protect ownership and give credit!

I'm jumping the gun here and downloading some wiki software to give it a whirl. This is what happens when I work a half day Friday, and my 4YO is still at the babysitter's, LOL!

There are sites with names, descriptions etc. Have you tried the PSA site, Daves Garden Watchdog? PSA has a whole section of registered and unregistered varieties with descriptions. Clare Corre spent a huge amount of time getting pictures with permission and compiling a list of named plumies and descriptions and specs to do Davie;s Garden Dog Site. The easiest thing is to Google what you want and go to the Image tab. Ex: For Bill Morange, enter "Bill Morange Plumeria" and search and all the pics will show along with the sites with the info your looking for.
Hope this helps

Ivy- That is a great idea!!! We should all contribute pictures/descriptions and create a "GW Plumeriaholic Enabler List"
LOL!
I spend SO much time jumping sites looking at plumeria. It would be great to have an awesome database. I'm working on a spread sheet right now, but it is FAR from done. I have about 350 cultivars on there!
I think that Bill Moragne is the same as Bill Moragne Senior.

Nice idea ivy!
Rachel

freak-
Ya, I've looked at my local PSA's site... they have some descriptive information, but for whatever bizarre-o reason, photos are not easy to find at ALL! Or maybe you have to be a member to see them? No idea but take a look yourself:

http://theplumeriasociety.org

Click on Photo Gallery... nothing!
Click on Plumeria Names... where are the photos? Not there for almost all the ones I've seen randomly. It's just not very easy or fast to find a photo of an ID'd cultivar there. Maybe other PSAs are better? Seems like there should be an otherwise unaffiliated central place to look (aside from Google pix :)

And so far I've relied on Google images to identify the types, but that is hit and miss on accuracy, and doesn't really answer things like whether BM is the same as BM Sr. (thanks for the confirmation, Rachel!!)

Even if I'm re-inventing the wheel here, it's fun to learn :)

Ivysmom,

I am attaching link to PSA plumie library. Try Daves Garden Watch dog

Here is a link that might be useful: PSA Plumie gallery

Thanks, Freak. I have also tried to access the photo gallery and never found. Like Ivysmom, I thought maybe you had to be a member.

Still, it would be nice to have descriptions which each pic. And also the aliases and other little tidbit of info one could offer.

I have been assembling a catalog of named varieties from various sources around the web as a personal project.

So far I have names, alternate names, descriptions, photos, parentage, etc. for 667 varieties. My end goal is to produce this into a (large) PDF report/catalog type thing for people's personal (non-commerial) use.

That was the non-geek version of what I'm doing. The geek version, for those who can stomach it... using the software I help develop for my company, I'm actually building a semantic network of all the species, cultivars, and their characteristics.

The biggest problem is that there is a lot of information buried in the unstructured text descriptions that should eventually be extracted. A human has to do this and it is somewhat time consuming. But this is ultimately what will allow rapid identification of a named plant based on its characteristics, a better understanding of familial relationships between cultivars, etc.

However I can still produce the catalog I spoke of without doing all that, and it would still be a nice thing to have. I'll let you guys know when I get something interesting put together.

Here is a birds-eye view of the plumeria semantic network. At this zoom level you can't make out individual nodes, but the idea is that all the data is connected based on what they have in common. The colored lines are relationships, for example the person/org that named the cultivar, sellers of a cultivar, parentage (pod or pollen), etc.

Here is Celadine in the graph, and just its immediate relationships (one rung out.)

irun5k:
That... is AWESOME! Love it :) Neural nets for plumeria junkies, haha. I assume you've at least heard of thebrain.com?

freak:
THANK YOU! I have no idea why that has proven so difficult to find, but... yay :)

irun - Now, that's what I call dedication!

irun - I love it!! Now to make it interactive a la Benjamin Fry's project "Valence": benfry.com/valence/ (or maybe it already is??)

Awesome! I do good to keep up with the ones I have.
This is the best idea ever.
Tally HO!

ivysmom, I use Don Herron's "PLUMERIA BY CULTIVAR" DVD for pictures and Diana D's "Plumeria compilation" for descriptions. Combined, these are the 2 best resources on plumeria flowers available anywhere in the world in my opinion.

Dewaine

Brian--

LOL that is AWESOME, and I think that the fact that your brain thinks that way is also awesome. Wow! You go, bud.

Dewaine--thanks for that info! Might you happen to know where one might locate those great resources?

Greg

Brian, Don Herron owns the Florida Plumeria Society Yahoo Message Board. You can inquire about purchasing a copy of his "PLUMERIA BY CULTIVAR" flash drive or dvd there.

Diana shares her compilation freely and there's a file at the Florida Plumeria Society Yahoo Message Board named "DIANA'S AKA LIST V17" that has her compilation.

They're both one of a kind plumeria resources.

Dewaine

ivysmom , I found this list and thought it might be of help to you. I have no idea how actuate it is. Peg

http://plumeriaforum.com/index.php?/topic/392-aka-list/

There's a person who was compiling plumie names and AKA's on MPG, Domestic and Imported named Kathleen aka Mythical who lives in So Cal. Kathleens list is accurate, there was one also with more description like scents etc. The link to MPG is part of her list.

Cheers

pcput:
Thank you! I've browsed around a bit in there, too. It's like one piece of a bigger puzzle.

freak:
What is MPG?

Dewaine:
I think I need to get both of those, hah. My husband would be rolling his eyes if he saw this conversation. Thanks for feeding this new habit, everyone :)

I still feel this urge to centralize or aggregate information as much as possible. I may just do it as an exercise to learn how, but if it could actually be useful... well, I'll tap folks again for opinions :)

Hey Ivy,
MPG is another forum Maui Pluemeria Garden, there is a link listed on this thread with a list that is from MPG.

Thanks all for the positive comments.

Dewaine, thank you for the pointer to additional resources. Those might definitely be something I want to fuse together with what I already have.

Ivy, MPG is Maui Plumeria Gardens, who also host a forum. And if you haven't yet, I would contact the PSA and tell them your ideas. It is difficult to navigate their site and you have to poke around a lot to find that gallery link Freak gave you above.

Any database you could help build would be best hosted by the PSA as they are our registration authority. I think they may just be overwhelmed by all they have to do to keep up the site since most of them are volunteers who have day jobs, too, not to mention hundreds of plumies to care for!

I bet they'd be glad to exchange, say, free membership for your volunteer services in helping develop a database. Though I'd personally ask to be paid in plants ;)

Irun, your ideas are fantastic! Most of us are keeping our own running collections of info and would be glad to contribute the tidbits we've collected.

Below I've linked a good database for Thai varieties. Their indices also have photos. Since the Thais are unquestionably the most prolific cultivar developers these days, their varieties would have to be listed, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heliconia Paradise

Ivysmom,

I love where you are going with this and it is so timely. This is exactly what we are currently trying to do with the PSA society's website. Please see my posting regarding the request for photos. I would love to work with you on this. The society can always use help since we are all volunteers. Please send me an email to discuss this. Joan

Great idea everyone!!!

Seems like alot of interest and i will say that i would love to contribute...

Brian.. Wonderful job!!!

I would be interestd in what you have put together when you feel like it is ready.... I think what you are doing is simply wonderful!! Great JOB!!

Please keep me in mind.. i would love to see what you have done with all of this info.

Take care,

Laura

Joan,
I'd LOVE to help out with this :) I suppose it's time I join anyhow, hah. I'll send you an email when I get home later today. Typing in this phone is a oain. Yay!

Diana D, I had access to your info through a Yahoo group and want to compliment you on your compiling of this info. I've often wondered how many years it took? It is the most complete info I've seen anywhere. I use it often to research a new variety I'm considering and to log in info on my spread sheet of what I own. Smell to me is the hardest as the same flower can be smelled by many people and each can smell something different. It seems our noses don't work the same. I've never seen the pics part of it and that would have also been helpful. I'm so glad you have offer to work on this project. Have you ever updated the info? I would love to have an update if you have as I've noticed some of the newer well know varieties are not on the list. Thanks for all the hard work you have already done and I look forward to seeing what happens to this project in the future. Peg

Peg, the variety info is constantly updated (v21 at the moment). Pix are deliberately not included since it is too much work to track a photo source and get permission. Therefore, when someone is looking for a photo I simply send a PM rather than repost. I started collecting sample photos b/c vendor sites always show the best and brightest frontal view. Since I'm on the coast, I want to see what a bloom looks like w/o heat, so I gather them all.

IMO, a semantic network (love it) is most useful for managing AKA relationships, including 'so close you don't need both', and some sort of confidence factor. Sometimes I have an AKA, only to find out later that it's not. Because of this, I keep both entries... but it's a pain to look in multiple places.

For example, I have confidence of 100% for the translation of Daeng Sayam, but low confidence for the Thai Red AKA...

Daeng Sayem aka Siam Red daeng sa-yaam ( as in calm ). Not Thailand Red. Very large clusters of 3 to 3-1/2" blooms, very sweetly scented, deep red with a center of gold with small sparkles. This is an old Thai favorite. A nice red, rounded shape 2.5" to 3". Oval, strongly overlapping petals of heavy substance. Color: dark red of velvety appearance, dusted with gold towards center. Fragrance: none or very slight. Keeping quality: good, Leaves: young unfolding leaves dark red, later medium to dark green with some bronze shading. Top 2 red plumerias - recommended.

These nuances of transliteration, plus sorting out Oz AKA lists, are difficult.... but how many times have you bought a plant to find out it's a duplicate?

This whole document started about 3 years ago, and I reckoned, oh, 20 pages, max. This spring I split the doc when it topped 500 pages. yikes

PlumerPedia, anyone?

Diana, I have V16 at 286 pages. Boy has it grown !!! I can only imagine what 500 pages looks like now. Thanks for all your hard work. I for one put it to good use. Peg

Plumipedia -- I like it!

Diana, I am impressed with the amount of information you have assembled in one place.

One thing that would be interesting to discuss is the ontology, or the entities, attributes and relationships that describe- in this case- a Plumeria.

Some things are obvious. My initial ontology included the obvious stuff... species, cultivar, color, origin, registration authority, registrant, pod parent, pollen parent, vendors of, etc.

As you alluded in an earlier post, there is a good deal of other information that would be great to track ("petiole color, bud color, effect of heat, cold tolerance.") I think it would be smart to fully develop the ontology. Knowing, of course, that this level of fidelity exceeds what will actually be captured in many or most cases.

Tracking the semantics of all this can be of a lot of value but some of it might be theoretical and dependent upon a level of fidelity that will never realistically be known or captured. Just look at the tiny percentage of times that both a pod and pollen parent are known, and even in those cases the confidence is sometimes not high.

One of my biggest interests is cold tolerance and hardiness. This stems from living in an area where every five years or so a winter comes along that might kill one tree but spare another right next to it. However information on the hardiness of cultivars is largely anecdotal.

I do think that sorting the right data could lead to a better understanding of which environmental conditions are favorable and unfavorable for a given cultivar. In a perfect would this could feed into the hybridization process and eventually lead to better cultivars.

BTW, an ontology doesn't necessarily imply a semantic network. A wiki info box can represent a basic ontology equally as well, although this information is sometimes tough to use in external analysis since wiki markup (or at least mediawiki, which Wikipedia uses) is notoriously hard to parse. Therefore it is hard, using a wiki, to answer a question like "show me all the yellow, small flowered cultivars that are known to do well in high humidity, mild temperature locations." I realize, however, that this is probably a secondary use case, with the primary one being the dissemination of information the the greater online community.

I am happy to brainstorm on this at any time but I have to caution that I can get a little long winded :)

Hi Diana,

I have used your notes so many times that i dont even think that there is any other info that is better than yours!!!

You have put together so much info, that it simply blows my mind.

Thank you for taking the time to do this and to share this with us!!

Thank you for the latest update...

I just want to tell everyone that I had the chance to meet Diana out in CA and she has many different varieties that are simply impressive.. So. when you think some of us have alot. Well this lady has quite the collection. I was speechless when I saw her list.

Always a pleasure Diana!!! : )

Until next time...

Take care,

Laura

FYI: There's a WIP (work in progress) by Tex Norwood and others notable plumerians to catalog photos and descriptions - see plumeriaid.com. He's also put together a community-driven plumeria portal (also WIP) at plumeriasales.com, which includes sales, trades, events, docs, etc. Much of this is being driven by several Facebook groups (both public and hidden).

As always, Laura, thanks for the kind words, and hope to see you out here again some day.

In the interest of being a good end user, it's useful to define requirements before designing the solution (ha- too many years in high tech).

What do I want to accomplish?
1 - from the description and photos, decide if I interested
2 - prevent duplicates due to AKAs or 'very similar'
3 - decide if it is suitable to my growing conditions
4 - make recommendations
5 - ID unknowns (with usual caveats)
6 - understand risks (e.g. BT, bud drop, vitality)

Flower description - PSA has certainly defined the language and process, as have the Oz folks. However, this applies to the 'One True Bloom'. There's certainly more that can be added, but it does provide an excellent vetted baseline for what the flower should look like.

ID an unknown - providing a best-guess of a named variety requires much more info: back of bloom, leaf, bark color, etc. That's where we need much more baseline info. Add to that the zillions of unnamed plants. However, if you purchase from a reputable dealer / hobbyist, there's a good chance it was a named variety, and can be ID'd.

To root or not to root: which varieties should / must be grafted, and which ones make good graft hosts.

Nice to know info: 'parentage' so when getting seeds I know which produced winners; 'source' for tracking down a rare plant or to give credit for some awesome new ones. I think it would be very cool to be able to bring up photos of known seedlings.

Permutations - This is a biggie: whether regional, heat/cold related, humidity, it's easy to see that blooms can look completely different due to growing conditions. Capture that info, it's very useful.

This is my personal axe to grind, and why each of my plants gets 3 bloom cycles to prove itself. If my notes say 'needs heat', I don't even get the plant. The list Laura refers to is a tracking file: # tips, if it bloomed, # inflos, BT, source, and so on. At the end of every year, I ruthlessly ponder, thin the herd and send selected plants to a new (usually warmer) home.

BTW, if anyone wants a copy of my notes, just drop me a pm.

irun5k et al: I'm chatting with a few non-GWers to gauge both the level of interest, feasibility and willingness to contribute (important!). Love your comments.

ivysmon: thanks for unleasing this discussion, and to answer your original question, here's my notes, and note the contradictions due to growing conditions...

Bill Moragne, Sr. #156 AKA William Moragne Sr. William Moragne, Bill Moragne, Sr. Pink, elliptical moderately overlapped petals, 2 ½ to 3”. Upturned inner edges and heavy dark pink veins. Petals blend from dark pink to white. Red-purple stripes on the reverse and a yellow eye. Strong grape fragrance. Keeping quality is good with an average tendency to fade. Tall grower with thick branches. Can be difficult to root. Should be grafted. Branching is below average. Oblanceolate leaves are medium green with acuminate tips. Pod parent: Daisy Wilcox. Pollen parent: Scott Pratt. 2 1/2-3" pink rainbow with grape cool aid fragrance. Striking multi-rainbow color with rounded petals about 3 - 3 ½”. Develops one of the biggest flower heads. Extremely difficult to root. Cuttings are almost impossible to root. Incredibly large clusters. Medium tree. The inflorescence is huge! Very beautiful rainbow with heavy veining. brilliant pinks, white and golds. Fragrance is sweet and intense. Grows fast and strong. Wonderful addition to anyone's collection. 4" and blooms in tight bunches. Recommended for fragrance. Needs to be well established to bloom. Varies depending on humidity and heat. Pale almost like a Mardi Gras until heat/humidity turns it red. Bill was married to Jean. His daughter in law was Jeannie. His daughters were Mary M. Cooke, Sally M. Mist, and Katie M. Bartness. The granddaughters were" Edi (Cooke), Julie (Cooke), Cindy, Kimi, Cathy and Kelly. Slow grower.

slave and irun:
I LOVE how y'all think and are thinking about this topic. The first thing that came to mind about how to deal with seemingly conflicting or widely-varied traits ID'd with a specific plant (especially smell, which is soooo subjective, and can't be "captured" on a webpage) is to weight the variant options of an attribute somehow, and that could be through a voting mechanism.

For example, the Bill Moragne above has colors which include:
pink
white
gold
red-purple
rainbow

If users with profile information (part of the country they are in, at a minimum) have a Bill Moragne, they could vote on the colors they have seen in their Bill Moragne. Let's say 100 people vote, total (multiple "votes" are allowed because a single bloom can have multiple colors, obviously), and the tallies come to:

pink 71
white 95
gold 47
red-purple 60
rainbow 89

This weights it and would suggest that someone looking for a "rainbow" colored bloom would have a Bill Moragne as a high-score "match"/hit. White would be the largest commonly-seen color, etc. A separate category of "primary" color could be set up so that if someone is searching for "mostly" white plumies, this wouldn't be as high on the match list (bit it would come up on the list... compared to a Charlotte Ebert, which wouldn't be on the list at all, but would be a total match on "pink" for a primary color.

Furthermore, the vote number could be an additional source of drilldown. Like, the 60 who saw red-purple, maybe they were predominantly in the Southern US, where temps are much higher, but the 47 who saw gold were scattered all around -- which can tell the viewer that the deeper colors are more likely with hotter climes, but gold can be seen all over the country/world/area/whatever.

I guess this could work without having a login ID as well, through the voting mechanism -- literally a popup requesting additional information to associate with the vote could be made available (what part of the country are you in -- click a map), when did you see these colors (March, April, May, etc.), how much sun exposure (6 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, etc.)

This way folks can see photos of the blooms and get a better idea of what kind of growing conditions produced what they see.

I had an idea a few years back along the lines of "here's what's in my pantry, what can I make with it?" front end that takes search criteria (what is in your pantry) and matches it as closely as possible to a database of recipes ("You have 8 of the 10 ingredients needed to make This Awesome Entree" or "You have everything you need to make This Quick Snack", etc.) same could be applied against someone searching for a certain plumeria recommendation: "I live in zone 8b, Gulf Coast with 8+ hours of sunshine, and I want a compact prolific bloomer that is primarily white, easy to root and has a yellow center" -- the results would come back as recommendations: "95% match for XYZ, 80% match for ABC, DEF and PDQ, etc."

Anyhow, I'm rambling. Does this sound like something that folks would find useful? I think it would be a good way to let people browse when they know what attributes they are looking for or have seen, and if you know the name of a cultivar (say, from a PSA sale list published the night before) you can go straight to the entry for that tree and get an idea of what it looks like and the growing conditions that resulted in that appearance.

People buy plumeria like they get a kitten - they pick the cutest one :-)

IMO, we lack the vocabulary to adequately describe the blooms. Even if we did, the enormous color variance makes a database like this too ambiguous. Once you get past the OTB description, photos provide the best information. Even scent changes, and varies from person to person.

How to best make this useful? Recommendations to go with the description: fragrance, pot culture, cool / hot weather, bloom season, etc. Then go pick the cutest kitten...

Here's the bump, Roxanne

what bump?

I bumped the old post up to the top so you could read it. Peg

Joan, Ivy, any more news about these projects?

I have lots of notes and photos I've been compiling, just no technical know-how to set up a site with it.