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rwalleytx

Plumerias in rainy weather?

Richard
11 years ago

Im a newB with plumerias with some questions. They might be stupid but I wanted to find out anyways.

1. Towards the end of the growing season and my plants are still outside til the weather gets cooler but I was wondering when it rains say for days in a row what do you guys do with your plumerias?? I hear its bad to overwater so what happens in situations where you get a full day of rain or more? I understand you should have good draining soil but are there any risks for root rot with too much rain?

2. I see so many names people give these plumerias some official some not but I have seen so many identical plumerias with different names also I have seen dramatic color changes just from different stages of the flowers growth and even temperature. How can I be sure Im not buying the same plant just with a different name or may just look different due to these conditions?

3. SOIL ...the main thing that will help make your plumeria grow and stay healthy. I have seen so many crazy mixes and formulas and fertilizers and additives. Do plumerias know the difference between these and just plain ol well draining potting soil in a bag. I have asked a few of the old skool plumeria growers that have been doing this for years that dont even know what all that jibber jabber even means haha and say just do regular well drain potting soil from home depot or lowes or a dirt yard. Should i keep it simple or will I gain better growth and health from my plants with these new methods or is it hype?

Im so glad there is a place to learn about plumerias otherwise I would have probably killed them all by now. Thanks in advance!

Comments (42)

  • moonie_57 (8 NC)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Walley! I'm fairly new to plumerias too but here's my 2 cents worth.

    1) At this time of year, here in NC where the weather is getting cooler, particularly at night... if it were going to be raining for days on end, I would be moving my potted plants out of the rain.

    2) Somewhere, there is an AKA list, and I think if you will do a search on this forum you will find that list. This is something we talk about here quite often. It can be very confusing and for those that don't have the room for multiplies of the same variety, annoying, too.

    3) Al aka tapla here at the GW, swears by his gritty mix and has been gardening/bonsai'ing for ohhhh, 80 years or so. :) and many people have had great success with the gritty, including Laura. I have used it mostly for cuttings and it seems to do very very well for rooting. Old skool plumeria growers... if they have had great success, why would they change now? For my larger plants I just use half and half MG and perlite.

  • moonie_57 (8 NC)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Walley, I should I have said that I would move my new-this-year rooted cuttings out of the rain. Bigger potted plants I have not worried about so far. :)

  • Richard
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like "simple" I just wanted to get those questions out of the way. I have so many hobbies and what I found was most of the time the latest and greatest is not worth the extra money but I did get me a moisture meter as a recommendation and found this was the best thing i have ever purchased for my plumerias. Hey KMS how often do you usually water your plumerias at this time of the year? Are you in texas? Lately it seems like I only need to water 1 time maybe 2 times a week here in san antonio.

  • beachplant
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wally K hit it on the head! Plumeria are from central America, they get monsoon rains for days, same in Hawaii and then dry as a bone. Unless it`s the middle of winter and they are dorman don`t sweat rain.

    Even the aka list may not help, I have a couple of plumeria that, like you say, depending on heat, rain, season look like completely different flowers, size, color, even how open the petals are. You may end up with duplicates, don`t sweat it, just trade them off.

    Every single grower I know, and that includes Emerson, uses a "good" potting mix, most of the big growers use a growers mix that is delivered in bulk. Jim of Jimbos in Santa Fe, Texas plants all his plants in this mix and he specializes in bromeliads and cactus! Plumeria are the least picky plant I own about soil, they will literally grow in anything. I make a mix for my cactus because they like more sand but pretty much everything else goes in potting soil from the garden center, there are some excellent mixes out there and MG has a new organic soil that the plants really like.

    I`m in Galveston, most of the plumeria in pots are watered 1-2 times per week, some smaller ones and seedlings are 1-2 days depending on how hot it`s been this week. 89 this morning at 0450 with humidity of 95%.

    Tally HO!

  • Dave in NoVA • N. Virginia • zone 7A
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I echo most:

    1. If my plants have lots of green leaves and growing roots, I can't really overwater them unless they are poorly draining. Plants (established plants) are more forgiving in the Fall as they are usually robust and growing strongly. Seedlings and newly-rooted cuttings are a bit more temperamental.

    In winter, late winter, and early spring watering and cool temps are much more critical. Dropping leaves = less water. No leaves = no water. During dormancy keep plants above freezing - ideally with a warmup during the day into 60s.

    2. Names -- when people register unique cultivars with names you can be assured you are getting that specific clone. Buy only from reputable sources though. Some cultivars are special, some are not anything really unique. Find out which plumerias do well in your area -- maybe go to a plumeria sale. Flower colors can be much darker and more vibrant in warm/hot weather. Do Google image searches online and see the wide range of what the flowers look like from different growers in different regions and under differing climates. Get what appeals to you. If you are growing them in pots, try to ascertain whether the variety is a tall lanky grower, or more compact. You will be hard pressed to maintain a tall lanky grower in a pot for many, many years.

    3. SOIL...talk to local plumeria growers and see what they are using. If your weather is hot, hot, you may need one that holds more moisture longer. I would think the half Miracle Grow / half perlite would work fine for S.A area.

  • mksmth zone 7a Tulsa Oklahoma
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i just want to add what I use and have had great success with

    Fafard 52 with added coarse perlite in a ratio of 5 to 1. the gritty mix is fine for plants that stay small/smaller and dont have to be moved in and out but when you start getting into 10-20 gallon pots there is no way I could move them and or pay for it.

    Mike

  • beachplant
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    if anyone around you carries Natures way products their potting mix is the bomb! All organic, mixed in Conroe. John Ferguson is a soil scientist and a really great person if you ever get a chance to meet him or here him talk. I use their native hardwood mulch, which Home Depot in this area carries. I have to go to the mainland to pick up potting soil though. I`m trying to get the manager to order it for me at Home Depot.

    They have some great information on their page.
    Tally HO!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Natures way

  • PRO
    the_first_kms2
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Walley,
    I am 10 miles up the freeway from you. We talked on the phone a couple of weeks ago. Funny story but I was behind Barbra at a traffic light just down the road from her house on Tuesday. She ran the light...I didnt.

    The way I see it...There is no need to buy online until you have checked with our grower friends in the Houston area. You have a 80% or better chance of finding what you want. And its essentially guaranteed to be the cultivar you want. They are all PSA members and stand by their plants. Just like the Jim Little Farms packaging says "Name Guaranteed." I understand that many on the forum dont have that option and there are a few great vendors which service that market.

    Talley, I have brought back to San Antonio some Natures Way products a few months ago. I think i bought it at Lowes in far Southeast Houston. The ultimate test will be to see how intense the root structure is on those plants in the spring.

  • Richard
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    haha I was not sure that was you. We are getting hit with some rain! Im guessing its going to start cooling down from here on. Glad there is someone else in san antonio with plumerias.

  • elucas101
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi RWalley - I'm in Kyle so I share the same climate as you, kms2 and jandey (Barbara grows only in Rockport, right?) Glad to have you aboard! My plants absolutely loved the rain today - it's the wind they really don't like!

    I have 3 plants with inflos developing and had a few others earlier on - so far my plants have done very well in our climate! We just have to watch out in the winter time but otherwise I think we have very good plumie conditions.

    I'm using a Miracle Grow / Perlite mix for all of my plants now, it makes it readily available and well draining. Sometimes it's actually on the very dry side, so they aren't sitting in water.

  • beachplant
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love natures way products, their potting soil is perfect for my tropicals. If I could find it on the island I would use nothing else. But, since I can`t I use either miracle gro or scotts potting soils. We don`t cool off at night, not even as much as Houston does, so I need a mix that holds some moisture, otherwise I can not water enough.

    Walley, I am going to Emersons to pick up a plumeria for Barb before the swap so if you want anything don`t forget! I will bring it up with me. Anything in particular you want? I can check and see if I can find it.
    Tally HO!

  • Richard
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks beachplant very kind of you. Im sure there is something. I sent you a email!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    RW - Your choice of soil has a significant impact on how much potential you can get out of your plants. That is something that can't be disagreed with. In a way, it's like an Indy car that you put regular gasoline in. I might RUN, but you will never get the potential out of the vehicle it's capable of when using a higher grade of fuel. Plants are genetically encoded with a certain level of VIGOR, but to realize the potential that's in their genetic coding, you must maintain their VITALITY. Vitality is a measure of the plants ability to function with the hand it's dealt. In the case of containerized plants, it the plant's ability to cope with the hand WE deal it. If you deal it a limiting hand, you get a limited plant. Period. You can put a $100 plant in a 2-bit soil and have little more to show for the effort than an exercise in futility; but you can put a 2-bit plant in a premium soil and end up with something quite special. I'm very used to seeing and discussing both sides of that particular coin.

    I hear the term 'simple' or 'keep it simple' quite frequently, but 'simple' in do way reflects the quality of a soil. It reflects a grower's interest in minimizing what he has to go through to produce a suitable soil - not how well a soil will or even can perform. Whether simple or complex, the measure of a soil's suitability revolves around how effectively it anchors the plant and provides the ratio of water and air the plant favors - nothing more. To the plant, it doesn't even matter how well the soil holds nutrients - as long as you can provide.

    Most commercially prepared soils based on peat, coir, compost, composted forest products, topsoil, sand, or other similarly fine ingredients are poor choices because they hold too little air and too much water. I can say this because those properties are tightly bound to particle size. Small particles = less air and more water.

    Ideally, you want a soil that holds as much air as YOU can tolerate and still comfortably keep up with the watering. Here is where we separate grower convenience from the good of the plant. Often, growers advise you from their perspective, which is based on their own convenience or needs, not the plant's wants. A plant has greater potential in a soil that requires daily watering than one that requires weekly watering, but the grower that can or wants to water only once each week will quickly condemn a soil that requires daily watering, no matter what potential that soil holds for the plant. These growers need to recognize that everyone doesn't approach growing in the same way they do. Some of us ARE perfectly content watering every other day or daily if required, in order to get the most out of our plants.

    If a grower is willing or forced to settle for less from their plants for the sake of convenience, no one should fault them - our priorities are our own, and no one has walked a mile in our shoes. I can say though, that if you were using a free-draining soil that doesn't support significant amounts of perched water, you wouldn't have had to ask the questions related to rain/water retention and the impact of soil choice. Considering effects for the long term, and in many cases the short term, it's extremely likely that a grower's choice of soil will hold more sway over the amplitude of his success and and how easily that success comes, than any other factor that goes into establishing a planting.

    Al

  • citizen_insane
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,
    how have you been pal? I am going to add my two bits and I really do not want to get into a debate with you on this.

    You live in zone 6a. Coarse potting mix might be good for cool climates but it is a total disaster for hot zones 8b-10. Coarse soil drains well but you are forgetting that coarse soil also looses its moisture quickly by evapoaration to the air. When temperatures are over 100F, you can water a plumeria in the morning and by the afternoon it collapses (some members on this board have posted pictures too), especially if planted in a pot less than 5 gallons in size. You need to have small particles in the potting soil for hot climates to keep the water from evaporating too fast. But you also need to have perlite and pumice to hold moisture and sharp sand to help with the drainage. I have been growing plumerias for 30 years in the Houston area and I have played around with all kinds of potting soils. If the soil looses moisture too fast generally the plumeria branches get wrinkle. I know what works for our climate. Please stop advicing people what to do in hot climates based on your exerience in cold climates.

    tc,
    George

  • pcput
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al, I just love the way you have of explaining things. It is always very thought provoking. Some times it takes reading it more than once to "get it". I've been wondering when you have a mix that the waters run through as fast as you put it in and you have fertilizer in this water, how is it that enough fertilizer stays in the mix to feed the plant? Isn't most of it running out with the water. Feels like I'm waiting the money on fertilizer. Would a slow release be better mixed into the mix? Or am I looking at it wrong or is there a better way to fertilize? Peg

  • beachplant
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you George! Not every issue is soil related and not every climate is the same. I would have pots of dead plants if I listened to that advice.

    I doubt if anyone would say Emerson "is willing or forced to settle for less from their plants for the sake of convenience". I`ve seen his plants. For that matter so have a lot of people on this forum and noone can argue with his success.

    Tally HO!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, Peg. I appreciate the kind words. One of the properties of soils is their ability to retain anions and cations. These sub-molecular particles form electrical bonds with colloidal surfaces (surface of particles) in the soil and hold on with varying degrees of strength, some of which is dependant on pH. Organic particles are pretty good at holding on to nutrients, partly because they have a lot of surface area to provide attachment sites. Think of one piece of velcro on each side of a cube (6), then think of a decahedron with 10 sides, each side having a piece of velcro. In soils, a piece of sand would be the equivalent of the cube, and an organic particle or even a particle of Turface, with it's tremendous surface area, would be more like the 10-sided figure. That's an over-simplification, but roughly how soils work. The issue is, the bulk density (ratio of weight to volume) of container soils is much lower than mineral soils; this, so we can include enough air in the soil to get them to function, so the ability of container media to retain nutrients will always be low, compared to most of the soils we have in our gardens & beds.

    To make up for that, we need to fertilize often. I usually suggest flushing the soil every time you water. In some cases, that is very important, in other cases, not nearly as important. Lets say your plant uses 6X as much N as P, and about 3/5 as much K as N. That's about the average of how plants use these nutrients, and the range of that usage varies surprisingly little among genera/species. A 3:1:2 ratio fertilizer supplies nutrients in almost exactly that proportion, which is why I think they are the best choice for almost everything we grow. Fertilizers like 24-8-16, 12-4-8, and 9-3-6 supply very close to 6X as much P as N and about 3/5 as much K as N - so it's not an accident that so many fertilizer producers manufacture these fertilizers and label them as all purpose - they really come as close to being what they are labeled as reasonably possible.

    When you use a fertilizer that supplies nutrients in the same ratio as that used by plants, the ratio of nutrients in the soil doesn't get skewed - at least not quickly. Cars need 4 tires, 2 headlights, and one steering wheel. Which is the most intelligent ratio in which to buy them - 4:4:4, 4:2:1, or 1:1:1? The 1:1:1 would soon see you running out of tires and headlights, and the 4:4:4 would soon have you filling warehouses with surplus headlights and steering wheels. Nutrients are exactly the same. If you provide an excess and don't continually flush it from the soil, it builds up until it becomes limiting. You can see that 1:1:1 ratio fertilizers like 14-14-14 and 20-20-20 are impossible to use w/o creating excesses and deficiencies.

    Most fertilizer is inexpensive. Even Foliage-Pro which is expensive on a per volume basis is very inexpensive on a per dose basis. Given what we spend on plants, soils, containers, water, the cost of fertilizer is actually pretty insignificant. Fertilizing regularly and flushing the soil allows you to be certain of what your plants are getting and when they are getting it. During those 100+ degree days/weeks, you can withhold fertilizer, which makes it easier for the plant to take up water and cool itself. You don't have that option when using organic soil amendments, slow release, or controlled release products as a source of nutrition ... which is why I prefer soluble synthetics applied more frequently but at lower concentrations than suggested by manufacturers.

    I hope that helped?

    ****************************************

    CI - It's good you don't wish to get into a debate. I'm sure that will serve the forum well.

    Some growers are very quick to dismiss what I offer about soils when they don't want to consider what I'm saying, suggesting that because I don't live in a more southerly clime, that I don't and can't understand and/or help resolve the problems they feel are unique to only them. The fact is their problems aren't unique - not at all. I've been helping friends in TX, SoCal, Brazil, Australia, and other very southerly locals to grow a wide variety of woody plants with great success. Among them are figs, citrus, and a wide variety of other fruits and various woody plant material. So when it's said "It won't work" it's simply wrong. The forums are full of their successes and thank yous for the help, and that's easily searchable. Given the length of time I have been helping others improve their successes, much of it due to their new found ability to improve root health, it might be more appropriate to look at the o/a understanding of soil science of those suggesting I can't or don't appreciate the impact of heat on root health. That's something I've been discussing and helping growers in a very large sphere to ameliorate for years.

    If someone wishes to find fault with anything I presented, I'm perfectly willing to discuss it. BTW - my advice was offered to the OP to accept or reject as he sees fit, but I'm perfectly willing to have it scrutinized and picked apart on a line by line basis by anyone who would like to; but let's stick to facts. That approach would certainly be more favorable than anything ad hominem.

    Al

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really need to say something in my own defense here. I was invited to this forum by a friend who felt I had something to contribute, and I have tried hard to help as many as want or need it. At every turn, I'm met with something like this from Beachplants: I doubt if anyone would say Emerson "is willing or forced to settle for less from their plants for the sake of convenience". I've seen his plants. For that matter so have a lot of people on this forum and no one can argue with his success. No one HAS said or remotely implied Emerson "is willing or forced to settle for less from his plants for the sake of convenience". The words in bold are indeed my words, but they are blatantly taken out of context and framed in such a way that it appears that I said something disparaging of Emerson or his plants, when there isn't even the hint of a suggestion of that being so. I don't even know Emerson. That's a very low and undeserved blow.

    I don't post all that often, but I do have a lot to offer this forum, and I play fair, so how about if we lose the sandbox stuff and work together to create light instead of heat. Nuff said.

    Al

  • citizen_insane
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,
    the people who are successful growing plumerias in gritty mix are people in northen and coastal climates that are cool in the summers. Go look at the pictures of Mike in Oklahoma what the plumerias, planted in griddy mix,looked liked in 106F temperatures.

    Now you are going too far trying to tell me about citrus and figs. My dad was a commercial citrus grower when I was growing up. Citrus loves clay soil, not soil like griddy mix. As a matter of fact, I have more than 60 citrus trees in my yard here in Sugar Land, both in the ground and in pots (limes and lemons that are cold sensitive in pots). The soil here in Sugar Land is heavy clay (we call it gumbo). Even the citrus in pots I planted in clay soil. They are all doing beautiful for the last 30 years. Planting citrus in griddy mix is really not vey wise. As for figs, I also have more the 30 fig trees in my yard (grown as multi-trunk bushes). I have an 80 ft row of fig trees next to my garden to protect my tomatoes and fruit from the birds (birds always go for the figs). Figs also love clay soil. They have shallow roots and need mulching and frequent watering. Planting figs in griddy mix is also not very wise. Both fig trees and citrus trees do not require good drainage to thrive. Their roots do not rot if the roots are wet. On the other hand, if they get too dry they drop their fruit big time.

    I bet you have not ever grown citrus or figs, just like you have not ever grown plumerias or bouggies. I have been growing them since I was a kid. I see no point trying to debate you on this. I will not respond to your posts on this. Take care.

    George

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here we go again. No one tried to tell you anything about figs, George. You used that as an obvious excuse to go off on me again. I mentioned figs in passing - that I have helped people with their figs. I have a dear Dr friend in TX who contacted me through GW. I've been helping him and his Dr daughter in CA for more than 10 years with their figs and citrus. What crime? Scheesch!

    All I really need to say is you needn't take my word for it. In spite of what you might believe, the fig and citrus forums are full of evidence that supports what I just said. We're talking about growing in containers here, and the overwhelming evidence supports clay as being problematic in conventional containers, but that it can be made to work passably if you partially bury the containers, which turns them into small raised beds, hydrologically speaking.

    I'm not here to tell you or beachplants or anyone else who doesn't need or want my advice anything, and there really was no need for either of you to inject yourselves between me and the OP, unless you found something wrong with what I said - factually. Your opinion, and just saying something is so, doesn't make it so. I can fall back on the fact that I've helped many thousands of people learn to get more from the growing experience, in large part by creating healthy root environments, and the proof is in writing all over these forums (and I've saved a few emails).

    [This message originated at GardenWeb]

    I just wanted to let you know how much I am enjoying your writings on container soils and the harsh realities of what most people think they know. Having a degree in horticulture and years of field experience, I can say that I have seldom seen this topic explained in such a understandable manor. You have definitely found the sweet spot in soils.

    Just wanted to drop buy and say Hi. Keep going...

    **********************************************

    From a fig grower:

    [This message originated at GardenWeb]

    My plants would be languishing, at best, at the worst, dying a slow, rotting, death, if it were not for you and all the well thought-out science behind the recommendations that you have posted, on many differing forums, over all the years.


    You shine a light on ignorance, and have educated us when it comes to the botanical needs of the plant kingdom. After reading all of your postings, I for one, have learned more in 5 years, and what I thought I learned over the last 40 years, can now go into the garbage. Well reasoned science trumps anecdotal information always...without exception.

    Thanks for the endless explanations regarding the science behind growing mediums...for explaining what a "Perched Water Table" is, and how to avoid it...for your fertilizer recommendations....and I could go on, and on.

    You have taken many hits in the past from members of these forums, but you defend your scientific positions without wavering. You, when you disagree with the positions of someone else, provide reasoned explanations, and let us make up our own minds. You're never overly "preachy".

    Thank-you for your contributions to these forums. You have helped us all become better plant-growers.

    F....

    ***************************************************

    [This message originated at GardenWeb]

    Hello, Al.

    I ended up in the forum for succulent soil mix. I am an agriculture engineer that has just realized I lack a lot of knowledge regarding potted plants and soil mixes.

    I just wanted to tell you that the thought that kept going through my head was "I want to be his intern!"

    Anyway, I live in Northern Mexico, and sometimes it is hard to translate certain things and be sure that it is the same product when translated in Spanish. I'll be looking for the ingredients this weekend.

    I also wanted to tell you that it is really great to see someone as passionate about something that I think makes it contagious. [sic] It is very admirable that you are self-taught and that you enjoy sharing your knowledge with EVERYONE (sometimes over and over again).

    I signed up to the forum just so I could tell you this, but i am sure I'll be dropping in often.

    Sincerely, C......


    *****************************************************

    There have been hundreds & hundreds of emails like that over the years. In fact, it's unusual for more than a day to pass that I don't get a sincere thank you in my email, for no other reason than to say thanks. It's nice to have those included in much longer lists of other plant questions that are brought to me, very often when growers are having trouble sorting through the white noise or strife on some threads.

    As I said, I'm not here to try to change the minds of those content in their methodology. I'm here to help those with minds open enough to be receptive to things that make sense. So far, no one has indicated a willingness to be specific in suggesting there is something in what I said that can't be supported.

    I think the idea that you should throw out a soil because one person has difficulty growing in it is capricious. If one grower's problem was warrant enough to toss a soil out on its ear, there would be nothing left to grow in - and the very first soils to be banned under the new guidelines would be heavy water retentive soils, like MG, MGMC, and others based on fine particulates.

    Finally, what someone's dad or mom or uncle does, or how they do it, doesn't concern me. It's a nice story, but I'm interested in helping the OP, not getting involved in critiquing or comparing my offering to something that extraneous. I'm not going to come out of this diminished, because I'm trying to help the OP and I can support everything I said in so many ways. I have that covered - the science is solid and practical application well-tested. There is a lot of noise being made, but specifics are lacking - that should be pointed out. If you could have found anything wrong with what I said - you would have.

    My sincere apologies, RW. If you have any questions .....

    Al

  • PRO
    the_first_kms2
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok...

    Walley...be proud your post invoked trolling.

    We have established Tapla doesnt grow Plumerias but he will bank your praises for future use (really?) and Citizen Insane doesn't use "griddy mix" nor can he spell it and citrus likes clay. You guys dont like each other...fine. End it with that.

    I'll say it again based on your self stated "newB" status. Its not a bad thing to just keep it simple until you are more comfortable with growing Plumeria. Then try a technique or method that is new to you. It keeps the hobby from becoming routine. I will also add that using the wick technique (dare I say without being added to the praise file learned from one of Tapla's posts) gives added protection from water sitting in the container. I'll show you how when the AUS/SAT group meets again.

  • Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey Guys,

    Come on... Is this the way we want to help the Op asking questions?

    Walley... Rain water is the best for your plumeria and will love this especially when you dont have it that often down in Texas. The heat you have down there will dry out your containers so i wouldn't worry about them getting soaked from the rain...

    Al has tried to help many on this forum and he is trying to help people see what the benefits of a well draining soil does for the health and vitality to your trees in a good fast drainig mix. He may not have as many Plumeria that we all have, but he does have many types of trees and plants and he is trying to help explain how soil works and why...

    Some may find that his explainations may be hard for some to understand at first.. but in his defense, he is getting hit pretty hard here... I do understand where he is coming from when he tries to explain why plants need to have good aeration. If you are happy with what you are using than that is fine. If you want to learn and maybe find out something that may help your plants grow better then fine...

    "Simple" is what you want it to be... Make it easy on yourself and see what your trees like. If you are willing to try and seek out information, then do so... Noone is telling anyone to change what they are using.

    Please lets be civil and stop this ..

    Everyone has their opinions and calling or renaming the mixes just adds to the negative feel of the post.

    There are many who have good experiences with "Gritty" Mix in zones 8 and higher.. I for one.

    Laura

  • DelWH
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree, Laura. I like knowing the details, down to the molecular level, but that's just me, always curious. It definitely helps knowing what is happening in the ground. And he is only offering the details, not requiring anyone to follow his way, you can take or leave his explanations. Whatever works well for anyone, keep doing it.

  • pcput
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with Laura and DelWH. It's just information. Not right or wrong just different options. Read it and do what you want with it. If it's working for you and your happy don't change it. If you'd like to play around and try something different or think it could be better, the info is there for you to use. That's why I'm here, to get all the info I can and then try out different things until I find what I like and works for me. You guys both have GREAT info and I add it to the things I want to try out. I see no reason to go at each other because you have differing opinions. You are not going to change the way the other one thinks and it only leaves people wonder what is going on. I personally would hate to see either of you leave this group as you both give us so much to think about.
    I've learned much for both of you and for that I am grateful. I hope to learn more from you both in the future as I gain more experience in growing these plants. Peg

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I appreciate you guys speaking up. I've been assailed with the same snarky behavior by the same few ever since I started posting at this forum, but have largely ignored it. Some, when they can't find fault with my reasoning or the science behind what I offer, so they go after the man in an attempt to diminish. In this case, the question is begged, is it more likely I don't understand the impact of heat on roots, or some people don't have the same degree of understanding of soil science that I have? The absence of any questions directed to the substance of what I offered (and regularly offer) points squarely to the later.

    In the recent past, I've been invited to a UofM facility to address a group of professional growers on the topic of soils, helped the City of Paris, France develop a soil for their street tree plantings, several times worked with people at universities and engineers to develop soils to help utilize and purify runoff on slopes where the angle of repose was the main issue, helped dozens of start-ups and established plant-related businesses develop or improve existing soils ...... but somehow I'm not qualified to offer suggestions to a hobby grower that have the potential to increase the amount of satisfaction he gets from the growing experience - when I've already done that thousands of times here at GW alone? There's a reality check in what I just wrote, and to gang up on me for trying to help is wrong in a number of ways.

    I included those few emails from GWers, not to boast, but because to most readers their opinions should hold more sway than a critic who remains on the sidelines w/o ever really entering into a meaningful discussion that has any potential to offer enlightenment. I'm here to help people, to help them grow and enlarge their perspective to where it includes the whole growing picture. The fact is, there are several people who post regularly that could benefit immensely with some changes or a fresh perspective, but I'm not interested in working that hard to changed a mind that's already made up. There's a difference between "It won't work" and "How do I MAKE it work". I'm interested in reaching people with enthusiasm, a willingness to make an effort to improve their skills, and an open mind. As soon as I see someone isn't receptive to what I'm offering, I move along, but it has to be the OP, not someone asking me to please stop telling people how to grow.

    If someone wants to grow in chopped celery, I say go for it. If he tells someone else it's a good idea, you can bet I'm going to point out it's NOT, and explain exactly why it isn't. If that person disagrees, there is no reason to attack me - just show me the error in my ways, my thinking, or why the science I used in my explanation is wrong. That is how people learn and how adults disagree, and I'm always perfectly willing to discuss anything I say. No one seems to want to do that. That fact alone really does make this whole thing a tempest in a teapot.

    I tried hard to write this focusing on habits, not individuals, to only try to explain where I'm coming from, so let's please try to resist all the snarky stuff, put an end to this, act like adults, and focus on helping people instead of trying to diminish others. If the consensus is that the forum is a better place without me, I'll be perfectly happy to move on. Some of you know with certainty that I am moved by a need to help people improve their growing skills here at GW and in my own community and surrounding communities. I'll take a certain amount of forum abuse to accomplish that end, but I'm not a masochist or a fool.

    Al

  • John Perilloux
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Al, I appreciate the amount of time you take to compose the comments you post in this forum.

  • citizen_insane
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Peg,
    the problem as I see it is not just a difference of oppinion. He discounts good advice and information based on generalized things he is preaching. Here is a good example of that. In a previous thread I showed a picture of my Atzec Gold plumeria that has not been repoted for a long time. It has a nice shape and blooms like clockwork every year. If he had grown just one Atzec Gold plumeria he would have known that this was one good looking tree because just about every pot-grown Atzec Gold plumeria is lunky and ugly. During the SCPS sale a few weeks ago, Diana Donnellan posted a list of plumerias available for sale, with information on them. Here is what she wrote about Atzec Gold:

    "Aztec Gold aka South Florida Gold, Peach Plumeria. #203 Golden yellow, faint pink edging showing through
    from back, elliptical petals, rounded tips, moderate overlapping, medium texture, 4", strong peach scent,
    keeping quality very good, slight tendency to fade. Tall grower with average branching. Green leaves are
    elliptical with acute tips. New growth is pubescent. A marvelous large yellow, 4" that shades to white. Faint pink
    band on reverse. A strong unique fragrance of ripe Georgia peaches. Most desirable plumeria for fragrance.
    Very large, long-lasting and a long blooming period. Easy to root. Easiest to flower and grow. Flowers for
    several months with new flowers coming every 2-4 days. 4 to 4.5" as the plant reaches 5 years old. Aztec can
    get floppy so if the branches grow outward - stake and tie the branches upward to shape the plant up. Weeping
    habit when it gets too much water. The "normal" AG has yellow flowers with a pink stripe down the outside edge
    of the back of the petal. If these new buds open yellow, then what you are seeing is typical. The same AG
    produces flowers with a striking pink stripe and also with little or no pink, depending upon temperature, water,
    light and who knows what else. Requires FULL sun. Recommended for the coast. Huge 4-5" with powerful
    peachy fragrance. If watered and fertilized frequently, produces unrelenting rapid growth. Frequent watering
    supports numerous leaves and the collective weight make the branches weep except for the ends which turn
    up. Growth pauses during long periods of drought and drops lower leaves to conserve water. Keep an Aztec
    Gold upright by rarely watering, limiting roots to a pot and not fertilizing as much as the other plumeria. Soil mix
    should have virtually no water retention. Sensitive to soil compaction. Medium to tall tree. Good graft host. 4
    different varieties have been reported with very different growth patterns. Either grows upright with shorter
    leaves or one droops with a longer leaves - flower seems to be the same."

    Note what the reccommendation for growing Atzec Gold is: "it is different than other plumerias and should not be watered or fertilized as much because it produces unrelending growth. Keep an Atzec Gold upright be rarely watering, LIMITING ROOTS TO A POT, and not fertilizing as much as other plumerias".

    This is exactly what I reccommended to this board.I even posted pictures of the unrelending growth it produces when it is not rootbound. Well, Mr Al discounted all that as non-sense because my plant was "unhealthy" grown root-bound that way and you should not listen to me. The sad thing is that a lot of inexperienced plumeria growers on this board believe this man and discount a lot of good information posted here.

    Go grow some plumerias first Al before you can tell people how to grow them.

    tc,
    George

  • PRO
    the_first_kms2
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Then both of you next time can just say you disagree and move on. Butt heads somewhere else. You are both on the low road.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    KMS - your post a little upthread is one of those I referred to as being snarky - and if you look at it, you'll see it is - very. If there are any on the low road, I think your post and past similar posts put you in the same company. You've often posted something like that, only to return later and point to the foibles of others - for being snarky. I'm not saying that to get a pound of flesh, it's the truth and evident here. Sorry - just defending myself. See the end of this post.

    George - What you just brought up has nothing to do with this post, but I'll review it with you if you like and the OP doesn't object. I'll try to write it in such a way that other's might gain some understanding of some of the more technical considerations being discussed and of of growing in containers, and I'll be pleasant, because I'm only interested in the facts, not in vilifying you or diminishing you.

    What I initially said way back when, was, your tree (the Aztec Gold) exhibits signs of being root bound. Well - here's exactly what I said:

    "George - please don't take this as a personal criticism, because it's not; but when I look at your tree, I see a tree with almost all its new growth concentrated extremely near apices (branch tips) and no lateral breaks (back-budding), both indicative of the plant being extremely root bound. I do a lot of repotting work on my own trees, as well as on those of others as a favor, and they're often trees that take two people to handle, so I'm no stranger to the 'look' of a plant growing with tight roots.

    I think that readers should look at the thought that your tree has never been repotted as something to be avoided if possible, and not embraced as a standard MO unless they are willing to accept the limitations imposed by tight roots. Even potting up is very limited in its ability to return a tree to something closer to its genetic potential in growth and vitality. .....

    Again, my apologies to George for the critique, but I thought the forum might benefit from the observations. I beg a pardon. Take care!

    How much more polite could I have been? Would anyone suggest that trees never be repotted as standard or even acceptable procedure?

    Now, fast forward to what you offered today, immediately above. I'm going to focus on the crux of this issue. You said, in caps, that the person you were quoting suggested "LIMITING ROOTS TO A POT". That is far different than limiting roots WITHIN a pot. One says "Put your plants in a pot for best results", the other is a recipe for a variety of unwanted issues and a limited tree. You can limit roots TO a pot w/o allowing the roots to be limited WITHIN the pot. You can limit a child's education TO a school w/o limiting his education WITHIN that school. This isn't just a play on words - it goes straight to the understanding of how trees grow and prosper, as well as what limits them.

    My point was, growing plants under extremely root bound conditions is extremely limiting; it has to be; there is no denying it; and we all know it. Growing a plant in a pot is usually somewhat limiting even under ideal conditions, but doesn't have to be extremely limiting. By virtue of the fact that you had never repotted the plant, it's a foregone conclusion that the plant is being extremely limited. You may very well be perfectly happy with the limitations, you may even prefer the limitations, and that is fine, but being happy with the limitations doesn't negate the fact the plant IS being limited or the veracity of what I said.

    You may not recognize the fact, but I'm used to looking at containerized trees and being able to tell at a glance what condition the roots are in. I've been trained to judge a wide variety of trees in containers, and repotted/root-pruned thousands and thousands, so I know a little about how they grow and what ails them. It's very probable (possible, if preferred) that I can see things in most grower's trees that they don't or can't see themselves, which is the case here. Any reasonable person will accept that as at least a possibility.

    In your quote above, the person you quoted also noted that the tree you're referring to is "SENSITIVE TO SOIL COMPACTION". This tells us that this tree, Aztec Gold, is more apt to exhibit symptoms related to soil compaction and jammed up root conditions than other plumeria, which is probably why I so quickly picked up on the fact your tree exhibits those symptoms. It also suggests that we should avoid soils that tend to compact and use "SOILS WITH VIRTUALLY NO WATER RETENTION", which would w/o question tend to exclude soils comprised of a significant fraction of fine particles - like MG, MGMC, and other soils based on peat, compost, coir, composted forest products, sand ......., and open the door wide to soils like the 5:1:1 mix or gritty mix - if we reduce their water retention to fit the recommendations of your source. Fortunately, those soils are adjustable and can be fine tuned to the degree of water retention a grower wants/needs. ALL of the fine ingredients mentioned above are directly linked to increased water retention in our soils, and according to the quote, should probably be avoided.

    Essentially what I told the forum is, if you want to avoid symptoms associated with your trees being rootbound - don't let them get root bound. Where is the foul and what (exactly) is there in what I said to disagree with or be upset over? In your post above, you attacked me again and twisted some of the facts in an attempt to bolster your case. In legalspeak, that's called poisoning the well so others will avoid it (me), and it's not a tactic someone occupying a strong position uses. Nothing has been said about the substance of what I offered, which is really all anyone should be interested in. I'm trying to stay on track here, deal only with facts, & not lash out; but it's only fair that I point to the gang tactics being used against me for nothing other than personal reasons. I'm human too. There are people I like and people I dislike, but I try hard to keep my emotions from getting the better of reason. It's not always easy, but we all end up better for it.

    Can we move on and maybe give the OP a little breathing room?

    Al

  • beachplant
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BWA-HA-HA! It is just too easy to drive this guy over the edge.

    I totally agree with George, this is a person with NO experience in plumeria, NO experience in citrus yet he is disputing very good advice from very experienced plumeria growers and very experienced citrus growers. He has no experience in heat and humidity, conditions that have very real implications in growing plants.

    I usually avoid any forum where he posts on a regular basis because it is ALWAYS like this, he argues with anyone who doesn`t agree with him spouting generalizations, calling people trolls, tooting his own horn. I`m sure the makers of miracle grow can produce thousands of e-mails extolling the virtues of their products and advice.

    The question posted WAS addressed and very good, sound advice was given by people who grow plumeria and live in the same area.

    Tally HO! who is VERY proud to have been called a troll, grows fantastic plants, is almost ready to harvest several kinds of citrus from her own very well growing trees, saves lives every day, feels little need to toot her own horn, is not a guy, has been gardening for almost 50 years, has no interest in bonsai or hydroponics, looks forward to the plumeria sale in the spring and going to Emersons on Friday to buy some plumeria-NAH NAH BOO BOO you don`t get to go with me, loves heat and humidity and has a yard that looks like a rainforest. Heck, I even understand cell biology, p-glyocprotein transporter substrates, active transport, carrier proteins,trace elements, the Krebbes cycle, passive transfer, calcium gluconate, I can even calculate equivalents in elemental iron from other sources and think in metric.

    Gotta love a person who can argue with his OWN statements!

  • beachplant
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey George,

    do you know Ed up there in your area? Give me a sec to get the brain cell to work, what is his last name? Last time I saw him I got a couple of Jackfruit seedlings from him, Ike killed them all off however. Too bad, the one was 5`. I put in a starfruit last year and it is finally taking off. This year I planted a lychee-Josephs nursery in Pearland-she told me to keep it in a pot for another year and it might be OK here on the island in the ground. So sorry you have that healthy gorgeous Azetc Gold you are settling on. It is one of the best specimens I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot of them including the giant one in Emersons front yard-my niece lives around the corner from him. Probably because you didn`t take that class to id trees at a glance and tell what ails them. Like a mass spectrometer in your eyeballs kind of thing. Do you know he digs that thing up every year and hangs it in his garage with a wench? I wondered how people stored trees that big in the winter. He uses his RV garage.

    K-you might be a troll like me LOL!

    Poisoning the well? Now you`re talking my language! I live and breath poison. This months Clinical toxicology is very intriging, who expects Physalia envenomation in France?
    The 2012 annual meeting of the NACCT abstracts are in this issue, the meeting is in Las Vegas this year. I will be working on a poster for next year, probably on cardiac glycosides in plants. Toxic plants are my particular area of interest being a gardener. As a matter of fact I will be giving a lecture next week on common plant poisonings. Complete with visual aids, toxic plants from my yard and on campus.

    Tally HO!

  • citizen_insane
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,
    with all due respect I am really not attacking you. If I was attacking you will know it, beleive me. I am just trying to make you understand that there are a lot of things you learn by growing plumerias that you should not trash based on generalizations. You contribute some good things about understanding soils and fertilizers. However, you misunderstand a lot of the things being said here due to your luck of experience in growing plumerias. This is my last attempt to explain it to you.

    You totally misinterpreted what Diana said. Here is a picture of an Atzec Gold plumeria I just rooted this March. I started with a very nice 6-tip cutting taken from my old tree, with very nice thick branches. I planted this large cutting in a 5-gallon pot. In just six months look at the growth I got on each tip. The branches are more than two feet each and very skiny in diameter. That just ruined this very nice cutting. Also, compare the size of the leafs on this cutting with the size of the leafs of the tird picture (older pruned plumeria). The leafs on this cutting are very small compared to the pruned plumeria, indicating much slower growth. Yet the cutting grew a lot more than I desired.

    Look at the root system. The roots filled the whole pot and are rolling around. This justed rooted cutting is already root bound!

    As you can see, Atzec Gold plumeria branches and roots grow so fast relative to other plumerias (with the exception of Vera Cruz Rose) that the only way you will grow an Atzec Gold plumeria in a pot is in the root bound state, period. You can prune the roots all you want, within months it will be root bound.

    Now, here is an older Atzec Gold plumeria I pruned this spring. Look at the new growth on it. It is growing by leaps and bounds. Had I not pruned the leafs off to reduce the weight, those branches would be horizontal.

    Picture what these branches would look like had I pruned the roots also when I pruned it in the spring.

    So, as you can see, this plumeria is extremely difficult to keep upright or compact. Here is my next attempt to do it. I am in the process of rooting a very large 9-tip cutting taken from my old tree. I am rooting this in a smaller 3-gallon pot. I plan to leave it in this small pot all of next year with just a little fertilizer in the spring. The idea is to get it extremely root bound to limit its growth to a more reasonable level, so that the new growth at the tips will be slow and the branches will stay thick.

    So, as you can what Diana meant when she said "to bound the roots in a pot" is you must grow Atzec Gold root bound. You just did not understand it because you have no experience with Atzec Gold.

    So Al, please understand that I am not attacking you. You should stick to soils and fertilizers that you know and your contribution is appreciated and stay out of plumeria growing specifics that you do not have experience with. You are influencing a lot of people to misunderstand what is posted here.

    tc pal,
    George

  • citizen_insane
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Beachplant,
    Thank You for the kind words.

    No I do not know Ed.

    With respect to storing large plumerias for the winter, most people do not appreciate how much those branches weigh. The branches on my Atzec Gold weigh more than twice as much as the pot with the soil. Emerson plants his in the soil. I do not know how he lifts it up to move it. You really need a cherry picker to lift it and move it.

    With respect to citrus I grow sour orange seedlings from seeds and I graft various types of citrus on them. A woman I know has this lemon tree that is amazing. It makes a ton of lemons about four to five times as big as store-bought lemons and very juicy. I believe it is a strain of "Eureka" lemon. I cut cuttings and budded about 20 trees. I planted about a dozen in the ground and I gave the woman about four of them. I have a few to spare. If you want one I will bring you one next year at the spring PSA sale.

    tc,
    George

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    C'mon ;-) - First you want to use someone else's words; then, when you discover they're really not all that supportive of your position, you want to reinterpret those words so the all new interpretation DOES support your position - IOW - put your own spin on what someone else's words meant, and then treat it as fact? Why not use exactly what she said, which is what I did. Doesn't that make more sense and aren't her exact words probably exactly what she meant? Please - fault my logic.

    Why not try addressing what I said upthread? Pick it apart line by line. That's the fastest and cleanest way to put me in my place. I'm up for the discussion. Again, all you can provide is continued obfuscation - nothing directly addressing the issue.

    When people have a strong position, they don't feel a need to avoid the issues, put on a condescensive act, or take pot shots from the sidelines. They can address the issues head on and rely on their knowledge, facts, and reason to carry the day. When you see the tactics being used by this small group, you can be sure they have painted themselves into a corner; and since they can't address the issues directly, they choose to shift the focus FROM the issues to something ugly (a version of saving face) - that way it appears that everyone is in the same mire. It's sad and it's childish. Hopefully the rest of the forum doesn't think too ill of me for my part in making this last longer than it had to.

    Al

  • citizen_insane
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Al,
    That's it. You are are really a dum***S. You are on my ignore list.

  • Richard
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wow what happened to this thread lol. Cant we all just get along. Its all good just need to keep the peace. Thanks for all your input guys!

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wally - the fact that you're concerned about your plants during periods of extended rain, MAKES your question a soil-related one. Simply announcing that because plumeria growing in situ are often subject to extended periods of rain there is no cause for concern for your containerized plants when the same occurs is simply wrong. Plumeria occur in monsoonal zones, but they don't occur in monsoonal zones in areas where drainage is inappropriate, and in a container, the issue of drainage becomes even more critical.

    There are ways to increase water retention with minimal negative impact on aeration, and ways to increase water retention that have significant negative impact on aeration. Understanding the concept is the first step in being able to implement it, and no matter how you look at it, an understanding of the concept will serve you well for all your container applications - regardless of where you live.

    I'm going to suggest you keep an open mind on this matter. The strong disagreement is coming from a group that has a history of just that, but I'd like you to decide for yourself what does or doesn't make sense, or have merit based on your perception of your needs.

    Please take a moment to reread my initial post on your thread. If you have any interest in digging deeper into how soils work you should find this helpful. You'll find a large number of replies to the thread that should give you some kind of feeling how the information provided is received and accepted - a bit fairer than what occurred here.

    If you decide that you would rather stick to something from a bag, that's fine too. If you decide that, there are still ways that you can deal with excess water retention if you feel that's a concern. This thread addresses ways to minimize water retention by suggesting ways to help expel perched water from your soils. It is not water retention per se that negatively affects root function, it's perched water and the airless conditions it creates that is of primary concern. The best soils are those that are able to maximize water retention with minimal impact on aeration.

    By and large, soils that need more frequent watering offer your plants greater opportunity to grow as close to their genetic potential as possible, within the limits of other cultural factors. Growing is about balance, and here, the 'balance' is finding that combination of ingredients that gives your plants the aeration they need, while still providing you a watering interval you can live with.

    I'm not here to pressure you or harangue anyone. If you have no interest in the things I just said, that's fine with me. My interest in you is limited to doing my best to provide information you can use to determine your best course. If you have questions that you need answered about anything I said, please feel free. I won't continue to participate on this thread unless you feel I can help you.

    I wish you the best from your growing experience. Take care and please accept my apology for being involved in the ugliness.

    Al

  • Richard
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    no problem tapla I have nothing against you thanks for your input!

  • BubbaTimmy
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wow, my brain hurts now

    luckily plumerias are forgiving enough to accommodate almost every expert.

    this experts method.... put stick in soil watch grow... uggg... stick makum flower... very uggg

  • FTony West
    6 years ago

    I saw that you had post a question about Plumeria and rain.

    Have you had any answers on this?

    What was your conclusion?

    Can Plumeria be potted out in rainy weather?

    Thanks in advance if you have answers to give me please :)

    Tony

  • Trudy Fore
    6 years ago

    I just moved two of mine in the garage because of all the rain. The other two are on my front porch. I am also wondering about all the rain. I am located on the Mississippi Gulf Coast and we are getting a lot of rain from the tropical depression.

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