I KNEW she'd come through for you. {{gwi:10897}} Al

You guys are really so helpful, thank you for the support and direction.

Soon I will need to remove my seedlings from the seed tray and plant them into 1 gal containers. They are sowed in cactus mix + perlite. I can't imagine changing the soil medium on young seedlings to be a smart move (am I wrong?), would it be at all beneficial to plant the existing soil into gritty mix, and then change out when the plant matures? Did I explain that properly? So taking the seedling + soil surrounding roots and plant that in gritty mix.

Laura, two bareroot trees arriving today, I'm gonna pot em up in the nitty gritty and pray for the best! Thanks for the cheerleading!

Thanks (again!),
Wendy

Hi John,

I was very curious about the "Soul Food" Listing that i had to call... Not a good number... LOL..

The second number that i called... BINGO!!!
They carry the Gran-i-grit in "Growers" size and they even carry Turface. I spoke with a gentleman named John E. His store is located at Fredrick And ST John's Lane in Baltimore.

Thought i would pass that along to you!!!

Good Luck!!

Wendy,

Im sure you will do fine with your bare rooted Plumeria. Remember too moisten the roots while working with the trees and give it a good watering when you finish. I would keep it from direct light for a few weeks as well. You want to acclimate your new trees to the new surroundings. I just potted some bare rooted Plumies last week and they seem to be adjusting well. Don't forget that this is a fast draining mix so you will need to keep an eye on them drying out faster than a heavier more moisture retaining soil.

Take care,

Laura

Wendy - you can lift the plants from the seed tray, along with the little clump of soil that clings to the roots, and just plant into the gritty mix. If the gritty mix is properly made, you don't need to worry about over-potting .... you can pot your seedlings in a container as large as you prefer.

Al

Ok friends, big day today, the So. Cal. Plumeria Society cutting sale, wahoo! Spent a lot, not feeling great about that, but very determined to root these suckers.

SO, do I root in gritty mix??????? The folks at the sale were very pro the 'bagging method' so I thought I would bounce the idea off of you. The downside of that idea is I just spent money on gritty ingredients, and they suggest coir and pumice, bother, I don't have that. What do you think?

FYI, just cause I am so excited. I got Guillot Sunset, Veracruz Rose, Penang Peach, confetti & Siam Ruby. Oh, plus a freebie, Housten White.

Anxious to get the ball rolling... plus the hubby is out of town, I gotta get this taken care of by tomorrow afternoon so he doesn't quite know the damage I did. ;o)

Wendy

Hey Wendy!!!

Sounds like you hit the jackpot at the sale today!!!

I am so happy for you to have found all of those beauties!!!

Rooting can be another area that everyone has different approaches. I have even said that i still like to root in "Gritty Mix" also... in the Half Perlite and Half Cactus mix and sometimes i would even go with what some would use..all perlite. Honestly, i just started the Hong Kongs cuttings several weeks ago into the Gritty Mix and they are doing great. I also have others that are in a 1/2 perlite and 1/2 cactus mix. Please dont worry about coir..bagging and or other methods...use what you feel comfortable using. Try the bag method...try the Gritty Mix.. then give us an update on what you like best!!!

This is fun stuff! Get those cuttings soaking for a few hours, then get them ready to pot them up for rooting.

I have some that i will pot up tomorrow. I plan to use Gritty mix and also tke some pictures of taking my bare rooted tree and placing it into Gritty mix so you all can see! I have some little cuttings that are so small that they say usually wont root.. These were casualites from a shipment that i just received.. : ) THANK YOU!!!

I will take pics of these little ones and show you how i am going to try and root these little 2 inch stems..one is four inches and another is about three inches.. I thought this could be interesting.

Get ready Wendy!!!

Have to get busy while DH is away...get them in the pots so he wont notice!!! My DH came home only to see "another" pkg here LOL... Thank goodness he is in bed so i wont have to listen to him say "Dont you have enough?"

Good Luck with what method you choose.. You cant go wrong living in San Diego with those great temps you have!!! : )

Thanks again San..!!! : )

Take care,

Laura

As a side note, I wouldn't include coir as a fraction of my rooting medium, or, as a significant fraction of a growing medium. The reasons are, coir is often high in soluble salts as a result of being processed in ocean/sea water. High salt levels make it difficult for cuttings to take up water - a significant cause of failure. Also, coir always has an extremely high K (potassium) content - high enough to compete with other ions for attachment sites and potentially make it difficult for plants to take up one or more of several other nutrients. Coir is most often used by professional growers as a way to extend peat fractions and is usually limited to less than 10% of the o/a volume of media. Coir and peat bake down at about the same rates, with peat getting the nod for being slightly better, and the water retention curve between peat & coir is almost identical, so it's difficult to make a case for the use of coir over peat in container media, unless it's based on the nonrenewable argument, which doesn't hold up well under scrutiny when you run the numbers.

Al

You guys are just great, thank you. Not only are the plumie's a treat, but I love being part of this forum!

Laura, so I was hasty and bagged two last night, I couldn't resist. I have the others soaking right now, the little man is asleep so I am going to start potting, bagging, etc. While at a nursery a few days ago I saw a large plumie branch that was broken and laying on the ground, they gave it to me for free and it is currently in gritty mix. I chickened out with the bare root trees, they were potted in cactus/perlite. I'd never planted anything with bare roots, I was in a little over my head.

SO excited to see what you put together, what a tremendous resource that will be for all of us addicts!!! I think I will bag root a few more, then maybe another in cactus/perlite and perhaps one final in the gritty mix. It will be a fun experiment, and hopefully I will have good success.

Al, while at the show yesterday a very nice man suggested I dump the FP come June and switch to something with a 0 N level. He said come June you aren't looking to grow the trees, but to bloom them. Your logic/science cannot be argued with on the plants getting basic nutrition from FP, but I am curious about his suggestion and the merit of it. As you pointed out earlier, when all plants needs are met, photosynthesis takes place and the plant produces, I simply don't know enough about NPK to know why eliminating N would boost blooms.

Yikes, I gotta get to potting! (plus I should probably polish the floors and furniture so my DH doesn't get grumpy with all the time I spend on my trees.)

So much to do, so little time.

Happy Easter!
Wendy

I can see what his reasoning is, even if I don't agree with it. I'll explain. First, your plant needs nitrogen (N) to bloom, and since N is mobile in plant tissues, if there isn't a current supply of N entering the plant through the root pathway, the plant will borrow it from other tissues and then likely shed the parts. Most commonly you would see a N deficiency evidenced in the chlorosis and eventual shedding of older leaves as the plant robs them of N to support new foliage, roots, and blooms.

N is an essential element in all living systems, and is needed by all cells. It occurs in the living substance
(protoplasm) of all cells, and is a major component of
protein. It is also a major component of chlorophyll which converts sunlight into plant energy. Since container media, with their low bulk density, aren't very effective at holding on to nutrients, a constant supply of N is more a requirement than a luxury that you can simply deprive the plant of w/o consequence.

Onset of the bloom period occurs as a result of changes in specific wavelengths, intensity, and duration of light. A pigment called phytochrome is the light receptor responsible for helping the tree determine when to bloom. Phytochrome exists in two forms, depending on the wavelength of light absorbed. The change in the ratio of these two forms of phytochrome occurs and can be measured on a daily basis (you can look up photomorphogenesis for a better understanding) and will cause the tree to enter the bloom phase.

Your tree will also make another automatic transition that hinges on the length of the dark period. Around Father's Day (summer solstice), the dark period begins to increase in length. This is a powerful signal, and causes physiological changes in the plant that causes the plant to begin a change from spending it's energy on branch extension and leaf growth to energy storage. Instead of growing branches & leaves, the plant will automatically begin to produce layers of carbohydrate rich cells in roots and cambial tissues. These reserves will be what the tree uses to keep its systems orderly over the winter and to provide the energy for the spring flush. Nitrogen is a very important part of that process as well.

Some of us know that intelligently managing N supplies CAN be an effective tool for increasing the number of blooms & fruit if used correctly. Usually, it entails a reduction in the NPK ratio to 2:1:2, and a grower knowledgeable enough to be able to tell when there is an intentionally induced mild N deficiency. The mechanism by which this works: After the photosynthesizing machinery is in place, a slight reduction in the N supply curtails vegetative growth; but since the photosynthesizing machinery is already in place, energy creation (food making) isn't much affected. Since the plant can't channel the energy into producing vegetative growth, it channels it toward reproduction - blooms & fruit. This isn't something the casual grower can easily manipulate, and withholding N by fertilizing with 0-10-10 is probably going to result in shed foliage and a decrease in energy stored that will impact the tree and blooms in the subsequent growth cycle.

Al

Tapla,
I have some questions which still don't make sense to me. Thanks in advance for the discussion.

Why is an industry, generally speaking, providing a product which is per your argument scientifically proven to be inferior? In other words there has to be a reason or an argument more than just tradition or customer demand in favor of the high P approach. Otherwise results would speak for themselves and every brand of fertilizer would be a 3-1-2 ratio and high P formulas would be going the same way as the newspaper industry.

Maybe P is cheaper than N or K to produce...business is business.

This question may seem dumb...but if gritty mix is so good for plants why would it not work for plants in the ground? I would assume that plants function in the same way if they are in the ground or in a container just like a previous post said a plant in MI functions the same way as one in TX (functions, yes. Conditions the plant is exposed to is totally different and how that impacts this discussion is beyond my scope). So applying that over an in ground plant and a container plant need the same type of water delivery, nutrition delivery and air to the roots.

Something tells me I am still missing a piece of the science behind it. Thanks for your help.

There is a named logical fallacy called 'appeal to common practice' - X is a common practice, therefore X is correct, best, justified ..... etc. Examples of the false reasoning might take a number of forms. I think the fact that there are so many alcohol, tobacco, fast/processed food products ..... available as poor choices, seriously calls into question the supposition or even the hint that because high-P fertilizers are available, that they must necessarily be considered prudent choices. Our moms armed us against this type of reasoning by asking if Suzy or Tommy jumped off a bridge, would you do it too. Sometimes we even use this reasoning fallacy to justify something we know to be wrong - "Yeah, I know some people say that cheating on our taxes is wrong. But we all know that everyone does it, so it's okay."

The reason for the existence of high-P fertilizers probably lies in the fact that most hobby growers lack the knowledge required to make an informed decision about what fertilizer is most appropriate, or they fall prey to either advertising hype or anecdotal evidence offered by others who have. I think that if we accept the fact that plants use much more N than P, the burden of proof falls on the shoulders of proponents of fertilizers that in some cases provide as much as 5X more P than N. The cycle is self-perpetuating. Fertilizer company A grabs a market share with a high-P fertilizer. Not to be outdone by A, company B follows suit, with each making increasingly promising claims that science doesn't support. Obviously, I'd be happy to discuss the use of high-P fertilizers for container culture with anyone who wants to make other than an anecdotal case.

FWIW - I had a conversation not long ago with Dave Neal, the CEO of Dyna-Gro Nutrition Solutions, and he is in complete agreement with the high-P overview. His take is that almost all container growers would be better served using 9-3-6 [or other 3:1:2 ratio fertilizers] for containerized plants.

You can find more complete information on strategies for fertilizing containerized plants by following the embedded link. I also posted a thread called "How Much P is Enough?" a few years ago, but I can't find it via the site search function & it's in a file that's temporarily unavailable. In it, I address the origins of the need for high-P fertilizers - when bedding plants were started in cold soil (inhibits P uptake) in cold frames. I'll try to remember to work on making that available, but only if you're interested.

"..... if gritty mix is so good for plants why would it not work for plants in the ground?" Growing in containers and growing in the ground are two distinctly different types of cultures and require equally different approaches if we aspire to something greater than mediocrity. On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being growing in the garden/earth and 10 being full hydroponics, container culture is about a 7 or 8. MUCH of what works well in the garden should be abandoned there in favor of methods better suited to container culture.

The gritty mix won't work well in the ground (unless you fertigate very often) because the earth works as a giant wick and 'pulls' moisture from the soil. Using garden soil/topsoil in containers finds you dealing with the opposite problem - excessive water retention that literally suffocates roots, and at a minimum, impairs their function. The IDEAL container soil is one that holds ample volumes of water without that saturated layer of soil at the bottom of the pot that is inherent in all soils comprised of fine particles. There is no avoiding the relationship between the ht of the perched water table and particle size. Perched water kills roots, and the finer the particles comprising a soil, the greater the ht of the perched water table. The gritty mix is specifically designed to be adjustable for water retention by varying the ratio of ingredients, and to eliminate any significant volume of perched water. This provides a root-friendly environment from to top of the container to the bottom, even immediately after the soil has been completely saturated - something unattainable with soils based on peat/compost/coir or any combination of small particles - all based on science and not wishful thinking.

"Growing I would assume that plants function in the same way if they are in the ground or in a container just like a previous post said a plant in MI functions the same way as one in TX (functions, yes. Conditions the plant is exposed to is totally different and how that impacts this discussion is beyond my scope). So applying that over an in ground plant and a container plant need the same type of water delivery, nutrition delivery and air to the roots." I'm not sure what you're asking or implying. A Plumeria functions the same way in MI as CA or TX, and it prefers the same conditions, no matter its local. It is the grower that needs to be adaptive or more attentive in situations where the plants water needs are greater. The more perched water a soil holds, and the longer it retains it, the greater the negative impact on the plant. While it may not be practical for most of us to water a plant twice per day to stave off drought stress, the fact is that it's healthier to use a soil that requires the more frequent watering than it is to use a soil that offers the convenience of greater water retention at the expense of root health. If such wasn't the case, we could all pot our plants in pudding and water every 2-3 weeks.

There is no judgment made when someone says I can only find the time to water every 4-6 days, so I MUST use something water retentive like Miracle-Gro; but the fact remains that the price of that convenience is suppressed root function the plant must deal with until the water in the saturated fraction of the water is used by the plant or evaporates.

There is no getting around the fact that the health of the organism is dependant on root health, and w/o a healthy root environment, plants' potential will always be limited. The soil is the foundation of every conventional container planting. You can choose a foundation fraught with inherent problems and fight against it for the life of the planting, or you can chose a solid foundation that works for you and allows you to build strong plantings in it. Other than the fact that I generally really like plant people and enjoy seeing them successful, it doesn't matter to me what anyone chooses.

I enjoy supplying the information people need to make informed choices, and I always feel gratified when I see people using that info and making choices that will improve their effort:reward quotient. If you use the site-wide search function and enter the words Al question, you'll find about 6,750 hits, most of which are people starting threads specifically to ask me questions. I think that level of credibility comes from being very sure about what I DO share, and very judicious about what I don't share. IOW, if there is any doubt in my mind that I'm not on solid ground and certain my offering can be backed with sound science, I just don't say anything. I'm not bashful about presenting facts as facts, and I'll always let you know if something is an educated guess or conjecture instead of risking credibility by presenting it as fact.

Good luck & good growing!

Al

Tapla,
No implications here. My questions were for learning purposes. That's great there are that many posts about it. Tone doesn't convey well in text. Sorry if this was perceived as some sort of challenge. I just wanted to learn.

.... and in the same vein, I wasn't inferring that if there was an implication that it was anything other than straight forward, so all's well. Challenges are good, too. If people disagree on points of fact, there is much to be learned from any ensuing discussion as they support their positions.

Hopefully, what I offered provided additional clarity.

Take care.

Al

From what I've understood so far your grity mix is 5 parts fir bark, 1 part Truface, and 1 part crushed granite. Is this correct and is this the correct ratio for plumeria? I'm located in Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688. Where would I be able to find all the ingredients?

~Jen

Gritty mix =

1 part screened Turface MVP or Allsport
1 part Gran-I-Grit in grower size, #2 cherrystone, or equal
1 part pine or fir bark screened to 1/8-1/4"

The Turface should be easy in SoCal (try any Ewing Irrigation outlet). The grit and bark may take some sleuthing on your part, unless someone comes up with some advice. There are whole threads over on the container gardening forum dedicated to finding & helping others find ingredients, so you might also check there. LOTs of Ca growers use it, so I know they're getting the materials somewhere.

The 5:1:1 mix is also a free-draining, well aerated soil. Use:

5 parts pine bark of appropriate size
1 part perlite
1 part peat (sphagnum peat moss)
1 tbsp dolomitic (garden) lime /gallon of mix

Al

Jen, the turface is easy, just as Al said, Ewing irrigation sells a 50lb bag for $12.60. I found Orchid Bark easily enough at Green Thumb Nursery, just be sure to get the 'Fine' size.

Grit was another story all together. What finally did the trick was googling 'chicken feed store' and I finally found Manna Pro Chicken Grit. If you are like me, I had absolutely no idea what grit was. So I was calling feed stores and being told sure they had grit, what kind did I need. When I wasn't totally sure they were usually not nice. Ask for a non-soluable grit, 100% granite. Manna pro lists on its website where they distribute, but call ahead as the list is not at all accurate. It isn't cheap, btw, and be advised a 5lb bag is small! Splurge and get the big bag, or you'll end up like me with a giant back of turface, giant bag of Fir Fines and a tiny little bag o' grit.

Lol, never thought this girl would own grit, heehe.

Now a Q for my grit users: This is a dumb q, but when you are screening the fir and turface, do you want what is screened out, ie the small stuff? From Al's post a few up, I am guessing you toss the small parts that are screened out...right? Remind me the size of the screen, still need to get that. I have one cutting planted in the mix without screening. Doh! :o/ I get a little hasty, not gonna lie.

Usually, you can make the gritty mix using only one screen, IF you can find the appropriate size bark. What I use for bark is prescreened fir bark in 1/8-1/4". The grit (I use #2 cherrystone) is also prescreened, but I screen it over insect screen to eliminate the dist. I do the same thing with the bark. The Turface MVP NEEDS to be screened over insect screen if you want the best results. The fact that the gritty mix is so well aerated and holds virtually no perched water when made correctly are 2 of its most significant attributes, along with its durability/longevity. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to go through the effort to make it if you're going to leave the fines in it, because they decrease aeration and support perched water, voiding 2 of the 3 most significant advantages.

What I screen with:
{{gwi:3443}}
{{gwi:5884}}

If you can't find prescreened bark, you should probably plan on screening pine or fir bark, using what does pass a 3/8 or 1/2 screen & isn't retained above a 1/8" screen.

Al

Hi Jen & Wendy,

I use a kitchen strainer to screen the fines from my Turface and Granite. If you want a pic, i placed one on the thread that i posted on cuttings...look at the containers ready to pot in Gritty Mix annd you will see the strainer. If you would like other pics of my strainers i have different ones. let me know..!!!

Take care,

Laura

Here is a link that might be useful: Taking A Bare Rooted Tree and Potting Into The Gritty Mix

Well went out at lunch today to find the ingredients. Found the pine bark pretty easily but it's not all uniform size so I'll have to screen it.

The crushed granite wasn't too hard to find when you look for it as chicken grit. Called a couple of places that had only oyster grit. Found one that had granite but it was not cheap. I paid $10 per 5 pound bag. I would say it's about a half gallon size per 5 pound bag.

The Turface wasn't quite as easy. I went to John Deere and they didn't have any in stock. There was a store about an hour away that has some in stock but it was $22.50 per 50 pound bag. I went down the street to Napa auto parts and they had the Oil Absorbent part number 8822 for $7.99 for a 24 quart bag. I grabbed a bag of that so hopefully it works just as well as the Turface.

Just to follow up I wasn't terribly happy with paying $10 per 5 pound bag of chicken grit so I did some more searching. I found the Tractor Supply Company that's about 20 minutes from my house sells a 25 pound back of the exact same chicken grit (Manna Pro) for $10. So same price and 5x the amount of material. I feel much better now.

I just bought 700 lbs of #2 cherrystone in 50 lb bags for $74.20. THEN, I discovered I still had 6 - 50 lb bags I didn't know I had, hiding behind a stack of fir bark. Sigh!

Al

Jimithing, good work! I'll have to give that route a go.

Al....... OUCH. At any rate, look at it as an investment for the future, lol.

Wendy

Hey Jimithing,

I also found that the price varies from store to store.. I was paying $20 for a 50lb bag of Gran-i-girt and then found it at another Southern Staes store in the next city. They wanted $7.99 for a 50lb bag. I still pay $20 for the Turface, but i am keeping my eye out for another source..

Sounds like you have all of your ingredients together!!

AL,

Sounds like you have been busy with all of that Cherrystone. Ouch is right about lifting all of that weight!!! Be careful with that back!! : ) i know mine hurts even when i lift a few 50 lb bags.. Couldn't imagine lifting 700 lbs.. Ohhhh MYY!!!

So that will last you one season?

Hope all is well up north!!! : )

Take care,

Laura

Bump : )

This is for the nice lady that emailed me yesterday... the information for the Gritty mix its located close to the end of this thread.. Thought you would enjoy reading it..

I don't live in CA... I live in Virginia Beach..others have found these products in Florida. I will help you if you need it.

Ill be in touch!!! : )

Thank you!!

Laura

I've printed all this out to study and hopefully graduate to the gritty mix one day :) But I DID already get some Foliage Pro, so that's a start! Thanks so much for taking the time to post all of this amazing info.

Finally got my screens made on Monday and made some gritty mix. Overall I think it turned out rather well. I put two new rooted plumeria cuttings I got into it. I also put a Meyer lemon tree I had just purchased into it. Hopefully it'll do well. I staked all of them because the mix doesn't pack in around the roots. I know that's the whole purpose of it but the plants didn't feel secure by themselves. I'm sure once their roots establish a little they'll feel more secure.

Another question for Al or other knowledgeable container growers - is there any danger in planting into a pot that's much too large for your plant? I planted the Meyer lemon into a pot that is definitely too big for it's current size. In all honestly I'm trying to avoid having to re-pot it next year. The pot I put it in is as large as I ever want to put it in and I'll prune it to keep it under control. Just wondering if you can ever have too much too soon. TIA.

There is a sliding scale that measures the danger associated with over-potting. The more perched water your soil holds, the greater the odds that your plants health (vitality) and growth will be affected. You might not realize it, but container shape also has a lot to do with determining whether or not a plant will suffer the effects of being over-potted.

If you're using a gritty mix that was properly screened, the danger of over-potting is virtually nonexistent. You can plant very small cuttings in huge volumes of soil, if you wish, with no ill consequences because the gritty mix just doesn't remain saturated. The soil organisms that cause root rot thrive in the airless, saturated conditions inherent in soils based on fine particulates (peat, compost, coir, topsoil .......). The gritty mix remains well-oxygenated at all times, and provides relief from the harmful gases (sulfurous compounds, methane, CO2) that build up and remain trapped in heavier soils.

In a nutshell - you don't have to worry much about over-potting in the gritty mix, very little concern with the 5:1:1 mix, but the danger increases in direct proportion to the reduction in particle size and accompanying increase in water retention.

Al

Bump!! : )

I have had others asking..so here it is!!!

Hope this helps!!

Laura

BUMP

Bump....this is for everyone who has emailed me about the Gritty Mix... Hope this helps...

I will say that AL has been so gracious with helping everyone here on the Plumeria forum. He has so many other forums that want his full attention.. i am pleased that he takes his time to help out whenever someone has a question... Thank you AL for helping out all of my friends that are interested in your methods. You are awesome!! : )

I have learned so much from you and i can only hope that i can help pass on some of the knowledge that you have taught to me as well as others here. So a big Thank YOU!!! : )

I am truly greatful to call you friend...

Laura

Words so kind I'm not sure what to say, other than thank you very much. I'm touched, Laura. You're no stranger to being helpful, generous, and to going out of your way to help others, either. From my reading and seeing your interaction with the group here, I can see why you're so highly thought of.

Thanks again. You made my day. ;-)

YPA

Hi, Al,

Thank you for all the great info on the 5:1:1 and gritty mix and fertilizer and PWT. Sooo useful.

I have managed to find Floor Dry, chicken grit and fir bark which thanks to my old Cuisinart food processor (It was cheaper to buy a new one on special than pay shipping on a new lid!) I have chopped up bark rubbed through a 3/8 screen. I batched up 5 part bark, 1 part FloorDry, 1part perlite and 5 Tbsp of prilled lime (1T/gal of bark) and am waiting the two weeks for the lime to react before planting my potted Japanese maples in the pots. I also incorporated about 5 T of Gaia 4-4-4 organic fert (bone meal, blood meal, alfalfa meal, humane, rock phosphate, greensand, sulphate of potash, kelp meal and gypsum).

After reading more in the various threads I left the Gaia out of my next batch.

Questions:

Why do you add the lime to the 5:1:1 and not the 1:1:1 gritty mix? Will it hurt the gritty mix? I have added it to the screened (1/8" and 3/8")bark that I am assembling for a future gritty mix.

Do you have an environmental indicator to let you know when it is too late in the spring to bare root pot into the gritty mix? Snow crocuses blooming, silver maples blooming? I live in the mountains in the interior of BC, lots of snow cover but relatively mild for Canada (-29C (-20--10F). Reliable hot (85F) dry (some rain) summers.

Do you leave some of your potted trees outside in winter in central Michigan? With or without protection? I have three nice shallow (6" x 21" x 14') mica/polyethylene/graphite pots that provide some insulation from heat and cold temps. The tricky part is this time of year with big swings in temps, can be quite hot one day and snowing the next.

Do you know how long the Foliage Pro is viable for once opened? Six months? A year? More?

What do you do with the fines form the sifted FloorDry? I have a gallon of it and I have only made three batches. I also have a couple of gallons of really fine bark (like peat) as a result of the food processor thing. I was thinking of mixing that with perlite or grit a a seed starting medium.

Would you fertilize the 5:1:1 mix weekly weakly (1/4 tsp/gal water) with Foliage Pro? I plan to use the wooden skewer to monitor moisture.

Thank you for all your help and your threads.

Why do you add the lime to the 5:1:1 and not the 1:1:1 gritty mix? Will it hurt the gritty mix? The 5:1:1 mix has a lower starting pH and more organic material to buffer change in pH. Adding lime to the gritty mix (or to soils with significant fractions of coir or CHCs) would raise the pH to unfavorable levels. Because of this, it's better to use gypsum (CaSO4) as a Ca source and Epsom salts (MgSO4) as a source of Mg because they have no significant effect on pH. These supplements aren't necessary if you use a fertilizer that contains Ca & Mg, which is one of the main reasons I switched to Foliage-Pro 9-3-6. It has both in soluble form and in a favorable ratio to each other, so using it saves a couple of extra steps.

Do you have an environmental indicator to let you know when it is too late in the spring to bare root pot into the gritty mix? Most temperate perennial material is best repotted just before bud movement in spring (pot up any time). Your maples are best repotted at the onset of budswell and maybe just a little beyond - up to the point where some leaves are just beginning to emerge.

Do you leave some of your potted trees outside in winter in central Michigan? With or without protection? I have three nice shallow (6" x 21" x 14') mica/polyethylene/graphite pots that provide some insulation from heat and cold temps. I leave a few trees outside - some larch, pine, juniper, amur maple ..... stuff hardy to zone 4, for my area (6a). 'Protection' needs some clarification. I keep them protected from sun and harsh winds. They rest on a growing bench against the north side of my garage. The polyethylene planks I use have holes in them, so geothermal heat rises and keeps the pots about as warm as if they were setting on the ground. This makes a significant difference in buffering actual lows when it comes to the temperature of the root/soil mass. An insulated pot does nothing to protect from actual low root temperatures. They just increase the time it takes for the soil to change temperature, not how low the temperature gets, which is the critical factor. If you put a Dixie cup of waster in a chest freezer, it might freeze solid in an hour. If you put it inside of a well-insulated cooler, it might not freeze until the next day, but eventually the measure of the actual lows the frozen water gets to will be the same. For an insulated container to work, heat from an extraneous source (the floor, a wall) must be able to act on the soil/root mass, and the insulation needs to trap the heat. If you were trap[ping heat from a garage floor, you would want the sides to be insulated, but not the bottom of the container. A cardboard box overturned and covering a plant so the bottom is open will allow you to keep plants hardy only to several zones warmer than you on your garage floor for the whole winter.

Once my trees start to put on their spring flush, they go on nursery wagons. They are moved in and out every day as temps allow. More on that if you want to talk about it, but it's an issue critical to the trees future appearance, unless you act to rectify internode length issues through judicial pruning.

Do you know how long the Foliage Pro is viable for once opened? Six months? A year? More? It can't spoil, so it should be usable indefinitely.

What do you do with the fines form the sifted FloorDry? Fines either get added to raised beds or are used in hypertufa projects in place of sand. It works great - makes the projects stronger, lighter, and more gas permeable.

Would you fertilize the 5:1:1 mix weekly weakly (1/4 tsp/gal water) with Foliage Pro? Because 3/4 of my plants are dormant all winter, I can afford the time to fertilize every time I water. This is extremely effective if your soil choice and watering habits allow it. In summer, I have to make the watering rounds of more than 300 plantings daily, so fertilizing every time I water isn't feasible, so I try to do it every weekend if temperatures indicate that is appropriate. I generally withhold fertilizers when temps are below 55* or above the low 80s.

Take care .... and thanks for the kind words!

Al

I must read the whole post again...

Great information.. For everyone!! We all learn from these old post and they help others who have never seen them and have some of the same question...

If you haven't read this whole post, I would advise that you do!

Makes sense to me and I always find something that I have missed along the way. ;-)

Thanks again Al!

Laura

Hi, Al,

Thank you so much for answering my questions so promptly and thoroughly.

Should I rinse the lime out of the screened bark I am assembling for the gritty mix? So far I have only about 4 gallons.

I have been digging some fir bark into my garden beds over the past few years to provide some organic matter and aeration. This before I came upon your excellent and informative threads. I didn't know about adding lime to bark beforehand. Am I in deep trouble in the beds? Can I do anything to ameliorate the situation?

I usually keep my potted trees and hydrangeas over the winter in my unheated garage along with my potted tulips and lilies (thwarting the squirrels/mice/critters). One half of the garage (my potting shed) is separated by a wall and has its own door so temps don't fluctuate when garage door opened. I make sure the pots are well watered before I put them in the shed in October and check on them in March/April. The temperature inside can go down to -16C but gradually and warms up slowly in the spring. I can avoid the big swings in spring temps. I usually bring out the maples when I see the in ground ones starting to show signs of bud break.

My problem is room. I have a dark enclosed storage space under the front porch that would accommodate a 4 foot high pot & tree combo. The floor is concrete and if I put the pots against the house wall and covered the exposed sides with bags of leaves or sawdust what do you think? I think it would be colder than the potting shed but it would be out of the wind and sun.

I had assumed (wrongly?) that the perlite/granite and the Turface/FloorDry were inert and the lime was reacting only with the bark.

In the 5:1:1 mix can I skip the sphagnum moss and add the finely ground bark instead? Or just leave the moss out and rely on the fines from the 3/8" screened bark?

I'm on the hunt for coarse perlite. The stuff available is very fine with a lot of dust. It is lighter than the granite which makes a big container very heavy. Does the angular surface area of the granite provide more surface area than the rounder Perlite?

A hundred thank yous for figuring out the optimum fertilizer numbers for us.

Barb

Should I rinse the lime out of the screened bark I am assembling for the gritty mix? So far I have only about 4 gallons. First, thanks for the kind comments. If it's not a hardship, I'd use the bark you already limed as an addition to the 5:1:1 mix or somewhere else. If that's a problem, rinsing it thoroughly will help, but since dolomite is only very slightly soluble, there will be a residual fraction, though I doubt it will present a problem if you at least try to flush it out. If you notice any chlorosis as a result of a pH that might be a little north of Ideal, you can just add a little white vinegar to your irrigation water for those plants in the limed bark ..... but as noted, I wouldn't anticipate a problem.

I have been digging some fir bark into my garden beds over the past few years to provide some organic matter and aeration. This before I came upon your excellent and informative threads. I didn't know about adding lime to bark beforehand. Am I in deep trouble in the beds? Can I do anything to ameliorate the situation? I don't think any action is necessary. The buffering capacity of the soil is very significantly greater than the bark and small amount of lime you're adding, so unless your soil (in the beds) is already very basic, there shouldn't be any problem.

I usually keep my potted trees and hydrangeas over the winter in my unheated garage along with my potted tulips and lilies (thwarting the squirrels/mice/critters). One half of the garage (my potting shed) is separated by a wall and has its own door so temps don't fluctuate when garage door opened. I make sure the pots are well watered before I put them in the shed in October and check on them in March/April. The temperature inside can go down to -16C but gradually and warms up slowly in the spring. I can avoid the big swings in spring temps. I usually bring out the maples when I see the in ground ones starting to show signs of bud break. That's a great strategy. I bemoan the warm temps in my garage where my stuff over-winters, every year. I wish I had a large pit, like many of my bonsai friends, where I could keep things quiescent longer - so I don't have to move the early risers in and out of the garage as temps allow - after they put on their spring flush.

My problem is room. I have a dark enclosed storage space under the front porch that would accommodate a 4 foot high pot & tree combo. The floor is concrete and if I put the pots against the house wall and covered the exposed sides with bags of leaves or sawdust what do you think? I think it would be colder than the potting shed but it would be out of the wind and sun. Sounds good. The only concerns are root temps that react killing lows and dessication (soil/roots). You might find that any elaborate insulating efforts are unnecessary - depending on where you live & the plant material.

I had assumed (wrongly?) that the perlite/granite and the Turface/FloorDry were inert and the lime was reacting only with the bark. Technically that's correct, but the dolomite is a source of Ca/Mg, as well as being a pH adjuster, so it's a part of the chemical composition of the soil as a whole.

In the 5:1:1 mix can I skip the sphagnum moss and add the finely ground bark instead? Or just leave the moss out and rely on the fines from the 3/8" screened bark? I look as soils as a compromise. In general, the more often you have to water, the greater the potential for healthy roots - as long as you're willing to keep up with the watering. You could grow perfectly healthy plants in a bucket of broken glass, if you wanted to water 5 times each day. Some growers are simply not willing to admit that the fact they can't or won't water more frequently has an impact on their plants' potential. We admit that not eating right or exercising has an impact on our potential, but somehow it's difficult to admit that plantings that go a week between waterings with no trouble are limiting our plants. They do - period. There is no way you can partially inhibit oxygen to a large fraction of the root mass and not affect growth and vitality. What the grower needs to find is the right balance between how often they are willing to water, and how much potential they are willing to give up. Personally, I look at the size of the plant and repot it into a pot that I will need to water daily or every other day when the planting is mature. You'll learn how much peat you do or don't have to add based on a visual assessment and by feeling the texture of the soil after the first year. After that, you'll be able to make soil like your grandmother baked bread - by feel and based on your experience. When you start with a large fraction of chunky material, it's a lot more difficult to go wrong. Conversely, when you start with a large fraction of fine material as the base of your soil, it's going to have water retention issues. Even though there are ways to ameliorate those issues using tricks like wicks & tilting the containers, they don't change the reduced aeration inherent in soils based on fine particulates.

I'm on the hunt for coarse perlite. Try a hydroponics store or greenhouse operations that make their own soils - but ask early because they might need to order it for you. The stuff available is very fine with a lot of dust. It is lighter than the granite which makes a big container very heavy. Does the angular surface area of the granite provide more surface area than the rounder Perlite? No - the perlite has more surface area on a size for size basis, and holds a considerably more water (on its surface). If you use the perlite as a substitute for granite, you need to use more perlite ands less Turface to get the same amount of water retention. Something like 4 Perlite, 3 bark, and 2 Turface, would be about right.

A hundred thank yous for figuring out the optimum fertilizer numbers for us. You're welcome. This is a chart of the
average usage of each element plants take from the soil.

I gave Nitrogen, because it's the largest nutrient component, the value of 100. Other nutrients are listed as a weight percentage of N.
N 100
P 13-19 (16) 1/6
K 45-80 (62) 3/5
S 6-9 (8) 1/12
Mg 5-15 (10) 1/10
Ca 5-15 (10) 1/10
Fe 0.7
Mn 0.4
B(oron) 0.2
Zn 0.06
Cu 0.03
Cl 0.03
Mo(lybdenum) 0.003

To read it, look at P. The chart tells you that plants use 16-19 parts of P for every 100 parts of N, for an average of 16 parts, which is 1/6 the amount of N the plant will use.

Professionals base their supplementation program on these numbers, but tailored to a specific plant. However, the variance in usage from plant to plant varies little, as you can see from the chart, so thinking plant A or plant B somehow uses nutrients in a ratio that varies widely from other plants is well wide of the mark. If growers wish to increase the number of blooms a plant will produce, they usually reduce the amount of N, which curtails vegetative growth and forces the plant to put more energy into reproductive growth - flowers & fruit. They don't start providing massive amounts of P, because they know what problems are associated with that approach.

Plants are very remarkably alike in how they wish to be treated, and the sweet spot isn't hard to find. Snapdragons, sequoias, and sedum, can thrive equally well with exactly the same treatment. Most of the trouble and limitations surface when we're thinking what we're doing is a good idea, when actually we're asking our plants to thrive while providing cultural conditions that put them at the limits of what they are programmed to tolerate. Plants should thrive because of what we do for them, not survive in spite of what we do to them. ;-)

Al

This post was edited by tapla on Tue, Mar 26, 13 at 14:58

Hi, Al,

Thanks for the tip about coarse perlite. I have been crouched over a trug screening bark for the past week. I may never walk upright again but will be ready in two weeks to swing into potting action.

I am interested in learning more about how the shape of the container affects the root development. I have all sorts of shapes and sizes. Love the names - cilindro bordato, vasum, etc. And then there are the Chinese ones...

I know I am not the type to happily water every day so I will be looking to find the happy medium for me and the plants. I have only ever fertilized by containers with controlled release 10.10.10 which, come to think of it, is temperature sensitive. Foliage Pro will be a new thing for me. Never considered that you should not fertilize at temps over 80-85. During the summer, we get 85-95 temps but dropping to 50 at night. Would the FP work when the temps drop in the evening? Or is it best to skip the FP during the hot spells (July and August) and rely on CRF's? Always questions.

I'd also like to learn more about overwintering strategies for potted trees. I will experiment with the tulips under the front porch and keep the trees (more valuable to me) in the shed.

Lovely healthy plumerias, Laura. Such pretty flowers. I've never seen one in person.

Thank you again,

Great forum, and great information.

Barb

Would the FP work when the temps drop in the evening? Or is it best to skip the FP during the hot spells (July and August) and rely on CRF's?

What you want to avoid is furnishing ammoniacal forms of N (including urea) when the average soil temperature is below 60*. When plants take up N, they often absorb more than they need to support current growth. The extra nitrogen is stored as a guard against potential N inadequacies later. N in the form of Nitrate can be safely stored by the plant, but when plants take up and store too much ammonium, it can cause damage to cells.

Ammonium toxicity occurs when ammonium has built up to excessive levels in the soil and plants absorb too much of it. Under normal growing conditions of warm temperatures and a well-aerated soil, forms of ammoniacal nitrogen are converted to nitrate by nitrifiers (a variety of naturally occurring bacteria). In this case there is little worry about excess ammonium building up in the substrate unless the grower supplies very excessive amounts of a high ammoniacal fertilizer.

Certain growing conditions, however, such as low temperatures (less than 60* average daily temperature), soggy or compacted (low oxygen) soils, and low media pH will suppress the function of nitrifying bacteria and cause ammonium to build up to toxic levels in the soil. That is to say, under cool, wet conditions ammonium toxicity has the highest likelihood of occurring.

Over-wintering trees safely sort of depends on where you live. Are you talking specifically about plumeria or a variety of woody material?

Al

Al? I started a posting regarding the use of fertilizers with a 10-52-10 and you completed your full dissertation on the use and type of fertilizer that should be used. I would guess that the majority of plumeria enthusiasts on here would like just a lamens explanation to our questions as I would guess. I will always use my self applied theory of (KISS) which I guess we really all use anyway right. By the way KISS (keep it simple stupid) no disrespect to all of us (plumeria addicts) right.

No disrespect to anyone. I'm not trying to change your mind - just give others the information they need to make their own informed decisions. The hype and often misrepresentations on every box/bottle/jug of fertilizer can't all be right, because they all make outlandish and conflicting claims in their effort to make our $ their $. There is truth in science, and that's where I go for my answers. I always hope that others will follow that path if I lay out reasoning sound enough; that, because I truly wish to see other growers get as much from the growing experience as they can - but if they chose to follow another path, that's fine, too.

Using a fertilizer that supplies nutrients in a ratio that closely approximates the ratio at which the plant actually USES the nutrients is certainly no more complicated than using a fertilizer with a ratio that's badly skewed, so the former easily passes the KISS test. Keeping it simple doesn't have to mean that we blindly select a fertilizer based on anecdote or the hype provided by the fertilizer's manufacturer, and then promote or justify our choice because we feel it works well enough to suit ourselves.

As growers, our proficiency is defined by how effectively we are able to isolate and eliminate those factors that have the capacity to limit our plants' ability to grow to their full genetic potential. Only for those who care, I explained in detail and made my case for why high-P fertilizers are unnecessary for containerized plants, and how/why they have the potential to limit plants. I can only hope growers think my response is well-reasoned and scientifically sound because I work hard toward that end.

Take care - good growing.

Al

Great thread. I like it too!

Thanks Al. You do a great job even when others are somewhat overwhelmed. It is what you want to take from this and if you don't want to apply. Then continue with what you like. That is simple!!! ;-)

I have learned so much form you and I can't thank you enough.

Glad to call you a good friend !!! Thank you!!

Laura

Great thread. I like it too!

Thanks Al. You do a great job even when others are somewhat overwhelmed. It is what you want to take from this and if you don't want to apply. Then continue with what you like. That is simple!!! ;-)

I have learned so much form you and I can't thank you enough.

Glad to call you a good friend !!! Thank you!!

Laura

Incredibly elaborated & very instructive discussion on a subject on which I clearly need constant enlightment.

Al, thank you very much for sharing your knowledge & experience. Your way to approach the growing experience is really inspiring. I already did my very first 5.1.1 mix, a great experience. It felt like I was doing the right thing for my trees.

The group overall is really great, people from so many different places coming together by their passion for plants:)

I'm planning the 2017 spring bare-root up/repoting of all my plumerias and I plan having them all going into the GMX medium. Could you please help mewith some questions?

1) Turface = is unheard of here in Belgium/Brussels area. Can I replace turface with pumice at equal proportions? What do you think about mixing Pumice 4 + Bark 3 + Granite 2?

2) Crushed granite = also hard to find with the size required by the GMX. If I replace the granite with perlite the ingredient distribution in the GMX should also change? What do you think about mixing Pumice 4 + Bark 3 + Perlite 4?

3) Is the volcanic lava (3 mm size) a good replacement for the crushed granite in equal proportions?

Thank you very much for your time.

Regards,

Michael

While I would defer to Tapla for precise instructions it is my understanding you should look at the porosity of each material to see if you can use to replace or substitute.

Example: crushed granite and perlite are non porous whilst Turface is highly porous and pumice and lava rock are less.

Thanks very much for bringing this thread up to the top Michael. I'm new to plumerias since last spring and there is a such a plethora of information here. I've read a lot here about gritty mix but never the science from Al himself.

Nancy

Thanks for the kind words, Michael. You might look around to see if you have a product called Seramis. It's a suitable substitute for Turface MVP and available in many parts of Europe.

Assuming all the sizes are appropriate:

1) Looks like it should be fine.

2) I don't think you'll want that much perlite - maybe 2 parts would be better.

3) It depends on what you end up mixing it with and how porous the lava stone is (it varies widely). If using Turface and bark at 1:1, you'd probably want 2 parts of lava stone. If mixing it with pumice & bark, 1:1:1 will probably be good.

For Petuniafish

Al

Thank you so much for looking into this Al:) Much appreciated:)

It brings more clarity on how to have the GMX done in a way that maintains its intrinsic properties and with materials available in my region. I guess I'm in that "compromise" moment and I do care about my plants:)

Thank you also for the substitute for Turface. I have indeed identified last night this product named "Axis Ceramic Calcined Clay" produced by EP minerals. Already asked them to get me in touch with a local supplier. Also asked a friend doing business in industrial roof insulation to ask around:)

"[...]AxisDE® diatomaceous earth products and Axis Ceramic® clay products are premium soil amendments designed to reduce water usage, improve drainage, reduce soil compaction and improve plant health.[...]" Axis Ceramic

It really looks promissing.

The lava stone I can find here is "pouzzolane" 4-7 mm grade, sharp edges, probably entangling easily with the roots, hope it will blend well with the pumice & bark.

Thank you once more:)

Best,

Michael

4-7mm is very large.

Al

Thank you Al :) I could spend a few days breaking the lava down to the required size...I will go for perlite.

If all my inquiries around for Turface & grit go unaswered until spring, I will go for 4 pumice + 3 reptibark + 2 perlite mix and start "collecting" the ingredients. Never believed it could be such a pain sourcing these ingredients in the middle of Europe:) Feel like an alchemist:)

I plant to bare-root up pot the plumeria trees (most of them rooted this year in spring) from a 5 L container (1.3 GAL) to a 11 L container (2.9 GAL), I hope the jump in container volume will be good for the trees.

Thank you once more. Regards,

Michael